Anthony Esolen's Rules

Great list! I would add:

Never marry a person who's bitter toward his/her ex. He or she is still harboring feelings.

Never marry a person who is too friendly with his or her ex. Cordial is fine, being buddies is not.

Never marry a person who still has the belongings of an ex in his or her possession.

Never marry a person who is in group therapy. You have no privacy, and he or she is discussing matters that should be discussed only with you with others.

Never marry a person who enjoys poor health. There's a distinction between that and somebody who is sick or disabled.

It's okay to marry a person who is unemployed (if it doesn't matter to you and the other income isn't required); but never marry anybody who does nothing.

These are, for the most part, idiotic (even if they are a bit tongue in cheek).

"Don't marry a man who is neater than you are."

Huh? Why? Does that make him gay or something. You know, some women aren't that neat and some men are particularly orderly. Maybe some couples can make that work.

"You may, however, marry a man who polishes his tools and puts them away after use"

B/c then you know he's not gay I guess.

"Don't marry anybody who insists on a separate bank account, bed, bathroom, vacation, or zip code."

I'm sure my wife would agree with me when I say that it would be quite wonderful if we could have separate bathrooms and I assure you are marriage would be the better, not worse, for it.

"Don't marry a man who does not like dogs. Such men do not like children."

Don't really care for dogs. I love (and like) my children very much though.

"Never marry . . . a man who does not like to help out with the removal of a junked car, regardless of how much he knows about junked cars."

Why would you want to help out with the removal of a junked car? Sounds like a dreadful chore to me.

"By all means marry a . . .man who looks at a mudslide and says, 'I can make a really fine wall out of that.'"

Now I'm just confused. What the hell is a really fine wall? And mudslide? Is he talking about a real mudslide or a dessert prepared by your wife who likes to feed people.

"Never marry anyone who is not interested in looking at your fourth-grade yearbook. "

Dear lord, are you kidding me.

You may marry a man with multiple tattoos, but only if he can explain the occasion and significance of each one. Evasiveness in this area is a deal-breaker.

Cheats and thugs, fair enough, but condemning losers sounds a bit un-Christian (not that I would know!).

Tattoos - never marry anyone, male or female, who has any. The same goes for ear and nose piercings. At risk of cutting down the options too far, I would be tempted to distrust any woman who shaves her legs or man who shaves his face. Or who wears any jewellery.

A separate bank account is merely prudent. It needn't be large, but it's good to have in case of emergencies. Maybe I'm only saying this because my family is military, for generations back. You should be open about this, of course. Financial secrets can't be good for a marriage.

However, one can never agree with everything on a list. :) Certainly all are things to keep in mind. There is some measure of truth in a lot of the list.

At any rate, the man I marry has to read widely and/deeply, and laugh, and know how to relax. He also has to be a man of honor, who appreciates valor even if he feels he falls short of it, and a man who has faced trial, and come through it. He should also be at home in the outdoors, because that's where I am most at peace.

Never marry.

;-)

Perhaps I'm getting humility in old age, but I have greater difficulty coming up with these lists, mainly because I can think of several counter examples for each and a counterexample of perfection to boot. Most of the items simply aren't all that important although one can recall a humorous example involving some.

Most of the list can be drilled down to one rule: Don't marry someone that is immature, and don't marry someone that has become set in their ways. Needless to say, that rule is worthless.

Grumpy Old Man is right about staying away from cat ladies though.

For numbers 2 through 6 below, I learned the hard way.

1) Look closely at the person's behavior since you've known them. Especially look for instances of instability, controlling, manipulation. Ask yourself, if this became 100 times worse, would I be happy?

2) Has the person ever had any diagnosis or treatment for any psychiatric or psychological problem, no matter when, no matter how minor?

3) Was the person abused in any way as a child, or neglected, or abandoned?

4) Was the person sexually abused or assaulted at any stage of life?

5) Was either parent an alcoholic?

6) Examine what the person has done, where they have been, as an adult. Any evasiveness, or things that don't seem normal, then get away. Don't hesitate.

If the answers to any of these are "yes", then don't walk away. Run away. As fast as you can.

My rule: ignore these lists of rules and create your own. In the words of the poets: "The world don't move to the beat of just one drum, what might be right for you might not be right for some".

anon - I've been married 8 years. All the things I warned about in my earlier post were true about my spouse. I could write a long book about all I've been through. Here are a few highlights. Keep in mind, none of this happened before we got married. No warning signs at all.

For years, I was subjected to incredible outbursts of anger. I could be attacked, yelled at, cursed, and insulted over anything, or nothing, at any time. Every aspect of my life was attacked. Especially my family members, who treated my spouse very well.

After 6 years of intense therapy, most of the anger is gone now.

Obsessive behavior was another problem. We spent entire Saturday afternoons discussing why some high school friends said a certain thing. Over and over. We would regularly spend 30 minutes or more on the phone, while I was at work, discussing some obsession of hers. We've spent countless hours discussing strippers and prostitutes.

Sex has been almost non-existent. We tried the first few years. But she would end up attacking and insulting me. We haven't tried in many years. May not ever try again.

After her father passed away I almost had to move out. One night she threatened to kill me, and broke my car window as I was driving away.

We had a good financial cushion when getting married. But we almost went broke due to her excessive spending. The 6 years of therapy have helped her now to control this. But lots of arguments and tears to get there.

