Sarah Palin = Chief Marge

"Marge" from Fargo knew her stuff...

Rod

Your justifications for CCism, conversion to EO, and your politics are based on externalism. You do not seem to realize that you waste mental energy on the most superficial things. I heard your interview on HH. I read a couple posts here. If anything lacks substance it is your work.

What’s to agonize over? You’re pro-life. (I think.) You don’t have a choice. You cannot morally vote for people who are willing and able to re-define human life. It's a human rights issue that effects all of us.

I could be wrong, but somehow I'm picking up a new theme from Rod. Old theme was "utterly moronic." New theme is "I don't like her accent."

Okay, does no one remember where "gravitas" came from in terms of the conventional wisdom? And WHO was the person over whose gravitas the media first decided to swoon?

Hint: someone that the media, the left, and even many conservatives now compare unfavorably to Darth Sidious.

So PLEASE...let's not get off on gravitas. It was a phony idea eight years ago, that was created only to provide a basis for unfavorable comparison to the top of the ticket. Now it's re-emerged in equally phony way -- to cover for the fact that someone who speaks in slow, measured tones with an East Coast accent is saying things that we would never otherwise accept as good ideas.

I could be wrong, but somehow I'm picking up a new theme from Rod. Old theme was "utterly moronic." New theme is "I don't like her accent."

I don't like her accent, but I didn't like her accent when I was swooning over her. Listen, why is it so hard for you to accept that I simply doubt that she has what it takes to take over from McCain if he were to die or have to resign? Why do you have to invent scurrilous and, frankly, insulting rationales and impute them to me? I expect that from bomb-throwers in this forum, but I don't expect it from you, Houghton.

Pentamom: So PLEASE...let's not get off on gravitas. It was a phony idea eight years ago, that was created only to provide a basis for unfavorable comparison to the top of the ticket. Now it's re-emerged in equally phony way -- to cover for the fact that someone who speaks in slow, measured tones with an East Coast accent is saying things that we would never otherwise accept as good ideas.

It's not a phony idea. I don't like much of what Joe Biden stands for, but I wouldn't worry that the government was in the hands of someone without the seriousness of mind and intellectual depth to govern it if Biden were in charge. I won't vote for him, and wouldn't vote for him, and would likely vote against him if he chose to run for re-election. But I wouldn't worry about him in the same way I'd worry about her on foreign policy, because he's more serious and knowledgeable. I don't know how one could watch the debate last night and come away thinking Palin is on the same page with Biden in terms of knowing about the world outside the US, or that Biden's foreign policy gravitas is simply a function of his accent.

Because he's a conservative, I'm sure Rod's revulsion for Palin's accent is only a small taste of the vitriol on leftist sites like DailyKos. I don't have the heart to go there and look.

But it occurs to me that after 8 years of deriding Bush's Texas accent, the American Left is going to now start heaping scorn on Northern "you betcha!" accents (SNL is already heading down this path).

I don't think this will redound to their benefit, and at some point, the Left is going to run out of American regionalisms to show their disdain for, because they'll have shown their sneering disregard for the entire country.

That will be a good day.

Because he's a conservative, I'm sure Rod's revulsion for Palin's accent

I'm not "revolted" by her accent. It just grates on my nerves. Bush's doesn't. It's what we're used to. I wouldn't vote, or not vote, for any candidate based on his or her accent. You really need to calm down. If she did that "you betcha" shtick in my own accent, I would find it annoying (that version would involve lots of "bless your heart" folksiness, which I would find inappropriate to the seriousness of the present moment).

Houghton -

Reading this blog for as long as I have, I know you're a strong advocate for your positions.

However...

To say that Palin "went toe to toe with a two-time presidential candidate, chair of the Judiciary committee, Inquisitor of Clarence Thomas, and member of the U.S. Senate for three decades plus." is pure sophistry. Palin did not make one substantive point all evening. Not one.

Palin refused to answer questions. Full Stop.

Yes, she was folksy. Yes, she is attractive. Yes, she is comes across as a geunine person.

But...

There is no there there. When discussing the role of the VP, it was obvious she had no idea what she was talking about. When discussing that McKiernan actually said about Afghanistan, it was obvious she was reciting talking points without knowing what she was talking about. When asked to defend McCain's stance on regulation, she refused.

