I posted something like this in the comboxes of the most recent gay marriage thread, but this brilliant software ate it, as it has been eating so many of your comments. So hell, I'll just post a new entry.
John Wildermuth, a political columnist at the San Francisco Chronicle, comments on the strategy going forward of pro-same-sex-marriage activists:
[M]any of the post-election comments and demonstrations by Prop. 8 opponents have characterized the 52 percent of California voters who supported the gay marriage ban as little more than ignorant bigots, haters and homophobes. They have called for boycotts of Prop. 8 supporters. They also have argued that the Mormon church and other religious groups that backed the ban had no right to get involved in politics and should be stripped of their tax-free status by the IRS.Ignoring the fact that Prop. 8 opponents aren't suggesting similar sanctions for the many church groups that supported them, name-calling, lawsuits and in-your-face tactics typically aren't a way to win the hearts and minds -- and votes -- of people whose support you are going to need.
A quick look at the state map of the Prop. 8 vote shows that if same-sex marriage supporters want to win any election rematch, they're going to have to move out of their Bay Area comfort zone and make their case to black and Latino voters and in less-friendly spots such as the Central Valley. Triumphant marches through the Castro district and sending sign-waving supporters to the Berkeley BART station aren't going to do it.
In 2010 the governor's race will be at the top of the ballot, not a historic presidential contest like the one last week. There's no guarantee that those same young, progressive voters who came out in droves for Barack Obama -- and stayed to vote against Prop. 8 -- will find their way back to the polls. That makes it even more important for same-sex marriage supporters to start working to convince some of those "Yes on Prop. 8" voters to take another look at the question of gay marriage.
Yeah, good luck with that. This is what we're going to see: a Mormon woman and business owner who gave $100 to the pro-Prop 8 campaign having to stand in front of a group of gays like some poor cretin in the dock at a Stalinist show trial:
The tall, frail Christofferson stood in the center of the group. She appeared to be shaking during her prepared remarks which lasted about 3 minutes. Two young female family members flanked her to prevent her from fainting, according to a restaurant employee. At several points during her speech, Christofferson simply became too emotional to continue.El Coyote has become the latest casualty in the local outburst against the passage of Proposition 8, an anti-marriage amendment to the California State Constitution. Dozens of e-mails and websites, including the popular online local guide, Yelp.com, have urged boycotting the legendary cafe in recent days.
Christofferson, who is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, insisted that her donation was personal, and reflected her religious faith.
"I've been a member of the Mormon Church all my life," she said. "This was a personal donation. In like fashion, any employee here would be free to donate, worship or support anything of their personal choosing. Over the Coyote has financially supported many charities and thousands of dollars most particularly have been given to the gay interests and charities. The restaurant does not support any political group."
In the only question taken by Ms. Christofferson after her remarks, and before those gathered, I asked her directly if she would personally make an equal donation to the campaigns to repeal Proposition 8."I cannot change a lifetime of faith," she said.
Moments later, the same group which had been invited for lunch and margaritas grew increasingly verbal, apparently reacting to the lack of a direct apology from Ms. Christofferson, and she left the building in tears. The group continued to meet for another 30 minutes, before dispersing for what appeared to be a looming boycott. One demonstrator was already shouting outside.
Understand what is happening here. This is a business owner who has served clientele, including gays, without incident for many years. She even gave money to gay charities. But she is a Mormon, and her religious commitment leads her to support traditional marriage. For that, she is treated like a criminal, and reduced to either renouncing her faith or possibly losing her business.
Is this really where gay activists want to take this country?
Because I assure you, if you put people in the position of this Mormon restaurant owner, and the Mormon theatrical director who just resigned under pressure for defending the idea that marriage should be between one man and one woman, you are summoning up demons that you will not be able to control.
What if traditionalist/conservative Christians began to harrass people who gave to the effort to defeat Prop 8 in a similar way, on the grounds that the anti-Prop 8 people supported a cause that would have taken away some of their religious freedom? What then? Would it be just to drive them out of business, or humiliate them into confessing their sin of having given money to a political cause out of conscience?
If a gay man who'd given money to fight Prop 8 were hounded out of his job by Christian protesters, I'd send him money to help him pay rent until he got on his feet again. I would have voted for Prop 8, but I don't see people who fought against it as bad people. I concede that same-sex marriage is enormously important to them. I regret that we can't all find some sort of live-and-let-live agreement here (I would have thought extending all the civil and legal benefits of marriage to them without calling it marriage would be an acceptable compromise, until the culture changes enough to reach a consensus on the acceptability of gay marriage, but obviously not). But for reasons of religious belief, and out of the conviction that religious liberty must be protected, I would have voted for Prop 8.
