Is this Palin prayer weird?

Weird? No.

Conflating the spiritual with the material? Definitely.

You really don't understand this phenomenon, do you? Do you think the endless discussion of the cultural and symbolic meaning of a black man's political rise once Barack Obama burst onto the national scene was a "sideshow"? I don't. People vote for substance, yes, but what you consider substance is not what everybody considers substance. It matters a lot to people that somebody who understands them and their lives is in high office. Conservatives who talk endlessly of the supposed lack of substance in Barack Obama, and who fail to understand that the man himself is a large part of the substance for a lot of voters, are living in a bubble. Same with liberals who see the excitement a lot of people have over Sarah Palin as nothing more than a sideshow.

I'm not bothered by the line too much-- when issues are on the table, sometimes they work their way into people's prayers. I grew up attending fairly conservative, small-town churches, and we'd often pray on things that were of immediate concern (the local community fundraiser, a donations project), so I don't think this is too unusual.

What is bothersome about Sarah Palin is her overall propensity toward corruption, extremism and incompetence in equal measure: Corruption and vindictive governing in her home state (firing Mary Ellen Emmons, that librarian, when she wouldn't ban the books, firing the police chief over closing the bars earlier, firing the Agricultural Board to keep open a failing dairy that wound up failing anyway, Troopergate on which Sarah Palin is now stonewalling http://www.adn.com/opinion/story/516641.html , supporting the Bridge to Nowhere and a variety of earmarks), extremism (Alaskan secession, far more right-wing than most evangelical conservatives are, the apparent glee she takes in taking out polar bears and taking them off the Endangered Species list), and incompetence ($20 million debt in Wasilla).

Again, this is why many conservative Republicans (and very conservative-leaning Independents, like myself), who had originally planned a reluctant vote for John McCain, now will not do so. Sarah Palin is a wannabe extremist culture warrior, herself both corrupt and incompetent, when we're facing tremendous economic and foreign policy problems, resulting in part from serious corruption, and which need to be addressed competently. McCain made a very poor choice here and it's probably the single most severe blunder of his political career.

I've run into a few such Republicans who are even voting for Barack Obama, though for the most part, we're starting to embrace the campaigns of Bob Barr and Chuck Baldwin.

This is common parlance in certain quarters of Charismatic evangelicalism. I doubt those that are uncomfortable with the quote would have any problem if she were saying, "I think God's will has to be done in eliminating the global slave trade, so pray for that." Could it have more to do with precisely what she believes is God's will rather than the idea that God has a will for a specific policy?

"Could it have more to do with precisely what she believes is God's will rather than the idea that God has a will for a specific policy?
Posted by: Jeff S. | September 5, 2008 6:53 PM"

I think I posted the following quote back when I commented on this exact same prayer last week, but it bears repeating:

I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
-Susan B. Anthony

Here's just one example I'd like to point out of Kalnin's theology in practice. I'll have to leave for another time my commentary on it:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/02/palins-church-may-have-sh_n_123205.html?page=6&show_comment_id=15288212#comment_15288212

"Even Palin expressed surprise at that pastor's advocacy for her candidacy. "He was praying over me," she said in June. "He's praying, 'Lord make a way, Lord make a way...' And I'm thinking, this guy's really bold, he doesn't even know what I'm gonna do, he doesn't know what my plans are, and he's praying not, 'Oh Lord, if it be your will may she become governor,' or whatever. No, he just prayed for it. He said, 'Lord, make a way, and let her do this next step.' And that's exactly what happened. So, again, very very powerful coming from this church.""

Oops, this is the correct link for the HuffPo article. And yes, I know it's HuffPo, but I'm waiting for a more respectable conservative outlet to do the kind of analysis of Kalnin that they all did of Wright. And waiting. And waiting.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/02/palins-church-may-have-sh_n_123205.html

The words are certainly familiar to Evangelicals. Something feels off, though. What exactly is she praying? Pray that God's will is done or pray that what we're doing (which is God's will) is done? It feels off. This kind of prayer is usually offered up when someone is facing a decision, not when one is battling to implement a decision already made. There's a presumption here that wouldn't go over if prayed as an actual prayer in church.

Rod, you should appreciate this. Heck of job, Brownie:

"Months after hinting at possible damnation for Kerry supporters, Kalnins bristled at the treatment President Bush was receiving over the federal government's handling of Hurricane Katrina. "I hate criticisms towards the President," he said, "because it's like criticisms towards the pastor -- it's almost like, it's not going to get you anywhere, you know, except for hell. That's what it'll get you.""

Are you at all curious what Mother Sarah thinks of this statement?

It's a little interesting that some commenters were crying out for us to discuss this very video earlier in the day, and now they belittle our discussion of it. Huh. Well.

