Mormons can't win

Rod -

Correction. It's not just gays who are treating the LDS Church with loathing. Plenty of us straight people are pretty pissed at them, too.

I'm amazed at the whining of those who are angry that citizens are expressing their constitutionally protected right to protest and boycott an organization that chose to take a very public lead position on a very contentious issue.

I don't blame gay people for protesting mormon churches. Were mormons expecting to make inroads in the gay community by supporting proposition 8?

Destroy the marriages of tens of thousands of couples and you are greeted with "loathing." Gee, what a surprise.

Sig: ... they might give similar consideration to the Christian teaching that God made us out of dirt (and in my case, a spare rib) in a garden, from which we were expelled because we listened to a talking snake.

Come on, Sig. That's just an allegory. The meaning is clear: Eve tempted Adam with the Forbidden Fruit - viz. anal sex. This is the "knowledge" that is prohibited, where "knowledge" is used in the Hebrew sense. The stern condemnation of unnatural sex is repeated many times in other books of the Bible.

Christians should be thankful that their non-Christian Mormon brethren have shouldered the Cross of Christ in their default. Mormons may be destined for Hell, but they will undoubtedly stake a claim to its cooler precincts (i.e. at the opposite end of the hall from the Catholic bishops.)

Or maybe everyone concerned is merely exercising their free speech rights. Last I checked, that right works in both directions. Mormons have the right to dissent, to object, to criticize, to buy and sell where they wish, to make their wishes known to their legislators. The GBLT citizens and allies have the same right, as per Mormons and their actions and speech.

Free speech is a messy right, as it seems everyone seems to think that another person exercizing that right in regards to them is the same as restricting THEIR rights. My being critical of what you say is NOT the same thing as denying you the right to say it, anymore than you were restricting my rights by being critical of me in the first place.

And last I checked, nobody has the right to make people do business with them. Even discrimination laws don't go that far. It'd be McCarthyism if it was encoded into and enforced by Government mandate.
Oddly enough, and interestingly, I think the Mormons themselves are much more accepting of this simple fact, people don't tend to do business with those who publicly act against their interests.

Odd, huh?

As for their record with other religious conservatives, they'll have to talk to the Jewish and Catholic communities and their experiences with the Protestant Evangelial community. They can talk about how deep those alliances really go when some issues are held in common, but there are deep disagreements as regards beliefs and practices.

The gays are setting themselves up for a severe backlash with their stupid ego-politics.
They staged a protest at the Mormon Church, knowing that Mormons would not retaliate.
Blacks voted against gay marriage...why don't the gays go to the hood and have protests? They'd get SHOT if they tried that crap in South Central.

Roland de Chanson
Come on, Sig. That's just an allegory. The meaning is clear: Eve tempted Adam with the Forbidden Fruit - viz. anal sex. This is the "knowledge" that is prohibited, where "knowledge" is used in the Hebrew sense. The stern condemnation of unnatural sex is repeated many times in other books of the Bible.

Never heard that one. I have heard one that said 'rib' is a euphemism, and women were made out of another part of man's anatomy...a part that Jews traditionally remove, and made into a part that women have...if you see where that's going.

"Who cares who loathes us if God the Heavenly Father and his son Jesus Christ is on our side!"

My guess is that gay people are saying this in open and affirming churches all over California today.

I think Mormons have only let blacks join their church since the late 70s so it is hardly surprising they are a little behind on gays.

Peter, that is patently false. Blacks have been allowed to join The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints since day one in 1830 when the Church was founded. Since 1978, as the result of a revelation, all worthy male members are able to receive the priesthood. In ancient Israel, the priesthood was restricted to the tribe of Levi. Now it is available to every man/family regardless of lineage.

Sig: I have grave doubts that their leadership can continue to wield church influence in as high-handed a manner as they've done recently, while still claiming neutrality for tax purposes.

I always understood that the First Amendment clause Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof pertained to the government's establishing a state church i.e. such as the English government established the Anglican church, with Parliament deciding doctrine and taxing the citizens (subjects in their case) to support it.

