Palin debate verdict: She didn't lose

As someone who won’t be voting for McCain, and as someone who still thinks Palin’s not fully qualified for the presidency, I was glad to see her get through this debate. She did reasonably well. Her summation on preserving freedom and passing it on to the next generation were the best lines of the debate, beautifully delivered.

Biden did well and was a master of policy per se, but “freedom” is a theme the Dems studiously avoid.

Sarah did well. Rod, you may find "that Sheriff Marge from 'Fargo' chirpiness deeply annoying." I don't. I have lived in only 2 states, the sunbelt states of Texas and California, but I find her accent, her chirpiness, highly engaging.

The best part of the "debate" was not so much the debate but watching the Bidens and Palins interacting afterwards. Can you see the Sunnis and Shiites yukking it up with one another, introducing their families, after a debate for control of Iraq? I disagree with Biden about almost everything, but find him likable. I suspect he and Palin actually like one another. That encourages me. Watching the party hack b*llsh*t artists after the debate discourages me. Where the f*** do these ***holes come from?

Honestly, she was precisely as I expected; sharp, coached, deviating from a question anytime she wanted and talking then about any thing she wanted. I thought she did very well. But again, and how can one not repeat it.... Is this who you trust to be leading the United States of America world wide in wartime, during a global financial apocalypse? No. But I sure wish she lived down the street because I know she would look after my house when I was out of town, be great at helping fight for better accountability in the neighborhood school on the board, say 'gee whiz' every time I altered my landscape.

Palin is quintessentially American and I both like and respect that. But what others will love...that she is so common... a 'real person' is unconvincing to me. I want substance and uncommon depth ...both in terms of intellectual curiosity and professional acumen and there she is to Biden what a valentine is to an aorta.

Perhaps Rod has aspirations of becoming the new ubiquitous token granola conservative talking head on all the networks.

I hope you don't mind my saying, Rod, as a fellow Southwesterner, that I've always had an ingrained bias against "you betcha" accents. It's not my favorite, but I just don't find Palin's accent grating. I find both her and Biden equally endearing, for different reasons obviously. I thought Biden's emotional moment was genuine.

Palin was strong tonight. She was confident, as well as being down to earth. She connected with the camera (and thus the viewing audience) more than Biden.

This will re-energize the Palin supporters and do nothing to sway the Palin haters, and it doesn't change the fundamentals of where the race is going. Let's call it a re-boot on the Palin brand. I think we can gauge how well she did because now the Walter Winchell of 21st-Century journalism (aka Andrew Sullivan) has now switched to a new tack (or gone back to an old one) - demanding a press conference.

Biden did a solid job (gaffe-free!). He was sort of muted, but he didn't hurt the ticket. Here's the thing: I like this guy. I think it would be fun to sit down, drink beers and listen to him tell old war stories about the Senate. But I think he flashed his denture choppers too many times, and said some borderline silly things (like referring to himself in the third person) and there were times when he finally starting looking angry. He also liked to make references to Dick Lugar and inside ball in the U.S. Senate that goes over people's heads.

The hand wringing was for naught. Was Joe Biden more "authoritative"? Well, the guy has been in the U.S. Senate for three decades, so come on. But overall, I was surprised about how they went head to head.

That said, the electoral map looks terrible for McCain. And let's face it, tonight wasn't a game-changer, because the fundamentals have shifted.

But this nonsense about Palin being some sort of "incurious" feckless hick with a low IQ just because she's not a legal scholar, a foreign policy think tank expert, or that she didn't hitchhike across Europe as a youth?

Done. That should be over now.

Rod: "I thought Biden was much better on substance, but Palin was a far, far cry from the Quayling goof of her network interviews."

Biden's been on the national scene for 30+ years and Palin's been on it for 30+ days. She's been speeding up a steep learning curve these past 30 days and handled herself brilliantly tonight. Her capacity to grow is far greater than Biden's. She'll be a heck of lot smarter 30 days from now than she is today ... but how much smarter will Biden be?