I mean no disrespect, but you certainly are drinking Kool-Aid when it comes to Palin. She, in no way, is ready to be Vice President.

Rod, what do you expect with foreign policy? The woman has FIVE children. Somehow she's balanced that with public office, from the PTA up to governor. She's not a policy wonk, and I wouldn't expect her to be one. You think she has had time to immerse herself in foreign policy? While Biden has sat on committees, she has been running a state government in between doting on her FIVE children.

She also doesn't have your journalist/commentator job, and she certainly has never had time to blog.

I think it's fair to say this about her positions:

-conservative on social/cultural issues (and can convincingly talk about this)

-pragmatic on economic issues (most governors are; so is McCain, though he won't admit it till Nov. 5)

-on foreign policy, she doesn't have well developed views, and we shouldn't expect her to right now. As she is immersed in campaigning and governing, she will develop them. I think she is aware of her limitations and would trust her advisers in case McCain could not complete his term---and 2 or 3 years in, I think she'll be much more well-versed than she is now, only a MONTH in.

Biden's "gravitas" is nothing more than a well-developed ability to BS convincingly. His most weighty and forceful pronouncements were significant distortions of the truth or outright lies.

I agree completely with Rod regarding Biden's gravitas, and with his reaction to the debate in general, including his points about Palin's manner of speaking (it's not the accent, it is her whole way of expressing herself that is just not presidential). I am not voting for Obama-Biden (I'm supporting Bob Barr), but I thought Biden showed himself to be serious, knowledgeable, and ready to be President if necessary. In contrast, Palin was clearly relying on a combination of rote memorization of a few key zingers (the "say it ain't so, Joe, there you go again" moment was especially sick-making), and was obviously reading from cue cards when her memorized points ran out. She was so over-programmed that she did not even manage to show a human reaction when Joe Biden choked up at the memory of the accident in which his wife and daughter were killed, and his son almost died. I watched the debate with fairly conservative friends, and we were all struck by that. As for her pro-life credentials, I give her all credit that is due for having Trig, but it would be nice if she would stop taking that poor baby to late-night events, and letting him be passed around like a football. I am all for having people see him, but she does appear to be using him as a political prop. To be honest, I think the woman should not have run for office until her children, including Trig in particular, were much older. Part of being pro-life is putting your children first after they are born.

snip

Yup, good old Joe rolled out that story right on cue. It's been 38 years since it happened and he still chokes up in the same way and certainly when it suits him. What a phony!

Posted by: Reaganite in NYC | October 3, 2008 11:18 AM

Reganite,

As the risk of being banned, I'm going to call B.S.

I'm so filled with rage at you this moment that it's a good thing I don't know who you are or where you are.

What you posted is beyond reprehensible. It's a shitty thing to say about anyone who has suffered from tragedy.

My wife was murdered 9 years ago. She was six months pregnant with what would have been our daughter. I recently got remarried, and have a wonderful life. But I cry for my late wife and unborn daughter DAILY. You can't even begin to imagine that kind of pain, because if you did, you'd NEVER have posted what you did above. That pain NEVER goes away. Yes, I feel it as strongly as I did nine years ago, and often cannot speak about it without completely breaking down. That woman was my entire life, and I had just finished painting the "nursery", and they were both taken from me, violently, immediately, and tragically.

All I can say is shame on you.

Eddie beat me to it.

Reaganite, that was completely uncalled for. Biden lost his wife and his baby daughter, and nearly lost his two sons. I don't care how long ago that is, it's not something you forget. What a loss, an unbelievable tragedy. And what a jerky thing for you to say, to call this man's feelings into question on this. Any tragedy like this should get a complete pass from anyone with basic human decency. You have no right - nevermind the ability - to read Biden's heart. Shame on you.

As for Palin's five kids and how that somehow renders her incapable of having kept up with even what a politically interested layman would know about foreign policy (much less a professional politician who lives next door to Russia).. how many children does McCain have?

That's right, seven.

Somehow, he's managed to stay on top of foreign affairs and public policy history. Unless you're going to say that only matters for moms, not dads.

You can say it is his job and his experience, however, when a person brings up number of kids that is the excuse (she's got FIVE kids..), that's something that won't change when she's elected.

