Black Friday mob kills Wal-Mart clerk

"What sick, wicked culture produced such people?"

Dunno. Maybe the same sort of culture that produces crushing mobs at European soccer stadiums, or Indian train stations.

The US is hardly unique, we just thought we were. The rules of sociology apply even here. Shocking!

Does anybody else feel threatened and claustrophic in large crowds of people? I hate loaded airplanes, rock concerts, large churches, college football games, and Wal-Mart after Thanksgiving. Some people seem to get a big charge out of these things, but now I'm thinking that agrophobia may be nature's security alarm.

Let it be noted -- for whatever it's worth -- that this stampede took place in among the "bluest" of the "blue" states and that it ought to be assumed that a large majority of those who took part in the stampede cast their Presidential votes for the Reverend just three weeks ago. Which is not at all is to suggest that anyone other than vulgar, bitter, money-grubbing, bible-thumping "rednecks" in the "red" states is ever to blame at all for any ill that now or ever has afflicted our society.

Before I looked at the pictures, I knew the crown wasn't made up of Norwegian-Americans.

We've been sweeping the questions of social order and discipline, and where they are lacking, under our collective rug for too long.

"Let it be noted -- for whatever it's worth -- that this stampede took place in among the "bluest" of the "blue" states and that it ought to be assumed that a large majority of those who took part in the stampede cast their Presidential votes for the Reverend just three weeks ago. Which is not at all is to suggest that anyone other than vulgar, bitter, money-grubbing, bible-thumping "rednecks" in the "red" states is ever to blame at all for any ill that now or ever has afflicted our society."

Wow. Just...wow. Come down off the cross, Rufus.

Mike

This took place near me, and I have actually shopped at that location in the past. Valley Stream, although located in Nassau County boarders Queens and most of the shoppers in the shopping area (Green Acres Mall) come from Queens and not the suburbs. That Walmart has always been busy, the few times I have been there I have had to circle for atleast 10 minutes to find parking, and usually end up waiting in the checkout line atleast 1/2 hour. It has always been reletively calm and I have never seen seen that kind of mob-mentality there.

Anon, I did however see something similar though at a bridal shop in Manhattan. Brides looking for their perfect gown at the perfect price can be brutal in NYC. Most of these brides, white, afluent and seemingly educated. One tried to elbow me, and several pushed me to get through a couple stole dresses from my rack before I could try them on. Anon, looks can be decieving, and greed affects all people across the board.

For the record, I haven't looked at the pictures of this incident, so I haven't the foggiest clue what the ethnic make-up was of the stampeding crowd.

That said, anyone naive enough to think that a derogatory and politicized regional spin would not have been put on this tragedy had it happened in, say, Tulsa, Oklahoma instead of Long Island, New York is fooling himself or herself.

"Blue" ganders who don't like being sauced should spare "red" geese, if only once in a while.

PS: Also, for the record, it blasphemes Him who bore the cross to imply that I see myself as doing such a thing myself -- and it also mistakes the point of my post.

Chela-

I regularly drive past Green Acres Mall down Sunrise Highway on the way to famliy in the next town over, Lynbrook.

Simply as a white guy I would never shop there. There have been numerous shootings in the movie theater, carjackings, robberies. It's a horribe place. And it is mostly frequented by African-Americans from Queens and Brooklyn who take the Belt Parkway there.

Still the pictures are shocking. What would make anyone leave a warm bed for a few pennies of on junk? I don't understand it.

"Brides looking for their perfect gown at the perfect price can be brutal in NYC. Most of these brides, white, afluent and seemingly educated. One tried to elbow me, and several pushed me to get through a couple stole dresses from my rack before I could try them on."

Um, there's a difference between elbowing someone and stampeding them.

I'll tell you what, people who call me "racist" for stating the obvious, please post a comment when this same things happens to a primarily white establishment.

And to the person who thinks Rod was being racist by referring to a "Black Friday mob," you're an idiot. But at least you're not a racist, so you're still a saint.

I look forward to the day, should it ever come, that we can talk about race in America (including crime statistics) without being labelled racist. The commenters here who called me and another commenter a racist know absolutely nothing about us. My wife, by the way, is not a Caucasian. But I doubt that matters, because my thoughts are not allowed.

sorry folks - that was sarcasm. I thought it would be obvious, because I was layin' it on pretty thick.

Anyway, it's probably worth paying more attention to various cultures that commit certain acts, rather than certain races.

If you take a look at the culture that undergirds such an act, you'll find parallels between a Who Concert and a Wal-Mart trampling. Those parallels are worth looking at. Race is not particularly useful.

