Met. Jonah's final address

As an evangelical Christian just starting to look into Orthodoxy, I'm interested in reading your blog posts on this topic. As someone who currently works with university students in a ministry capacity (dh and I meet with international students on our local state university campus regularly), this also is something I like to read about.

Matt, I see *nothing* out of line in the quote you were responding to. Our personal interpretation of the Scriptures means *nothing*. It's what the Bible says, and what the traditions of the apostles (the church fathers) say, that matter. And these things do not include support for what is mentioned in the quote.

Matt,

The gentleman is a successor of the Apostles, a Bishop rightly dividing the Word of Truth and a shepherd of Christ's one true Church. Those outside of Christ's Church (i.e. the non-Orthodox) are free to interpret the Scriptures any way that they wish. But Orthodox Bishops have a responsibility to preach the truth, whether it is popular or not.

Forgive me for not including a frame of reference. We could debate this all day, but the gospels found in the bible are simply the interpretations of a story from a number of points of view. To provide a (probably incomplete) reference. All censored and neatly packaged to fit into the worldview of a dozen or so "spiritual leaders" who were probably alot smarter than you or I. Truth is we don't have much to go on other than the monopolistic word of "the Church."

That is by no means the whole story nor does it provide any level of exclusivity on the rights to religion, scripture, tradition, or spiritual understanding. To argue that the word of God is only expressed in the Gospels and can only be understood as verbatim set forth by any individual interpreted version of the bible is probably self depreciating, considering the vast poetic imagery and metaphor of the stories.

There are many subtle levels of truth, Joseph, as interpreted by humanity. While I will whole heartedly agree that there is only ONE Truth, with a capital T, there are an infinite number of understandings - all of which are probably wrong, and my (ironic!) "understanding" here is that this guy is pushing only his.

Maybe I took too much from the quote. I didn't have an opportunity to listen to the recording - but The Christ; for such a smart guy - and for such devout followers around the time of his death, I find it truly hard to believe that he would have excluded anyone or held onto such a rigid and iconic worldview without maintaining some level of recognition of differing perspectives. But I can't pretend to know him any better than you; and I guess we'll have to wait till he comes back to find out :-)

Who is this guy to tell me how I've interpreted the teachings of Jesus Christ wrongly, or make such broad accusations.

I don't know. Who are you to say that he is wrong?

It muddles the truth.

Perhaps, it just muddles your version of it.

God grant him many years! Wow! I hope there will be a way to make all this happen monetarily. This is just the kind of man the OCA needs right now.

College groups truly is a big key. I love the way the St. James house at St. Johns enriches our parish with the energy and enthusiasm of young people as well as the fact that some of them stick around and continue building community long after their college years. It's genious.

Matt,

You don't accept the truthfulness of the gospels, yet you accept Christ as the Son of God? Where else but the Bible did you look to glean this truth? If you can't accept the historicity and truthfulness of the gospels, then it would seem to be impossible to place one's faith in the person they purport to be about.

I must say, even though I am what might be described as a "traditionalist Episcopalian," it always troubles me a bit when people outside of the Anglican tradition offer their support for our beleaguered journey. There's something vaguely condescending about it, as if we are to be pitied for not having been Orthodox (or Roman Catholic or evangelical or whatever) all along. And I certainly don't believe that the Episcopal Church has abandoned Jesus Christ and the entirety of the gospel. If I believed that, I could no longer serve as a priest from within her fold. I am concerned about the state of the church, certainly. I might even go so far as to say that I worry about the future of the church if we continue to tear out each other's eyeballs. But I don't think it's the sort of thing that those outside of Anglicanism really get unless they're in the midst of it. And yes, I know that Metropolitan Jonah is a former Episcopalian, but he's been away for thirty years. I'm a former Roman Catholic but I wouldn't deign to imagine I have some idea of what it was like to suffer through the ongoing abuse scandals because when I was a child I made my sacraments at the foot of a Roman altar.

Sig, I expect better from you than, "If that's his great plan-stop those darn kids from having sex and drinking-then, really, what makes you think it'll work out any better than it ever has?" You admit you didn't listen to the Metropolitan's full speech, so you really have no context for what you say, but choose to launch at one small part of a long talk. And yes, indulgence in drunkenness and fornication is indicative of spiritual disorder. This is somehow news to you? If you had troubled yourself to actually listen, you would have heard an emphasis on healing the disorder, rather than eliminating the symptoms of the disorder. It's odd that you are bored and frustrated by a bishop actually talking like a bishop

As a member of an OCA parish under his jurisdiction through the Bulgarian Archdiocese, and as a former Baptist, I say heartily.

