Gay mob assaults peaceful Christians

As much as I support traditional marriage, I gotta think this was an ill advised move -- praying in the street in Castro so soon after the prop 8 victory.

Appalling

I agree with SSM and this is disgusting.

Chris Mills

"Sorry, but the Christianists in this incident are not rocket scientists, going into a neighborhood that is in quite a bit of pain over the vote, and then telling the residents that they can help them pray the gay away."

So was Matthew Shepard "not a rocket scientist" to be in the same general area as the hillbillies who killed him? By the way, I didn't think we were supposed to think of neighborhoods as "exclusive" anymore. I thought we were supposed to have a right to peacefully protest? Let's not get all sanctimonious about ginning up the culture wars, John, because the left is an expert at that. When gays are throwing urine on their opponents, they (and their supporters) shouldn't sit there and scratch their heads about why we think religious freedom issues are at stake.

And you say this after gays actually invaded at least one church, disrupting their ceremonies. Funny--that resembles the "wingnut Christianist" fundamentalists have on occasion done the same in Catholic churches. Ironic, ain't it?

That being said, Rod, you are really trying to gin up the culture war on this. This would NOT have happened had there been no Prop. 8.

And Prop 8 would not have happened if not for the California Supreme Court. You're trying to blame the victims in this incident, and it's appalling. What happened, happened. I was told by a high-profile defender of traditional marriage that some California pastors this person knows are being advised by their local police departments to hire bodyguards. Now I know why.

Generations uncounted of actual spiritual, political, legal and deadly physical assaults on gay people and what is in-italics terrifying is would have, could have, if, is going to? All as evidenced by an admittedly ugly but isolated incident in which no assault occured and second hand news about some pee? Excuse me, but what utter...oh never mind.

Knowing just a little something about the community, I'd say with great confidence that it was the presence of the riot police that gave the mob license to vent in a way they had not the slightest intention of carrying through on. But that's just speculation, and not worth a whole lot.

Right?

Tell me why churches are so obsessed with gays, and with keeping gays as a leper class. As a generous estimate, perhaps 0.05% of the Bible has anything to say on the subject, and even that might well not even be talking about homosexuality per se, but by ritual acts, etc. But by reading conservative blogs you'd think that's a main focus of the Bible.

Thank goodness that responsible public leaders like the Governor of California and the Mayor of San Francisco have spoken out so strongly against this kind of mob intolerance, and the other documented acts of harassment that have targeted old women and churches in recent weeks... Oops, they haven't. Wonder why that could be?

Did Matthew Shepard try to destroy the families of those who killed him? The Right is reaching into the homes of tens of thousands of families and trying to rip them apart. Conservative churches led this mass attack on the family, and members of those churches are surpised that the people whose families they attacked are really, really mad?

Mr. Dreher, how far would you go to protect your family from a group of people that was trying to destroy it? People will go a lot further when they are fighting for their family than for anything else.

Those who crossed the line from shouting and whistling and into violence should be punished. The video should help with that. And fortunately, as others have pointed out, the reaction in the gay community has almost unanimously condemned those who crossed the line into physical violence.

Radicals advocated violence at the same time that Martin Luther King and his associates led peaceful protests, and we don't blame King for the Blank Panthers.

This incident also showed that the police in the center of support for gay families are willing to do their duty to protect even the vile. Good for them.

Hey man, knock it off. This behavior is despicable, everyone agrees. This is rare and you know it. You're trying to vilify the whole of the 100,000+ people who have come out to protest against Prop 8 passing. This has by and large been a peaceful expression of anger and disappointment. And your true anti-gay feelings are becoming more and more evident. You've now referred to gays as nazis and a mob. What else you got?

Have you already forgotten the young woman with the backwards B on her face?

The video just doesn't back up the claims made in Rod's post. Unpleasant, you betcha, frightening, only if you've never been shouted at before. I don't see any physical hurt inflicted on these anti-gay protestors. And what exactly did the expect when they went down to the Castro to sing their songs? They should be thanking God that these gays did nothing to harm them other than hurt their feelings. If they can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

I know how all Christians act, and what a threat they are to peace and harmony, because of this tape.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohKAT6qThgc

I disagree with the analogy to the Orange Order marches. There the orangemen closed down streets for martial parades, pounding drums and singing songs like "Croppies Lie Down," in order to intimidate a whole community of people.