Anyway, I commented on this same video earlier - I'm honestly bemused by the hysteria around it from the Left. She's governor, and she makes remarks about boring state policy. Then it's typical church lady talk you'd find on any given Sunday all over America. Whether you agree with it is beside the point, or even whether you agree with precise phraseology from a theological perspective is beside the point.

Creepy?

This is what people do in church. They express their faith in God. If they're Christians, they express their faith in language specific to Jesus Christ. They quote from the Gospels and the Psalms and the Pauline letters. They pray. They ask for God's blessings. They ask for His guidance. They seek to do His will in all things.

You could find many Democratic governors in the Midwest and South doing the same thing in Southern Baptist churches, Methodist churches and other denominations.

Two years ago, Harold Ford, congressman from Tennesse, filmed a campaign commercial in a church. At a campaign event at Mt. Zion church in Nashville with Obama, the following occurred (reported by the Washington Post):

---
"...being an underdog has its own righteous appeal, and the campaign used that status yesterday not only to rally voters but as evidence that God had looked with favor upon the Democratic campaign.

Ford told an African American crowd at Mount Zion Baptist Church here, was evidence that 'we got something else at work.'

'I think the congressman said something wise -- we got another manager in this race," Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) told the group.

---

Now who is being selective and theatrical here about the alleged "creepiness"? It's okay for Ford and Obama, but it's kooky and "Christianist" for a Republican like Palin to talk to her own home church?

I am not a Pentecostal, but there are many, many Pentecostals in this nation of ours -- and they are not kooks, and they are not crazy. The Assemblies of God denomination has some 57 million adherents worldwide.

I'm not comfortable at Pentecostal services. That said, I know a passel of Pentecostals - successful, with-it, educated, whip-smart people. They're not mouth-breathing hicks from the sticks, and I've yet to hear any of them mention the Rapture or how thrilled they are to be working for the Dominionist-theocrat-Christianist conspiracy to institute "The Handmaid's Tale" and bring about the apocalypse.

Then again, maybe they just don't trust me with this deadly secret.

In own worship at my own church, though I'm somewhat inhibited, I've also been known to raise my hands once or twice if I felt moved to do so. I find churches where everyone sits in stillness in the pews generally unmoving.

That's just me. It's basically a difference in worship styles.

I don't think that makes me or anyone else like me weird, however. I remember watching a wonderful PBS documentary about faith and 9/11, and it featured this moving segment with a rabbi who prays aloud, singing the direct words from transcript conversations of 9/11 victims' last words to their families on the phone. I didn't find him weird, either.

What is REALLY striking to me about this video is frankly the contrast with Jeremiad Wright -- Palin is not standing up there in some fit of rage-filled Marxist liberation theology "prophecy" screaming out to God, asking Him to damn America. Nor can you compare what a guest speaker said at a church to 20 years' worth of mentorship in a militant black nationalist liberation theology worldview.

The more that the Left reacts with hysteria to things like this, the more average faith-filled Americans are going to realize how out of step their world views are with them. We can just look it up on Youtube and watch it. We don't require the high priests of the media to interpret it for us.

I'll ask again: Does no one from the Left besides the disreputable Michael Moore understand how off-putting it is to the vast majority of Americans when you engage in histrionics and insult us with this cooked up "Christianist" label?

Understand that faith is at the root of who Americans are. If that upsets you, it puts you out of the mainstream, not the other way around.

Democrats have made real in-roads in reaching out to people of faith this year. Leaders within the DNC have made every effort to do so. Presumably this was based on political expediency, but one also hopes it was motivated by some modicum of respect.

When you sneer at this, you're doing everything possible to implode that outreach -- as I predicted you would days ago.

I've said on this blog several times before that I don't like it when certain Christians -- usually charismatics -- begin a phrase with, "God told me... ." It is presumptious. But lots of people do it. I may not like it, but it's pretty normal.

Orthodox Christians are a tiny minority in this country. Evangelicals and charismatics are an enormous part of the population. When I say "normal," I'm talking about sociologically. What's normal in the US is not normal in Greece, and vice versa. If you want to make the argument that Rev. Wright's "God damn America" and racialist conspiracy theorizing is equally as normal -- again, we're talking sociologically -- as Sarah Palin's asking for prayer for God's sovereignty over a gas pipeline, okay, sure. Let's see how far that gets you.

I suppose we'll all be learning more about Palin's pastor, what he teaches and what she believes. And when it's reported, as it surely soon will, I'll be pleased to blog about it. Was Palin's pastor identified by her as her spiritual mentor? Was he a father figure to her as Wright was to Obama, by Obama's own testimony? Did Palin name her memoir after one of his sermons? We have no reason to think now that Palin's relationship to her pastor was remotely as close and as formative as Obama's was to his. But we'll soon find out. She's only been on the ticket for one week.