This is especially significant in light of our willingness to refer to the "Muslim savages" who carried out the murders in Mumbai. Perhaps we are not issuing proclamations, and perhaps we are not toting guns, but we just killed a man and almost caused a woman to miscarry. The savages are us.

For me, it's disturbing to see some of the comments above along the lines of "these types of people" did it. I'm willing to submit that ANY one of us is capable of crowd murder, whether it's at a Wal-Mart populated by lower class riff-raff, at a Who concert populated by drug-abusing disrespectful kids, or at a church service populated by "good people." As much as we may believe that we're above that, we are not immune to the crowd mentality.

"Perhaps we are not issuing proclamations, and perhaps we are not toting guns, but we just killed a man and almost caused a woman to miscarry."

What do you mean, "we"?

"The savages are us."

What do you mean, "us"?

Speak for yourself, man.

And I would choose a Who concert over a rap or hip-hop concert any day, for safety's sake. Very little gang violence in the former.

Joel "gets it." People who disagree with him, in part because of personal experiences after living a long life, do not.

PS The previous "anon" should be "anonanon."

Thanks, Rod, for posting this. I live about 20 or so miles west of this mall. What happened here was AWFUL. Just another indication of how badly our culture has distorted the original meaning of Christmas as the celebration of the Incarnation.

By the way, Rod, kudos to you for posting/linking here in recent days some great stuff from the First Things blog. Per today's death at the Walmart store in Long Island, "crunchy cons" might want to check out today's offering at the First Things blog where Joseph (Jody) Bottum writes a great piece (though sad reminder) on the way Advent has been crushed by the commercialized Christmas season.

Anonanon, I think mob mentality is just that, a mob. You get enough people people in one place and it can get real chaotic. It doesn't matter their skin tone. Btw, I had a GOOD experience at that store, there are many who get hurt when they are having their "sales" although no one has been trampled (yet). People get hurt during the 'Running with the Bulls' in Pamplona, Spain. They get hurt during rush hour when people are rushing to get to work or back home. It doesn't matter who you are, it can affect anyone.

Bugg, trust me Green Acres isn't my favorite place to shop although I do go there occasionally (mostly during the day). The shops are geared to a more urban audience, I'm not much of a Target or Walmart shopper. I prefer Fortunoff, Nordstrom, etc. However, I've never had an issue at that mall, it is very mixed crowd, but I've never seen it violent. PS It's been a while since they have had a shoot-out at that Sunrise movie theater nearby, that place is truly an awful place and should be shut down. Unfortunately it's the only large movie theater within about a 5-10 mile radius and lots of kids from Queens do go there. I have never been, a place that has metal detectors at the door is not my idea of a nice night out. Thankfully not all of Valley Stream is like that, just that area by the mall.

This event--and some of the comments in this thread--demonstrate cultural failure.

Just to clarify, the "anon" at 2:59 pm was me. The "anon" at 2:27 pm was not.

I agree with those who say that a mob mentality can happen anywhere, with any group. But I just don't think a group of suburban whites would take the hinges of doors, stampede over a clerk or injure a pregnant woman.

Go back a few days to Rod's post on public school day at the Texas State Fair. There were black and Hispanic youths involved. It wasn't a Caucasian gang fight. I don't think that's racist to point it out. Rather, it's a matter of culture. Some cultures value civility more than others.

I think one of the most disturbing reports I've heard on this is that the mob at Wal Mart REFUSED to disperse and leave even after it was announced that there was a fatality at the doorway. It was reported on CNN that people said they had been waiting in line for hours, and they weren't going to leave. Reportedly, many continued shopping and ignored the dead body of the employee on the floor.

smh, *sigh*

Repeat earlier caveats about the tentativeness of the news, although somewhat softer.

Initial witness reports are that they think the California shooting was a shopping dispute:
KEY EXCERPT
Immediately after the shooting, about 20 people rushed into the World Gym across the street from Toys "R" Us, the gym's assistant manager Glenn Splain told The Associated Press in a telephone interview.
"They were crying, tearing and shaking," Splain said, adding that one woman came in cradling a baby.
"Some people got into a fight," said Splain, who spoke with some of the customers. "One of the guys here thought it was over a toy, but it got louder and louder and then there were gunshots."
Sarah Pacia of Cathedral City told The Desert Sun newspaper she was in the store with her two boys, ages 4 and 6, looking at coloring books when she heard a commotion in the next aisle. She thought it was people rushing to get a sale item. Then she heard three or four shots.

