Andrew Sullivan and the Palin smear
Monday September 1, 2008
Categories: Republicans
I'm honestly shocked, appalled and really disappointed that even after the new photo of Sarah Palin has surfaced, and even after the news about Bristol Palin's pregnancy has surfaced, Andrew Sullivan continues to puff the disgusting rumor about Trig Palin's...
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About Crunchy Con
Rod Dreher is an editorial columnist for the Dallas Morning News, and author of "Crunchy Cons" (Crown Forum), a nonfiction book about conservatives, most of them religious, whose faith and political convictions sometimes put them at odds with mainstream conservatives. The views expressed in this blog are his own.
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I'm so sorry for these children.
This stuff is going to be on the internet for years.
Sarah Palin is having one challenging year. God bless her.
Rod: "...she has been floored by the unhinged misogyny the Palin nomination has brought out from the left."
Rod, I think you should see this dynamic - vicious attacks on a young politician you find personally admirable, even inspiring - as an opportunity for you to experience just what Obama supporters like myself have been feeling for months, as conservatives we have long thought well of (VDH, I'm thinking of you - and I'm thinking of you as well Rod) have floored us with the nastiness of their attempts to throw anything that might stick at Barack.
BTW, I'm assuming you'll be reviewing the sermons of Palin's pastors as rigorously as you reviewed those of Jeremiah Wright. Am I right, or wrong?
Bless,
Doug
Andrew Sullivan has problems with strong women of any political stripe. He also smeared Clinton for being too agressive and doing anything to win. But he gave Obama a pass for similar behavior.
"He is a better man than what he has done here."
This is sarcasm, no? Haven't you been following his extensive "research" into the "Cross in the Dirt" episode? The dude's a dirtbag.
Rod, I agree with all of your post except that last line that Andrew Sullivan "is a better man than what he has done here."
Based on his body of work over the past 4-5 years, he's really not much better than that. I wouldn't trust information coming from Andrew Sullivan if it was about the weather, or about what he had for lunch.
Here's my post from the end of the last thread, which seems relevant:
Rod,
Here's my first and perhaps my last thought on Palin and the conflict between motherhood and civic duty. If Palin has a career that she and her husband agree it is essential for her to pursue, then it his responsibility to give up his career and be home with the children. It is silly to talk about "60 days"; VP is such an important role that if McCain wins, Palin's availability for her children will nosedive for years to come.
I see it as akin to women in combat. I've got no problem with women in combat; I do have a problem with mothers in combat, unless absolutely necessary. And this goes just as much - if not more so - for the CinC.
Finally, God bless Bristol for having her baby. But I wonder if she would have become pregnant five months ago if she'd had even just one parent involved enough in her life to spend large amounts of time with her, as my wife - who has set aside her career for now - does with our teenagers. This doesn't "just happen"; it provides a window on to the home life of a potential future president.
Bless,
Doug
I suspect that if Andrew Sullivan doesn't hate and fear "breeders," he doesn't understand them.
And good for Obama. He said the decent thing, and personalized it.
The statement by Senator Obama is excellent and admirable. It's classy, and it shows why the man's political skills are second to none.
Too bad his decency and common sense is shared by so few of his supporters, at least the ones online.
What is really fascinating about this is the disconnect between Andrew Sullivan and the basic facts of human reproduction. He has refused to back off the story and continues to demand birth records. Does he actually know any women with children? HIs reaction is surreal. He sees everything through the filter of his disordered lifestyle. How strange and instructive.
Good for Obama. I'm glad he said this.
Andrew has been a little unhinged by the whole story
BUT, it does turn out the Palins were hiding a pregnancy secret. Whlie the wrong pregnancy secret and cover-up, Andrew's instincts that there was something wrong in the whole family picture was correct.
Andrew's latest post says, "Why not kill this rumor with Palin's medical records? . . . Just release them, ok? If necessary in a closed room for reporters, just as with McCain. And we can all breathe a sigh of relief and move on."
There's nothing stopping him from moving on, right now, from having been so deeply involved in spreading a stupid and malicious rumor that never was supported by any evidence or reason whatsoever. Palin should refuse to release the medical records, on the grounds that she doesn't answer to scumbags who start stupid rumors and then demand disproof.
When people wave their children around like an American flag or their families, to illustrate a difference in morality. I beg the differ with Obama. While he may be sensitive about this subject matter the distinction is...the McCain campaign came out waving this banner.
Then they proceded to hit us over the head with the Down's Syndrome factor, which we had no knowledge of before he enlightened us.
That being said, when there are problems with the pretty pictures being painted for us, then we need to ask the hard questions, but, not out of spite. "It has no relevance to Gov. Palin's performance as a governor and or her potential performance as a vice president." That is an untrue statement, if he said it. With 6 distracts, now going on seven. I should be real concerned if she could end up leader of the free world.
Personally, I am an Independent voter still digesting it all. I need to know as much as I can about all candidates, including, how they manage their family lives. If you have drama at home, then, you will be bringing it to work. It is that simple.
On a last note, if I was Democrat, I would be pissed by someone telling me how to act, who is mirely seeking my vote.
Since I began reading Rod's blog in 2007, I've been impressed by Rod's loyalty and generosity to his friends, including Andrew Sullivan.
However, this is not the first time Sullivan's behavior has been off-putting, and perhaps it is time for Rod to put some distance between himself and Sullivan (including removing Sullivan's blog link from Rod's list of "blogs worth reading") ... IF ONLY to protect the "crunchy con"/Rod Dreher brand.
