Saving the souvlaki from the "Religious Right"

This is interesting, Rod.

When I first converted to Christianity after years as an atheist two years ago, I spent a lot of time thinking about what sort of Christian fellowship I needed to be around.

I settled on Orthodoxy for a variety of reasons. I tried numerous times to contact three local Orthodox churches in my surrounding community to see about attending services. To no avail. No response.

Finally, a year after my conversion and after much reflection, I happened on an evangelical house church in my community, and I've attended since then.

The road diverged. One path, Orthodoxy, was "blocked" at least figuratively by a puzzling silence. The other path, house church evangelicalism, welcomed me with open arms.

And that has made all the difference.

Alas, this attitude is reputedly quite prevalent among the Greek Orthodox laity and many of its clergy as well. If it were not for the fact that it is subject to the Ecumenical Patriarchate, the GoArch would be on its way to Episcopal Church-style theological liberalism, and what a slender reed the Patriarchate is! I often distrust evangelical converts to Catholicism or Orthodoxy because they tend to remain, at their heart, sectarian Protestants with icons and incense, but better impertinent and obnoxious evangelical converts than the private ethnic club. And Mr. GREEK otheedoxsomethingorother, while I am too dismayed by overly politicized Catholics/Orthodox please spare me the "theocrat" line, since last I checked, the Church of Greece was a state church and had much more direct influence of the affairs of state than ogres like Gary North or the late D. James Kennedy ever dreamed of.

Oh, come now, Mark, my half-breed brother in Christ, we're really just mad about the endless casseroles. Catholics don't even do coffee and doughnuts well**, you know, and when you converts start showing up with all those crumb-or-fried-onion-topped creamed chicken hot dishes and accompaniments of odd-flavored Jello-rings with the expectation that people who go to church together might could oughta maybe stand to sit down to a meal and a chat on occasion after and even completely outside of Sunday Mass--well, it makes our parking lot Gran Prix events seem just a little un-neighborly.

**my current parish excepted; clearly, there's something wrong with us.

;)

we were kings and gods in the world we knew and now are full of rage because we cannot dominate the Catholic Church

;-)

This reminds me of what Lytton Strachey, in Eminent Victorians (in the section on Cardinal Manning) had to say about Newman: That as a prominent Anglican flirting with Catholicism, Newman was regarded as important and was sought out, and received a lot of attention. The moment he became Catholic, he became unimportant.

I remember a few years ago the Greek O's gave some kind of very high honor to Paul Sarbanes, one of the most pro-abortion politicians in the US. Some other Orthodox protested, but it was pretty clear the Greek O's only thought that because this man was rich, famous, and powerful, and a member of their church, that he should be honored. It would be like Southern Baptist's giving their highest honor to Clinton or Gore at their annual convention, something that would never happen.

It is unfortunate, but to those on the outside, the Greek church seems to be all about "making it in America" and celebrating the riches of their, admittedly, very financially successful membership. A Greek ethnic country club seems more like it.

Hi David,

I'm curious about the Strachey comment "The moment he became Catholic, he became unimportant." No less than Pope Paul VI said that Vatican II was "Newman's Council."

I'm not RC, so I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm a bit perplexed, that's all.

I kind of understand why Lytton Strachey said what he did in his 1918 book. Still, he should have waited 40-50 years to see Newman's impact before rushing to hasty judgment.

My $.02 worth.
John

The Souvlaki line is a howler.........

Rod,

You might be subject to disciplinary action by the OMOGENIA Police for inciting hatred. Afterall, talking about American Orthodoxy or trying to hold Greek Orthodox leaders accountable with serious questions gets you tossed in the canonical Klink with such folks as Fr. John Peck.

And on the subject of Fr. Peck: We are praying for you and stand with you! You are a very brave man!

I kind of understand why Lytton Strachey said what he did in his 1918 book. Still, he should have waited 40-50 years to see Newman's impact before rushing to hasty judgment.