I fail to see how Mormons' (or other religious institutions) protesting what they consider to be evil laws should impact their tax status. Let Congress remove the tax exemption for all religious and charitable organizations if they will, but the right to protest is guaranteed in the next clause of the same amendment: or abridging the freedom of speech.

The right not to be taxed is no right at all, merely a legislatively granted privilege.

DavidTC: Never heard that one.

My hobby is biblical exegesis. I do it instead of going to church.

I have heard one that said 'rib' is a euphemism, and women were made out of another part of man's anatomy...a part that Jews traditionally remove, and made into a part that women have...if you see where that's going.

Mmm. Yes I do. But Sig said she was a "spare rib", not a "spare bib."

"being treated with outright loathing by many gays because of the LDS Church's paramount role in defending traditional marriage in California."

I thought the behavior that was threatening traditional marriage was straight unmarried men inseminating women they are not married to, and walking away from the offspring, and spouses having affairs and divorcing? I must have been wrong. It's gays wanting to get married. Thanks for the correction.

I find it hard to believe that a majority of California voters are members of the "religious right." The reality is that most people do not think that changing the definition of marriage to accomodate the very small percentage of people with same-sex attraction is a good idea. As they say, "get used to it."

Furthermore, if one is a member of a tiny minority whose identifying trait is something that most people still consider to be immoral and mystifying, I can think of no better way to continue to re-inforce the majority's sense that we should not be too accomodating then scenes of elderly women being harrassed, churches being over-run, or claims that the majority are just a bunch of irrational haters.

Keep up the good work. You are making the work of those opposed to "gay marriage" all the easier.

sigaliris,: "And they might then draw the larger conclusion that all religious stories are similar--teaching myths made up by people to codify cultural beliefs, rather than factual information directly infused by God."

That's pretty much the conclusion I reached at 16.

Karen Brown : "Or maybe everyone concerned is merely exercising their free speech rights. Last I checked, that right works in both directions."

I've said the same thing twice in the Reformed Chicks blog. Supporting prop eight and boycotts are two sides of the same coin. As long as everyone stays within the law everything is fine.

The LDS decided to make a statement with their support of proposition 8. To assume that making the statement would bring no consequences was naive. They stoop up for what they believed in and should now accept the consequences of that decision.

There is a consequence to every action we make.

Chris Mills

The Stupid Chris -

You left out Carson, Dominguez Hills, Long Beach, Downey, Altadena, Gardena, and a few other places. :-)

Brian New Age Cowboy November 16, 2008 3:08 PM Utah (Deseret) was nearly denied statehood over LDS polygamy. It is odd that the LDS church figured on bothering with gay folks. I used to respect Mormons for soft-peddling there religion. Anybody can refuse to answer the door for missionaries. Now it seems like they want to rival the James Dobson/Jerry Falwell obnoxious witch hunts.

Maybe Mitt Romney's candidacy emboldened them.

The Stupid Chris, in response to your statement "Seems interesting, and sad, to me that a religion that moved its adherents across the country in order to practice their non-traditional marriages...". Understand that the members of the LDS Church moved because they were being persecuted for their beliefs. There was an extermination order issued by Gov. Boggs and they were forced out of Missouri. That is why they went west, NOT because they wanted to practice polygamy. Secondly, even in polygamy, marriage consisted of a union between a man and a woman. The "Rights" that gay's want can be provided through a civil union which the LDS church is entirely in favor of. The LDS church feels that marriage between a man and a woman is a sacred institution, ordained of God, between a man and a woman. The church has every right to speak out on moral and ethical issues. The problem is how the Gay community has reacted. People say "Well, those Mormons are getting what they deserved", what the HELL are they talking about? It was put to a vote! Mormons as well as thousands of others voted in favor of Prop 8 and it passed! If the vote had gone the other way do you think the Mormon church would have started vandalizing the properties of those who were against Prop 8? Not likely, and if they had no one would have stood for it. So why is that there is so much hate? And the "hate" (vandalism, persecution, violence) that I referring to has come from these protests.