I really don't care much about the form and wording of the prayer. People pray in different ways, and I'm a big believer in being open-minded about such issues.

I'm much more concerned about the reasoning that goes behind the prayer, and I'll bet many other people will be as well.

First of all, people like Palin and Bush, who seem absolutely certain of what God wants, particularly in the realm of material and political causes like wars and pipelines, seem a definite threat to the body politic. People who are certain that they know the will of God have not played out well in human history, generally speaking.

Secondly, the idea that God would approve of such a plan, in the face of dire and growing evidence for global warming (which Palin completely denies as having a man-made cause), does not seem to me at all like the God who made us stewards over the planet.

How Sarah Palin prays, or even who she prays with, doesn't disturb me nearly as much as what she prays for, and her belief that she truly understands the desires of the being she prays to.

Oh, and Rod, you clearly seem to be focusing on the issue of normalcy. In other words, the question should be "Is this kind of prayer common among churches and churchgoers throughout America?"

It well may be. But should that be the question? The prosperity gospel is also extremely common in churches throughout America. Praying that we can kill our enemies is common.

Isn't the more important question "Do we want leaders who believe this way, and act this way? Do we want leaders certain that they know the will of God, even in the most mundance of matters? Do we want (more) leaders willing to go to war, damage the environment, or push for other vital legislation based on their certainty that God is on their side, and speaks His will directly to them? And that people who see or hear God in a different way are Wrong, and Other, definitionally?"

You seem very focused on proving that she is popular, normal, and represents the "common" people, whoever they are. You seem far less concerned about whether she is right.

Houghton: “Does no one from the Left besides the disreputable Michael Moore understand how off-putting it is to the vast majority of Americans when you engage in histrionics and insult us with this cooked up "Christianist" label?”

Me: Does no one from the Right understand how off-putting it is to the vast majority of Americans when you engage in histrionics and insult us with this cooked up “Liberal/Atheist” label, because we reject Palin’s foundational religious assumptions?”

Rod says:

I suppose we'll all be learning more about Palin's pastor, what he teaches and what she believes. And when it's reported, as it surely soon will, I'll be pleased to blog about it. Was Palin's pastor identified by her as her spiritual mentor? Was he a father figure to her as Wright was to Obama, by Obama's own testimony? Did Palin name her memoir after one of his sermons? We have no reason to think now that Palin's relationship to her pastor was remotely as close and as formative as Obama's was to his. But we'll soon find out. She's only been on the ticket for one week.

In the original video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG1vPYbRB7k&e ), it's very obvious that Sarah Palin prays for a whole lot of things that are political.

Rod wrote: "Evangelicals and charismatics are an enormous part of the population. When I say "normal," I'm talking about sociologically. What's normal in the US is not normal in Greece, and vice versa. If you want to make the argument that Rev. Wright's "God damn America" and racialist conspiracy theorizing is equally as normal -- again, we're talking sociologically -- as Sarah Palin's asking for prayer for God's sovereignty over a gas pipeline, okay, sure."

Sorry, no, I want to make the argument that Kalnin damning Bush critics to hell is equally as normal as Wright damning the US for its foreign policy.

You are as mistaken to equate Wasilla Assembly of God's theology with all of American Evangelicalism/Pentacostalism as were those who equated Trinity United with the entire American black church. On what statistical evidence do you base your belief that vastly more Americans would consider Kalnin's church normal and Wright's fringe? Do we want to start pulling denomination totals and Barna survey data? My cocktail napkin calculations would start with the fact that a large majority of the black population would feel just fine at TUCC, even if they didn't agree with all of Wright's rants, but that only a small percentage of white Christians - exclude every Catholic, mainline Protestant, Quaker, Mormon (maybe), Orthodox, and probably a third of all white Evangelicals - would feel just fine at Wasilla AoG.

So again, let's have some more meat to back up your definition of WAOG as "normal" and TUCC as "dangerous". Otherwise, you're not going to be very persuasive to those who don't start out sharing your assumptions.

Bless,
Doug

Doug

Rod: ""Just as many." Mmm-hmm."

Yes, Rod, just as many.

Survey Question 1:

"Taken as a whole, the ministry of Rev. Jeremiah Wright is simply an expression of one community's faith in Jesus Christ. This is what people do in church. They express their faith in God. If they're Christians, they express their faith in language specific to Jesus Christ. They quote from the Gospels and the Psalms and the Pauline letters. They pray. They ask for God's blessings. They ask for His guidance. They seek to do His will in all things."

A: Agree
B: Disagree
C: Don't Know/No Opinion

Survey Question 2:

"Taken as a whole, the ministry of Rev. Ed Kalnin is simply an expression of one community's faith in Jesus Christ. This is what people do in church. They express their faith in God. If they're Christians, they express their faith in language specific to Jesus Christ. They quote from the Gospels and the Psalms and the Pauline letters. They pray. They ask for God's blessings. They ask for His guidance. They seek to do His will in all things."