She had FIVE kids before she was elected, she'll still have them afterwards.

If her KIDS were the reason she didn't have time before, that's not going to change. Where will she find time when the one thing that made it so hard to find that time before is one thing that being elected won't change at all?

Sarah Palin's baby is still nursing so it makes sense for her to carry him around everywhere. And if she is going to have the other kids with her why not the infant? I don't know if CatherineinNY is familiar with large families, but I am, and the baby gets passed around to everybody. Everybody helps out with feeding, diapering, etc. Not a thing about this scenario contradicts what "truly prolife" people do. CatherineinNY, I suspect that you are not prolife, or at least do not vote that way, or else you would not use such a flimsy rationale to knock down Sarah Palin's prolife qualities.

Karen Brown: McCain's 7 kids are all grown and have been on their own for awhile. Palin just gave birth to and is still nursing her 5th. Other than the eldest, the rest of her children are all under 18 and thus consume much of her energy, thoughts, and time. There's just no comparison between McCain and Palin's parenthood.

EddieinCA: My condolences on your loss. Sometimes it's easy to think of politicians as mere talking robots. It's easy to forget that not every emotion they display is there for display purposes.

"I don't like much of what Joe Biden stands for, but I wouldn't worry that the government was in the hands of someone without the seriousness of mind and intellectual depth to govern it if Biden were in charge."

Why not? Because his speech patterns and his sentence structure sound like someone who knows what he's talking about? Intellectual depth? Biden?!?!?

I have to say that neither Palin nor Biden did a stellar job in last night's debate; just like their principals, they both used questions as a launching pad for their own talking points. It was more noticeable with Palin partly because she's not as experienced in the fine art of b.s.ing one's way out of a question, and partly--for me personally, anyway--because Biden's voice is almost as soporific as the voice of a priest in this area whom I won't name but whose homilies always used to strain my ability to follow his point without being lulled into sleepy inattention.

To be honest, I think that debates have been like this for a long time, though. I can't remember the last time a presidential or vice-presidential debate was an actually exchange of relevant opinions and ideas. The liveblogging/instant fact sifting of the Internet media is only going to make debates more cautious and bland instead of less; why risk creating a YouTube moment when you can stick to the script and get the job done?

I do wonder why it's all of a sudden so important for Palin to be a foreign policy wonk. Had McCain selected her to be one, there might be pretty damning evidence that she's not yet up to the task, but it's pretty clear from Palin's own words last night that McCain picked her with an eye to three specific areas: energy policy, reform of government, and representing the concerns of families with special-needs children. McCain's own level of experience in foreign affairs doesn't require him to select a foreign policy expert to balance the ticket, does it?

One last thing: the disdain for Palin's accent--and, worse, the suspicion that her accent and folksiness imply that she's not capable of serious or intelligent work--is truly disturbing. As a midwesterner with relatives in Wisconsin I find Palin's accent less annoying than I ever did Bill Clinton's southern drawl with its own brand of folksy charm, but even as strongly as I always disliked Clinton I can't remember ever saying that his accent proved he was lacking in gravitas or incapable of independent or intellectual thought. Liking or disliking an accent is a matter of personal taste and shouldn't be elevated beyond that; of all the places in America I've been privileged to live, the only accent that ever truly annoyed me was the one sported by my classmates in Atlanta, GA: often I couldn't understand what they were even saying, and I recall my utter puzzlement in being asked on several occasions to lend someone an extra "pin," which was not an article I carried to school. When one frustrated classmate finally said, "No, not a 'pyyiin,' a 'pin,' a 'rrryeyetin' pin'" and demonstrated by making scribbles in the air with an invisible *pen* I finally understood. So judging Palin by her accent is itself an exercise in superficiality, as far as I'm concerned.

To "Catherine in NY," "Eddie in CA," "Anne" and "anonymous" at 11:53 AM.

I'm sorry I offended you. However, you might consider what is more offensive: my comment, or the attempts by certifiably-phony politicians like Joe Biden to wring as much sympathy as possible out of the retelling of personal tragedies.

Unfortunately, Joe Biden has a reputation for talking out of both sides of his mouth on every conceivable thing.

