Spengler to Georgia, Ukraine: Drop dead

Watcher, your response was more civil than my post. Thanks for that, and my apologies. I get overwrought.

Simply put, I take you at your word. You repeatedly put forward the position that you will NEVER change, you will NEVER be silenced, that you CANNOT be restrain yourself in attacking liberal positions.

In my experience, people who will never change will never learn, since learning requires change. People who will never be silenced can never listen, which makes conversation impossible, allowing only for monologue. And people who cannot restrain themselves cannot compromise, or even deeply comprehend, the positions of others.

Your own statements indicate that you're not here to discuss anything...you're here to preach, to lecture, to rebut, to create diatribes. And I think blogs are for discussion.

Look, Rod and I are on the opposite sides of the political spectrum in many ways. And I certainly will post my positions here, and even argue for them. But I am also here to listen, and to learn.

I've had deep and important conversations with Erin Manning about abortion, and she has swung my position more closely to the pro-life position she takes, although I still have some doubts about the effectiveness of legislation to solve this problem.

Some of Rod's insights into Orthodoxy has made me crack some books on the topic, particularly those of Ware, as well as wander through the Philokalia, The Mountain of Silence, and some other works on the topic, which have proven meaningful to me.

I've even recently begun rethinking my support for Obama in this election, less on grounds that our values differ, but more on the ground that his values and mine BOTH differ so far from so many Americans, maybe we need someone closer to the mainstream to heal some wounds. I'm by far not convinced there yet, but I'm listening and thinking.

I never see anything that you post that convinces me you can change your mind on anything. You have the answers, and you're going to feed them all to us if you have to shove them down our throats.

This seems little different than your position on foreign policy. America needs to stand up to tyrants and dictators around the world, stop the Putins and the Ahmadinejad and all of their lot. You fiercely proclaim all this, as if you were Superman and would simply solve the problem with your biceps and heat vision.

Even our finest military minds recognize our military is overstretched, exhausted, and close to breaking. And we're only now seeing some positive results in Iraq. Afghanistan is a mess. Pakistan remains a serious problem. We've done next to nothing in the Sudan. Where are these troops going to come from? Who's going to fight these battles? Our economy is in terrible shape, and we've made foes of most of the oil producing nations that feed our national addiction? How will we pay for these military adventures? How will we fuel our tanks?

And who will support us in these efforts? Our allies are frankly tired of our crap, and our enemies smell the blood in the water. We've disgraced our reputation on human rights by Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, by extraordinary rendition and assassination squads, by "enhanced interrogation" and Halliburton kickbacks and no-bid contracts.

Russia? We'd have a hell of a time just fighting Iran nowadays, unless just leveling the entire place from the air suits your fancy.

And even is all this imaginary might were our's for the usage, what convinces you it would work? That we have the right? We kicked the hell out of Germany in WWI. The Treaty of Versailles created WWII and Hitler. We fought North Korea to a standstill. Today, they're a dangerous rogue nation. We bailed on our fight in Vietnam, and today they're a capitalistic powerhouse with a deeply satisfied populace. The outcomes of wars AREN'T predictable, win or lose. The Israelis have discovered the truth of that in their last fight with Hezbollah, and in the Gaza Strip. Even winning, you can lose. Even losing, you can win.

Many places don't even want the freedom you crow about, or at least not as you envision it. Many people in Iran want freedom, but it's freedom TO choose Islam, or headscarves, or a government grounded in Islam...not freedom FROM those things.

Even your post to me, more conciliatory though it is, carries the same problem. Daniel, Mary and their "utterly thoughtless diatribes", "spewing rhetorical nonsense"...all pre-judged. You're right, they're wrong, that's all. God said it, I believe it, That Settles It! No respect, no willingness to learn, no openness.

No one here is innocent when it comes to sometimes losing their temper, sometimes overreacting, sometimes engaging in personal destruction and ad hominem attacks. I'm guilty as charged, as are the others you mention.

But as far as I can see or read, 9/10ths of everything you post is simply absolutist claptrap, supported only by monstrously long and constant posting that simply overwhelms anyone else trying to talk, all filled with mean-spirited commentary, harsh judgment of anyone who disagrees with you, and nothing vaguely resembling balance, humility, or reflecting a belief that maybe you could learn something, however small, from your foes.

So yes, you and others like you, (many recent additions here since Rod decided "lock and load" was a Christian position to take with those who differ from him) seem to me to be ruining this board, which was once a place of reasonably civil dispute between relatively high-minded individuals.

I work in a downtown area. There is a mentally ill man there, deeply religious, who stands on a street corner each afternoon for hours, shouting at the top of his lungs and holding a Bible. He screams about Jesus, and Hell, and the End of Days. He's been there for years. People know to give him a wide berth, not because he's dangerous, but just because he's loud. I'm sure he sees himself as doing God's work, and he's absolutely convinced of the rightness of his position and the righteousness of his cause.

I doubt he's ever converted even so much as one person to the Christian faith. In fact, many people have said to me that it's people like him who prevent them from becoming Christians, since "that's how they are."

Most days, that seems to be you.

I believe what I say only in the sense that it's my best current thinking on the issues. It is certainly open to revision, learning, change and growth, based on my own development and the input of others.

It is clear that on a wide range of issues, your positions are certain and unchangeable.

Well, that about says it all then, Watcher.

You state: "These comboxes are, after all, designed with the intent of NOT communicating deeply and carefully, but superficially. Pretenses that you can or want to communicate in depth seem superficial in the context of here. They are as most of us treat them... the chance to say what we wish. "

There you go. I think that trying to communicate deeply and carefully should be the goal. Otherwise, as you agree, it's really nothing but superficiality and the opportunity to stroke your ego by saying whatever the hell you want. And that's what we call a soapbox.

Like the preacher on the corner, I'm not interested in people screaming on soapboxes. It's a shame. He has a good book to work from, in fact, literally THE Good Book. But he'll do next to nothing to change or improve anyone, or teach anyone, because he's more concerned with "saying what he wants".

Have fun. It's a free country. But you asked why I believe people like you are ruining this place, and I've explained it, and you've in large part agreed with my perceptions. You just think it's cool.

As far as I'm concerned, there goes the neighborhood.