None of these factors indicating group intimidation and the implicit threat of violence were present in this situation. Even still, in this country, the Orangemen would have had the right to march through that neighborhood in this country because of the First Amendment.

These Christians were holding hands in a circle and singing ""Amazing Grace" on a street corner where they go regularly to spread the Gospel. Looks like there were maybe 10 of them. The police had to pull an attacker off of one of the women who asked for a stolen bible to be returned, at least according to their narrative available at a link.

Similarly, I disagree with Daniel's comments that suggests that both groups were equally exercising their rights to express themselves. From the video, it looks like the mob was coming quite close (if not over) the line of unprotected incitement to imminent acts of violence. Such conduct is not protected by the First Amendment, nor is it morally equivalent to singing "Amazing Grace" on a street corner.

It's ugly alright, but it seems to be legal given a recent SCOTUS decision:

"Anti-abortion groups brought the appeal after the appellate court sought to determine whether the injunction could be supported by charges that protesters had made threats of violence. The 8-0 decision ends a case that the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals had kept alive despite a 2003 ruling by the high court that lifted a nationwide injunction on anti-abortion groups led by Joseph Scheidler and others."

Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Abortion Protesters
AP, February 28, 2006
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,186278,00.html

The veil of civility is really quite thin, as comments on this blog make clear. The reality is that civility protects minorities from majorities - if the gloves come off they suffer the most. Therefore it is a very unwise strategy for a minority to pursue practices that undermine basic civility, apart from any moral problems with the practice.

On the one hand, people shouldn't do things to intimidate folks who are peaceably exercising their First Amendment rights.

On the other hand doing the street-corner-preacher thing in the Castro immediately after the Prop 8 defeat isn't exactly the most effective thing a group of folks might choose to do.

Still, they were in the right and the mob was in the wrong.

I was expecting something terrifying and found instead something tame. Bad manners, yes, but as far from terrifying as east is from west.

Good thing you missed the action in the 50s, 60s and 70s or you would've crapped yourself. Those days were terrifying because of the willingness of people to use real violence. You know, guns and bombs, lynchings and assassinations, dogs and fire hoses.

You were in New York on 9/11...now THAT was terrifying.

At the very most this is annoying, but not particularly more annoying than praying on the corner in contravention of Jesus' clear instructions on prayer.

Sally Rogers,

The ruling (SCHEIDLER et al. v. NATIONAL ORGANIZATION FOR WOMEN, INC., et al.) is relevant because Christians can't prohibit Gays from protesting. I'm arguing about what can happen before the fact, you're arguing about what happens after.

Look, I don't approve of this kind of violence. Nor do I approve of crimes against persons because of their race or sexual orientation.

This seems to be an example of empathizing with those most like you. Terrifying, indeed.

I was expecting something terrifying and found instead something tame. Bad manners, yes, but as far from terrifying as east is from west.

Your really living up to your screen name tonight. What would the reaction be if Christians tried to evict gays from a heavily Christian neighborhood?

Having watched that video, i dunno, call me blind or something but i didn't see violence, a lot of hotheadedness yeah, but violence? come on. All i saw was people protesting "Shame On You!" and if these christians were offended by that, tough. Shame on them. They voted discrimination into the constitution. the proponents of proposition 8 used the most shameful tactics to forward their agenda - lies and deceit. SHAME ON THEM. Its convenient how some people have forgotten that not that long ago, it was gays who lived in fear. many still do because of lies and deceit. yes violence is a deplorable act and should never under any circumstances be used, except in self defense where the attacking party is also using violence.

Should the anti-gay christians live in fear? yes - OF GOD. they lied and deceived the voters - they lied about gays, what our marriages would cause, and their whole agenda and purpose was steeped in SIN. something they like to tell us gays about all the damn time. They were/are hypocrites - another sin! so steeped in sin were they, that they failed to see it - it truely beggars belief, and they expect US to believe they are right?!?! I for one will never follow such christians as i know they will only lead me into lies, deceit and more sin. We all know what their God allegedly does to sinners dont we.

Sally,
The SCOTUS in the "Scheidler" case ruled rather narrowly that the Hobbs act (via RICO) does not specifically apply because violence and threats of violence must be made in regards to extortion - that is the seizing of property. In other words, violence (or threats thereof) does not fall within the boundaries of the Hobbs act.

