What do converts want?

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Terry's essay is, to borrow from Fr Peter,"spot on." Having served as a priest in the Greek Archdiocese and now in the OCA, I know the difference between a parish that is silent, and dying, and one that is alive and singing. In almost every Greek parish I know, young people are noticeable by their absence. Ironically, young Greek-Americans are leaving because the parish they grew up in is not 'convert friendly.'

I remember Archbishop Spyridon of the GOA saying once that being an Orthodox Christian required conversion and baptism and that God was indifferent to the historical order. BUT both had to be there.

Reading Terry's essay I think he hit on the key when he talks about a winsome presentation of the faith. Alas a winsome presentation of the faith is, for many Orthodox Christian (whether they were baptized as infants or came to the Church as adults) not something they experience. For some in fact, the very notion of a winsome presentation of the faith is not only not something they've experienced, it is something that they don't want.

Triumphalism, whether ethnic or theological, is deadly.

Finally, Mattingly is correct, the key is worship. That said, worship alone is not enough. Worship is the root certainly, but outreach, evangelism, philanthropy and education are the natural fruits of right worship.

I can't really speak for the Orthodox church, although I would guess some of what Terry says is true, albeit a little self-inflating.

As for Catholics, I'm not sure it is at all true. The confusion is that we have "celebrity converts" and we have in-the-pews converts. For celebrity converts who are in the middle of fighting battles in their old churches, what Mattingly theorizes is true. Of course, Mattingly is a celebrity convert. So is Mathewes-Green and her husband--who fought legendary battles in the TEC--and so are Dreher and Beckwith. They converted as part of a "political" statement as much as a theological one.

For the humble convert seeking solace in the warmth of Christ's love, seeking healing in the Eucharist, I'm not sure Mattingly's theory holds water for the non-celebrity converts. I think of Sara Miles' conversion story in "Take This Bread."

I should not say this but the social psychologist in me is wondering how a study could be done to compare the character traits and life experiences of converts to Orthodoxy and (I know I'm going to regret saying this) Scientology.

Don't shoot! Put the gun down Rod and hear me out.

I don't mean that in the pejorative. I'm wondering if there is a common thread in among the converts to what are both, in their way, authority based belief structures albeit on the opposite side of the universe as far as belief itself goes.

And Scientology is as far on the other side of the Universe as I can find.

Anna, the other option to waiting for a mission to be planted is the one that my wife and I are contemplating, and it is a hard one, but the other option is to move (not possible right now). We are further from the closest parish than you by about an hour and we are going to try to start a mission.
The first step, if you are not Orthodox is to become Orthodox, otherwise, whats the point? Our priest drives over two hours every few months and we have been to our parish only a couple times in the last year, but in that time my wife was recieved into the faith and we were married. Our next step is to find a public place where I can pray either vespers or readers service or both. It is essential to find a priest who can work with you. We are between Tulsa and Kansas city. In Tulsa there is St. Antony's, an Antiochian church and the Antiochians have a reputation for starting missions, but the priest there simply didn't have the time (not a snark, he was always busy and always looked tired). We got in touch with the OCA and were put in touch with Father Timothy Sawchek from Holy Trinity up by Kansas City. He is able to work with us. You may have to look for a priest who actually can work with you, and you may have to do the driving to do so, but maybe not every week. You may have to put yourself out there in your own community and do advertizing and evangelism and all that. A mission doesn't have to be founded by a priest. Sometimes it is started by laity and, when it can support one, gets assigned a priest.

As a member of the LDS Curch, which is a convert seeking church, we offen get reminders that peple wha are seeking, are seeking MORE to give as well as more to recieve.

The Prophet Joseph Smith once said, “A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation. Those who do not make the sacrifice cannot enjoy this faith, because men are dependent upon this sacrifice in order to obtain this faith.”