A: Agree
B: Disagree
C: Don't Know/No Opinion

On what basis other than your own opinion are you arguing that the results of this survey, if given to the entire nation, would show vastly more folks choosing "B/A" than "A/B"?

That is what you're implying, correct?

Doug

JPL: "First of all, people like Palin and Bush, who seem absolutely certain of what God wants, particularly in the realm of material and political causes like wars and pipelines, seem a definite threat to the body politic. People who are certain that they know the will of God have not played out well in human history, generally speaking."

Yes, I pray for a leader with more humility. Perhaps even one who is willing to admit when deeply controversial spiritual questiono seem "above his pay grade". ;-)

Doug

This represents a theology different from my own and maybe yours as well. So what?

There is YouTube footage bouncing around of someone named Khalid al Mansour, who has acknowledged that he was among a group of backers who called in favors to help Barack Obama get into Law School and who raised funds to help Obama pay for his tuition when he was there.

"So far, so what?" you may be asking.

Here's the kicker: the video is of al Mansour ranting and raving about how Ashkenazi Jews, as opposed to Sephardic Jews, are not included in God's covenant with Jews as it has traditionally been understood by Jews themselves, and also Christians and Muslims.

Al Mansour indulges in this ranting and raving in a manner that is at the absolute best on the borderline of anti-Semitic bigotry.

I don't have the stomach to watch such garbage closely enough even to speculate on just how offensive it might be to those whom it seems liable to offend the most -- Ashkenazi Jews.

The point of bringing this up at all is not to imply that Obama holds al Mansour's views -- I have no reason whatsoever to think that he does and some reason to think that he does not.

I bring this up simply to ask if the subject of candidates' sometimes controversial religiosities and ties to religious controversialists is really one whose revisitation will redound to the benefit of Obama and his campaign.

As I've made abundantly clear on other threads, I personally could give a rat's patootie for the wearisome Obama or his wearisome campaign.

Still, it amazes me that those who care about the man and his campaign seem intent on availing themselves of each and every opportunity that Sarah Palin presents to make him and it look even worse than he and it already do to so many of us.

Wonders never do cease, do they?

The problem with the "key line" is that this is only 21 seconds of a much longer clip. The video, Part 1, is 7:33 long:

youtube.com/watch?v=QG1vPYbRB7k

In its full context, what she is saying is a bit different than the clip may seem to imply. Listen to 1:00 - 2:48. (Rod's clip starts at 1:52 in this 7:33 video.)

It is peculiar to me, and I have always hated this type of mixture of religion and politics. It invites the worst forms of abuse of religion in the service of perceived and "divinely sanctioned" self-interest.

I would prefer to hear something to the effect of: "Let us pray that whatever is of God will become known to us, that we will stretch ourselves beyond our narrow frames to listen and grow through our love and trust in God."

Whenever I hear a politician saying this or that is the Divine will, and it dovetails ever so nicely with their agenda, it makes the hackles on the back of my neck stand up.

Of course that piety might start to work against her if she gets caught in too may "sold it on eBay" situations.

Savik: You lied!?
Spock: I exaggerated.

"I've said on this blog several times before that I don't like it when certain Christians -- usually charismatics -- begin a phrase with, "God told me... ." It is presumptious. But lots of people do it. I may not like it, but it's pretty normal."

It's not normal where I live, and I'm just as authentically American as you are.

The prayer is normal, once you accept the premise that there's a god out there who cares about human affairs. If you ask God to help your community, then, well, a pipeline with jobs fits the bill. It does get a bit crass in that it sounds like a political push, but it's not unorthodox.

Okay, just this last thing (geez this blog is addictive) and then I'm out.

Here's a nutty, weird, creepy Christianist prayer asking for some very specific, concrete things from God. "Crusade"? "Unholy forces"? It's a theocracy I tell you! See if you don't agree...

-------------

My Fellow Americans:

Last night, when I spoke with you about the fall of Rome, I knew at that moment that troops of the United States and our Allies were crossing the Channel in another and greater operation. It has come to pass with success thus far.

And so, in this poignant hour, I ask you to join with me in prayer:

Almighty God: Our sons, pride of our nation, this day have set upon a mighty endeavor, a struggle to preserve our Republic, our religion, and our civilization, and to set free a suffering humanity.

Lead them straight and true; give strength to their arms, stoutness to their hearts, steadfastness in their faith.

They will need Thy blessings. Their road will be long and hard. For the enemy is strong. He may hurl back our forces. Success may not come with rushing speed, but we shall return again and again; and we know that by Thy grace, and by the righteousness of our cause, our sons will triumph.