Rod, good luck with your GMA interview. Enjoy the fun ... while it lasts.

BTW, I get that you find her chirpiness "annoying." But "DEEPLY annoying?" What's up with that attitude?

"You have a certainty: Obama-Biden=terrible for the country, especially on the foundational issue of life."

Are you kidding me? Do you actually believe McCain or Palin supports life? I know the context that you are using life in but seriously. I can honestly not understand the reasoning of republicans who cling to their pro-life stance to the exception of everything else. It is not a matter of pro-life or pro death the matter is -CHOICE- which based on the tenets of the christian faith which conservative republicans base their pro-life stances on is of utmost importance.

Hey, "Rufus", some of us "sophisticates" and "cosmopolitans" are actually happy that Palin didn't make an enormous ass out of herself at this thing. I don't agree with her policies, but it was looking like this campaign was going to ruin her entire political career. It's nice to see she pulled it out, and gave America something to watch and from which to learn about the candidate's positions.

As for the rest, I certainly don't see her as winning. Frankly, it was close. She recited her talking points, as did Biden, and neither made fools out of themselves. She misstated a number of issues, including the name of the general in charge in Afghanistan, and the number of troops in Iraq, but compared to her recent television performances, it was an immense improvement.

Your endless whining venom about how you're put down by elites, combined with your tendency to name-calling and throwing words into your opponent's mouths, is immensely tedious and destroys whatever little credibility your points may have, and is the major "white whine" accessible to those of us who read this blog.

I didn't watch the debate, and I would not have as I honestly cannot stand Palin's voice and mute her whenever she comes on anything. (I do the same to Obama because hot air does not impress me much either.) But from what I have seen of the afterburn, neither candidate showed themselves to be the fools they were born as. Palin did not speak in tongues, Biden did not trip over his wife's name. Thus lacking in comedic value, the debate will be soon forgotten as McCain closes another state office following Michigan today.

If he wins I may consider joining Palin's church because it will be a genuine miracle.

This piece/page is a joke. Calling this anything but an old-fashioned whipping makes you a nimrod, nimrod. Do you even understand the concept of a debate? She looked like just what she is; he looked like just what he is. In that respect, it was a good debate.

However, the fact that he operated like an experienced debater and statesman was in glaring contrast to the fact that every time she opened her mouth it was the same output: Recite, ramble, fail in pretending to be convincingly folksy instead of an ambitious upstart and political opportunist who is in well over her head. She failed to even attempt to answer most questions (it's beyond a joke for her to try to float "not answering the way you expect" as sufficient for not even attempting to answer the questions) and in a forum in which she actually had to fill more than a minute or two without bumper-sticker blather there is no doubt in most people's minds that witnesses would see more of her pathetic silence as mask for ignorance.

It doesn't wash, whomever you are. It's a shame they're giving you a forum on a nationally televised show so you can carry water for someone who actually manages to make George Bush, Jr., look like less of a dimwit and a "Maverick" who has so obviously sold his soul that it will someday soon be remembered with all the head-shaking of Howard Dean blowing a legitimate shot at the Democratic nomination over a stupid momentary lapse of gravitas. Only with McCain, it's a guy I could have voted for 8 years ago, before he became the slime that did him in back in 2000...

Rod, I fear I'm also in the camp of "can you please give this Palin thing a rest?" All us verbose people are about verbosed out on this one. Please, November 5th, just freakin' get here already.

Rod, what do you make of her answers regarding civil rights and same-sex couples? It seemed that, by the end, Biden and Ifil had her agreeing that same-sex couples should be granted full civil rights. How do you do this without civil unions? I support these rights, and I support gay marriage, so it's hard for me to understand how social conservatives like yourself respond to an answer like that; I was surprised to hear it from her. She seemed kind of lost on that one. I'm curious to hear the thoughts of anyone here regarding that.

On the whole though, I think she did well. How could she not, with expectations so low? In the end, I don't think anyone will be talking much about this debate a weeks from now, which is probably good for both campaigns.