Well, considering that if Strachey had waited 40-50 years he would have been dead ...

I don't think he was trying to assess Newman's legacy, which I think did not interest him. After all, he was writing a biographical sketch of Manning, not of Newman; and since Manning was a prominent Catholic convert in 19th-century England, he couldn't fail to mention the other really prominent one, Newman, esp. to highlight the contrast between their careers. In saying that Newman became unimportant when he became Catholic, he was talking about Newman's contemporaries and his (Newman's) own time. And when Newman became Catholic, many of his contemporaries ceased to pay attention to him.

Many of new co-religionists didn't pay much attention to him, either. Strachey remarks that Newman attempted to make various suggestions to Vatican officials; and after being repeatly put off (politely), Newman "was horrified to discover that the problem was not that they objected to his ideas; for them, the problem was that he had ideas in the first place." (Sorry, I'm quoting from memory, so I don't vouch for the verbal accuracy of the quote, but I definitely remember the tenor of Strachey's comment.)

A former supervisor of mine, a convert to Catholicism who had been raised a Lutheran, said that he admired Manning more than Newman. Newman was responsible for the conversion of a small number of intellectuals; Manning was responsible for the conversion of large numbers of working-class people.

I'm sorry to be reminded that Pope Paul described Vatican II as "Newman's Council", since I like Newman and don't like most of the fruit of Vatican II. Actually, I think that if Newman could see a lot of what has happened in the Catholic Church since Vatican II, he would be disappointed and appalled, esp. at the general loss of the sense of the sacred. I think Newman was also opposed to religious liberalism in many ways. It was actually Manning whose approach more closely reflected what has come to be known as the "social Gospel"; he would probably be embraced more enthusiastically by proponents of the so-called "spirit of Vatican II."

What this person seems to forget is that if it was not for us converts the Orthodox Church would have withered on the vine a long time ago. It is people like this that give Orthodoxy a bad name. Besides I am surprised he wrote in English. I thought Greek was the official language of the Orthodox Church? Oh ya that's right unless your Greek your nothing.

From lancelot lamar:

I remember a few years ago the Greek O's gave some kind of very high honor to Paul Sarbanes, one of the most pro-abortion politicians in the US.

Yes, indeed - the Ecumenical Patriarch made him an Archon of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, this in spite of the fact that on May 20, 1997 (and again on September 18, 1998) he was (along with Senator Olympia Snowe of Maine, another Orthodox Christian) among the minority of senators who voted against a ban on partial-birth abortion.

For readers of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese's newspaper The Orthodox Observer, there was a nice, though unremarked, irony in the September 2006 issue (available at www.goarch.org/en/news/observer/pdf/2006/06-09-SEP.pdf). On page 8 was a three column story with photo headed "Sen. Sarbanes Honored at Opening Keynote Breakfast". Part of it read:

"Metropolitan Demetrios of Sevasteia read a letter of congratulations from Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, which said in part, 'You are one such loving and faithful son of our Ecumenical Patriarchate. You have utilized your ability for the common good.' The Metropolitan also noted Sen. Sarbanes long years of support for the Patriarchate and presented sen. sarbanes honored at Opening Keynote Breakfast the senator with the Cross of the Great Church of Christ. Archbishop Demetrios presented Sen. Sarbanes with a replica of the feather pen
and inkwell used by the Founding Fathers to sign the Declaration of Independence."

Juxtaposed with that story, a column on the left summarized the resolutions approved by the 38th Clergy-Laity Conference, which took place in Nashville in July - among them was the following:

"Delegates express solidarity with SCOBA and other initiatives that protest abuse and violence toward children."

It is unfortunate, but to those on the outside, the Greek church seems to be all about "making it in America" and celebrating the riches of their, admittedly, very financially successful membership.

To those of us on the inside, too, sometimes. Whatever his sins in the recent financial scandal in the OCA, Met. Herman is to be commended for attempting to increase Orthodox witness against the sin of abortion.