What happened to him occurred not 5 years ago, nor 10 years ago ... but 38 years ago. And he tells the story -- and chokes up -- at the drop of a hat.

Sorry you're offended, but I tell it the way I see it.

"Gravitas" as a club for beating candidates over the head really goes back to the 1988 campaign and the so-called "seven dwarfs" running for the Democratic nomination that year. Lance Morrow wrote this column for Time on the subject that year. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,966995,00.html

Is anybody else worried about Trig's little ear tubes? Every time she steps off a plane carrying that baby, I can't help but think of his little ear tubes and his respiratory system. My grown-up ear tubes don't fare all that well during flights, and I'm always having to be careful not to catch a cold with that nasty recirculated plane air. I keep wondering why the little guy's not at home with grandparents while the family travels.

ReaganiteNYC yesterday, on Rod's posting the "Patriotic Drunk Rednecks" video:

What's happened to you? Why post this? It's nothing short of demeaning. Why are you and many of the posters here make fun of these pitiable people when we should be praying for them? Does this really belong on a "conservative" blog on a "religious" website?

Rod took the video down after having a change of heart.

Today, when people call RNYC out for making fun of Joe Biden getting emotional when talking about his son nearly dying in the car crash that killed his wife and one of his children, RNYC responds:

Sorry you're offended, but I tell it the way I see it.

Moral consistency, I guess, isn't one of RNYC's strong suits.

Erin,
I think you should go back and read Rod's second paragraph, in which he allows for the possibility that Palin's folksiness may be hiding the real strength of her character. As Rod points out, the comparison to the Marge Gunderson character is misleading, because Marge was the hero of that story. I don't think Rod is trying to establish a standard here, he's merely giving his impression. Though I sure ain't voting for her, who knows? Maybe she's the future female Reagan.

Exim: "Today, when people call RNYC out for making fun of Joe Biden getting emotional ..."

Whoa, I'm not making fun of Joe Biden for "getting emotional."

Quite the opposite! First, I question Biden's sincerity and the entire premise that he "got emotional." Second, I caution people not to be taken in by this congenital phony and habitual liar.

Next time, Exim, read what people actually write here ... not your wild imaginings of what they meant.

Karen Brown,

Does Joe Biden PRIVATELY grieve at times over this terrible experience -- and tragic loss -- from 38 years ago? One would hope so.

But to pick at that wound in public as he did last night in the debate -- and to conjur up an emotional reaction -- begs skepticism on our part.

Biden -- and no one else -- brought this up last night. It's not as if the moderator without notice asked him about the incident ... and that he was then spontaneously brought to an emotional reaction by the unexpected reminder of this long-buried pain.

No! Rather, he "used" the story to make the point that he's just as much a caring "everyperson" as Sarah Palin is.

What he did was a classic case of emotional manipulation or, as the famous acting coach Sanford Meisner called it, "emotional recall."

Incidentally, a lot of people thought Al Gore did the same thing in his 1992 VP acceptance speech at the DNC.

Roger Ebert on Palin as Chief Marge:

"When she was on familiar ground, she perked up, winked at the audience two of three times, and settled with relief into the folksiness that reminds me strangely of the characters in "Fargo."

Palin is best in that persona. You want to smile with her and wink back. But who did she resemble more? Marge Gunderson, whose peppy pleasantries masked a remorseless policewoman's logic? Or Jerry Lundegaard, who knew he didn't have the car on his lot, but smiled when he said, "M'am, I been cooperatin' with ya here." Palin was persuasive. But I felt a brightness that was not always convincing."

From http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2008/10/you_didnt_ask_me_about_the_deb.html

As a European who has lived and studied in America I am sorry I don't have a vote. I've put my life savings in the US stock market so I do have a financial interest as well as intellectual interest and, I may add, a regard for America that jives very much with that of The Economist.

Your discussion has focused on "he said / she said" things. Many of these may be academic if the people who have financed your debt decide that America is no longer a serious country. Please pay some attention to what people outside America think. It may affect you as surely as the iceberg affected the Titanic.

What I think you will find is an overwhelming preference for Obama. Respect for John McCain went out the window with his cynical VP pick. Ms.Palin has some admirable qualities but she is unqualified to be VP of the United States.