Interesting, FOX has Palin winning the debate 86-12% CNN has Biden winning 56-20. As far as Palin making the comment about fact checking, Biden said 10 things that were utterly false and 6 other things that were arguable. Palin said nothing that was false and only a few things that were arguable. She had her facts down, all the way to her support in Alaska to supporting the victims in Darfour.

Hey Rod, one year there were no ducks during the season so I went crow hunting at the request of an owner of a pecan orchard. I told this to an old Cajun who replied, "de don test dat gud, bot de mek a gud grevvy". I hope that gravy tastes good on your crow.

I have sucha girl crush on Palin. To me she can do no wrong. It's agut-level, knee jerk reaction, devoid of rational analysis -- she is me! I don't care if she can't tell Palestine the country from Palestine, Texas, but then, she had me at "Down Syndrome Baby."
~~ Devout Catholic Mom of 3

This is my favorite part:

"IFILL: Next question, Governor Palin, still on the economy. Last year, Congress passed a bill that would make it more difficult for debt-strapped mortgage-holders to declare bankruptcy, to get out from under that debt. This is something that John McCain supported. Would you have?

PALIN: Yes, I would have. But here, again, there have -- there have been so many changes in the conditions of our economy in just even these past weeks that there has been more and more revelation made aware now to Americans about the corruption and the greed on Wall Street.

We need to look back, even two years ago, and we need to be appreciative of John McCain's call for reform with Fannie Mae, with Freddie Mac, with the mortgage-lenders, too, who were starting to really kind of rear that head of abuse.

And the colleagues in the Senate weren't going to go there with him. So we have John McCain to thank for at least warning people. And we also have John McCain to thank for bringing in a bipartisan effort people to the table so that we can start putting politics aside, even putting a campaign aside, and just do what's right to fix this economic problem that we are in.

It is a crisis. It's a toxic mess, really, on Main Street that's affecting Wall Street. And now we have to be ever vigilant and also making sure that credit markets don't seize up. That's where the Main Streeters like me, that's where we would really feel the effects."

Unreal. It's complete blather.

I think when people start reading transcripts and analyzing what Gov. Palin actually said(the way she didn't answer questions, the way she ignored questions, the way she groped for words and sentences that had no meaning or substance), it will become a much larger win for Joe Biden.

I give her props for not falling apart, but gosh, I really would have liked her to actually answer some of the questions asked, cause I wanted to know her position. I am not sure if she answered the way she did to get all her talking points out (free advertising)or because she did not know how to answer the questions asked, or a combination of both. I did notice that apparently no one has YET told her the actual duties of the VP - that was one question she did answer and kind of was all over the place on it - maybe that is how she would have been if she had answered the other questions? I just do not know.

Makes me wonder if there are hours of Couric/Palin videotape that are not published. The Palin we saw tonight was NOTHING like what CBS gave us last week. She could not have learned that much in such a short time.

Even so, Palin only spouted reliable Republican bromides. She is a charmer tho, eh. Two lefties I was with tonight each swore she actually winked at them.

I still cannot vote for her, but she is not the blithering idiot I tought she was earlier today. Shallow, vapid, able to spout talking points - but not a total idiot.

Neil Young - The Field of Opportunity

I've been wrong before and I'll be there again,
I don't have any answers my friend
Just this pile of old questions
My memory left me here

Sarah Palin lost me forever tonight.

Late in the debate Joe Biden had just finished talking about his family, his dad, his dead wife and daughter, his sons, and had just talked about how a man can know what it's like to raise kids in difficult circumstances, and how he understood what it means, and Governor Palin went directly to a smiling talking-head local-news recitation of her next talking point as if that moment had never existed.

She reminded me of Don Henley's lyric: "She can tell you about the plane crash with a gleam in her eye."

The human emptiness of the moment reminded me of Dukakis, at which point I knew that I could never support Sarah Palin for anything.

Ignorance can be cured with education, shallowness is forever.

I'm glad that Palin didn't turn into a trainwreck at the debate (I thought both candidates did a better job than their "superiors" did at their debate). Still, it was too little, too late. McCain voted for that bailout bill, and I've changed my vote to "Libertarian."