As for Senator Obama's statement ("Our people were not involved in any way in this, and they will not be. And if I thought there was somebody in my campaign who was invovled in something like, they that would be fired."):
I hope this prompts the media to test this statement for its validity. Have any of the people in the Obama campaign been linked to these efforts? Let's all keep our eye on this and put the Senator's statement to the test.
Reggie:
Who bashed you over the head with that info? I've merely read about it in press accounts. Is McCain actually touting this? When did he say anything about it?
It's silly to claim mothering an unwed pregnant teenager (along with four other children) won't affect your ability to do a job you are almost completely unprepared to do anyway.
But it's John McCain who knew all this and made her his veep choice anyway. Who can realize that and still think he put America first?
Watcher:
What a weird comment.
“Much of the criticism of Obama, especially as it relates to his carefully constructed "image" is well deserved. The silly stuff about citizenship, and so on, is, well, just that.”
You duck the issue. What about the criticism of Wright and Michelle’s senior thesis?
“I'm sorry that you get emotionally overwrought when criticism of your candidate happens.”
Thank God, I don’t. What makes you think I do?
“The critics are overwrought... Not just wrong, being totally unhinged.”
For what? I’ve been offline most of the weekend. Today I’m seeing the typical shrieks and screeds, but in terms of topics being covered, what is unhinged about people delving in to the particulars of Palin’s unusual home life?
“Do ANY of you supposedly kind and tolerant and understanding and accepting liberals REALLY think that Palin's kids deserve the family trashing they're getting?”
Of course not. But then, I don’t think Jeremiah Wright deserved the trashing he got either. Or Michelle Obama the one she’s received.
“What do you think the perceptions and reactions of a 17 year old girl who's probably already a bit shaky about her own worth at this moment, will be when she sees the publications of the world trash her family for her mistake?”
Then perhaps Palin, who already knew her daughter who is not old enough to drink let one past the goalie, should have put her own ambitions aside and told McCain, “No.” I think we’d all agree that there are plenty of other qualified candidates out there for VP.
“You people have NO humanity left whatsoever. None.”
Wow. I would never presume to judge anyone so harshly. God bless you and yours.
Doug
PS: BTW, I'm not a liberal, which is another mistake you made. I'm a pro-life conservative who works for a major conservative Christian organization; I supported Bush in 2004 but expect to vote for Obama this year.
Good for Obama.
Regarding the alleged "conflict" between Palin's duties as mother and VP--should they win, I agree with Palin. Just what is it that the VP does? No, really. The VP presides over the senate. What else?
Just because the role of the VP has been expanded in recent administrations doesn't mean it ought to remain so. I would think Palin should have plenty of time for her family. (As if the feminists really want to make the argument that a woman can't have both a family and a career...)
As John Nance Garner said, the Vice Presidency isn't worth a pitcher of warm piss. What's the big deal?
I believe Obama, because he's a political natural, and getting caught rumor-mongering would hurt him way too much. It's true Republicans were OK with George Bush's campaign getting caught spreading rumors about McCain's black baby and mental health problems from 'Nam, and they were cool with his swearing to fire anyone leaking Plame's name, then pretending he never said it--but the public rightly holds Democrats to a higher standard.
Sullivan fabricates a malicious and obviously false rumor, and then rather than backing down, he keeps demanding, over and over again, that the person he has slandered open their private medical records to prove his rumor wrong.
Maybe he should demand Michelle Obama's medical records to make sure Barack didn't abuse her. As the man said, "Can you prove it DIDN'T happen?"
Sullivan now has about as much credibility as Stephen Glass.
nobody can find anything even faintly like this, nor have they ever done so.
The years of Vince Foster was killed by Hillary rumors.
Watcher
This is starting to reveal a vast gulf of difference between left and right critics... In the public eye. Although the left is screaming that Limbaugh and Hannity and so on are "haters", they talk hours a day on the radio, and nobody can find anything even faintly like this, nor have they ever done so. If they did, I would not listen even the only occaisional bits that I do.
Yes, if you continue to continue to think that a random person with a dK account, and Andrew Sullivan, who, may I remind you, self-identifies as a conservative, are 'the left'.
Seriously, people. STOP IT. I think better of you guys, that you wouldn't stoop to deliberate dishonesty. Well, saying 'Daily Kos' did this is dishonest. Period. It is a lie. I don't know if people here are just repeating what they're hearing, but it's not true.
Someone who got an account on DailyKos, which requires the complicated procedure of entering your email address and picking a username, posted a diary. Anyone who can operate a keyboard can do this.
Andrew Sullivan, who certainly doesn't speak for the left, who is in fact a rather weird gay ex-Republican anti-Bush conservative, took that diary and ran with it. And ran with it and and ran with it, even after other dK posters demonstrated how stupid the theory was.
Obama is right, Rod is right. Family is off limits and libel statements are criminal.
Palin is the choice of McCain and if you have to reduce yourselves to the level of the smear tactics of the past then you don't deserve a voice. Maybe if the "swift boat" types where prosecuted and had some jail time and hefty fines, the campaign could be run with integrity.
The Democrats may have started this with the "Daisy Ad" but the Republicans perfected it. Now some hard case idiots want to take it a set further and put cruel and unfounded lies out there.
Palin's Medical records are out of bounds and protected by law.
She doesn't have to dignify these vile charges with anything but her word that they are false. And Beliefnet does not need to respond to them as well. Don't spread the rumors by repeating them even if just to denounce them.
Me: "I supported Bush in 2004 but expect to vote for Obama this year."
Watcher: "Then you're a liberal."
Ah, I see. Your belief is that a person should be assigned membership in a school of political thought based entirely on their voting choice for a single political office in a single year. Thanks for clarifying the maturity of your thinking on this subject.