See Rod? The gay marriage movement will never lead to suppression of free speech and if you think different, or even appear to think different, then you have it coming when somebody beats the crap out of you. If people like you hadn't exercised your free speech rights and passed Prop 8, none of this would be happening, so it's your fault. And if you note it on your blog, *you* are ginning up the culture wars.

Man, with mob violence like this I think this years war on Christmas will be the best one yet.

Funny that Christians seem to think a government or laws will ensure them equal treatment in a godless culture, when we are instead told and shown to expect just the opposite response to our faith and presence, considering in whose power the whole world lies.

Wow, this blog went off the freaking rails today. Is this National Anti-Gay Hysteria Day? Did somebody spike Rod's coffee? And by the way, this sounds suspiciously similar to a story I once heard from a young woman named Ashley Todd...

"What would the reaction be if Christians tried to evict gays from a heavily Christian neighborhood?"

That's a very good question. What would the reaction be if, say, Christian leaders refused to condemn violence against gays?

www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/7382

I strongly suspect that nobody, including Rod, would notice or care.

"Then, they started throwing hot coffee, soda and alcohol on us and spitting (and maybe even peeing) on us. . . . He responded by hitting her on the head with the Bible, shoving her to the ground, and kicking her. . . .

". . .It wasn't long before the violence turned to perversion. They were touching and grabbing me, and trying to shove things in my butt, and even trying to take off my pants - basically trying to molest me. . . ."

Dreher presents these allegations as if they were facts. But what do have other than the word of someone who thinks it's "Christian" to go into a neighborhood full of hurt people, attack their families, and rub salt in their wounds?

If the allegations are true, the perpetrators should be prosecuted. Some of what they allege are very serious sex crimes. But I'm not willing to take anyone's word for it. They were obviously video taping to make their own point. You'd think they would have the worst on tape. The fact that they don't makes me suspect that they are exaggerating significantly.

If I'm wrong, show me the tape and I'll apologize. But I think I have as least as much right to suspect they are exaggerating as Dreher has to accept their word.

"When will gays apologize for falsely stating, implicitly if not explicitly, that Christians are behind every assault against gays?"

If all gay rights activists must condemn every act of violence committed by anyone claiming to be gay, why shouldn't all Christians do likewise?

When will Christians apologize for falsely stating, implicity if not explicitly, that gays are behind every assault against Christians?

If the video is legit (and that has yet to be proven) what I saw was two groups yelling at each other. I saw no violence. I saw nothing being thrown by either group. I simply saw one group marching through a neighborhood escorted by the police, while another marched to protest their protest.

1. Boy, it's a sad day when freerepublic does a better job of reporting the facts than crunchycon. At least the freepers put up the whole monologue so there was some kind of context.

2. Is Rod angling for some kind of Super-Duper-Ueber Heterosexual Defender of the Faith Medal, with Closet Freshener Cluster, the existence of which has been a closely held secret of the Orthodox Patriarchate heretofore? What is up with this antic frantic antigay post polka? I kid . . . I kid because I love . . . .

3. I leave the back and forth on who was to blame and how much to others who are doing a fine job without me, and save my breath for a meta-comment. This video really helped me understand what a passive-aggressive, emotionally assaultive kind of thing "evangelism" has come to be these days. Christians move in a group into someone else's space, often a space specifically designed to avoid Christians, and perform noisy and attention-grabbing activities. Their message is a variation on "We are so sorry for you because you suck and are going to hell any minute . . . but if you do as we say you can become more like us and then God will like you better." Since when did "you are bad" become the "good news"? Ugh. It's the Church of Better-Than-You in action again. Whatever happened to St. Francis's preaching without words, loving people and treating them the way Jesus would have? Whatever happened to serving people in need, rather than going to people who neither need nor want you and sticking it to them one more time?

It looks like the "Christians'" allegations may not be entirely true. And I stand by my previous posts that their behavior was protected but vile, and that anyone who actually assaulted the interlopers should be prosecuted. I also understand why the residents would be angry at people who successfully attacked their families, and then set out to intentionally rub salt in their wounds and increase the pain of people in pain.

All that said, the residents gave the interlopers what they wanted--victimhood to wallow in. Mistake.

Since Rod decided to un-post my honest comment about his behavior, I'll just go with this. It's from a book people supposedly respect around here.

“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.”

