Deep down, I think we all want, or should want, to be like Reihan Salam to some extent. Or at least to dance like him. He really is one of the most interesting and likable writers on the scene today,...
I thought he summed up my views about abortion pretty neatly:
"I just don’t think of, for example, opponents of abortion as bigots or as people who want to control women’s bodies — I think of them as people who believe that the fight against abortion is about treating all human lives equally. Frankly, I am a very unphilosophical person, and I think of myself as “pragmatic” on the issue of abortion, e.g., some number of abortions is probably ineradicable, yet I also find the argument from women’s autonomy to have a lot of weight. "
How helpful do you think the classification of views as conservative and liberal really is?
What I mean by this is that I think of my views as hippie-Green more than anything else. I'm never sure how to vote, but my politics/values are basically against power, hierarchy, elitism, materialism, governments, and corporations, and pro the environment, children, animals, the weak, little people, and basically people "doing their own thing". I would call these culture-of-life values, although I would define that somewhat differently from the pope, and further still from Bush. Being prolife and hating Islam strike me as flowing naturally from these positions, but they get me labelled palaeoconservative on this blog.
I certainly do not support either of the two types of conservativism most common in the UK and most of Europe: (i) old conservativism: for monarchy, inherited privilege, the power of the main church in each country, low social mobility, and male dominance; (ii) new conservatism (neoclassical liberalism / Thatcherism): for free markets, low welfare provision, freedom of individual behaviour for those who can afford, and vigorous policing/repression of dissent. Theocratically tinged conservatism, more common in the USA, also frightens me.
I stand closer to cruncy conservatism, which is how I stumbled upon this blog, but I don't share either the religious conviction or the obsession about promoting fertility.
Rufus Thomas
September 5, 2008 8:49 AM
rombald,
It sound to me as if you are a moderate crunchy-con of a secular or "ethical" sort.
The sense I get is that, like many in the UK, while you have rejected formal Christianity, you still operate on the basis of a set of moral instincts you derive from the culture in which you were raised, a culture that was Christian until about ... oh ... about two weeks ago, in the larger historical scheme of things.
While you reject formal Christianity, you do not follow through on the full implications of such a rejection -- you are not a moral relativist and the moral instincts you display are ones which make you a fellow traveller with or at least a good neighbor of crunchy cons.
What strikes me most about you is that you retain an egalitarian sense of the worth of all people and a tendency to side with the weak instead of the strong.
This is the Judeo-Christian "slave morality" that Friedrich Nietzsche took such pains to criticize, to condemn, and to heap his contempt upon in what is still by far and away the most intellectually honest assessment of what the moral implications are in the long term of an abandonment of Judeo-Christianity as a primary pillar of Western culture and society.
Just as there are "ethical" Jews, I take you to be an *ethical* Judeo-Christian, ergo your skepticism toward the various brave new worlds on offer from the fully secular left and right and your common cause with many aspects of the crunchy con worldview.
In this, you are a Reihanist.
Charles Stringham
September 5, 2008 9:55 AM
He's obviously bright, but he's also one of the more narcissistic and self-indulgent writers out there.
It's pretty typical that he'd think the fact that an idea reflects his experience is a good reason to support it and then go on and on about it. Ultimately, this approach will lead you into coming up with new and unique experiences for the sake of experience. Blogging, writing, politics, etc. just become a matter of expressing how unique you are, not actual reasoned discussion.
Rufus Thomas
September 5, 2008 10:35 AM
Charles Stringham,
To say that Reihan Salam is "narcissistic" and "self-indulgent" is partly just to say that he is very, very young. Give the man time -- he will outgrow much -- though, one hopes not all, of the tweeness -- for which he is known. And, in any event, unlike, say, the similarly young and overwrought James Poulos, most of what Reihan the writer as opposed to Reihan the z-list celebrity says is comprehensible to those besides himself. Whatever its limitations, *Grand New Party* is a solid piece of work and bodes well for future work both separately and in tandem from the songwriting team of Douthat-Salam. I'll confess that I tend to be more of a Ross man myself, but, that said, I have gone back and forth from John to Paul and back again all my life, so there may be hope for Reihan yet.