Bless,
Doug
Palin said she made the announcement to counter the Sullivan and DK rumors. If it weren't for the chattering, I wonder when she planned to announce that her daughter was pregnant? Had she hoped to get through the convention? Was she planning to announce it before the convention? Was she planning on making it public at all?
Well, here's something that bothers me more than the sex life of Palin's daughter:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/01/palin-on-pledge-of-allegi_n_122965.html
Question: Are you offended by the phrase "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance? Why or why not?
Palin: Not on your life. If it was good enough for the founding fathers, its good enough for me and I'll fight in defense of our Pledge of Allegiance.
She sure doesn't seem like an intellectual, let alone a scholar. I wonder what her position is on some of the major biotechnological policy issues we'll be fighting over in five years, like the ethics of genetic manipulation of babies in the womb?
Bless,
Doug
I wonder when she planned to announce that her daughter was pregnant? Had she hoped to get through the convention? Was she planning to announce it before the convention? Was she planning on making it public at all?
Who cares when/if she announced it. It's not our business. Her daughter isn't running for office. Not many parents go around announcing their teenage daughter's pregnancy. Perhaps, she should have walked up to the podium after McCain's introduction and said, "Hello, My name is Sarah Palin and my daughter is knocked up." I think this whole liberal frenzy underscores how much the Palin candidacy has shaken them.
God bless Sarah Palin and her daughter. But I can't support her running for office. Her own child Trig, and other kids, are demanding enough. But once you factor this pregnancy into it, I just can't understand why she would even consider the job. I certainly would not, in her situation. There is just too much need, and too much possibility to expose her family to the ugly reality of politics, as we can see.
Both sides are a mess on this thing. I certainly understand liberal anger over the idea that the side constantly preaching family values and abstinence-only education brings this situation to the table. And the right reacts with far more compassion than they ever seem to when the mother is poor and black, rather than middle-class and white.
On the other hand, the degree of rage and generally slimy behavior on both sides really reeks.
God help our country.
An illegitimate child.
What is this world coming to?
What happened to good, solid parenting?
Hello, My name is Sarah Palin and my daughter is knocked up." I think this whole liberal frenzy underscores how much the Palin candidacy has shaken them.
She was fine saying, "Hello, My name is Sarah Palin and here's my family." She's happy to use her baby's disability as part of her political story. Conservatives were more than happy to talk about the Palin kids when it was politically expedient.
Like it or not, she doesn't get to NOT talk about her teen daughter's pregnancy once she's used her children and family as political props. No politician does. If one of the Bush twins had gotten pregnant or Chelsea had gotten pregnant, are you saying the families wouldn't have to talk about it and acknowledge it?
I wish we lived in a time where a candidate's family was of no concern. But we don't live in that world. Remember on Friday when people on this blog were giddy to talk about the Palin family, the fact she was homeschooling her kids, and what a great mom she was? Welcome to the flipside.
One thing is certain: the mud-slinging is sure to get a lot worse over the next two months. Sorry if that's stating the obvious; I'm just so amazed at this whole Palin thing. I'd really like to hear a lot more about the issues but I guess that's wishful thinking.
I do know that if Obama's unwed, teenaged daughter was pregnant we'd be hearing from Rush and co. non-stop about how that was evidence of his bad family values and deficient management skills. That said, we all know that these types of things can happen even within the most solid families however they do tend to happen more often to the more dysfunctional ones. I don't think that one judge Palin on this wihtout knowing her family personally and the dynamics of it. I'm glad her daughter is doing the right thing and getting married and not aborting.
There is a great essay written by Frederica Matthews-Green, who sometimes writes movie reviews for National Review, about (paraphrased) "Why We Need More Teenage Pregnancy" or something along those lines. Basically she makes the argument that it is only in our artificial, post-industrial culture that parenthood is supposed to be put off until one's twenties when ideally the body is ready much earlier. And that within the context of a married couple with a strong extended family teenage parenthood is actually a good thing.
JPL: Re. your 3:56 comment, all Ii can say is amen!
Bless,
Doug
Andrew's instincts that there was something wrong in the whole family picture was correct.
Right. When you don't have the facts, go for the "fake but accurate" standard.
She was fine saying, "Hello, My name is Sarah Palin and here's my family." She's happy to use her baby's disability as part of her political story. Conservatives were more than happy to talk about the Palin kids when it was politically expedient.
This stuff is so revealing. I decided to watch a bunch of video Sarah Palin last night, and after going through a whole bunch of it... guess what... No use of her family as a gimmick. Nothing about her child. SHE doesn't talk about it. Nor did the campaign. The ONLY people making an issue of ANY of it are the haters like you.
Why on earth would Gov. Palin have any obligation to announce that her 17 year old daughter was pregnant?
She was forced to do so in response to the lowlife, unfounded rumors that the daughter had just given birth to Trig and that there was some kind of cover up.
The wrongdoing here has been solely on the part of the leftwing blogosphere and its vulgar trumpet, Andrew Sullivan. Don't even try to suggest here that Gov. Palin's at fault for not being sufficiently ready to air her children's laundry in public.
As John Nance Garner said, the Vice Presidency isn't worth a pitcher of warm piss. What's the big deal?
Posted by: Kirk | September 1, 2008 3:25 PM
The big deal in this case is that the Presidential Candidate is a cancerous 72 year old who stands an uncomfortably good chance of dying in office.
Daniel:
It would be interesting to comb through the posts and comments from this blog during the Rev. Jeremiah Wright kerfuffle a few months ago. I don't see how one could craft an internally consistent political position that considers unflinching scrutiny of the choices of a candidate's pastor to be appropriate, but the same scrutiny of the choices of a candidate's adult/child/old-enough-to-get-pregnant-but-young-enough-to-be-shielded daughter to be reprehensible.