The Gospel According to Matthew. Seems these Christians missed that part.

JPL,
I've posted some strongly critical comments, and they have all remained. He probably did you (and the cause we more or less share) a favor by deleting them.

That said, you hit the nail on the head with your last post. How can these protesters square their faith with:

“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.”

It seems they are doing exactly the opposite of what Jesus commanded. That's one reason I'm not too sympathetic with anti-gay Christianity. It's cheap, easy faith.

By focusing on something they don't want to do, they take the lazy path, and they avoid focusing on their own sins. What can they do to strengthen their families? To lead their own lives closer to Christ's model? It's much easier to focus on the splinter they think they see in they eyes of Monogamous gays trying to raise children than on the logs in their own eyes.

"why are unbelievers so threatened by prayer?"

They weren't "threatened" by prayer. They were mad that people who had just successfully attacked the families living in the neighborhood were using "prayer" to rub salt in the wounds. That's not just wrong, it's sacrilegious.

Based on his previous writings, I would have thought that Dreher would have condemned such a misuse of something so Holy.

And speaking spiteful words aloud in prayer and then demanding immunity from criticism because you were "praying" is cowardly.

"This would NOT have happened had there been no Prop. 8. "

sorry but this has happened in the past just different venues. What about the ACT-UP groups that invaded Catholic Churches? The only thing now is that the internet and youtube exists. In the past the press has provided cover for the homosexual community, now this information is out there

Rupert Murdoch recently said ""It used to be that a handful of editors could decide what was news-and what was not. They acted as sort of demigods. If they ran a story, it became news. If they ignored an event, it never happened. Today editors are losing this power. The Internet, for example, provides access to thousands of new sources that cover things an editor might ignore. And if you aren't satisfied with that, you can start up your own blog and cover and comment on the news yourself. Journalists like to think of themselves as watchdogs, but they haven't always responded well when the public calls them to account." "
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10787_3-10098194-60.html

and that is what we are seeing here. This type of incident would not have been reported in the past and now it is, either through youtube, the blogs and even email.

At first, they just shouted at us, using crude, rude, and foul language and calling us names like "haters" and "bigots".

Ah, a textbook case of projection. And we conservatives are supposed to be the ones who aren't self-aware.

This story reminds me of another in Acts chapter 19:
"13Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out." 14Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15(One day) the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?" 16Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding. "

Your name - where were you reading blog comment threads in 1963?

Rawlins - are you saying that the real Christians would have been able to drive the devil out of this situation?

So many ambiguous posts...

Kick the dog and you're going to get bit. Mormon's and other christians are trying to legislate their particular religious beliefs. In the process they are discriminating against a group of fellow Americans. This is unconstitutional. We aren't a theocracy and the constitution protects the civil rights of all Americans, including those who are unpopular with the majority. What happened to the golden rule christians? Stop cherry picking which of your god's laws you choose to follow. Stop the hypocrisy. There always have been and always will be gay people. You don't have to like them, but you can't legally discriminate against them. You can think it's a sin to be gay, but you don't have the right to make laws against it. If civil society and government is involved in legal contracts called marriage it has to be available for all people. Religious groups can do whatever they choose, but the government has to treat all people equally.

I have no problem with prayer, and don't believe it to be ineffectual. But when it's publicly displayed as a political tool, designed to give one a "persecutor" to confront so that one might feel more martyr-like as one provokes those that one has injured, it's foul.

These people knew exactly what they were doing with their "witness", and intended to show their "strength" in the face of "persecution". They used Christ, prayer, and the gay community to stroke their petty egos, "bearding the dragon" in its den.

Their behavior was as pathetic as Ron's headline, which should have read "Conservative Christians Invade Gay Neighborhood, Provoke Others to Sin to Justify Themselves."

The hyperbolic BS and straw-man awards go to:

steve: The Russians are coming!

Michael: Tell me why churches are so obsessed with gays, and with keeping gays as a leper class.

Public Defender: destroy the families...trying to rip them apart...mass attack...even the vile...and vile at the same time.

Margie: your true anti-gay feelings

Eric: Is this National Anti-Gay Hysteria Day?

elizabeth: I know how all Christians act

Anonymous: It's a tough job, being head of the class at Pharisee School.