MargaretE
September 5, 2008 10:41 AM
Frankly, I found this piece by Reihan (is that pronounced 'Ryan'?) confusing. He says he considers himself a social conservative, but I see no evidence that he lives that kind of life. And to the extent that he BELIEVES in social conservatism theoretically, it almost just seems like a random choice. Like he played "eenie-meenie-minie-moe" and landed on social conservatism, when he'd be just as comfortable had he landed on liberalism.
He writes: "I buy this idea that we need conservative experiments in living just as much as liberal experiments in living to preserve and encourage what is best in our society."
So, even though he's not religious, doesn't have a family, doesn't "identify" with those parents trying to protect their children from a corrupt culture (though he does "sympathize" with them), loves living the boho life (according to a commenter on his blog), and has mostly liberal friends and associates... he's chosen to call himself a "social conservative" because he believes it's a necessary "experiment in living" (but so are liberal "experiments") and has known some jerky liberals? I think I'm missing something here.
Craig
September 5, 2008 11:00 AM
No, MargaretE, you are articulating with exquisite clarity what everyone else is laughing about. Triumph of the therapeutic indeed.
Sally Rogers
September 5, 2008 11:39 AM
I have stopped by a few times to this blog the last couple of weeks and have been put off by all of the disdain, anger and recriminations being thrown about by some. I do think that politics sometimes brings out the worst in people, and magnifies differences between people.
The other thing I find interesting is how easy it is for me to find those I agree with to sound reasonable and balanced, and how easy it is for me to conclude that those I disagree with are unreasonable and unbalanced. I think there's something about blog comments -- the anonymity and inabilty to see someone's face or hear their tone -- that magnifies this tendency. Maybe commenters could make an effort to try to compensate for this tendency by trying to assume the best intentions of those we are responding to.
But it is refreshing to see someone who makes some effort to see beyond the labels and ideologies. Even if I may not agree with the conclusions, it does seem worthwhile to recognize the humanity of those we disagree with, even if passionately.
AML
September 5, 2008 11:47 AM
Reihan: "I think of myself as “pragmatic” on the issue of abortion, e.g., some number of abortions is probably ineradicable, yet I also find the argument from women’s autonomy to have a lot of weight. "
I think there are lots of us pro-lifers like that. We believe in Life, and consider both abortion and euthanasia immoral, but pragmatically, we think that some number of abortions is probably ineradicable. Therefore, even though we believe that Roe v. Wade is bad law and unconstitutional, we do not relish a fight to remove it and transfer responsibility to the state.
Pretty much like the fight against slavery in the original writing of the Constitution: It's immoral, but we will give up the fight to make it illegal, because the strength, even existence, of the country is more important.
Rufus Thomas
September 5, 2008 11:48 AM
MargaretE and Craig,
Again, recognize that Reihan Salam is very, very young and that -- in partnership with Ross Douthat -- he has nonetheless done quite a bit of very substantive work in the form of their book *Grand New Party.*
Now, that said, the question does remain of whether the maturity I expect Reihan to grow into will entail changes in his personal life that bring it into line with his political ideas or whether it will entail changes in his political ideas that bring them more in line with his lifestyle.
Or it could just be the case that Reihan is that rare person these days who feels that his own lifestyle need not be everyone else's and who is able to argue vigorously and generously for the value of lifestyles quite different from his own.
I don't myself want to live the lifestyle of the urban, secular, leftist, supposedly and to some extent actually "cosmopolitan" bobo-volvo-latte "educated" elite -- been there, done that, no thanks -- nor do I think that anyone else should be compelled or brow-beaten into feeling that they ought to do so, but, that said, I still think that there is much value in what those folks contribute to society in general and I don't begrudge them the chance to make choices other than those I have made, even when I feel that the choices I myself have made are more conducive to the good life overall.
Perhaps Reihan just feels somewhat similarly toward social conservatives.
Merely some thoughts.
John E. - Agn Stoic
September 5, 2008 12:36 PM
I don't myself want to live the lifestyle of the urban, secular, leftist, supposedly and to some extent actually "cosmopolitan" bobo-volvo-latte "educated" elite -- been there, done that, no thanks -- nor do I think that anyone else should be compelled or brow-beaten into feeling that they ought to do so, but, that said, I still think that there is much value in what those folks contribute to society in general and I don't begrudge them the chance to make choices other than those I have made, even when I feel that the choices I myself have made are more conducive to the good life overall.