As a wannabe fiction writer, I have to admit the irony of the twist is delicious. Republicans had a lot of fun with Wright for a few months; they don't seem as pleased now that the Democrats will have a lot of fun with the Palins for the last two months before the election. Hoist on their own petard, and all that. I also have to admit that part of me wants to see the reality show that would be the Palins and their extended family in D.C.
Doug
Does it occur to anyone besides me that all politicians are not exactly
exemplars of putting family first? Politicians today must know that
it is open season on not just themselves but their families, yet they
- whether Palin, or Obama, or McCain, or the Clintons, or John Edwards, or Larry Craig, or whomever else you care to name - go ahead and place their hapless families in the line of fire to satisfy their own ambitions. Maybe families
_should_ be off limits, but in this world, they aren't and I don't see that
changing any time soon. If it isn't the liberal blogs, or the conservative
blogs, or the MSM, or talk radio, it would be the tabloids like the National Enquirer. There is no place to hide anymore if someone is out to uncover your family skeletons.
Simon: "Why on earth would Gov. Palin have any obligation to announce that her 17 year old daughter was pregnant?"
And do you likewise feel that Sen. Obama is under no obligation to discuss anything regarding his pastor?
Bless,
Doug
You people have NO humanity left whatsoever. None. The thing is, I can't even imagine the personal aspect of it. Not even the election of Obama is going to fill your hunger for that power intoxication. And you gotta know that, so WHAT is it that drives this? Why do YOU engage in it?
Posted by: Watcher | September 1, 2008 3:04 PM
Wow. If I were you, I'd go lie down or something. You sound sort of stressed.
"I don't see how one could craft an internally consistent political position that considers unflinching scrutiny of the choices of a candidate's pastor to be appropriate, but the same scrutiny of the choices of a candidate's adult/child/old-enough-to-get-pregnant-but-young-enough-to-be-shielded daughter to be reprehensible."
It's utterly impossible to craft such a position.
Palin had no choice but announce that her daughter was a pregnant teen and that she was about to become a grandmother. It entirely reasonable--given our political culture--to wonder when she planned on announcing this bombshell.
Part of the problem here is that Palin's children have been made a campaign issue by the pro-life community. Trig was known to have Down's well before birth, yet she chose to have him and not abort. This was trumpeted from the top of the towers by conservative, pro-life advocates for several days, and is STILL being used as a reason for supporting her.
When the family is used as a campaign asset, it is not surprising to see that asset attacked. Edwards unwisely used his wife and her illness to advance his career, and when the affair was revealed he was shown to be a hypocrite (quite joyously, I might add, by Rod).
Palin is announced as McCain's running mate and immediately her family is cited as one of her strengths. Unwise, as it puts the family in the spotlight unnecessarily. And this kind of rumor-mongering is the result.
JPL got it pretty well. The double standard is unsettling. That said, I would rather the discussion be about Palin's parenting skills and beliefs than about her daughter. I suspect that will be hard to accomplish. The first post Rod had about Palin was extolling her because she had Down's child. Almost every post he has had up until these last couple never failed to mention her Down;s kid or the fact she has 5 children. These were clearly being touted as proof of her as a conservative candidate. If you wave those kids around to advantage when convenient, it opens the door for criticism if their is evidence of parental failure.
Doug- I would suggest you just treat Watcher as a troll. "1. To expand government by 100% (federally funded universal health care)" He is either insincere or lying.
Steve
OK, here’s another fun mental exercise. If it is OK to harshly critique a candidate because of choices made by people they’ve chosen to associate with, isn’t it even more acceptable to critique a candidate for the choices made by ONE OF THE ONLY PEOPLE ON EARTH WHOSE BEHAVIOR HAS BEEN INTIMATELY SHAPED BY THE CANDIDATE?
IOW, how does a critique of Palin because of her relationship with her daughter differ from a critique of Obama because of his relationships?
For example, could we re-write the following paragraph easily to make it about Bristol Palin and not keeping your thighs crossed?
“Actions have consequences. If Barack Obama didn’t want to be associated with an unrepentant terrorist, then he shouldn’t have struck up a friendship with him. What would’ve been even better is if Obama had declined an association with Ayers not because of how it would look to be associated with him, but because it went against his values. Shouldn’t that have been enough? Shouldn’t the fact that Bill Ayers was a terrorist who said he didn’t do enough be enough for Obama to not want to be his friend? These are the kind of people Obama associates with — Jeremiah Wright, Bill Ayers, Tony Rezko — and yes, it does matter. The people you choose to surround yourself with can be more telling than anything you can possibly say to the contrary, no matter how pretty a speech you can give.”
http://www.stoptheaclu.com/archives/2008/08/28/why-does-obamas-association-with-bill-ayers-matter-again/
Obama is right, Rod is right. Family is off limits and libel statements are criminal.>>
No. Not any more.
Family is NOT off limits.
Nothing is off limits.
If the target is a Republican.
Just wait.
Batten down the hatches, gang, it's gonna get rough. Hurricane Alinsky has just been spotted.
If you want to know a person, look at their friends. If you really want to know a person, look at their children.
Ron said of Andrew Sullivan: "He is a better man than what he has done here."
No, I think what he's done here reveals exactly the kind of man he is.
Crises don't turn us into new people, but simply force us to behave as our true selves. This crisis shows that Sullivan is as capable of disgusting thoughts and speech, as the most disgusting Kos commentator. He just has his own website with a big following, and book contracts.
Sullivan has been moving down this path for a long time - Palin is simply the crisis that fully reveals his character. Now, can we finally MoveOn, and totally ignore Andrew Sullivan?