Rod, I can hardly believe that tonight's performance (and yes, it WAS a performance) by Sarah Palin is enough to sway you from your previous and correct position: that Palin is woefully unfit for office.

It would appear that you're giving Palin bonus points for not running off the stage weeping or having some other meltdown. Do you set the bar so low for this VP candidate that an absence of her usual incoherence deserves a passing grade?

Reality check: what we saw tonight was "scripted Palin," no different than her RNC speech, except it was somewhat memorized. So memorized, in fact, that Palin frequently addressed questions with answers that had zero to do with what was asked. What we saw on Couric was the REAL Sarah Palin, unscripted and not stuffed full of pre-rehearsed talking points.

On the accent. Alaska must have several different accents because what I saw from Alaskan debates her opponents do not have that accent.

I had thought that the debate would be between the Bimbo and the Blatherskite. I was wrong.

The Bimbo was the Blatherskite.

Well, I think she did exactly what I thought she would with a few extra surprises. The surprises - not so good. That fake "folksy joe six-pack" crap just does not do it for me. All I can see is her sitting in a meeting with let's face it mostly men a winkin' and a grinnin' to get her way. It is not professional & if you watched the bottom of the screen did NOT affect how people were reacting to her in real time. They also did not react so well when she got her little jabs in either. I thought that the McCain camp would have learned that from McCains first debate.

I am sorry but I just can't get over the fact that she seems so "fake" for a better word. I just can't imagine any other of the other completely qualified women that McCain could have chosen sounding like her. I mean could you imagine anyone else doing this? I am pretty sure that I am not the only woman thinking this. She reminds me of George Bush in a dress and besides this we've already had a president that sounds like "Joe six-pack" & enough is enough.

However, since I have a gay son I am glad to see that she thinks he should have the same rights & rights as married couples even though the law will not be changed to define marriage:) Can't wait to see the backtracking on this one. I can just see McCain going back to the principal's office with her to explain what she really meant.

And I am so glad that McCain cared enough about the mortgage crisis to sound the alarm two years ago. Hellooooooooo, if he thought it was so bad then why didn't he show us that he was the maverick that he is & actually do something about it. What did Sarah say? No one else was interested so he just left it there. That is not a maverick in any sense of the word!

My guess is that Biden wins on substance, Palin on style... But overall, it was a win for Palin, because she didn't lose...

That's a pretty low standard for 'a win'.

I'm a substance over style kinda guy myself.

If you have seen her previous interviews and wanted her to do well you would likely been happy with her performance last night. It was much better than what we have seen. If this had been your first exposure to her, however, she was less than impressive. My apolitical husband who hasn't been paying attention to the campaigns at all had to turn the channel. He said he couldn't keep watching because he was embarassed for her.

Some thoughts:

The distinction between gay marriage and gay unions: I would think unions would ensure hospital visitation rights, property rights, and insurance coverage, but NOT social security benefits and tax filing status benefits. But I would like to see this spelled out.

Palin on regulation: I like Palin. But as someone generally sympathetic, I can't get over the reflexive bashing of government regulation and intervention — ESPECIALLY when made near simultaneously with

(a) Calls for increasing military involvement in Afghanistan

(b) Praising McCain for calling for increased regulation of the GSEs

(c) Calling for energy independence, which presumably will require heavy government leadership and investment. ("Getting government out of the way" of small business may yield a rich crop of dry cleaners and pizza parlors, but it's not going to build us a new generation of nuclear power plants).

Biden edged out Palin on substance, but was edged out on style, which means Palin scored big. She's still unqualified for the White House, but she did do much better than expected.

As for the substance itself, I find both candidates frightening, especially on foreign affairs. When Biden was challenging Palin to show a difference between McCain and Bush, I had to wonder what difference does HE represent. Oh yeah, he wanted to send NATO into Lebanon to kick Hezbollah out. Gee, that worked out so well for the Israelis, didn't it?