So what happened in 1978? My understanding is that from 1850 to 1978 blacks could not become priests because Mormons viewed blacks as cursed. If becoming a priest is a fairly average thing that most Mormons do at some point in their lives then I would consider that not letting blacks join your church or at the very least viewing them as second class Mormons.

Conflating gay marriage with polygamy isn't fair. Yeah, they're both unusual marriage arrangements. But if you subscribe to Abrahamic religion, polygamy qualifies as "traditional" marriage.

BTW-I'm very skeptical of claims regarding the nature of David & Jonathan's relationship.

The Mormon reaction to gay marriage should be viewed in light of how the Boy Scouts have been harassed. For years, the ACLU has filed costly bogus lawsuits claiming that the BSA was denying gay people civil rights.

So it's bizarre to hear secular people complain about religious people using the law to force their views on others. Mormons, like gays, just want to be left alone.

Matt November 16, 2008 5:16 PM FYI since there seems to be confusion. Mormons and Catholics are Christians whether "christians" like it or not.

Only in a generic sense that a "Christian" is someone who maintains faith in and allegiance to Christ, and takes His name as their own. Once you begin to define what doctrines a Christian must believe and what practices a Christian must do, the assertion that "Mormons and Catholics are Christians" requires further definition and explanation, and some may indeed conclude and hold that Mormons and/or Catholics are not Christians.

But I'll agree that according to Mattianity, Mormons and Catholics are Christians.

Eric: Romney emboldened no one. Mormons have been at the forefront of opposing gay-marriage since it first became an issue in Hawaii during the 90's. If anything, Mitt Romney's candidacy exposed young Mormons to anti-Mormon feeling for the first time in their lives.

PLEASE NOTE: I understand that they vast majority of Romney's detractors didn't care about his religion. There are plenty of policy-based reasons to oppose Romney. But there are some who are extremely nasty to Mormons. They became very vocal during the 2008 Republican Primary.

The serpent said that the apple would make Eve like God. The sin in the garden was Pride. It didn't have anything to do with sex.

Hell, many "true christians" refuse to recognize that Mormons are Christian, refuse to nominate a Mormon president and vehemently protest the opening of new Mormon temples.

Maybe it's because Mormonism is founded on the claim that all the other so-called "Christian" churches are false. I.e., it's a bit disingenuous to demand respect from other churches when you believe they are all corrupt and damned. Here it is, straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak:

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

From:

1 Owing to the many reports which have been put in circulation by evil-disposed and designing persons, in relation to the rise and progress of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, all of which have been designed by the authors thereof to militate against its character as a Church and its progress in the world—I have been induced to write this history, to disabuse the public mind, and put all inquirers after truth in possession of the facts, as they have transpired, in relation both to myself and the Church, so far as I have such facts in my possession.
2 In this history I shall present the various events in relation to this Church, in truth and righteousness, as they have transpired, or as they at present exist, being now [1838] the eighth year since the organization of the said Church.
3 I was born in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and five, on the twenty-third day of December, in the town of Sharon, Windsor county, State of Vermont . . . My father, Joseph Smith, Sen., left the State of Vermont, and moved to Palmyra, Ontario (now Wayne) county, in the State of New York, when I was in my tenth year, or thereabouts. In about four years after my father’s arrival in Palmyra, he moved with his family into Manchester in the same county of Ontario—
4 His family consisting of eleven souls, namely, my father, Joseph Smith; my mother, Lucy Smith (whose name, previous to her marriage, was Mack, daughter of Solomon Mack); my brothers, Alvin (who died November 19th, 1823, in the 26th year of his age), Hyrum, myself, Samuel Harrison, William, Don Carlos; and my sisters, Sophronia, Catherine, and Lucy.
5 Some time in the second year after our removal to Manchester, there was in the place where we lived an unusual excitement on the subject of religion. It commenced with the Methodists, but soon became general among all the sects in that region of country. Indeed, the whole district of country seemed affected by it, and great multitudes united themselves to the different religious parties, which created no small stir and division amongst the people, some crying, “Lo, here!” and others, “Lo, there!” Some were contending for the Methodist faith, some for the Presbyterian, and some for the Baptist.
6 For, notwithstanding the great love which the converts to these different faiths expressed at the time of their conversion, and the great zeal manifested by the respective clergy, who were active in getting up and promoting this extraordinary scene of religious feeling, in order to have everybody converted, as they were pleased to call it, let them join what sect they pleased; yet when the converts began to file off, some to one party and some to another, it was seen that the seemingly good feelings of both the priests and the converts were more pretended than real; for a scene of great confusion and bad feeling ensued—priest contending against priest, and convert against convert; so that all their good feelings one for another, if they ever had any, were entirely lost in a strife of words and a contest about opinions.
7 I was at this time in my fifteenth year. My father’s family was proselyted to the Presbyterian faith, and four of them joined that church, namely, my mother, Lucy; my brothers Hyrum and Samuel Harrison; and my sister Sophronia.
8 During this time of great excitement my mind was called up to serious reflection and great uneasiness; but though my feelings were deep and often poignant, still I kept myself aloof from all these parties, though I attended their several meetings as often as occasion would permit. In process of time my mind became somewhat partial to the Methodist sect, and I felt some desire to be united with them; but so great were the confusion and strife among the different denominations, that it was impossible for a person young as I was, and so unacquainted with men and things, to come to any certain conclusion who was bright and who was wrong.
9 My mind at times was greatly excited, the cry and tumult were so great and incessant. The Presbyterians were most decided against the Baptists and Methodists, and used all the powers of both reason and sophistry to prove their errors, or, at least, to make the people think they were in error. On the other hand, the Baptists and Methodists in their turn were equally zealous in endeavoring to establish their own tenets and disprove all others.
10 In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be aright, which is it, and how shall I know it?
11 While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
12 Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.
13 At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in darkness and confusion, or else I must do as James directs, that is, ask of God. I at length came to the determination to “ask of God,” concluding that if he gave wisdom to them that lacked wisdom, and would give liberally, and not upbraid, I might venture.
14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.
15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.
16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

Newsflash Eric:

Most Christian sects believe the others have it wrong. Evangelicals think Mormons have it wrong, Mormons think Catholics have it wrong, Catholics think Baptists have it wrong. What goes unsaid in polite circles is that "having it wrong" gets you a one-way ticket to hell--at least historically.

If you want to claim here on this thread that historically Protestants/Catholics/Fundamentalists (of any branch)/Mormons think that the others are equally correct in theology and therefore have an equal path to salvation, be my guest. Its intellectually dishonest to criticize Mormons for thinking other Christians are a false or lesser Faith when Evangelicals and Catholics--at least until recently--think the same thing.

But I get it, you think Mormons aren't Christian, or at least are heretical Christians.

Matt, I don't see how you can avoid the conclusion that Mormons are, at best, heretical Christians. As I understand it, they don't believe in the Trinity--that is, they think God the Father and God the Son are two entirely separate persons. Flaws in one's Trinitarianism have been one of the major crash landings for heresy in the Christian church since its inception. I suspect that many Mormons who eagerly claim to be Christian don't really understand Christian theology.

Charlotte, you poor dear.

"Well, let's see...donating time, manpower and unbelievable amounts of money to promote bigoted and discriminatory legislation that takes away the rights of tax-paying American citizens?"

No one had rights taken away. Every single person in this country has the exact same right to enter into marriage with someone of the opposite gender.

"Want gays to like you? Stop being such homophobic jerks."

Want gay marriage to pass next election? Try formulating a logical and reasonable argument to support your cause instead of relying on emotion and terrorism. Jerks, indeed.

Dear Wow Eric W:

I'm not obsessed at all, just pointing out:

1) Mormon theology is weird and not what reasonable people of the Bible-conversant type should believe or consider acceptable, and

2) For Mormons to be upset because other Christians don't think that Mormons are Christians is rather hypocritical, because Mormonism is based and founded on the divine vision and revelation that all other churches are wrong, their leaders corrupt, and their creeds an abomination.