There are two Greek parishes in the Portland area. One of them is very convert friendly and is growing rapidly. The other is lavishly endowed and puts on a terrific Greek Festival and is dead as a doornail. We went there a couple of times on our journey into Orthodoxy, and found that nobody would talk to us, as we don't look sufficiently Mediterranean. Once a year one can get really good gyros there, but the days we visited, nobody went up for communion.

As a convert to Orthodoxy (from a smattering of PoMo churches, and originally a C of C member) and member of a GOC parish (and we're 80% converts), I don't see this "dominionism" going on to any significant degree.

It is true that the Orthodox Church is not a political entity, and should not be expected to take a "side" in our current state of divide-and-conquer American politics. And I don't think we are.

My parish has, by my estimation, an equal measure of Democrats and Republicans, and those political lines are irrespective of ethnicity. However, I do think it's right for the Church to speak out about unjust war, abortion, euthenasia, ESCR, environmental stewardship, etc., not for the purpose of establishing itself as a political voice/force (though I'm not sure that's 100% bad, it just shouldn't be much of a priority), but as an outpouring of its anthropology, its theology, its orthodoxy and orthopraxy, to its parishoners, visitors, and its respective community.

The comments in these forums feel rife with tu quoque logical fallacies, though. The Orthodox Church isn't her leaders, except for Christ. We're conciliatory. We have hierarchs and authorities, but we the laity, by the Holy Spirit, have corrected them a time or five in our long, long history. We're not above criticism as we do have many, many problems (what can I say? We're struggling along the path to perfect communion with our Savior; we have not arrived). And this may be a PoMo dodge, but those who criticize (both within and without) must not judge or characterize us in so crystallized a fashion, or they will find that their characterizations break down rather quickly.

Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on us!

Scott Walker: Is St. John the Baptist the healthy one? (Hope so, since I have some friends there.)

Richard

Mark and Kathleen Powell are my friends at St. John. They're a large part of the reason my wife and I converted in the first place.

Richard

Observations from a Greek Greek Orthodox

Upon reading this article and subsequent comments, I must say I was dismayed but not surprised. The amount of misunderstanding and judgment is almost farcical coming from those who have chosen to convert to Orthodoxy. Do none of you see the irony of converting to a religion because you believe it to be the right one and then proceeding to disparage its caretakers of 2000 years? Isn’t it human nature for those caretakers to bristle when being criticized by newcomers? And I’m not speaking of souvlaki jokes. The Greek ethnos would not have lasted all these thousands of years without a sense of humor.

One thing some converts do not understand about Greeks is that Orthodoxy is in our blood. It is an inextricable part of being Greek. It is in our language, poetry, literature and music. We live and breathe it continually. Even the few Greek “atheists” I know, know the liturgy by heart and well up whenever they hear the hymns.

My particular church has many converts (including one of our priests who was formerly a Baptist minister), and the liturgy is mostly in Greek as well as the hymns. Our converts are beloved members of the community. They also appear to enjoy helping put on our festivals and having their children dance with ours. If Greek music and food is not your thing, that’s fine. But the money raised does go to the church.

I believe we are right, as a church, to stay away from abortion as a political/legislative issue. It is not the same as the other political issues mentioned because it is a deeply personal one. Very, very few women have an abortion without considering the graveness of it. And I, as a Christian woman, would never judge a woman in that unenviable position.

Regarding Greeks having a long memory, I have to say that is true. That is why issues like the name of the Former Yugoslov Republic of Macedonia and Turkey’s entrance into the EU are important. As far as all Greek-Americans being democrats, that is untrue. I would say we are about evenly divided. The difference between Greeks and non-Greeks on party politics is stark, however. We can have a very heated discussion and still remain good friends. (Note to John C.: There is remarkably little Greeks don’t understand.)

To clarify a few points, newer Greek passports do not state the holder’s religion. There was a discussion several years ago, however, if it should be included on European ID cards, but it never was.