Rod, I was raised RC and have been involved with various Prot. denoms for the past 30 years. I am one of those involved folks who think, sing and serve. I have never been part of a megachurch, and I'm not a church s/hopper. Worship has always been important to me, worship that calls for my whole body to participate. I've been ok with mystery for a long time and always felt, to one degree or another depending on the flavor of Protestantism I was involved in, like a fish out of water because of that. I was able to remain a Protestant for as long as I have been because there was room for me in the ethos of the Northumbria Community, and I was praying the daily office with them and Phyllis Tickle's books. The emerging church movement gave space never before available in any of my church milieus for me to ask questions and talk to people who were wondering about the same things I was pondering. I resonate with wanting a "convert-friendly church", and there is one just over an hour away that I am about to start visiting.

I am "atypical" for a woman (so I am told) because for me it's *all* about the theology. It was when I left RC'ism and it is again now. I am moving toward Orthodoxy because I see in it a seamless whole that can hold the dualities of paradox in tension and yet resists dualism, and particularly because it presents a God I do not have to apologize for and make excuses for. Yes, over the years I've missed the "smells and bells", but they are really the icing on the cake for me, not the main meal. Fr. Gregory is right about the "more comprehensible vision"; for me, that vision is about God and what God is up to in and through Jesus, and my "fitting in" fits with that. That's how it's always been for me.

Interestingly, my journey received a major impetus from reading (mainly) NT Wright's "Christian Origins" books. In chewing on his concepts, studying scripture and praying, I would come to some theological conclusion, and would find that wherever I landed, I would turn around only to behold Orthodoxy, waving at me... I have an Orthodox friend who, after his first listen to a Wright audio with other friends, said that in response they all agreed, "Yup, nothing like Orthodoxy!"

I am a convert to Orthodoxy of 4 years. I began my life as RC then left the church to marry my non-denominational husband. We eventually became Baptist and I remained so after his death. Twenty years as RC and 24 as Baptist.

I was looking for the ancient early church and my historical/theological studies took me straight to Orthodoxy.

All of what Mr. Mattingly has written rings true for me. Currently I am in a small Russian parish though there are converts. I have found everyone to be welcoming, though other visitors have said we are not. The parents are not committed to bringing their children to Sunday school and their teens to church. When asked why, the primary response I get is because they don't want to push their children as their ethnic parents pushed them as children. A mistake I think.

I think it would be helpful to have a parish priest who works full time for the church. Ours is bi-vocational by necessity because the giving in our church is not enough to sustain a priest full time. The necessity of teaching stewardship is prominent.

Thanks for sharing this.

Anna, Will, and others who might be interested --

What I can tell you is that the Antiochians are going to be doing something significant over the next year to expand their mission-planting efforts. What I suggest, more than anything, is to drop a line to Fr. Peter E. Gillquist, who is the person in charge of Missions and Evangelism for the Antiochian Archdiocese; he will at the very least be able to make some concrete suggestions.

In terms of Will's suggestions regarding starting your own mission, etc. he's quite right; there are lots of services one can do without a priest or a deacon present. If you ever read about the monk Fr. Ambrose (formerly Fr. Alexey Young), you'll find out that he built a chapel in his garage and had some 30 people there for a reader's Vespers service before any of them were even Orthodox yet. I can help you track these kinds of services down if you think they might be useful to you; e-mail me privately at richardtenor (at) gmail.com.

Richard

"I have a friend who wants to be Orthodox -- more than anything. He has for a number of years been visiting a nearby Orthodox church. But there's a problem. You see, this friend also has business that takes him to Chicago, and when he is there he worships at All Saints Orthodox Church, a vital, convert-friendly parish. He sees the Orthodox life there and he wants it like life itself. His problem is that he cannot find it where he lives."

I must say, I find such an approach quite disturbing. Because I don't think it's about being "more Orthodox". It's seems more to be about "how you feel" at a specific place - it's actually a very American/post-modern consumerist approach.

But if he really thought that the Orthodox Church was The True Church of Christ, he wouldn't be disturbed by any of this. He would long for receiving the Sacred Mysteries. He would be overjoyed about being able to worship Christ "in truth".

I mean, what kind of approach is it that you don't join the Church you think is true (or that you should be thinking is true, if you want to join it), just because people didn't SING at a specific service?? I mean, gimme a break...