If I read accounts correctly, the hinges were taken off the doors by employees inside the store; probably due to the fact that the doors open to the outside and with the huge crowd outside the doors they couldn't open them.

Beyond that, I'm relatively new to this particular blog but my assumption is that the blogger is a conservative Christian. I also apparently incorrectly assumed that those who participate are also Christian. I'm frankly quite appalled to read some of the posts here. To those of you posting who are Christian, I suggest you revisit the gospels when you have some spare time from feeding your prejudices, whether racial or political. This Wal Mart incident, as well as all the rampant consumerism fed by greed, is a commentary on the great failures of our society today. It also says much about the failures of today's Christian church in that Christians have not led the way to a different way of being in this world. The fact that we have rich Christians (shopping until they are exhausted on this very dark Friday) in the time of great hunger and need all around the world including the U.S., is indicative of this failure of the church. How many affluent Christians were out shopping today buying things they don't need and on their way to the store passed the hungry and homeless without even noticing them. Jesus had much to say about Christians today. His words live and they are right on.

"Yourname" at 5:22, the Lord also had some things to say about Pharisees who judge others. It's good to know that some Christians are as holy and righteous as you, and think the right thoughts, and behave the right way. How wonderful it must be to think like you, and be free from all prejudices.
I am a Christian. I have read the Gospels numerous times. Yet I think differently than you. Wow, how is that even possible?

CD: I think one of the most disturbing reports I've heard on this is that the mob at Wal Mart REFUSED to disperse and leave even after it was announced that there was a fatality at the doorway. It was reported on CNN that people said they had been waiting in line for hours, and they weren't going to leave. Reportedly, many continued shopping and ignored the dead body of the employee on the floor.

I saw something like this happen once. From 1995 till 1998, I was a film critic at the Sun-Sentinel newspaper in south Florida. Critics almost always see films in advance of opening, and often they see them with an audience, in a free screening in which passes have typically been given away to the public by radio deejays. One night I was at a theater in Coconut Grove in Miami, getting ready for a free advance screening to start, when there was a ruckus at the front of the theater. An elderly person had had a heart attack. Paramedics were called. As we waited and watched, the victim died right in front of everybody. The screening was cancelled.

But the audience refused to leave! They had been given free tickets to a screening, and even though the event had to be cancelled because a human being had died right in front of their eyes, they would not leave without seeing the movie they'd paid to see -- except, as I said, nobody paid a thing to get in. The theater had to give everybody free passes to a future movie, taking a financial hit that they didn't deserve to take, simply to clear the room of those jerks.

There are 300 million people in the US. That means million to one odds happen three times per day! If you go looking for awful events you'll find them. If you go looking for good events you will find those too.

I don't think it is fair to judge an entire culture or people on the basis of incidents which are part of the long tail of the bell curve like this one obviously is.

I typoed in my last post. It should have said "hundred million to one oddshappen three times per day!" Other than that my point remains.

When a culture genuflects in front of American Idol on tv, then watches as the slick actor tells them all people with class have a certain device they will turn into the animals they are. I see this all the time. Fortunately there aren't that many deaths around, but if there were a death evry time the store opened for a sale people would still take the doors off the hinges, push and shove to get in.

Safety in numbers became a sick joke in ways more than one, as The New York Times reports in a story tailor-made for its Most E-Mailed list:

"At 3:30 a.m., store employees called the Nassau police to report that the crowd was growing quickly, the police said. Officers came by to try to organize the line, but were called away to a Circuit City, a Best Buy and a B.J.’s Wholesale Club nearby, to deal with crowds there..."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/29/business/29walmart.html?em

Re: But I just don't think a group of suburban whites would take the hinges of doors, stampede over a clerk or injure a pregnant woman.

I doubt a crowd of middle class suburban Blacks would either-- while a crowd of poor whites from a trailer park might.

Re: There were black and Hispanic youths involved. It wasn't a Caucasian gang fight.

The Hispanic youth in the post was a random victim.
And for the record the trashiest people I have ever seen in my life (a life which includes a year living in low income, mainly Black housing) were the denizens of a run-down trailer park in St Pete. Every morning going to work I'd see beer-bellied men, no shoes and no shirt, heading out to get their 40 ouncers, and scraggled half-drunk harridans walking God-knows-where with dirty, unkempt brats in tow. (No one had a car there, at least not one that ran. Too poor or too many DUIs). The police were called to the place so many times they should have just set up a sub station there. Two trailers that I know of burned down due to fires started in meth labs. And that trailer park by the way was almost entirely white. No self-respecting welfare queen or sagging-pants homeboy would have been caught dead there

Hey, there was no individual person who chose to trample on another person and kill them.