If a parent cannot govern the moral behavior of his/her children, how can that parent be expected to lead our nation?
What has happened to our dear society?
Doug Cramer:
Your efforts to compare Bristol Palin (a 17-year girl dealing with a life-or-death decision) with the creeps who helped push Obama to the top (Wright, Ayers, Rezko) ... is powerfully telling.
You and the other left-wing Obamaniacs who are condemning the Palins over this just "don't do get it." When I think of you, I'm reminded of the movie "It's a Wonderful Life" and of how George Bailey (the Jimmy Stewart character) descriped the cold, sterile, greedy and Dickensian Mr. Potter as "warped and frustrated." That fits you and the others who are so quick to jump down the throat of this teenager ... and, worse, to use this story in order to denounce Governor Palin and promote the election of Obama-Biden.
It is not uncommon for teenagers to deal with issues of love, sex, marriage and parenthood EARLIER than their parents would like. What is uncommon -- and thoroughly commendable -- is the decision of this girl and her boyfriend (who plans to marry the girl) to have this child and not to abort it. This is the part that you folks "just don't get."
bd_rucker, thanks for bringing up that essay by Frederica Matthews-Green! Ever since I read that, I've taken a different view of teenage pregnancy. We've been conditioned to think it's one of the worst situations in the world. However, if the parents are married and there is help available from the extended family, things usually work out for the best. It's our culture that delays maturity.
I noted in an earlier post on this site that I had coined the verb "to derbyshire" which means to consciously ignore the writings of a self-absorbed gasbag.
Sullivan was derbyshired several years ago. His obsessive, whiny "gays as singularly and heroically noble while tragically oppressed" schtick made zotzing him out easy.
So I have no idea what Sullivan wrote related to Palin. However, I can be sure that it was seasoned with his special mix of repulsive, moronic, narcissism.
SteveM
P.S. Derbyshiring Bill Clinton has allowed to me to escape the bilge of that odorous reptile for years. What a relief.
P.P.S. George W. Who??
If a parent cannot govern the moral behavior of his/her children, how can that parent be expected to lead our nation?
Posted by: | September 1, 2008 4:36 PM
Ick...what a revolting analogy...
Doug, there is no difference. They are equally symptomatic of the incredulity of the American public fueled by sensationalism and no desire to take a candidate at his or her word.
Obama: this is what I believe now. Response: you associated with this and that person, so why should we trust anything you say about what you believe now?
Palin: this is what I believe now. Response: your teenaged, unwed daughter is pregnant, so why should we trust anything you say about what you believe now?
There are three logical choices:
1) Both candidates are telling the truth.
2) Both candidates are lying.
3) One is lying and the other is telling the truth.
The American public is frozen on the last one, because they cannot imagine either of the other two choices. The party faithful will knee-jerk their way through all negative press about their candidate, and continue to believe any and every lie about the other candidate.
I just love Americans, don't you?
If Palin truly cared for her children, she would have opted to forego this ambitious political move and simply told McCain that she had a four month old baby at home and a daughter who was soon to have a baby. She should have proven that she was really "pro-family" by declining the offer.
What kind of prospective president puts his election chances over someone else's family? I had a good deal of respect for McCain but now see him as a political prostitute like most of the rest of them. Kudos to Obama for calling the families off limits.
What kind of ambition allows someone to subject their family or anyone else's to this kind of abuse without full preparation regarding what was going to happen to them?
Rod:
Here's Exhibit A for why I continue to read Sullivan, and think your comments crowd should as well. I don't read Frum; where else would I find a link to a thoughtful conservative comment on Obama?
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/09/yglesias-awar-1.html
"Can we conservatives please stop kidding ourselves about Barack Obama's "qualifications"? Yes, if I had been a Democratic donor back in 2006, I'd sure worry about whether Barack Obama had what it took to be president. That was before he took on the toughest political operation in America, before he beat Bill and Hillary Clinton, before he won 18 million primary votes.
Obama's nomination was not handed to him. He fought hard for it and won against the odds. "Qualifications" predict achievement. Once you have achieved, it doesn't matter what your qualifications are. Who cares whether the guy who built a big company from nothing didn't have much of a resume when he started? But if you are applying to run a big company built by somebody else, the resume matters ...
The worst mistake in any fight is to under-estimate your opponent's abilities. Look what happened to the people who under-estimated Reagan. If conservatives are to have any hope in the coming weeks, we should wake up to the fact that we face in Barack Obama a formidable man, who appeals to something important and deep in the American electorate. He's not a superman, he has vulnerabilities, he can be beaten. But he won't be beaten until we who are trying to beat him understand why and how he has come so far,"- David Frum, NRO.
"As a wannabe fiction writer, I have to admit the irony of the twist is delicious. Republicans had a lot of fun with Wright for a few months..."
FTR, as a conservative who's pleased with the Palin selection, if Palin's pastor is a nut-job, I want to hear about it. We all need to hear about it.
Obama's pastor IS a real issue. If there's something like that with Palin's pastor, let's get it out.
Oh, and for the obtuse yet cunning among us, Hagee has never been McCain's pastor.
In Daniel’s world:
"Hi, my name is Sarah Palin and I'm proud to be chosen as John McCain's running mate. Here is my family."
*Palin points to her husband and kids in the background. Crowd watches, knowing the usual ritual that must follow every political candidacy announcement. This is why they’ve gathered.*
"They're great, aren't they? I realize that because I've introduced them to you, or used them as props, as some people say, it's incumbent upon me to now reveal some embarrassing, personal details about them.
"First, my oldest son Track. I'm so proud he joined the army. But did you know when he was 17 he was caught speeding and got a ticket?"