Posted by: Rufus Thomas | September 5, 2008 11:48 AM
I wish more people had your attitude, Rufus.
Karen Brown
September 5, 2008 3:40 PM
And how about those of us who aren't most of those things, who are part of the Left?
I'm a 43 year old woman living in a relatively small city. I have a bachelor's degree, but that's the extent of the education. Hardly cosmopolitan, don't know what a bobo is (if you mean boho (bohemian), then hardly..), don't own a car at all, and if drinking coffee is a weird lifestyle choice, then most of the US is part of the Left, and anyone making 6.55 an hour in a shelter is elite, nobody let me in on it.
Is it equally acceptable to think all Conservatives are toothless hicks living in trailers south of the Mason Dixon line, where they go to mega churches where they speak in tongues and handle snakes, before spending their weekdays simultaneously homeschooling their twelve kids and watching Jerry Springer?
Of course, I'm sure it'd be all fine, as long as I also note that I'm sure those people contribute to society too...
(And I dare one person to cite that as something the 'Left' thinks about 'the average American'.)
Karen Brown
September 5, 2008 3:44 PM
In other words, don't complain about stereotypes while both propagating and embracing them.
I am pretty sure that Conservatives live a variety of lifestyles. From stay at home moms, to high powered business women. Country and city, coffee and tea, religious and secular. (Big shock to some people.. Karl Rove? He's *gasp* not even religious...)
And, contrary to popular belief, same goes for the other side of the political spectrum.
Rufus Thomas
September 5, 2008 4:02 PM
John E.,
Thanks. It also wish more people had my attitude -- especially the bobo-volvo-latte crowd! ; )
Anonymous
September 5, 2008 5:01 PM
Thanks. It also wish more people had my attitude -- especially the bobo-volvo-latte crowd! ; )
Posted by: Rufus Thomas | September 5, 2008 4:02 PM
Excellent response, Rufus! And so true. When I began my rightward shift, only a few short years ago, it was because I literally could no longer stand the snide, condescending voices growing increasingly more copious on my favorite lefty websites. (Salon.com comes immediately to mind.) The frequency and intensity with which these writers mocked and belittled people of a more traditional bent became more than I could bear. I went seeking kindness and tolerance, and found – ironically, it seemed at the time – the American Right. While I may have over-corrected a bit at the beginning – because nobody's perfect! – I've never really looked back.
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Rod Dreher is an editorial columnist for the Dallas Morning News, and author of "Crunchy Cons" (Crown Forum), a nonfiction book about conservatives, most of them religious, whose faith and political convictions sometimes put them at odds with mainstream conservatives. The views expressed in this blog are his own.
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I thought he summed up my views about abortion pretty neatly:
"I just don’t think of, for example, opponents of abortion as bigots or as people who want to control women’s bodies — I think of them as people who believe that the fight against abortion is about treating all human lives equally. Frankly, I am a very unphilosophical person, and I think of myself as “pragmatic” on the issue of abortion, e.g., some number of abortions is probably ineradicable, yet I also find the argument from women’s autonomy to have a lot of weight. "
How helpful do you think the classification of views as conservative and liberal really is?
What I mean by this is that I think of my views as hippie-Green more than anything else. I'm never sure how to vote, but my politics/values are basically against power, hierarchy, elitism, materialism, governments, and corporations, and pro the environment, children, animals, the weak, little people, and basically people "doing their own thing". I would call these culture-of-life values, although I would define that somewhat differently from the pope, and further still from Bush. Being prolife and hating Islam strike me as flowing naturally from these positions, but they get me labelled palaeoconservative on this blog.
I certainly do not support either of the two types of conservativism most common in the UK and most of Europe: (i) old conservativism: for monarchy, inherited privilege, the power of the main church in each country, low social mobility, and male dominance; (ii) new conservatism (neoclassical liberalism / Thatcherism): for free markets, low welfare provision, freedom of individual behaviour for those who can afford, and vigorous policing/repression of dissent. Theocratically tinged conservatism, more common in the USA, also frightens me.
I stand closer to cruncy conservatism, which is how I stumbled upon this blog, but I don't share either the religious conviction or the obsession about promoting fertility.
rombald,
It sound to me as if you are a moderate crunchy-con of a secular or "ethical" sort.