Just collective crush of a moving lot of humanity whose individuals could neither withstand or hold back the press of those behind who had no knowledge of what was happening.

Should we criticise the rudeness of those who had to shove themseves toward the head of the line? Absolutely.

Should we damn our culture for it? Over my dead body. There are plenty of things which are damnable evils, but this particular bit of horrible chain of events is NOT one of them. Lets reserve condemnation for evil, not dilute the branding on things which are not deliberate evil.

I tend to think that why these people were where they were is irrelevant. And I also think their ethnicity or race is also irrelevant. Crowds can easily turn into mobs regardless of the characteristics of the individual members. The age and gender of the group (watch out for young males) and the presence of alcohol are other factors that can make turning the switch from crowd to mob more likely.

I've been in to situations where a crowd turned into a mob. Once was at a Clash concert in Aylesbury, England, in 1982 (and no, the audience wasn't made up of the oppressed, it was populated by a bunch of middle class kids). The band didn't feel inclined to do an encore so the crowd of a thousand or so decided to rush the stage. I was near the front and I have never been so scared in my life - I honestly thought I was going to be crushed to death. The second was back in my home town of Boulder, Colorado, about ten years ago. I was visiting a professor friend of mine who lives near the university. For some reason, the people, almost all students, who lived on the street decided to have a bonfire of old couches in the middle of the street. The cops and fire department showed and immediately the happy crowd turned very nasty and started pelting the police and firemen with anything they could get their hands on. I've never seen anything like it, a bunch of wealthy and privileged brats turned into a pack of animals in an instance.

The moral is that when you get a bunch of humans together in a confined space there's always the possibility that a mob will raise its very ugly head.

The story from wcbstv.com via the Drudge Report:
http://wcbstv.com/local/walmart.worker.trampled.2.875747.html
The heavy glass and steel sliding doors were literally knocked off their hinges in the shopper-stampede-to-be-first. Then the wave of humaity caved in on defenseless Wal-Mart workers as they opened early -- 5 a.m. -- for the annual bargain hunting ritual that kicks off the morning after Thanksgiving.

"The crowd pushed so forcefully that they crashed the doors down and one of the workers from Wal-Mart was pushed to the floor as the crowd entered the store, many of them running," said Det. Lt. Michael Fleming of the Nassau County Police Department.

Cell phone video obtained by CBS 2 HD shows Jdimytai Damour, a 34-year-old part-time employee hired as a holiday temp. He was crushed in the onslaught and pronounced dead an hour later. As responding Nassau police and paramedics tried to save him, they were also jostled and pushed to the ground.

"The man got trampled, stomped on -- everybody banged through the doors," witness Terrence Howard said.

Witness Kimberly Cribbs said all those people who got in went right on shopping after the worker was run over.

"Oh yes, they're savages," Cribbs said.

We actually did do the Wal-mart opening this morning and I came away impressed with how the local staff handled the crowd-- to wit: let everybody in fifteen minutes early and let them scout around at a slightly calmer pace. Meanwhile, all the specials were on plastic wrapped pallets with an employee standing by with a pair of scissors or a box cutter. At the stroke of five, a PA announcement is made, the music comes on, and the plastic comes off. To be sure, there is some jostling at that point as the people on the inside try to get back out through all the people on the outside, but no mad rush from the doors. Hurt feelings, maybe-- gonna happen no matter what they do. Broken bones and stomped internal organs, no.

From an engineering POV, when a large amount of material is forced through a narrow opening, the force is increased by several orders of magnitude. The same is going to happen when the material is individual humans instead of water in a pipe. With mass psychology tossed in, it is a volatile mix. Wal-mart, especially since they have probably the biggest Black Friday crowds of all, needs to implement policies company-wide, as above, to defuse problems at the door or this will happen again, you watch. As it is, couldn't they be held civilly liable for negligence in handling the crowd? Anyone?

I don't have a racist bone in my body, but--the anti-racists in this comment thread sure have their heads in the sand.

To C-

What would the "anti-racists" see if they took their heads out of the sand?

Both the Wal Mart corporation and those present in the crowd should be charged with AT LEAST manslaughter on this. And I'm sure that, working at WAL MART, the guy didn't have any insurance anyway. So sorry to the surviving family but, hey, you're S**T outta luck. Heres a huge medical bill just in time for the holidays.

In a culture that prizes money above all else (compassion? family? justice? "peace on earth, good will towards men"?), this should come as no surprise.

I agree with the author: The American Idol culture of dollar worship (which includes all of us) will soon be getting what it deserves.