*Crowd hisses in disapproval.*
"My daughter Willow, she's 14. Such a lovely girl. You wouldn't think it to see her, but she once got into a fight with another girl at church and was forced to stand in the corner."
*Crowd boos and Willow bursts into tears, putting her hands to her face in embarrassment.*
"It's true, it's true," she cries, shaking her head.
"And here's Piper, she's 7. She's my little angel. I love homeschooling her, but she didn't do very well on her last American history test. I had to give her a D."
*Loud boos erupt. Shouts of "un-American" and "commie" are heard.*
"This is my baby Trig. If you want me to open up my medical records to prove he's really mine, I understand. I need to respond to every rumor no matter how baseless. He hasn't done anything too bad yet. But I'll be sure to issue a press release once he spits out his first mouthful of solid food."
*The crowd applauds her openness and willingness to satisfy them with every personal detail.*
“And last but not least, here’s my daughter Bristol. She’s 17. I know some of you may be thinking that this isn’t the time or place to tell you what I’m about to tell you, but I figured what time could be better than when the eyes of the entire country are upon her. I don’t think this is too embarrassing for a teenager so I might as well do it now instead of later in a more dignified or private way. She went and got herself pregnant!”
*Jeers and snickers move through the crowd. Bristol’s face gets red, but she remains poised, staring at the crowd, confidently. After a half a minute the crowd gets quiet. They start shifting their feet and looking to the sides. They shuffle off, disturbed with themselves.*
"The American public is frozen on the last one, because they cannot imagine either of the other two choices. The party faithful will knee-jerk their way through all negative press about their candidate, and continue to believe any and every lie about the other candidate."
Franklin, I don't think this behavior is unique in American politics. It's basically a human trait to close ranks around people who you believe are part of "your group" and to distance yourself from the "other." Once you've made that distinction about someone, it's difficult to be persuaded by any sort of argument for the other side.
Sorry, the anonymous 5:03 PM post was me.
Obviously my small plea to keep out of the fever swamps has been ignored; sad but all too predictable - venom is more intoxicating than understanding. I hope the Obama supporters out there listen well to his apt and adult response to this mess. Andrew Sullivan has shredded any remaining vestige of journalistic integrity he might have possessed by his actions. Please leave this topic alone, people; go back to snarling over the candidates, but leave the kids out of it.
McCain, Obama, Palin, and Biden are all human beings with human failings, they're no different than anyone else. They have different views on how the country should be run - fine, scream at each other all you want to about that, scream at each other all you want about their personal foibles and past associations. But absolutely nothing good will come from going after children, by either side.
I love how the Palins say that Bristol is "choosing life" -- when in fact if the Republicans (and Mom Sarah in particular) had her way neither Bristol nor any other American female would have any choice at all.
Thank you, Rod, for taking on Andrew Sullivan.
Sullivan is America's new Walter Winchell creepazoid - only worse.
There's a lot of noise here on this board and on many others, but the high altitude facts remain:
1. Andrew Sullivan is a creep of the worst order, who trafficks in filthy smear campaigns. The Atlantic should disassociate from him asap.
2. The Web innuendo this weekend was both astounding and false.
3. Sarah Palin is a class act and will continue to be.
4. The boomerang effect I predicted two days ago is more powerful than I ever hoped it would be. This is rapidly blowing up in the DNC's face. Obama's camp may have had nothing to do with this, but some troll from the DNC almost certainly did. As I and others predicted, they couldn't practice message discipline and simply keep quiet. They have now stirred the vast middle majority of this country and the Palin pick is a more powerful game-changer than I think any of us really realized.
CB: I agree. Let's leave Bristol out of this. But Sarah Palin's personal choices about how to balance work and family are fair game.
Bless,
Doug
Re: "I love how the Palins say that Bristol is "choosing life" -- when in fact if the Republicans (and Mom Sarah in particular) had her way neither Bristol nor any other American female would have any choice at all."
Oh Benny, how unctuously rich!
Now tell us that other choice would be. "Death" perhaps?
Right. So extend the mantra of radical autonomy from "I want the freedom to choose" to "I want the freedom to choose Death" Hmmm.... Now that's more like it. The stark realism of honest nihilism at its best. I like the idea of hitting the nail right on the head.
What do you think? Go ahead, stick the "Death" choice somewhere in your original comment and let's see how it sounds.
SteveM
Max: "If there's something like that with Palin's pastor, let's get it out."
Ask and you shall receive:
http://harpers.org/archive/2008/08/hbc-90003486
Mike Rose, senior pastor at Juneau Christian Center:
From a July 28, 2007 sermon: “Do you believe we’re in the last days? After listening to Newt Gingrich and the prime minister of Israel and a number of others at our gathering, I became convinced, and I have been convinced for some time. We are living in the last days. These are incredible times to live in.”
David Pepper, senior pastor at Church on the Rock:
From an November 25, 2007 sermon: “The purpose for the United States is… to glorify God. This nation is a Christian nation.”
+++
I assume that everyone here who argued that Obama should state whether or not he agrees with the statements of Rev. Wright are equally eager to hear if Palin agrees with this.
Bless,
Doug
It has been a while since BHO said anything that seemed 100% sincere. This remark seems 100% sincere.
If there's no evidence that his campaign is behind this smear (I worked all day and have yet to figure out the details of the smear), the right-wing loonies shouldn't claim it's behind it. If someone in his campaign is behind it, I hope he'll follow through with a very public firing and dressing down.
The only one smeared here is Andrew Sullivan. Despite his much alluded-to disordered lifestyle, he clearly has a better sense of "normal breeder" psychology than most of the posters here, better even than Dreher in his current emotional state of sanctimoniousness.