My life savings is nowhere near enough to retire on and I need to grow it not see it collapse with the dollar (which is still very overvalued). I'm in my 50s so I can't afford to be wrong. It seems to me that I could kiss the lot goodbye if McCain were elected. I could be wrong, but I'm not going to take many chances on his temperment now. I do not like or trust what I've seen and his VP is even more alarming. I will not be able to disinvest fast enough if a Republican win looks likely. I would be surprised if I was the only person with such decisions pending.

Beyond the question of money please don't forget that respect for America is at a low ebb: kidnaping, torture, Geneva convention, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo etc. America's reputation is IN THE GUTTER. You could have solved world poverty with what you have wasted on war, but America remains by a large margin the meanest developed nation on earth. Go to poverty.com and dig if you doubt it. If these are temporary aberrations this is bearable.

I hope you will not find America written off where we hoped it would bounce back and revert to being a country we admire.

RinNYC,

Man, I've read your posts on this thread and each one has me seconding EddieInCa's sentiments. By the end I'm just shaking my head in disbelief.

I don't like the idea of writing what I'm about to write, but what the heck it is anonymous and I think you and anybody that agrees with you needs to be exposed to a different perspective.

My little sister fell out a window and died on impact while away at collge. We were very close. Its been 10 years, and every time somebody asks me if I have any siblings I choke up. Sometimes I have to wait a decent interval and go find a place to cry. I don't expect that to change any time soon. The pain doesn't go away, and sometimes you feel a wave of emotion that you just can't keep a lid on. The emotion is heightened during life's major milestones. In the weeks leading up to the aniversary of her death I'm likely to shed a tear from driving past roadkill.

Participating in America's most watched vice-presidential debate in history certainly qualifies as one of life's major milestones. Palin was suggesting she understood family struggles in a way the old man senator didn't. But the old man senator had guided his family through tough times too - he had every right to say so. His attempt choke back emotion looked plenty sincere to me. I believe on a night like that 38 years felt like 10, felt like 9, felt like yesterday. I still can't believe the sun came up the day after she died.

His emotion was real. How and when he tells that story is his right - he's earned it. Even if it was a part of his prepared speach its a defining moment in his life. He has as much right to that story as John McCain has to his prisoner of war story. The stories don't, of course, have the same meaning for the men's status as American leaders. But then, Joe Biden doesn't use it the same way. All he was saying was that he knew something of bringing a family through tough times. He's got my respect, and I'm glad I know his story.

"anonymous" at 5:28 PM (Oct. 3, 2008:

"I can't think of ugly enough words to describe her, but based on responses like Reaganite's I guess she's right in line with the (lack of) compassion of many people."

Lack of compassion? No, I have compassion for "Biden the person" who grieves privately (one hopes) over his loss of 38 years ago. I certainly have compassion for people who, like Biden, still grieve over the loss of a loved one. Who among us hasn't experienced this kind of loss?

But I don't have compassion for "Biden the politician" who "uses" this story -- and the objectifies these dead members of his family -- in order to score a political point.

Call me old-fashioned, but I am one of those folks who winces every time someone gets on one of these day-time talk shows and lays out -- for the whole nation to watch, hear and consume -- their troubles and emotional pain. This Oprah-as-confessor mentality, where people objectify their troubles and trade them in for 15 mintues of fame, is dehumanizing. But it is apparently the fashion of the times and explains why a Biden feels it necessary to "share" his burdens with the whole nation. On cue. At a nationally-televised VP debate.

"Sure, and if he's elected VP, you'll be hearing multiple retellings of "his story" straight from the mouth of Joe Biden in the years to come.... But don't think for a second that Joe Biden doesn't know that. And work it to his advantage.

Let's change these words a bit, in "sauce for the goose is sauce for the
gander mode":

"Sure, and if he's elected POTUS, you'll be hearing multiple retellings of "his [POW] story" straight from the mouth of John McCain in the years to come....
But don't think for a second that John McCain doesn't know that. And work it to his advantage."

The inherent hypocrisy in your argument, Reaganite, is that you immediately assume it's insincere not because you have some heightened ability above everyone else to tell that it is but simply because you don't like the messenger. If Sarah Palin had brought up a similar story in her life (assuming she had one) would we even be having this conversation?