Joe Biden's alleged gravitas was based on a lot of misstatements. There were at least 10 outright falsehoods and probably about half a dozen items that could be quibbled with. Jonah Goldberg on National Review's Corner has some great follow up on that. This is what Biden promotes as "command of the issues".

Palin wasn't perfect either. She clearly has some things to learn and definitely benefitted from the media's portrayal of her as a blithering idiot for 2 weeks. She missed some opportunities. I'm discouraged by her failure to go after the Democrats on their complicity in the Fannie and Freddie malfeasance. I don't know why McCain isn't hitting this every minute of every day.

Also, I don't understand this need to position oneself as either a regulator or a deregulator. Obviously there is good regulation and bad regulation, good deregulation and bad deregulation. But I digress.....

Anyway, I like Governor Palin. I don't think we know enough about her to know if she is "uncurious" and Rod, I don't know how you could possibly "know" this. She is the nominee's pick and I'm not sure what can be gained by poring over opportunities to bash her.

"it was so bad then why didn't he show us that he was the maverick that he is & actually do something about it." anonomom

TR: He's not Emperor of the Senate. He can't make a bill or idea win out by force of will alone. The Republican Senate wasn't with him and the effort died. (I'm not even saying his idea or bill or whatever would've solved anything, it may well have still been too late)

"I don't think we know enough about her to know if she is "uncurious" and Rod, I don't know how you could possibly "know" this." Lisa E.

TR: I think it's called "buyer's remorse." Rod's initial response to Palin was nearly ecstatic. His first statement was "a bold, even electrifying choice" and he titled a post "More Palin love." Then he got disappointed. So the low is as low as the high more or less. You see it in many things. People who thought Bush was the greatest thing since sliced bread in 2000 may now insist he never did anything right ever. (Understand I think he did very little right, but "nothing" would be an exaggeration. Even Harding had good qualities)

My initial response was pretty positive, but I think I was a bit more restrained than Rod.

"I'm quite happy. I think she's not ready to be the candidate, but she's not the candidate. She'll get time to get seasoned matters as VP. Heck he might not die during his term at all. Being mentally fit and healthy at 76 is not that weird these days. I was going to vote for him anyway, but I might donate now which I've never done before. [addendum: I'm not doing that]

Now for the negatives. I worry about her foreign policy inexperience. This could make her look bad in debates. I worry this kills inexperience as an issue, which might damage him. The scandal sounds like much ado about nothing, but a reputation as a dictatorial person who fires at the drop of a hat could bring up Bushite issues. I also worry she's not as good as she sounds."

Then I said how Andrew Sullivan was being a creep about her, which I still stand by.

Then I got kind of disappointed, but as I tried to restrain myself in the first place I think the "fall" was less of a jolt for me.

I get that this is now an approved "palin bashing site" but can hear a bit more from people the total debate? Two people were there, and Biden was good at saying the same exact things that I heard Obama say during his debate.
What about Biden's inaccuracies? The fact that he claims to never have disagreed with Obama in the primaries, the perpetual 95% that is used in Obama's talking points on taxes, the surge...the list goes on.
Sarah hit her talking points by mentioning her primary's name often, how often did Biden feel a need to talk about Obama (the actually man running for president)? Honestly, I thought they both danced around questions in order to DEBATE each other. If the question changed but they wanted to respond on the other's previous answer, they BOTH did it. I didn't mind this. It made pace of the debate move along.

Anyway, I am absolutely stuff with Palin-basing at the moment and would like to get back to our regularly scheduled issue; is Obama/Biden better in the White House than McCain/Palin?

During the debate, I realized I am tired of hearing every minute detail of every petty plan that Obama/Biden have to solve every problem that can possibly exist. No one expects Palin to have all the details down like the lawyers in DC (e.g., Biden, McCain, Obama, ...), so her expressions of her principles and beliefs were refreshing to me.

Guys, I've just deleted several posts because this fight is really dragging the thread down. I'm closing comments. Good work, fellas.

I would ask everyone here to please criticize others respectfully. Add light, not heat, to our discussion.

Again: thread closed.