They will be sore tried, by night and by day, without rest -- until the victory is won. The darkness will be rent by noise and flame. Men's souls will be shaken with the violences of war.

For these men are lately drawn from the ways of peace. They fight not for the lust of conquest. They fight to end conquest. They fight to liberate. They fight to let justice arise, and tolerance and goodwill among all Thy people. They yearn but for the end of battle, for their return to the haven of home.

Some will never return. Embrace these, Father, and receive them, Thy heroic servants, into Thy kingdom.

And for us at home -- fathers, mothers, children, wives, sisters, and brothers of brave men overseas, whose thoughts and prayers are ever with them -- help us, Almighty God, to rededicate ourselves in renewed faith in Thee in this hour of great sacrifice.

Many people have urged that I call the nation into a single day of special prayer. But because the road is long and the desire is great, I ask that our people devote themselves in a continuance of prayer. As we rise to each new day, and again when each day is spent, let words of prayer be on our lips, invoking Thy help to our efforts.

Give us strength, too -- strength in our daily tasks, to redouble the contributions we make in the physical and the material support of our armed forces.

And let our hearts be stout, to wait out the long travail, to bear sorrows that may come, to impart our courage unto our sons wheresoever they may be.

And, O Lord, give us faith. Give us faith in Thee; faith in our sons; faith in each other; faith in our united crusade. Let not the keeness of our spirit ever be dulled. Let not the impacts of temporary events, of temporal matters of but fleeting moment -- let not these deter us in our unconquerable purpose.

With Thy blessing, we shall prevail over the unholy forces of our enemy. Help us to conquer the apostles of greed and racial arrogances. Lead us to the saving of our country, and with our sister nations into a world unity that will spell a sure peace -- a peace invulnerable to the schemings of unworthy men. And a peace that will let all of men live in freedom, reaping the just rewards of their honest toil.

Thy will be done, Almighty God.

Amen.

Franklin D. Roosevelt - June 6, 1944

I'm not bothered by the line too much-- when issues are on the table, sometimes they work their way into people's prayers. I grew up attending fairly conservative, small-town churches, and we'd often pray on things that were of immediate concern (the local community fundraiser, a donations project), so I don't think this is too unusual.

What is bothersome about Sarah Palin is her overall propensity toward corruption, extremism and incompetence in equal measure: Corruption and vindictive governing in her home state (firing Mary Ellen Emmons, that librarian, when she wouldn't ban the books, firing the police chief over closing the bars earlier, firing the Agricultural Board to keep open a failing dairy that wound up failing anyway, Troopergate on which Sarah Palin is now stonewalling http://www.adn.com/opinion/story/516641.html , supporting the Bridge to Nowhere and a variety of earmarks), extremism (Alaskan secession, far more right-wing than most evangelical conservatives are, the apparent glee she takes in taking out polar bears and taking them off the Endangered Species list), and incompetence ($20 million debt in Wasilla).

Again, this is why many conservative Republicans (and very conservative-leaning Independents, like myself), who had originally planned a reluctant vote for John McCain, now will not do so. Sarah Palin is a wannabe extremist culture warrior, herself both corrupt and incompetent, when we're facing tremendous economic and foreign policy problems, resulting in part from serious corruption, and which need to be addressed competently. McCain made a very poor choice here and it's probably the single most severe blunder of his political career.

I've run into a few such Republicans who are even voting for Barack Obama, though for the most part, we're starting to embrace the campaigns of Bob Barr and Chuck Baldwin.

Yes, I pray for a leader with more humility. Perhaps even one who is willing to admit when deeply controversial spiritual questiono seem "above his pay grade". ;-)

Doug Cramer, I take it you are referring to Obama's answer at Saddleback to the question about at what point is a baby entitled to human rights. This was not a "controversial spiritual question", it was a public policy question. If Obama can't speak to a policy matter then he isn't fit to be president.

Thank you for not thinking the prayer was weird.
All she asked for was unity between business leaders and the
spirit of the endeavor. Nothing today ever seems to be about the spirit of the Creator's will-ever Why are her prayers being touted as weird?
Why is any prayer that is obviously in the spirit of goodness,
weird? There's a lot that's weird out there and it's forced
into my life daily by various groups of believers in a totally
different belief system than what I think is God's will. And I can't
cry out that I think they're weird becuase it's all suppose to
be why we are such a great and tolerant nation. But when a prayer
asking for unity is said, and the words shared, by groups in the sanctity of their own house of worship, it's oddly touted as weird.
Just let the woman pray for God's will. She never asked for God's
will to harm, destroy, degrade or deny goodness. She asked for
unity for to arise so that a major project MAY be God's will. When you ask for God's will, you're asking for a blessing not a curse.
But some out there are treating the request for God's will in life as a curse. God doesn't curse your life, without doing his will we
curse our own lives.