Chance: "anti-Christian bigots"

Nice scare quotes there, Chance. Now what I'm fed up with is the term anti-gay or anti-gay bigots, and I'm especially fed up with the term hate or now as it's written H8. All of these should be in scare quotes instead of taken at face value. Yeah, I know Phelps and similar or even subtler exist, but as a queer who had been out and in the "community" for over a decade I can tell you that the overwhelming number of people treated me and those I know with much tolerance...even if they thought that same-sex attraction was an anomaly. These people are NOT haters. Holding a traditional anthropology isn't hate anymore that holding a postmodern anthropology is hate, but they do seriously disagree with each other.

Stop crying HATE! This is a large part of the divisiveness.

I'm not really part of the "community" anymore, although I still have some friends who gay identify, but I had to be true to myself and NOT to apply reductionism, determinism, and rigid objectivity to a mere subjectivity of mine...and only one subjectivity out of thousands at that. For this I received shame and revile from the "community" or that is to say many of my friends shunned me. How tolerant. One even said, be Catholic then, you'll just go to hell. How understanding.

Tony R, I was at a march this past weekend too, basically to observe. And I'll still say that marriage doesn't to be redefined away from the organic, opposite-sex institution that it is, and I'll go one further and say that no-fault divorce should eliminated to boot. Marriage also is NOT the rights and privileges, and the rights and privileges are NOT marriage. I think they should be civilly separated, and those rights and privileges should be open to any stable home including non-sexual relations too and not just gays who will pitch a fit.

So Public Defender, am I vile for being a uppity homo who won't stay on the gay plantation?

No shame and no pride, TJ

PS Sally Rogers @ 7:38 PM: Wonder why that could be? Because Newsom is the cultural revolutionary in chief and the Governator ain't got the stones.

a whole bunch of mean, stupid people -- well, not the police ;-)

So Public Defender, am I vile for being a uppity homo who won't stay on the gay plantation?

I'm curious whether life on the "ex-gay" plantation is really better. It doesn't seem to work out well for a lot of people.

Joseph,

I am very sorry to hear of the treatment you receive. It's awful and no one should have to put up with such humiliations.

The difference I see is that it seems that some gay people equate that kind of vicious behavior as being equivalent with those who don't agree that the definition of marriage should be changed. I think most people who voted in favor of Prop 8 would be appalled by the behavior you endure, but that they also think that marriage is something that has a reality and an existence that can't be altered to accomodate the wishes of a small number of people whose behavior takes them outside the definition of marriage as it's always existed. They believe that doing so would injure an already very weak institution that is essential for a thriving community.

I know this is a very unsatisfying answer to many gay people. But then the proper question is "how shall I persuade you that you in the majority are wrong?" For those who are angry about prop 8, all I can say is that calling everyone who disagrees with you a hater is not a very persuasive strategy.

And TJ - get ready to be called "self-hating" in 3-2-1... As I understand it, that's much worse than us mere haters of others.

Er, "Rod." Sorry.

[The captcha I had to enter to post this comment had "666" in it. An omen?]

The account keeps getting whittled down. I think you should all read the whole thing before you make ignorant comments. For the sake of truth and convenience, look at this from the youtube video:

Then a crowd started gathering. We began to sing "Amazing Grace", and basically sang that song the whole night. (At some points we also sang "Nothing but the Blood of Jesus" and "Oh the Blood of Jesus".) At first, they just shouted at us, using crude, rude, and foul language and calling us names like "haters" and "bigots". Since it was a long night, I can't even begin to remember all of the things that were shouted and/or chanted at us. Then, they started throwing hot coffee, soda and alcohol on us and spitting (and maybe even peeing) on us. Then, a group of guys surrounded us with whistles, and blasted them inches away from our ears continually. Then, they started getting violent and started shoving us. At one point a man tried to steal one of our Bibles. Chrisdene noticed, so she walked up to him and said "Hey, that's not yours, can you please give it back?". He responded by hitting her on the head with the Bible, shoving her to the ground, and kicking her. I called the cops, and when they got there, they pulled her out of the circle and asked her if she wanted to press charges. She said "No, tell him I forgive him." Afterwards, she didn't rejoin us in the circle, but she made friends with one of the people in the crowd, and really connected heart to heart. Roger got death threats. As the leader of our group, people looked him in the eyes and said "I am going to kill you.", and they were serious. A cop heard one of them, and confronted him. (This part is kinda graphic, so you should skip the paragraph if you don't want to be offended.) It wasn't long before the violence turned to perversion. They were touching and grabbing me, and trying to shove things in my butt, and even trying to take off my pants - basically trying to molest me. I used one hand to hold my pants up, while I used the other arm to hold one of the girls. The guys huddled around all the girls, and protected them. Soon after, the cops came and stood between us and the mob. When it was getting more heated, the cops were like "You guys should leave." and Roger said "We want to stay." Someone tried to steal my backpack, but I tapped a cop on the shoulder, and said "Hey, that's my bag." and he got it from him and gave it to me. Others weren't so lucky. Probably half our team got their jackets stolen. Eventually, as the crowd was getting more and more uncontrollable, the cops were afraid for our lives, so they escorted us to our van. (The cops were very nice to us from start to finish.) Our van was parked pretty far because it was hard to find parking that day. As the cops escorted us, the mob followed us, until the cops formed a line, and held off the people so we could drive away. We took the long way home, just in case anyone tried to follow us. When we got home, we prayed and sang more, and then prayed over each-other. Please know my heart. All of what we do is for the Love of Jesus Christ, and the love for those in the Castro. The Bible says to love God, and then love people. We can only love because He loved us first. We can't hate the people because they are just broken and blinded by the spirit of this age. Our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against Principalities and Powers. It's not a political thing, we just love the people. This is the raw footage of the walk from 18th and Castro Street to our car. It was only the very tail end of the night and says that we were all about prop8... when in reality we had nothing to do with prop 8 this night.:
http://www.ktvu.com/news/17986914/detail.html

Anonyomous,

Your post makes it look like the text you cite comes from the link at the end. It does not. The allegations in the text are unsourced and unverified. The video shows a lot of angry words, but it doesn't show violence.

(In my first comment in this thread, I took Dreher's description of the video on face value. I was wrong to do that.)

Part of my job is sorting allegations from facts. Here, I see lots of allegations, but precious few facts.

It's also telling that even though the protesters were making a video to prove their point, the video doesn't prove their point. If all these bad things were happenning, why didn't they capture them on the video that they controled?

As I said before, I will apologize if I'm shown wrong, but I smell a rat.

To those who assume the unsupported and unsourced allegations are true, I have two words: Tawana Brawley.

Rod didn't listen to what the gays were chanting to the Christians. If he had he might not have dug out his Inflammable Headlines Guide to find something appropriate for the occasion as he saw it.

They were screaming "SHAME ON YOU!!!"

The question has to come to mind about which side was acting more like Christians.

The overheated rhetoric coming from the homosexual side of this "discussion" is frankly ridiculous, especially the angry, narcissistic insistence on homosexual victimhood. Look, until about ten years ago there wasn't a homosexual in the land that was pining for "marriage." But a few unelected judges gave you a whiff and now it's the Edmund Pettus Bridge. Preposterous.

As anyone who, like me, has spent a delightful Halloween evening on Hollywood Boulevard knows, the idea that Ozzie and Harriet are your role models is laughable. The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence have it about right. And America knows it.

Sally Rogers, I'm used to it. I was told that I was sick, an internalized homophobe, delusional, in denial, brainwashed, a sellout, a traitor, I would never be happy, I would go to hell, others would never love me like those in the community did (that bit of battered wifery was particularly...um...sweet), and on and on and on.

So what burns me is when I hear things like we only know how to be loving and tolerant because we're victims 24-7. I want to scream. We all, every-side, are so wrapped up in our narratives that we needlessly re-instruct ourselves in continually.

Jillian, and not once did I say that I was "ex-gay". That term has come to have a very specific meaning. Regardless, I would count them as allies and you should see the double whammy of reproach that they face. Anyway I would try to explain, what I am (or more specifically what I am not), but comboxes aren't the place for that, and honestly I'm swimming up against conditioned mindsets, which is why I the the millions like me are largely silent (so far).

Public Defender...crickets chirping...

I don't think the Christian marchers got what they had coming to them; the mob behavior is alarming for more reasons than one.

But, as a Christian, I'm wondering about the thinking of the marchers.