She can't travel anywhere overnight. This disruption is too much for her to handle. She becomes unstable. I can't travel overnight on my own. The last 2 times I did, she started to go out of her mind (literally - psychiatric medicines only work to a certain extent).

She can't interact with other people. She hasn't been to church in 5 years. We haven't gotten together with friends in 4 years. For a couple of years, she barely left the house on her own. If we run into a friend while at the grocery store, this can disturb her psychological condition.

She started using pornography shortly after we got married. This is still a problem.

I'm sure I've left out whole categories of stuff I've been through.

My life can never be the same. Even if all her problems go away completely, and years pass, I'll still have to wonder if they will come back.

I'm very sorry to hear about your wife, Brett, and glad to hear that things have improved from the lowest point. I think that your points #1 and #6 are common sense, but I don't think it follows that marrying someone who fits one of 2-5 will always lead to disaster. I think that's the problem with establishing hard-and-fast rules. Most people are intimately familiar with only their own marriages, and assign dos and don'ts accordingly. There are many happy, stable, productive people with a history of minor psychological treatment or instances of abuse or alcoholic parents on their resumes. There are many awful people without such backgrounds. I think these lists arise too much from people's own experiences, when everyone's experience is different. Marrying a good, stable, honest, caring person is important, but trite, arbitrary rules about dogs and tidiness do more harm than good. And even rules about the big things, like Brett's, are far from universally applicable. Not all abuse victims are created equal.

I have violated many of the sillier rules here, thugh i don't feel compelled to elaborate.

Boil it down to some simple ones about a potential spouse-

Does the person have a good heart?

Can this person love children?

Is this person honest?

Some of those are good common sense, some are insightful, and some are just stupid. The ones about dogs, for example -- one of the best husbands and fathers I've ever known is not a "dog person," and I don't think he was taken by surprise when he found he loved his children. Some people (self included) just don't relate to dogs well. It doesn't mean we're not fun-loving, it doesn't mean we don't find enjoyment in romping with less-rational creatures; it means there's something about dogs we don't connect with. And yeah, I like cats. I'm not Jane Wyman. Deal.

The one about the junk cars and the mudslide rubbed me the wrong way as well. I guess that's because I'm married to an excellent man who just isn't a hands-on, "Git 'er done" kind of guy. That doesn't mean he doesn't take care of his family well, that doesn't mean he's not good at things that matter as a husband, father and provider. Mostly it means that his father became ill and died before he had a chance to pass on a lot of that "guy knowledge" that develops that kind of mentality into a useful skill.

And the fourth-grade yearbook? Come on, [i]I[/i] don't even have an interest in what I did in fourth grade and who I sat next to. That doesn't mean I don't care about where I came from. For some people, that might matter. For others, it's a non-issue. Some of these are a lot more about what Anthony Esolen cares about, or what his wife cares about, as matters of personal taste, than about universals.

But some of them were great. The one about not marrying a scoffer -- well, that's straight out of the Psalms. Ditto the ones about treating female relatives well, thinking ill of typical male interests, and public belittling.

Wow, Brett, you are in the battle of a lifetime. I certainly hope that things will get better. As you said, you will never be 100% sure that things can stay better even if they do improve, but I also imagine you would be a hell of a lot more at peace if she could got out casually and be okay with you being gone overnight now and then.

My mother has a few of these issues, though by no means to the same extent. She is able to work and has friends and has no trouble going to social events and church. She is not obsessive, but there is some measure of paranoia, and a lot of anxiety and anger. They tried her on a few psychotropics, to say that did not end well is a bit of an understatement. It's come to light recently that she may have had mild traumatic brain injury as a child, and it's rather hard to unravel how much of what she's dealing with is that, and how much is genetic. She does not want to pursue final consult with a neurologist because she is scared, so me and my brother are just left wondering. We intend to care for her ourselves in her old age if at all feasible, being good traditional Hispanics (even if we are ethnically mixed) who value precious few things more than family ties. But we are also aware it could come at a heavy cost if things do not go well. There is also my youngest brother to be concerned about. He is still school aged and living with her. It would be nice to have a bit of a road map so we could plan accordingly, but these things are uncertain, like life itself.

I'm praying for you, Brett. I hope you have some support on your end.

If anything, you should be suspicious of a man whose friends are principally female. The men may be avoiding him, and there is a reason for that.

Sheesh, except for a few very close male friends, most of my friends are female. It's not so much that men are avoiding me (so far as I know), but that I am avoiding them. In my experience, when groups of men get together they tend to talk about a) sports, and/or b) cars, both of which bore me to tears. I enjoy having friends I can really *talk* to, and, sorry to say, but on the whole women are better at that.

Having said that, I have generally preferred to date (and have had more successful relationships with) women who have more male friends than female friends. I don't have a gang of male friends, and I prefer women who don't have a gaggle of female friends.

But, then, I've never been married or even come close, and at this point I doubt I ever will.

I won't even bother reading this list, as the snippet Rod posted sounds stupid and every list I've ever read like this has been just as dumb.

From being badly burned, my rule is similar to what a few people above have said: problems that are unsolved pre-marriage will not be solved after. Most likely they will get worse. My only rule? Trust your instincts. Keep in mind that you may have children with this person, and if your worst suspicions come true, you will be visiting this awfulness on your own flesh and blood. Trust me -- nothing is worse.

MJ