Hey Doug,

I am an Orthodox Christian and I assume you are too. One question. Why are you so smitten with Obama?

Seriously.

What are you seeing that I don't see?

They talked about this, but a different part, at hotair.com; the AP misreported it, but the Huffington Post had reported accurately. The youtube video had been doctored (!)
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/04/yawn-the-ap-smears-palin-over-prayer-for-troops-in-iraq/

This subject reminds me of the two sagas over Obama and the very different interest levels in them: his pastor and campaign finance. In the same way that most of us aren't perturbed, or would not have given a second thought to Gov. Palin's prayer, many on the far Left, including media, never entertained the thought that Rev. Wright was interesting to look into. And when they did hear his sermons, they found them unremarkable. Had their biases been different, they would have stopped by the church much earlier and bought the sermons on tape (sold openly, btw) and Hillary would be the nominee today. When Obama refused the funding, many of his supporters were bitterly disappointed and the media voiced their displeasure to us (and Obama). Most of us on the Right were scratching our heads that *that* upset them so.

It was on my mind a lot today, with accusations and defenses flying around vis a vis Gov. Palin, and this post made me think of the differences in the interest of Obama's church and Sarah's church. It is so profoundly remarkable to me that, off and on, I visited his church's website for months to see if it had been discovered, just seeing how long it would take for its radicalism to be noticed. I believe it was Steve Sailer who brought it to people's attention via his blog and it was months later that Brian Ross finally made a visit.

Rod, What are you doing? We are not seeking an elected official whose beliefs and behaviors are within the bounds of the culture. Rap singers "banging" various people are also within the cultural norm, as things stand. This woman is a danger to the survival of the country if ever she should become president. sigaliris has it right. Both videos essentially represent a point of view that demonstrates that she could do anything imaginable with the endorsement of God (in her own mind). She appears to have already decided that the pipeline is the right thing for Alaskans and is asking for God's endorsement. This is not a matter of honestly seeking God's will with either outcome being okay as long as it's his will. The essence of the videos reflects a way of thinking that is both irrational and inconsistent with scripture (not voting for Bush risks your eternal salvation). This represents the mixing of faith and politics at its worst.

Normal, sure, but also big time wrong and alarming. I don't want this wacko in charge of anything.

"It's not weird if ... you go to church. Unless you go to a Unitarian church.... it's well within the range of normal American cultural behavior. "

I go to a church every weekend (Catholic, not Unitarian) and this is weird to me. God willing to end slave trade seems reasonable; caring about a pipeline, not so much.

Interesting that Rod is now unconcerned with something because it is normal American behavior. I thought the Crunchy con manifesto was rejecting American behavior/culture that was bad.

The larger video is as disturbing as described. Palin herself states that she believes Alaska will be a refuge state in the end days, and that the church must prepare.

I'm sorry, but I simply don't want a person with that kind of millenialist/triumphalist epistemology running this country. I wouldn't vote for she and McCain anyway, due to our many differences on ideology and policy, but that kind of talk really does seem scary to me, in a very real and well-reasoned sense. And after the last eight years, and Rod's own unhappiness with the current Administration, I simply can't imagine what the hell he is thinking being so positive about this choice. I realize that having someone who in some areas looks and thinks like you on the ticket has to be great, for conservatives who had little to look forward to with McCain, but selling out every value you've publicly espoused for the last few years to get it seems to dear a cost.

Rod: Is this Palin prayer weird?

Not in the least.

The Rituale Romanum contained prayers for the blessing of houses, churches, schools, cloisters, city halls, guild halls, buildings of sundry sort, rooms, furniture, land, cattle, pets, ships, fishing boats, rivers, dams, harbours, etc, etc, ad infinitum et ad nauseam in saecula saeculorum.

Though I doubt a pipeline was specifically excluded, it would have been absurd to anachronistically pray for a yet-to-be-invented structure. But the Blessing for a Sewer might with a small word-change suffice handily. After all from turd to fossil fuel is but the bounty of a beneficent and providential Creator.

This is all moot now, of course, since the conclusion of that infamous V2 Council. The blessing for churches has been replaced by the Rite for the Suppression of Parishes. Newly added are the Blessing on Entering a Synagogue, the Petition for the Coming of the True Messiah, the Litany for the Kissing of a Koran, and the Thanksgiving on the Construction of a New Mosque.

I would agree with those who think its weird from a strictly personal position, just because I'm not a pentecostal. Politically, I am finding a real double standard between the way pundits deal with her pastor and Rev. Wright, who was totally "normal" within the AFrican American prophetic tradition.

