Dear Leader down for the count? Joy!

I believe that in Roman Catholic Theology, to which spiritual evil on another human being or to rejoice in the downfall of another human being is a very grave sin. I'm sure this is the case in Orthodoxy as well. Rod, you ask "Is it permissible to take pleasure and hope in the misfortune of others?" But the answer to that question is so obvious that it boggles my mind that you would proceed to deem yourself judge of another human being. Remember the prayer we pray prior to receiving the Eucharist,

"I believe Lord and profess that you are the Christ, the Son of the living God, come to save sinners, OF WHOM I AM CHIEF."

I'm not one to tap dance on graves, but if the stories are true, I hope some good for the North Korean people come of this.

By the way, I would make a distinction between feeling relief that a force of evil has now been terminated and joy over the actual misfortunate experienced by the human being who happens to be the force of evil. In other words, it is a sin to feel joy and happiness at the personal misfortune of Kim IL Jung but it is not a sin to feel relief that a very dangerous man may now be out of comission and there may be hope for North Koreans.

I think Joe's got it about right. There's the base, gut reaction (hah! you're about to bite it now, you old bastard!). Such a reaction is understandable, but it does not come from our best self, and we shouldn't cling to it. Next is the relief for the people of North Korea, which is perfectly acceptable. Finally, there should be prayers for Kim (or any other malefactor) regardless of how evil he is. Remember St. Silouan.

The government of South Korea is probably rooting for Kim Jon Il's to stay alive harder than anybody. The costs of absorbing millions of malnourished people with no idea how to function in a market economy will shatter south Korea's economy

But the answer to that question is so obvious that it boggles my mind that you would proceed to deem yourself judge of another human being.

Is it that obvious? I should say that the thing I would want to see most of all is for Kim to repent. But failing that, I hope the tyrant dies and his people can be released from slavery. Would it have been wrong to have looked forward to Hitler's death? The Rev. Bonhoeffer not only thought it wasn't wrong, he participated in a plot to kill him. If it was not wrong to anticipate with relief Hitler's death, why is it wrong to feel the same way about Kim -- not so Kim will suffer, but so the suffering of the millions of men, women and children being ground down under his heel might end?

Okay, fair enough Rod.

Yes, I too think that Rod gets it. At first, I wasn't sure because of Rod's initial question and because of this statement, "There's a special condo in hell for that cretin."

Thinking about this some more, I wonder if we shouldn't distinguish between a natural desire for justice and desire for revenge. To give an example, I may feel satisfaction that a heinous murderer is found guilty and sentenced to life in prison or death. But this is not necessarily the same as experiencing joy over the actual suffering that the murderer will face.

Rod, be careful what you wish for. Saddam Hussein was crazy too, but he kept the peace in Iraq and the trains ran on time.

Trains run on time? Saddam destroyed the whole of Iraq's infrastructure, by failing to spend a dime on it. Electricity was intermittent in Baghdad, and almost everywhere else was black most of the time.

Saddam destroyed the most fertile agricultural land in the whole middle east - the marshes and the farms watered by the river...

Saddam's roads and some minimal railroads fell apart and were never fixed.

There WAS NO PEACE under Saddam, at all. Millions of Iraqis were killed at the behest of Saddam. Every aspect of his administration was corrupt and incompetent. Not only was there no peace, there was no justice of any kind, and no ability to self govern by those who wanted free of his tyranny.

And the people who tried...Clinton sold down the river and let Saddam murder them wholesale.

"Exactly why these tyrants have been allowed by 'civilized' nations to continue to rule is an embarassment, and an indelible stain upon humanity. Every shred of human decency says we should have done something LONG ago."

watcher - that's exactly the kind of talk we don't need. If your desires were met, we'd be stuck policing every other nation, forcing them to assimilate to our goals. That's the democracy at a barrel, "do as we say or else". That kind of talk has no place in reality. It is unfortunate that our politicians and chattering heads run amok are stuck in notions of American manifest destiny.

Why not understand that not all people will be like us. Not all people work like us, and let them decide for themselves? The Russians did it. When the government was in the wrong, they rebelled. Not once but twice last century. If they can do it (under some of the most despotic governments known to man), then others (under equally or slightly less despotic leadership) can and will do the same, once it gets bad enough. Is it difficult to sit and wait? Yes. Is it necessary? Yes. Concentrate on building up our forces at home, and let the other nations figure it out. You get more bees with pollen-bearing flowers (aka the promise of something better within sight) than you ever will with a taser (aka current and past US foreign policy).

Technically, we did do something, and it ended up with what we have today. We may have more technology than we did then, but we still have the same mentality and the same obstacle: China, the puppetmaster. They have Kim held up by strings and they have us held up by different strings. Would I prefer that they (the North Koreans, or the Chinese) came around to our way of thinking? Yes. Is that going to happen? No. Get used to it.

watcher - that's exactly the kind of talk we don't need. If your desires were met, we'd be stuck policing every other nation, forcing them to assimilate to our goals. That's the democracy at a barrel, "do as we say or else". That kind of talk has no place in reality. It is unfortunate that our politicians and chattering heads run amok are stuck in notions of American manifest destiny.

Ahh, yes, the old "the people chose to have a tyrant and who are we to judge the situation" canard.

Or, in other words "I really do hate our country and the way we do things, and how DARE you be so stupid as to think that anyone else can self-govern either! Much less be liberated from the tyrants we on the left LOVE SO MUCH!!!"

Cripes, what an absurd bit of tripe. Furthermore, your attitude is completely and utterly immoral, in your refusal to believe that human beings really DO deserve their God-given liberties. I cannot think of a more hideous "philosophy" to hold in relationship to your fellow man. This is worse than the contempt of the racist or cultural elitists, this is "not only do I not care, how DARE YOU BE SO STUPID as to think they should live in humane conditions!"

The only thing I think that could possibly penetrate your wall of self imposed imorality is to be unwillingly deposited in NK yourself, and be subject to the tyranny yourself. Roughly 24 hours and you'd be changed forever, once you realized just how impossibly inhumane your fellow libs are.

"I NEED OUT, we have no food, we're starving, we're being killed by our police, our government, our military, and we are not allowed to complain OR DO ANYTHING TO RELIEVE THE SITUATION" would be YOUR telegram or email or letter or phone call.

And I'd hope it arrived at one who retorted "No, that kind of thinking is dangerous, you need to remove your own demons, besides, it would be arrogant of us to presume that your leader is actually bad..."

Of course he's bad. Of course he needs to be deposed. And yes, I DO have the judgement and the moral certitude to say that without hesitation and further, on that matter, I am absolutely correct and you are absolutely wrong.

Period.

Any further argument on your part is pure fallacy.

Damn, Watcher, go have a drink.

Having been to Panmunjom and the DMZ several times, I can't express with words the true sense of seeing North Korea. All I really got to see with my own eyes was the PRK side of the DMZ, but it was something of an education. Standing on an observation deck on the ROK side, you can see across to the hills across the way. They were all stripped bare of anything green while the ROK side was in full foliage. The people over there had evidently been eating it, making tea, soup, or what have you from leaves and bark, according to our guide. The PRK guards in the "peace village" were very well fed, indeed. a

At about the same time, around 1997 or 98, we, the U.S., had sent food aid. That food aid showed up in rations aboard an abandoned PRK submarine that the ROK subsequently seized. Take that for what it's worth....

Do you really think that Kim's death will change anything?