Was there a subtle form of pressure involved, that you were showing how sincere your discipleship was, how sensitive you are to the prompting of the Holy Spirit, by going into a scary neighborhood like this? But was doing so a self-chosen act of "spirituality" akin to other, and very dubious, self-chosen actions such as wearing chains, hair shirts, and so on? I don't accuse the Christians of this, but I'm wondering. Throughout the centuries, there has been -- if I may use the word -- a temptation to some Christians to engage in feats of extraordinary asceticism and so on, and it is surely very hard for us sinners to engage in such things without subtle pride. See Tolstoy's disturbing and powerful novella "Father Sergius."

I question such things because they seem to have little or no warrant in the apostolic Scriptures. I don't find, for example, that the apostles engaged in demonstrations. They engaged in evangelistic efforts of various types, to be sure, such as we see in Acts 17, etc. But these are not the same thing. They stepped into the public forums of their day and tried to engage the attention of their audiences, proclaiming to Jewish audiences how Jesus fulfills the Old Testament, or addressing pagan audiences to show how the One they worshiped without knowing Him, was the very God who had come into the world as the man Jesus, etc.

It seems to me that the marchers were doing something different, for all that they may have had much intention of doing good. They marched along as a group of the saved, contrasting themselves, however humble they may have felt, with those around them, or so it seems to me. What I'm saying is that in the New Testament, Christ is the message, but in a march like this, the message would seem to be "us." Of course, I wasn't there. And I'm sure there'd be marchers who would say, No, we were praising God, etc. But can it be granted that what they did was not like what St. Stephen and St. Paul did -- not really?

I hope someone will not quote the passage about proclaiming the Gospel in season and out of season as if that settles the matter, or insinuate that I'm just trying to rationalize my own lack of courage and lack of a burden for the lost, etc.

I invite more discussion specifically about what Christians clearly should and could do, adapting the apostolic practice to our time and circumstances.

The churches are getting what is coming to them. They are full of hate and hypocracy.

If Jesus saw what was going on today, he would scold the hate that has been instilled by religion.

Jesus would be ashamed of the christians and proud of the people that didn't want hate or bigotry in their neighborhood.

Freedom from Religion!!

Joh - Jesus would be proud of a mob that attacked people worshipping Him? He would be proud of violent persecution of His people, and approve of people doing injury to others? "Put thy sword back in its place, for all who take the sword shall perish by the sword."

I think you don't understand hyporcisy any better than you spell it.

The hateful, disgusting people in the mob deserve to go to prison. It is a shame that the police did not appear to pursue them. That said, Public Defender has a powerful point. The video camera shows some of the hateful things that were said and the by the mob to the street preachers. But, the camera reveals as much as it conceals. The video camera does not really show what the preachers were saying and doing that may have been a provocation to the crowd. The camera also does not confirm many of the preachers' allegations like sexual assault, or trying to put something in one of the men's butt (?!?), etc. While what we can actually see that was done to the preachers was bad enough, I am skeptical of some of their additional allegations, and I am skeptical that they weren't deliberately baiting gays in the Castro. Baiting is what these street preachers do. It is their raison d'etre.

Hysterics,

You misspelled "miscegeny".

I've read through the comments, but maybe I missed it. Has Rod made any sort of substantive response to the examples of actual violence against gay people posted in this thread? I would hope he'd have the decency to be a little embarassed at his hysteria over that video and the other allegations after being reminded that Christians and "christians" continue even today to assault and murder people for being gay.

Mike

"why are unbelievers so threatened by prayer?"

"They weren't "threatened" by prayer. They were mad that people who had just successfully attacked the families living in the neighborhood were using "prayer" to rub salt in the wounds. That's not just wrong, it's sacrilegious."

As a college student, the student evangelical Christian group (as opposed to the Catholic group) on campus started "praying" in groups outside of other student's doors, especially gay students who were out on campus. They protested about their rights when the college administration stopped that practice. Prayer certainly can be used as an offensive strategy that sounds/feels very different to those who experience it from inside an (involuntary) prayer circle than those who feel prayer is always well-intended and helpful.

Does this remind anyone of the mob in Sodom and Gommorah?
Is it possible the peaceful christians were angels?

I'm all for being smart and what not but using words like confederates just confirms peoples opinions. Much better to use a less civil war linked term such as allies. That way you are the good guys from WW2 instead of people defending "states rights".

"What would YOU do if people used the law to declare YOUR family invalid and illegitimate?"

Why don't you ask the incest and animal-love activists. They'll say you do the same to them.

"Why don't you ask the incest and animal-love activists. They'll say you do the same to them."