But I find it easy to empathize with my gay neighbors who don't understand where people like me are coming from on this. I give them the benefit of the doubt that they are arguing in good faith for what they believe is their right. I don't believe it is a right at all. I really don't, and to have it recognized in law as a constitutional right puts a very important liberty explicitly mentioned in the Constitution at risk. Nevertheless, there are good men and women on both sides of this issue, and I refuse to abstract the people on the other side into villains.
But that's exactly what we see happening with some of these gay-rights protesters. Someone on one of these threads, a gay poster, said he feels just like a Jew in Nazi Germany, seeing his rights stripped from them. That is utterly hysterical, crazy talk. This "right" to marry someone of the same sex was just divined by the California Supreme Court this year. The Gestapo is not at your door, and won't be at your door. Gays can live together as they like, congregate as they like, even register their partnerships with the state and receive virtually the same benefits as married heteros. Good! But no, California 2008 is Deutschland 1934. And when you decide that the people who oppose you -- including frail Mormon restaurant owners -- are no different than Hitlerite thugs, well, anything you do to them is justified.
Again: is this really where gay-rights activists want to take this culture? We are in a culture in which people are moving steadily towards accepting gay marriage. By the time I die, I expect gay marriage to be totally legal in every state, and that the broader culture will support that. (Whether that's a good thing or not is another question, but still, I expect that to be the case). Frankly, I think the anti-SSM forces should work to make Americans aware of the threat to religious liberty from constitutionalizing SSM, and should start figuring out how to pass a federal constitutional amendment drawing a bright, clear zone of protection around religious institutions, granting them immunity from civil rights laws governing homosexuality. In other words, to retreat to a position that is defensible in the long term.
Anyway, times are about to get very hard in this country. We may be facing another Great Depression. There will be suffering. Tempers will fray. We should be trying to pull together right now, not rip each other's heads off. If Christians and others see their kind literally under assault by gay activists, and come to understand how significant the threat to religious liberty the constitutionalizing of SSM is, we will all -- gay and straight -- be worse off for the result.
Do not abstract your neighbor! There are good people on both sides. I concede that you have a right to be upset if you are gay. You have a claim on the empathy of Christians, Jews, Muslims and social conservatives who voted for Prop 8. But you also have the obligation to attempt to have empathy for those people. Are they all nothing but Nazi haters? Really? Do you really think you can bully people into renouncing their religious commitment, and into accepting that something as deeply rooted in culture and history as the exclusivity of traditional marriage is something they should be ashamed of?
At this rate, this is not going to end well for anybody. And that is something we should all regret, and seek to avoid. What's so wrong with tolerance, y'know?
Someone on a previous thread
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"This shows that civil rights protection goes beyond immutable traits to include choices and behavior."
Well, no.
Religious faith is not a choice. I cannot choose to believe or disbelieve (though one can, as I once did, to deny what I beleived or disbelieved).
And behavior, based in faith or not, has limits in the law.
Right now, the faith of some that "gay marriage" is part of "connecting souls" is limited to the point of proscription in the state of California.
1:24 post was me.
>> said he feels just like a Jew in Nazi Germany... That is utterly hysterical, crazy talk... The Gestapo is not at your door
Fair enough, but I notice that terms like "brownshirt" and "Stalinist show trial" made their way into your post, Rod.
Religious faith is not a choice. I cannot choose to believe or disbelieve (though one can, as I once did, to deny what I believed or disbelieved).
You personally know how much of your beliefs you assert or hold onto by willpower. Willpower being desire that some particular article be true, coupled to crippled or deficient intellectual analysis of its actual truth content.
Id say that on the evidence of the latter, a good amount of the former can be safely inferred.
Right now, the faith of some that "gay marriage" is part of "connecting souls" is limited to the point of proscription in the state of California.
You could, you know, actually ask some bisexual people and judge the proposition on the basis of concrete evidence. Smarm is fun, but so cheap and degrading.
This argument that gave $100 ?!
(So she's a bigot AND cheap)
her $100 means she chose her church over her community, gay employees and customers. or "I will take your money but see you as deserving less rights than I have."
In actuality she is tithing 10% of her El Coyote floor manager salary
to her beloved Mormon church that puts the money (from Marjie's alcohol sales to her "good gay friends") to such 'benevolent causes'
like campaigns to help sway voters to remove the rights of United States citizens.
If a business owner was outed as being a contributor to the KKK
would we be having this conversation?
NO !!! so look at your own internalized homophobia and bigotry.
gays cannot change their dna - they havent made a choice.
they are human beings and fellow citizens deserving EQUAL rights.
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