The term “Greek Easter” is a colloquial term among Greek-Americans. In Greek we don’t say “Greek Easter” we just say “Pascha”, not even “Orthodox Pascha” because there is only one.

Only those who misunderstand us have a problem with the “omogenia”. Although I am sure I won’t be able to enlighten anyone on that subject here, I can’t let it go without comment. It was the Greek Orthodox Church that kept our language and traditions alive under unspeakable oppression, and in turn, Greeks kept Orthodoxy alive. It is only natural for people with similar language and traditions to congregate. The fact that Greeks are being criticized for being “ethnic” by non-Greek members of the Orthodox faith is unfortunate, but it is human. And Greeks have understood humanity better than anyone else for millennia.

We are very generous and hospitable. But if we welcome you into our home and you immediately begin to scold, we might get a little annoyed. We may be Orthodox, but we are not saints.

Gorgona's is a nice post that really sincerely addressed the issue at hand. And I, like you do not want to judga anyone in this situation.

However, I believe far more than just a few make this decision without having a clue as to its graveness - and this is our real challange as Christians. As far as the political side of this goes, too many on both sides of the political spectrum declare their "beliefs" without caring to truly understand the issue moraly but are more concerned with estimating how many votes it will translate into.

In addition to these points I would like to add comments on "Greek" Orthodoxy. Please do not take this as a criticism, but in christian love toward "oneness" in Christ. Some points that may have missed the mark are:

1) You state a previous poster criticizes the caretakers of the last 2000 years. As Christians I would hope that the belief should be that Orthodoxy is true Christianity and true Christianity belongs to everyone so everyone is allowed to express beliefs. Criricizing newcomers this way says a)we are not open minded so you have to fear voicing an opinion (we should respond through appropriate discussion of the topic) b)if you want to join ok,but please don't help any of us on our journey to true Christianity, we are already perfect without you(you have no value to us, but we to you).

2) It was not the Greek Othodox Church that kept orthodoxy alive, but rather The Orthodox Church in Greece. I like to believe any true Christian regardless of ethnicity would endure suffering to safeguard the message. And it was truly a great service done by the Greeks during their time, but the same can be said for the Russian Church and others during a different periods of time. Many have suffered all over for the sake of The Name - No one group can claim to be the sole caretakers for an entire 2000 years.

3) To even use the term "Greek" Easter, etc. even if only in America, is the true misunderstanding. The term should be Orthodox Easter as a comparison to others such as RC. Using "Greek" in the term is exclusionary and separatist. I appreciate Orthodox being in your blood, this is to be commended as well as your pride, but the whole point of Christianity is it belongs to all and should not be labeled after any ethnicity which might preclude others rather than welcoming them under your terms not Gods.

4) Trying to have an open mind towards your desire to have people of similar language to congregate, I still beleive to have a separate Greek Church in America is just not right. This is more akin to a "club". That is, (ie) we only want you to join if you sing our Greek songs. Throughout the history of this country groups have come over and congregated because it helps all learn to cope in a new environment, same with my German ancestors. But in order to spread The Word in their new country they moved to all English services and called their Churches "Lutheran" not the German Lutheran Church of America. The Orthodox Church throughout history recognized this important fact, translating services and hymns as they moved (through Serbia, Macedonia, Russia, etc.). So you move to the US you keep the old language to cope and for historical purposes, but is crucial to move past that identifier as the main identifier of your Church.

5) Having separte Orthodox "clubs" overlapping the same areas does not follow the Original Founders of the autocephalis church concept and leads to the confusion of others we try to bring into the true faith.

6) We re "Orthodox, but we are not saints." All Orthodox Christians goals should be toward this end. The goal is towars self deitification, so in discussion this is not a proper reason to tell someone off. We should discuss in love toward one another toward the enlightenment of all.

Thank you for letting me share my views. By the way... I was raised RC and currently am not a member of any church although I am considering Chrismation into Orthodoxy.

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