And exactly who are these people? Are you conjuring up visions of sins not being committed just to celebrate, well, Schadenfreude?

"Robert
November 19, 2008 10:58 AM
"Why don't you ask the incest and animal-love activists. They'll say you do the same to them."

And exactly who are these people? Are you conjuring up visions of sins not being committed just to celebrate, well, Schadenfreude?"

******

Well there's Peter Singer of Princeton and animal rights fame for the animal-love approval.

Then there's that German couple (brother and sister) with children of their own fighting for marriage rights. They were discussed here about a year ago.

Just because they aren't on your radar map doesn't mean they aren't out there. They will be coming out of their closets more and more. Can you guess what activist model they will emulate? I'm sure you can.

Ignore Max. He's just trolling.

Sorry, Peter. I want to be as friendly about this as possible: the proper use of a word that accurately conveys the intended meaning of the writer is never invalidated by its possible misinterpretation using a complete shift in the context.

Look up the flap in DC over a government official correctly using the word "niggardly" in front of some blacks who in my view never looked at a dictionary, let alone opened one.

Your criticism is exactly what I consider SOP for thought police. That, sir, will never find any respect or tolerance from me.

"Daniel
November 19, 2008 2:53 PM
Ignore Max. He's just trolling."

*****

Translation: Ignore Max. He's just pointing out an inconvientent truth about our methods.

I can't believe how terribly rude these people are to such a small minority. And, why is this not on the news. If it was the other way around, that is if a small group of homos were parading around and a solid group of Christians were heckling and cursing them out, the liberal press would be all over it: "Those poor gays. They are treated so badly." Let's play it both ways.

Max, I would never ignore you, even if you asked me to. ;-)

Rod, when are you going to post on Fidel Castro becoming Russian Orthodox? I'm curious to get your take on it.

John,

Evidence?

they are not joels army they are J-HOP. look for yourself what they are about.http://www.jhopsd.com/

This is stupid, their just as bad as each other. Gays use the bad points of one side to mean all and so do the others whn in most cases that's due to an individual, not an entire religion or organization. The trouble with an eye for an eye is that every ends up blind. I don't think all gays are bad, those who use peaceful protests for the right reason, but this eighboor hood, these individuals who have choosen to take the the path of violence, we have the perfect right to say they were wrong, just as gays have the right to say, this guy who shot that guy was wrong. But saying, oh all the gays are evil is wrong, and saying all the churches are evil is wrong, because it is the individuals who do it, not the organization itself.

In other news, Gay marriage protected by federal law will be enforced by nondescrimination laws if made a fundamental right, conflicting with the first amendment of free speech. I know no one will believe me when I say I did the research and can back it up with examples and past cases, but it is a fact, because it's being pushed as a fundamental right. Because of this, homosexuals will have the ability to sue any organization, practice, or school that discriminates or excludes them, just as a black person could do to their protection under nondescrimination law. Same sex marriage is a social behavior, and idea, and enforcing an idea, and a sexual lifestyle one at that is taking away the freedom of speech granted us by the 1st amendment.

I think the community, gay and strait alike) should address this, as if they are ignorent of it, then thats going to cause major problems in the future.

I'm unfortunately not very surprised. There's a developing anger in many Gay communities - a quite reasonable one, in my opinion. They are beginning to see themselves as a deliberately oppressed minority, which is true, and christians as their oppressors, which by and large is also true. I deplore this act of violence, but unless the anti-gay extremists stop trying to deny gays basic rights, I fear this may become much more common.

Well, how would you like a bunch of peaceful gays coming over into a nice christian neighborhood every day with picket signs & bull horns trying to convert all christians into homosexuals. I know one thing, you will be just as outraged as those gays were in that video.

You Christians spend lots of time and money going into gay neighborhoods and at gay pride events trying to convert. Then when something goes wrong, or something happens that you don't like, then you all are like "Woe is me". Then you call yourselves peaceful and "Just trying to spread the goodness of the lord." or "We are just trying to spread the gospel.", but you are there to protest against, and the gays are fed up and starting to fight back. Do you blame them? It's about time.

And, who got assaulted? From the title, I expected to see some gay guy pounding a Christian to the ground. Just looks like a bunch of gays protesting back, giving Christians a piece of their own medicine.

Most times at these sort of events, it's the Christians that usually get arrested. And till this day, the Christians have no idea why.