The sense I get is that, like many in the UK, while you have rejected formal Christianity, you still operate on the basis of a set of moral instincts you derive from the culture in which you were raised, a culture that was Christian until about ... oh ... about two weeks ago, in the larger historical scheme of things.
While you reject formal Christianity, you do not follow through on the full implications of such a rejection -- you are not a moral relativist and the moral instincts you display are ones which make you a fellow traveller with or at least a good neighbor of crunchy cons.
What strikes me most about you is that you retain an egalitarian sense of the worth of all people and a tendency to side with the weak instead of the strong.
This is the Judeo-Christian "slave morality" that Friedrich Nietzsche took such pains to criticize, to condemn, and to heap his contempt upon in what is still by far and away the most intellectually honest assessment of what the moral implications are in the long term of an abandonment of Judeo-Christianity as a primary pillar of Western culture and society.
Just as there are "ethical" Jews, I take you to be an *ethical* Judeo-Christian, ergo your skepticism toward the various brave new worlds on offer from the fully secular left and right and your common cause with many aspects of the crunchy con worldview.
In this, you are a Reihanist.
He's obviously bright, but he's also one of the more narcissistic and self-indulgent writers out there.
It's pretty typical that he'd think the fact that an idea reflects his experience is a good reason to support it and then go on and on about it. Ultimately, this approach will lead you into coming up with new and unique experiences for the sake of experience. Blogging, writing, politics, etc. just become a matter of expressing how unique you are, not actual reasoned discussion.
Charles Stringham,
To say that Reihan Salam is "narcissistic" and "self-indulgent" is partly just to say that he is very, very young. Give the man time -- he will outgrow much -- though, one hopes not all, of the tweeness -- for which he is known. And, in any event, unlike, say, the similarly young and overwrought James Poulos, most of what Reihan the writer as opposed to Reihan the z-list celebrity says is comprehensible to those besides himself. Whatever its limitations, *Grand New Party* is a solid piece of work and bodes well for future work both separately and in tandem from the songwriting team of Douthat-Salam. I'll confess that I tend to be more of a Ross man myself, but, that said, I have gone back and forth from John to Paul and back again all my life, so there may be hope for Reihan yet.
Frankly, I found this piece by Reihan (is that pronounced 'Ryan'?) confusing. He says he considers himself a social conservative, but I see no evidence that he lives that kind of life. And to the extent that he BELIEVES in social conservatism theoretically, it almost just seems like a random choice. Like he played "eenie-meenie-minie-moe" and landed on social conservatism, when he'd be just as comfortable had he landed on liberalism.
He writes: "I buy this idea that we need conservative experiments in living just as much as liberal experiments in living to preserve and encourage what is best in our society."
So, even though he's not religious, doesn't have a family, doesn't "identify" with those parents trying to protect their children from a corrupt culture (though he does "sympathize" with them), loves living the boho life (according to a commenter on his blog), and has mostly liberal friends and associates... he's chosen to call himself a "social conservative" because he believes it's a necessary "experiment in living" (but so are liberal "experiments") and has known some jerky liberals? I think I'm missing something here.
No, MargaretE, you are articulating with exquisite clarity what everyone else is laughing about. Triumph of the therapeutic indeed.
I have stopped by a few times to this blog the last couple of weeks and have been put off by all of the disdain, anger and recriminations being thrown about by some. I do think that politics sometimes brings out the worst in people, and magnifies differences between people.
The other thing I find interesting is how easy it is for me to find those I agree with to sound reasonable and balanced, and how easy it is for me to conclude that those I disagree with are unreasonable and unbalanced. I think there's something about blog comments -- the anonymity and inabilty to see someone's face or hear their tone -- that magnifies this tendency. Maybe commenters could make an effort to try to compensate for this tendency by trying to assume the best intentions of those we are responding to.
But it is refreshing to see someone who makes some effort to see beyond the labels and ideologies. Even if I may not agree with the conclusions, it does seem worthwhile to recognize the humanity of those we disagree with, even if passionately.