Closer to home, in my own denomination, Metropolitan Community Church, a predominately LGBT Christian denomination, there is certainly a faultline between those who come from various traditions. As a church of "refugees" from other traditions, we have those from Catholic, mainline and evangelical backgrounds, and the worship style wars can get very intense between the liturgicals, the low church types and the charismatics. Regionally, some of our strongest churches are in places where pentecostal traditions are the prevalent. So co-existing in a denomination with that style of worship means suspending judgment to some extent. But still personally, I resist that kind of prayer.

"A Governor beseeches the Almighty on behalf of the welfare of her people ... and the left is getting into a hissy fit over this?"

My guess is, Reaganite and his ilk set up a double standard between Palin and Rev. Wright. How is one any more extremist than the other? Oh yeah, the former is White and she is entitled to her religious beliefs, but if you're on the Left, watch what you say --- The Rush gang will be all over you.

I will be watching for the white smoke on the edge of my seat

No offense, Rufus, but doesn't white smoke on the edge of your seat usually mean that your pants are on fire?

Rod: "Is this Palin prayer weird?"

All who, considering the Central-Casting match made on the Dallas-Juneau shuttle of source and material, even think of answering such a question - rather than filing it immediately in the FBI's "Clyde, Honey, does this dress make me look fat - or Communist?" file -

zpub.com/notes/hoover-photos.html

reveal themselves victims of a setup by the shade of none other than our late Argus-eyed, cross-dressing Uncle J.edgar hisself...

sigaliris,

The prospect of Cardinal Daniel of Barackistan ascending to Pope Jeremiah fills me with so much anticipation that when the time comes I will not only be in Rome, but also sitting astride the smoke stack -- ergo the white fumes on the edge of my seat. ; )

As a former Pentecostal, I agree with rlb1961. While this type of prayer may sound odd to someone who's not from that particular tradition, it's definitely nothing out of the ordinary. Millions of Pentecostal/charismatic Americans pray these kinds of prayers daily, and even though I may have some problems with it theologically, it's certainly nothing to get alarmed about.

Also, lest fears of the dreaded "theocracy!!!" raise their ugly head, the vast majority of Pentecostals have no theocratic leanings whatsoever. I was a Pentecostal for over 20 years, and I didn't run into any theocratic ideas there at all. Almost all of the theocracy advocates I've encountered have been Calvinists of one sort or another.

"It's not weird if you grew up around here"

Rev Wright's sermons are not weird, anti-American, racist and anti-Semitic if you listen to the entire sermons. He was speaking out against the Iraq war, against the Bush administration, not the American people. It also requires an understanding of Rev Wright's variation of Black Liberation Theology, which I learned about in a great objective book:

"The Faith of Barack Obama," by Stephen Mansfield

http://www.amazon.com/Faith-Barack-Obama-Stephen-Mansfield/dp/1595552502/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217862248&sr=1-1

Mansfield is a pro-life conservative Republican that does not plan to vote for Obama. Mansfield demonstrates a true Christian attitude of not demonizing people that have different views. Mansfield has received death threats since writing the book. Mansfield states in the following video: (not 100% word for word)

What really disappointments me in the church today is the level of hatred about politics. As a follower of Jesus Christ, I am not allowed to hate someone that kills my wife, steal my property. Hatred in the church about politics is sin and it's got to go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFFWS6ioHJc

The book is educational, easy to read book, and especially good for people unfamiliar with black churches. Black Liberation Theology is much different from what I heard on TV. The author is objective and helps answer why Obama stated in Rev Wright's church for 20 years. He discusses what really shaped Obama's religious views, how they will inform the way he governs and why he may be a compelling leader not just to liberal Democrats but also to some conservative evangelicals.

The book also has a very interesting chapter about the religious faith of John McCain, Hillary Clinton, and George W Bush.

Audit for Two Rev Wright's Entire Sermons

Obama was NOT a member of an anti-American church. If the media & others had ever taken the time to listen to Rev Wright's entire sermons they would know that he was anti-Governments that kill innocent people in the name of God—Pres Bush

The entire audio for two Wright sermons:

Wright's sermon delivered on 4/13/03 “Confusing God and Government"

http://essence.typepad.com/news/2008/03/the-full-story.html

Wright's sermon was delivered on 9/16/01 "The Day of Jerusalem's Fall" Focus Luke 19:37-44

“War does not make for peace. War only makes for escalating violence and a mindset to pay the enemy back by any means necessary,” he said

Wright criticizes the Bush administration & it supporters for using Godly language to justify the war in Iraq. He equates using God in America as condoning the war in Iraq to the same perspective of Islamic fundamentalists