Mr Mattingly is very correct about converts wanting more orthodoxy, not less. I converted to Catholicism from agnosticism four years ago. I had almost only known very-very lukewarm Catholics in my early life. I never could life the same life they did. But with time I found myself friends and a community that are fully orthodox, and that have dignified worship (though I live in a big European city, so that's not that difficult to find). At the same time, I also believe that being a Catholic does not depend on how good the music is at a parish or how the people "participate" or even how they behave in their personal lives. It's about Truth...

I have experienced deep and satisfying worship in many different environments, from Communion in a field using a bottle of wine and a loaf of Italian bread, to singing praises in an Elk's club supper hall. I think it is about the heart more than the setting. I have been asking people what would you do if somebody gave you a church, as that happened to me. How would you worship if there were no rules? willohroots.wordpress.com What would you do?

I agree with Petra. As an Orthodox Christian convert, when I take my non-Orthodox family to parishes where congregational singing is not the norm, true they are confused. I just gently explain that Orthodox parishes are different (I come from a congregational-singing one myself) and worship in different ways, and quiet prayer doesn't make that parish less Orthodox. I think that while communicating Orthodoxy to modern culture is important, we must not let ourselves be boggled down by their same un-Orthodox cares, but witnessing to the true Faith. They think it's strange because they are not used to it, not because it IS strange.

I enjoyed this article. I didn't read through all of the comments, but the article was an interesting perspective for me. I am an Orthodox convert. I converted a year ago into the Antiochian Orthodox Church. I'm 32 and was part of an Evangelical/Pentacostal church for about 11 years prior to converting to Orthodoxy. Before that (and before marriage actually) I was an 'occasional' christian. I would pray the Lord's Prayer daily, just from prayer that happened to be lying around and I would attend the Lutheran Church my grandparents attended from time to time. My parents did not attend church at all. I 'accepted Jesus' into my heart the first time at a Protestant children's meeting that I attended with friends (approximately the age of 10).

The main difference I notice with Orthodoxy is that it is not about what I feel. It's not about how I feel. It's not about building up passions, emotions and excitement through worship services. I appreciate that it focuses more on the fundamentals of the faith, and in that, allows for the faith to stay a bit more untainted from the original church than, say for example, a non-denominational church. Whether it's right, or wrong, I have no idea. I do know that it is rich in history, and for the most part isn't as dominant in your day to day life as the other churches I've attended. In particular, I found that the Evangelical church I was a member of was consistently trying to play a major role in our family's everyday decisions. Where to live, where to work, what to buy, where to send our kids to school, etc. I find that Orthodoxy (in my own experience) does not do this. In fact, it seems that the focus is more on integrating Orthodoxy into your everyday life (at your own pace) instead of integrating your everyday life into Orthodoxy.

As a convert, (and coming from the situation I was from before in an Evangelical/Pentacostal church), I seek to have the church stay out of my business so to speak. I want my number one focus to be on my family, then church, instead of being guilted into 'God's plan for you' mentality to get me to take over volunteer work that essentially pulls me away from my family.

So far, I have seen that within Orthodoxy. I'm learning the ropes, but for the most part, I have felt no judgment, only encouragement to take responsibility for my own faith. Of this, I am excited.

In response to Joe Brinda I would like to say that Orthodox people DO have a personal relationship
with Jesus. We do not use the terminology of "born again" though. We know that
people can "fall" in and "out" of their belief in God. One year someone may believe Jesus is God's son but he can be tempted or become spiritually lazy and end up being an unbeliever.

Orthodox Christians also believe that everyone is a sinner. We are taught that we should look at ourselves as personally the first among sinners. We look at sin kind of like an illness. We seek the care and advice of our spiritual doctor (usually our parish priest) to help us see our sins, discuss ways to attempt to try to be less sinful, and realize whom we have hurt by our sins. We also call this repentence. We ask God to forgive us just like you. Please read literature written by Orthodox authors. Please come and worship
God with us sometime!

Michelle,

I am sorry to hear about your situation; an answer to your question would fill volumes if answered in completeness. To start simply, I would look into a number of Orthodox catechumenical texts. I would stress they be Orthodox because in terms of discussing differences, the Orthodox are generally the limiting factor--many Roman Catholics will dilute differences in their understanding. I pray that all goes well for you and your family.

>>>Pete