Just because "Other Christians also think they're the only ones who are right, and that the others are wrong" doesn't negate the fact that Mormons are divinely tied to a rejection and repudiation of all non-Mormon forms of Christianity.

But don't take my word for it. As a voice told St. Augustine, "Take and read."

If you can't get a life, get a wife or a fife. Then you can at least make merry or make music.

Yea Mormons thinking God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ are two separate beings. What are those cultish Mormons thinking? Thats absolute heresy! Last time I checked myself and my father were two separate people. The only thing heretical is trying to combine two separate Gods into one and make sense of it. But hey if you want to follow the Nicean Creed thats your choice. I wonder what would happen to the definition of God if we left it up to the politicans in our day? Myself I would rather follow my God-given logic that when two things appear separate... they ARE separate. I don't try and combine the moon into the sun or the sun into the moon when they are obviously two very distinct and separate entities. But hey if it makes you feel better to say God is big enough to fill the immensity of the universe but small enough to fit into my heart...thats your right...just ask yourself what sounds more wacky to believe and there-in lies the truth.

How odd that people are critical of Mormon beliefs and call them weird and unbelievable while spouting an also weird and unbelievable religious story of their own. Get real, it's all fairy tales. What's the difference between mainstream ones and Mormon ones-just the number of people brainwashed into believing them. You are all idiots!!!!

Sigaliris is right. Mormons do not believe in the classic 3 is 1, 1 is 3 trinity, but frankly, no one else did until the early Roman/Christian councils.

Wrong, please try to get your history from a more reliable source than Dan Brown.

I appreciate what the Mormons did to help pass Prop 8. We need to stand with them in this time, even while our beliefs differ theologically.

Rod,
Thank you so much for addressing this issue. It's not been pleasant the last couple of weeks to be Mormon, and I personally appreciate anyone who has the courage to speak out in support of us. I certainly agree that people have the right to exercise their free speech, but it is a bit disheartening to be singled out for protesting, boycotting, and general nastiness. Ordinarily I don't have occasion to remember that Mormons are kind of an easy target, but recently it's been rather hard to ignore. So, again, thanks Rod, and everyone else on this thread for your kind words--those who have spoken kinds words, that is. :-) It's mighty decent of you.

Jillian: "Mormonism as a religion actively seeks converts, i.e. it is expansionist and will not leave us nonMormons alone in the long run. As an overtly occultic religion it cannot and it will not genuinely accept any external authority or assumption of human dignity outside itself, and our experience with such groups is...not good. After all, such groups always believe themselves perpetually at war with the rest of society. In the end they always act on their belief that the uninitiated are not real human beings."

Are you saying that Mormons actively proselytise? In that case, they are no more objectionable than Christians, Dawkins-type atheists, Hare Krishnas, etc. Unless you want to ban proselytism (freedom of speech and belief, anyone?), I don't see your objection.

If, on the other hand, you are saying that Mormons are "perpetually at war", in the sense of actual violence, rather than spiritual warfare, fighting one's own demons, yadayada, then you really should back that up with some evidence. You seem to me to be just making wild allegations.

What do you mean by "occultic".__

And yeah, that was me. Darn system. If you don't type the text in the box correctly, it redirects you to try again, but apparently wipes out the name box. Found out too late to change.

And I think, by 'occultic', they may be referring to the 'secret knowledge' portion of the definition. Which, since they do have portions of their theology and practice they do not make available to the public, both the rites themselves, and information about those rites and requirements, it does kind of qualify.

Come on, Sig. That's just an allegory. The meaning is clear: Eve tempted Adam with the Forbidden Fruit - viz. anal sex. This is the "knowledge" that is prohibited, where "knowledge" is used in the Hebrew sense. The stern condemnation of unnatural sex is repeated many times in other books of the Bible.

It's hard enough for a man to get his woman to do that, you're telling us a snake talked the first woman into THAT?