Amen.

God, grant him many years.

Intentional Disciples posts their acknowledgment also:
http://blog.siena.org/2008/11/tales-of-orthodox-world-and-st-thomas.html
along with a remarkable story of a renowned "Western" saint haunting the unconscience of an "Eastern" lapsed Serbian Orthodox

In this month of prayers for the deceased, let us invoke the intercession of many saints - that they go a'haunting those of us sleepwalking into oblivion in both East and West!

Scott, I think you're willfully misunderstanding me. I didn't "admit" that I didn't listen to the whole thing--I proudly asserted it. Rod feels he need not read novels (e.g. The Golden Compass) to condemn them; I don't need to listen to a whole speech to comment on those parts of it that Rod has chosen to present to us.

IF--as I said--the Metropolitan placed greater emphasis on doing good works and acting locally to create a faith community than he did on condemning youthful misbehavior, homosexuality and abortion, then good for him. But--based on Rod's presentation of what Rod liked--it seemed to me that equal weight was being given to positive action and to what I regard as pointless condemnation. And that I believe is a big mistake.

I did not drink to excess as a student, or any other time, and I find it disturbing to watch other people getting drunk and acting stupid. Alcoholism in general is a very big problem in our society. But it was not addressed in those terms. It was addressed specifically in terms of young people being bad. I'm bored with that because moralists have been railing against the sins of youth since the world began, and it DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE. It's not a solution--it's just a feel-good thing for old folks who like to feel better-than. I'm fed up with the Church of Better-Than-You, however it's expressed. Anyone who wants to put boots on the ground to make this world a better place through personal effort is good by me. However, public figures who confess the sins of others in order to solidify their own constituency will be ignored by me. Life is too short. This is a general statement, because, as you point out, I have insufficient data to determine which of these types the Metropolitan really is. Time will tell.

A few things. Matt: From my understanding, and reading of Fathers like Maximus, Athanasius, John Damascene, etc, what was established by the Apostles is the THE FOUNDATION of the faith in Jesus Christ. The reason for this usage is to evoke the image of a building, which as Paul notes, may be built upon with differing materials (This is from 1 Corinthians, um 4 or 5?)

Fr. J and others,

If you listen to Met. Jonah's address, you'll see that he wasn't generalizing the state of the Episcopal church or passing judgment on them. Those words are in brackets because Rod inserted them.

In context, Met. Jonah was sharing the experience he had over the summer at the St. Alban & St. Sergius conference speaking to several Episcopalian priests. He was relaying what *they* said to him. So, these are their own words, not Met. Jonah's.

Just thought you might like the clarification.

Finally had time to listen to +JONAH's first address as Metropolitan. Probably my favorite part came near the end: (I'm paraphrasing) "Writing checks is great. Write checks to IOCC and OCMC, they're wonderful organizations.

But how about buying someone a sandwich, and handing it to him?"

Tony D.: (quoting Met. Jonah) But how about buying someone a sandwich, and handing it to him?

That struck me as well, Tony. I recall an episode when I lived in New York, where I offered to buy a particularly well-spoken "bum" a lunch. He preferred a direct infusion of capital. When I asked him what he was going to use it for, he replied (quite candidly), "booze".

"What kind of booze", I asked.

"Wine", replied the penurious gourmand.

"Ah! well, which vintage?", I enquire, attempting to descry his preferential palate pleaser. I think he replied, "Thunderbird".

Now, I don't know whether you know French, but I, having an insurmountable proclivity to translate everything into French, immediately thought that "oiseau de foudre", which is what my Gallic instinct discerned from his slurred parlance, must be either a Côte de Beaune unfamiliar to me or else a recondite classical metaphor that would have had Ovid suffering asthma attacks chasing down in the dust of some Roman bibliotheca.

We had been discussing Plato (whom he was able to quote in Greek) and I later learned that his accustomed libation is rock gut poison. Being an excellent humanitarian and humanist as well as a dévoué of the philosophes, I went to a liquor store and bought a bottle of French Burgundy and returned to the haunt of my erstwhile vagabond acquaintance. I opened the bottle and we both shared a draught and I left him with by far the greater part of the bottle to assuage his troubled soul.

It was my one Christian Act of Charity, but performed in homage to a Stoic who surpassed me in learning, virtue, and human understanding. I hope he died well.

I just saw it now, Sig. LOL! May your apocalypse be true and may you be that one among the Blessed! (I'll use any get-out-of-hell free card in the game of eschatological monopoly.)