Please, think this through. Sullivan smeared nobody; he asked some reasonable, if difficult, questions in the context of reported facts that still don't add up. Palin, nine-months pregnant at age 45 with a Downs baby, would reasonably have been expected to be taking it very easy close to home. Instead, she flew to a Governors' Convention in Dallas? Bizarre Fact #1.
Then, her water breaks. As parents of 8, we can attest to the fact that "normal breeder" psychology dictates that you get to the hospital ASAP, particularly when you are in a double-high-risk pregnancy situation. Instead, Palin boards a plane to Alaska. Bizarre Fact #2.
Alaska Airlines personnel indicate to reporters that Palin didn't appear pregnant on the flight. Questionable and unsubstantiated, but surely worthy of followup, no? Bizarre Fact #3.
Upon arrival at Anchorage, surely she heads straight to the closest, best modern hospital, right? No, she continues her labor travels to a small, podunk clinic in the backwaters. Bizarre Fact #5.
Given the bizarre facts, Sullivan's suspicion seems to this highly-experienced Christian breeder to be by far the most charitable explanation. Sullivan accused accused Palin of nothing; there was no smear. He asked some reasonable questions given the bizarre facts. I would really like to know the truth of what this seemingly reckless woman might have been thinking. Is this Presidential behavior?
Given that she does appear to be Trig's mother at this point (still unproven, but clearly almost certain), how do we account for the bizarre facts?
And given what we have learned in the past 48 hours, how do we respect this woman's decision to completely forsake her family for a Quixotic vice-presidential bid? Dreher's earlier post referring to Palin as a "homeschooling mom" is an insult to all real homeschooling moms. This woman may be many wonderful things (moose hunter, beauty queen, etc.), but Dreher's knee-jerk desire to embrace her as some sort of family values role model seems at first glance to be largely misplaced.
Say what you will of Obama's politics, he and his wife seem strong enough and prepared enough to take this on without destroying their daughters. There don't seem to be any mental gymnastics through which I can jump to convince myself that the Palin family doesn't need their mom at the very time she is choosing to leave them in the dust for the highest of high-stress, 24/7 jobs on the campaign trail.
Certainly, we shouldn't "judge" her, but please spare us the family values nonsense, and apologize to Sullivan for asking reasonable questions about a situation that seems unreasonable in so, so many ways.
Doug Cramer: Question: Are you offended by the phrase "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance? Why or why not?
Palin: Not on your life. If it was good enough for the founding fathers, its good enough for me and I'll fight in defense of our Pledge of Allegiance.
I guess it's goofy enough that Palin thinks the Pledge was written in the time of the Founders, but in addition, the phrase "under God" was not added to the Pledge until about sixty-two years after it was written. See here.
I might point out that I don't have a problem with the "under God" phrase, as long as no one is required to say it in violation of his/her counscience.
Conservatives have been talking about how Palin is "one of us". Given the abysmal ignorance of hisory on the part of Americans of all political persuasions, as shown consistently in surveys, I guess she is "one of us", in that respect!
And do you likewise feel that Sen. Obama is under no obligation to discuss anything regarding his pastor?
No. Sen. Obama's longstanding, close associations with Rev. Wright and Bill Ayers tell us something about the ideological milieu he comes from. It's a window onto what how he himself thinks. Perhaps it isn't the whole story, it's clearly part of it. And that has a direct bearing on whether he ought to be President of the United States.
Gov. Palin's daughter's pre-marital pregnancy has no bearing at all on whether she ought to be Vice President of the United States. It's on a par with Ann Coulter's referring to the Democratic nominee as "B. HUSSEIN Obama."
Gratuitous, cheap, ignorant.
And do you likewise feel that Sen. Obama is under no obligation to discuss anything regarding his pastor?
No. Sen. Obama's longstanding, close associations with Rev. Wright and Bill Ayers tell us something about the ideological milieu he comes from. It's a window onto what how he himself thinks. Perhaps it isn't the whole story, it's clearly part of it. And that has a direct bearing on whether he ought to be President of the United States.
Gov. Palin's daughter's pre-marital pregnancy has no bearing at all on whether she ought to be Vice President of the United States. It's on a par with Ann Coulter's referring to the Democratic nominee as "B. HUSSEIN Obama."
Gratuitous, cheap, ignorant.
1)Dragging people's kids into the political mud-slinging is child abuse and should not be tolerated by anyone.
2)No matter how good your morals and parenting skills, they are no match for the prevailing porn culture of American media.
3)Andrew Sullivan is craving attention for his escalating tantrums. Don't give it to him, take his link off your websites, please.
Rod and his ilk are desperate to distract us but a hissing contest between two bloggers is of zero importance.
What's important are two recent decisions by the Republican candidates:
John McCain decided it's ok to nominate for Vice President a person with almost no qualifications he'd talked to two or three times and who's seventeen year old unwed daughter is pregnant. Does he not think the mother of a pregnant unwed seventeen year old has important family issues that might get in the way of a very big job of learning how to be President of the United States?
It's not like McCain had no alternate choices. None were great but many were more responsible choices than choosing Sarah Palin. The country didn't benefit by this decision, but John McCain hopes he will.
Sarah Palin decided it's ok to run for Vice President with no noticeable preparation or prior expectation of getting the nod while her unwed teenager is pregnant. This is the second most controversial job in the country and she had no expectation her daughter would not make the news and stay in it if Sarah made this decision, but Sarah made it. It's not like she was doing the nation a favor since McCain had other choices and it's sure not like she was doing her daughter a favor! Who stands to benefit by this decision? Just Sarah Palin.