“We say that God will bless the shock and awe as we take over unilaterally another country, calling it a coalition because we’ve got three guys from Australia, going against the United Nations, going against the majority of Christians, Muslims and Jews throughout the world, making a pre-emptive strike in the name of God. We cannot see how what we are doing is the same thing is the same thing that Al-Qaeda is doing under a different color flag calling on the name of a different God to sanction and approve our murder and our mayhem”

Long history of government lies
“Prior to Harry Truman’s government, the military was segregated. But governments change. ... under Clinton blacks had an intelligent friend in the Oval Office. Oh, but governments change"

“Where governments change, God does not change. God is the same yesterday, today and forever more. That’s what his name I Am means. He does not change"

Note: "chickens coming home to roost" comment was attributed not to Wright but former Ambassador to the Iraq, Edward Peck

http://essence.typepad.com/news/2008/03/listen-to-rev-1.html

Response to Kalster.... By your WRONG and very BIASED assessment, Palin and her healthy great leadership of Alaska should have produced a horrible state of "freedom bleeding" during her time there. By all accounts, things... the people... the "state of union" of Alaska is just fine even though she's a Bible Believer! Well DUH! Believers are not some "weird" group of dummies! She has a great family and has left a wonderful record of accomplishments there. Just because she's a Pentecostal Christian certainly in NO WAY diminishes here ability. Washington will thrive with her arrival! I personally believe that God has set here in this time much like Queen Ester ... years ago "for such a time as this" Ester 4:14 She is fresh breath of air with some very Godly Common sense. My family and those I INFLUENCE will be voting joyfully for McCain/ Palin LIFE not the other group of liberal, taxation, namby pamby don’t know when life begins anti life folk. May God BLESS AMERICA not D*** it! Pastor Steve

Jesus was once asked about who to pay taxes to, the Church or Rome. He asked for a coin. A coin was given to him. He said, the coin belonged to Rome so give it to Rome. Give what belongs to God to God.

Is it moral and ethical for a Christian to take Government jobs, paid by taxpayers money and give them away to personal buddies over qualified applicants. Palin thinks it's ok to favor friends over legal process.

According to the New York Times, Sept 13th, 2008 - PALIN GIVES HIGH SCHOOL FRIENDS HIGH PAYING JOBS

"Gov. Sarah Palin lives by the maxim that all politics is local, not to mention personal.

So when there was a vacancy at the top of the State Division of Agriculture, she appointed a high school classmate, Franci Havemeister, to the $95,000-a-year directorship. A former real estate agent, Ms. Havemeister cited her childhood love of cows as one of her qualifications for running the roughly $2 million agency.

Ms. Havemeister was one of at least five schoolmates Ms. Palin hired, often at salaries far exceeding their private sector wages."

MCCAIN PARTIES WITH CATHOLIC CON MAN

According to magazine the Nation, September 2008, The photograph substantiates reports that in late August, 2006, McCain celebrated his 70th birthday aboard a yacht, the Celine Ashley, rented by A-list con man Raffaello Follieri and his then-movie star girlfriend Anne Hathaway. In the current edition of Vanity Fair, Michael Schnayerson reported that Follieri rented the Celine Ashley for the month of August 2006. Montenegro's leading daily
newspaper, Vijesti, earlier reported that during McCain's visit in 2006 he celebrated with birthday cocktails and sweets aboard the Celine Ashley yacht. In the photograph, taken in Montenegro at the end of August, McCain is shown boarding the yacht ramp towards the smiling Follieri and Hathaway. Just ahead of McCain and shaking hands with Follieri appears to be Rick Davis--McCain's top aide and now co-manager of his campaign, who accompanied him on the trip and advised the government of Montenegro. A few months after McCain's yacht party, Follieri strengthened his ties to McCain's orbit by retaining Rick Davis's well-connected Washington lobbying firm, Davis Manafort, and offering Davis both an investment deal and help in securing the Catholic vote for McCain's presidential bid.
Follieri, who posed as Vatican chief financial officer in order to win friends and investments, pleaded guilty Wednesday in a Manhattan district court to conspiracy to commit wire fraud, eight counts of wire fraud and five counts of money laundering. As part of the plea, Follieri admitted to misappropriating at least $2.4 million of investor money and redirecting it to foreign personal bank accounts that were disguised as business accounts.
At the time he met McCain, Follieri was adept at collecting friends in powerful places and using those connections to attract investments in projects which later turned out to be bogus. His ties to Bill Clinton and his entourage have been well-documented; the charismatic Follieri, whom Vanity Fair has likened to an ambitious nineteenth-century protagonist from a Balzac novel, ingratiated himself to President Clinton and aides by posing as a mega-donor to the Clinton Global Initiative. He also formed an investment partnership with California business mogul and Clinton donor Ron Burkle to develop surplus real estate properties owned by the Catholic Church, which Follieri claimed to represent. Burkle later sued Follieri for $1.3 million in misappropriated funds.