Reihan: "I think of myself as “pragmatic” on the issue of abortion, e.g., some number of abortions is probably ineradicable, yet I also find the argument from women’s autonomy to have a lot of weight. "
I think there are lots of us pro-lifers like that. We believe in Life, and consider both abortion and euthanasia immoral, but pragmatically, we think that some number of abortions is probably ineradicable. Therefore, even though we believe that Roe v. Wade is bad law and unconstitutional, we do not relish a fight to remove it and transfer responsibility to the state.
Pretty much like the fight against slavery in the original writing of the Constitution: It's immoral, but we will give up the fight to make it illegal, because the strength, even existence, of the country is more important.
MargaretE and Craig,
Again, recognize that Reihan Salam is very, very young and that -- in partnership with Ross Douthat -- he has nonetheless done quite a bit of very substantive work in the form of their book *Grand New Party.*
Now, that said, the question does remain of whether the maturity I expect Reihan to grow into will entail changes in his personal life that bring it into line with his political ideas or whether it will entail changes in his political ideas that bring them more in line with his lifestyle.
Or it could just be the case that Reihan is that rare person these days who feels that his own lifestyle need not be everyone else's and who is able to argue vigorously and generously for the value of lifestyles quite different from his own.
I don't myself want to live the lifestyle of the urban, secular, leftist, supposedly and to some extent actually "cosmopolitan" bobo-volvo-latte "educated" elite -- been there, done that, no thanks -- nor do I think that anyone else should be compelled or brow-beaten into feeling that they ought to do so, but, that said, I still think that there is much value in what those folks contribute to society in general and I don't begrudge them the chance to make choices other than those I have made, even when I feel that the choices I myself have made are more conducive to the good life overall.
Perhaps Reihan just feels somewhat similarly toward social conservatives.
Merely some thoughts.
I don't myself want to live the lifestyle of the urban, secular, leftist, supposedly and to some extent actually "cosmopolitan" bobo-volvo-latte "educated" elite -- been there, done that, no thanks -- nor do I think that anyone else should be compelled or brow-beaten into feeling that they ought to do so, but, that said, I still think that there is much value in what those folks contribute to society in general and I don't begrudge them the chance to make choices other than those I have made, even when I feel that the choices I myself have made are more conducive to the good life overall.
Posted by: Rufus Thomas | September 5, 2008 11:48 AM
I wish more people had your attitude, Rufus.
And how about those of us who aren't most of those things, who are part of the Left?
I'm a 43 year old woman living in a relatively small city. I have a bachelor's degree, but that's the extent of the education. Hardly cosmopolitan, don't know what a bobo is (if you mean boho (bohemian), then hardly..), don't own a car at all, and if drinking coffee is a weird lifestyle choice, then most of the US is part of the Left, and anyone making 6.55 an hour in a shelter is elite, nobody let me in on it.
Is it equally acceptable to think all Conservatives are toothless hicks living in trailers south of the Mason Dixon line, where they go to mega churches where they speak in tongues and handle snakes, before spending their weekdays simultaneously homeschooling their twelve kids and watching Jerry Springer?
Of course, I'm sure it'd be all fine, as long as I also note that I'm sure those people contribute to society too...
(And I dare one person to cite that as something the 'Left' thinks about 'the average American'.)
In other words, don't complain about stereotypes while both propagating and embracing them.
I am pretty sure that Conservatives live a variety of lifestyles. From stay at home moms, to high powered business women. Country and city, coffee and tea, religious and secular. (Big shock to some people.. Karl Rove? He's *gasp* not even religious...)
And, contrary to popular belief, same goes for the other side of the political spectrum.
John E.,
Thanks. It also wish more people had my attitude -- especially the bobo-volvo-latte crowd! ; )
Thanks. It also wish more people had my attitude -- especially the bobo-volvo-latte crowd! ; )
Posted by: Rufus Thomas | September 5, 2008 4:02 PM
Excellent response, Rufus! And so true. When I began my rightward shift, only a few short years ago, it was because I literally could no longer stand the snide, condescending voices growing increasingly more copious on my favorite lefty websites. (Salon.com comes immediately to mind.) The frequency and intensity with which these writers mocked and belittled people of a more traditional bent became more than I could bear. I went seeking kindness and tolerance, and found – ironically, it seemed at the time – the American Right. While I may have over-corrected a bit at the beginning – because nobody's perfect! – I've never really looked back.
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