For the eighty-seventh time, Sarah Palin's qualifications to be PRESIDENT exceed Barack Obama's qualifications to be VICE-President.
Sorry, but that's a non-starter.
The vitriol of the Left continues unabated.
Get help. (Preferably after you have ruined your candidate's chances of being elected, though.)
Regarding Andrew Sullivan:
FWIW, to me it's seemed as if he's getting more and more obsessed in the past year, over the Clintons, over Obama, over gay marriage, and now over Palin as well.
Furthermore, I find his frequent use of the term Christianist disagreeable, in that it does not seem to contribute in any way to any kind of civilized public life.
That said, there are plenty of people on the right wing--and the left-- who use similar kinds of rhetorical techniques; I don't read them at all. But Sullivan has, to my reading and mind, become more shrill and less thoughtful over the past year. I may take him out of the toolbar folder in Firefox if it keeps up.
I've had the same reaction to the Huffington Post, which I used to try and read; and to AH herself. The tone of HP seems gratuitously silly and not conducive to thoughtfulness in any way. Rather it's cheerleading for your "team"; but I'd prefer something resembling argument and/or analysis.
Mark Steyn: When I heard Governor Palin had a bear hide in her office, I assumed it was Andrew Sullivan breaking in to hunt down the birth certificate.
Ha!
In terms of what the left will stoop to, I think that Al Green puts it best:
"They'll lie on Jesus ... can't you see ... they'll lie on you and me."
Thanks, Ryan. That was a breath of fresh air. You are right, of course.
Here's the thing: I expect better of my fellow citizens. My heritage is (backwards chronology) WWII, WWI, centuries of Ottoman occupation on one side and centuries of scapegoating and object-of-bigotry on the other side.
I expect xenophobia and jingoism amongst the cultures of my ancestors. The dissolutions of Yugoslavia and post-Hussein Iraq are excellent examples. I don't expect it from my own countrymen.
Maybe I should change my expectations. I'm pretty sure I don't want to, though.
BTW, if your posted name indicates where you live, we're neighbors. Howdy.
FBC, with respect, repetition does not make truth... but I do wish to agree with you on one thing: you can lead a human to knowledge, but you can't make him think.
Here's some knowledge: Sarah Palin lied about opposing the Bridge to Nowhere. She supported it a lot before she opposed it a little.
Should we "leave the kids out of it"? John McCain doesn't seem to think so.
"Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly?" he asked guests at a Senate Republican fundraiser. "Because her father is Janet Reno."
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0708/11823_Page2.html
Sullivan's questions about Bristol's pregnancy are worse, why?
Doug
1. The underlying assumption here and everywhere is that Sarah Palin is solely responsible for the education, care, and upbringing of her children. Last time I checked, she's married to their father, who I presume will take leave from his job and move to Washington if she's elected. Is it so implausible that the father might have primary responsibility for the children?
2. Teenagers get pregnant and have babies all the time. They always have. They don't always get married in this day and age, when we're expected to go to college, grad school, and have a career before starting a family, but more often than not, they have babies. Abortion is not as widespread as its opponents would like us to believe. And abstinence to the age of 26 is just not realistic for most people, including, I would wager, most commenters on this blog.
3. Politician's children should be left out of the debate. Unfortunately, the Right made the mistake of holding this woman's family out as one of her strengths. I believe that may indeed be the case, although not in the way they were thinking.
Franklin, thanks for your comments and I agree that we should have higher expectations for our country. However, at least we're not at the point of violence to settle our political differences like the other examples you cite.
And yes, I'm also in Philadelphia - we should have a "Crunchy Con" meet-up here sometime. We'd need a restaurant that Rod would approve of - perhaps Dahlak or the Marigold Dining Room :)
Doug,
Can you not see the difference between a tasteless joke and spreading a rumor like the one Sullivan was spreading?
McCain apologized to Chelsea and her family. If Sullivan sincerely apologizes to Palin and her family we should forgive. I doubt he will though. He may well have shown himself to be not half the man McCain or Obama is. (Or one-third or one-eighth or whatever fraction one prefers)
At first I was willing to give him a bit of slack but he really did "pursue it in a passive-aggressive way" as someone else stated.
"I do know that if Obama's unwed, teenaged daughter was pregnant we'd be hearing from Rush and co. non-stop about how that was evidence of his bad family values and deficient management skills."
Perhaps, but Rush is a dufus and largely an entertainer. I don't know why people still take him serious,
I did respect Andrew Sullivan once. He is a well-educated and well-traveled man who seemed to have a good deal of compassion. Hence his principled stand against "enhanced interrogation" even when many on the Right mocked him for it.
I might agree now that Sullivan is no different than Rush Limbaugh.
There was an article recently about a study showing that when people are presented with falsehoods concerning someone that they will believe it even after the truth comes out. I work with alot of Republicans that circulate falsehoods by e-mail that can be easily checked thru Snopes but never are. They are read then mass mailed to others. The people at the top are aware of this study and know that by spreading lies they can win over someone's confidence. This is why you continue to hear the same stuff over and over, these people are too ignorant to check facts and are taken advantage of because of it. This is the true condition of the American people.
Dahlak is a good choice, Ryan. I don't know Marigold, but I'll look it up.
Frivolous1 gives me the opportunity to quote one of my favorite authors, Terry Goodkind, who has a keen insight to human nature that informs his fiction and gives it an edge missing in most other writings.
People are stupid. [...] They will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true.
As for anyone who might be offended by being called stupid, there is a simple cure for it: stop acting like it.
If PaLin can be lied about, along with her family. Are Obama's kids truely off limits??
The left is desperate and if Palin's daughter was killing this baby they would be applauding
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