Our NPSM moments (Rod)

Rod, my sincerest regrets and best wishes that you both recover soon.

Shirley Jackson wrote a wonderful short story on this many years ago. It was republished in "Life Among the Savages". You might enjoy it.

May is less than 5 months away....

Sorry if I am nitpicking here but this:

"I think we'll be hearing a lot more of this in the years to come."

is a somewhat lame and decidedly too lenient reaction to what this despicable fool said - and no, I don't give a damn if he is a veteran, he could have 3 purple hearts for all I care: If he - or anyone - calls for a military coup he wishes for chaos, death and destruction.
Ergo he is a sorry excuse for a human being and certainly not doing justice to the tradition of the uniform he used to wear.

Seriously, what's with all this apocalyptic talk?

Anyone who feels some more than a split-second gut sympathy with these comments should seriously think about what they value in life and reassess their judgement.

I'm not sure that being governed by the military is any worse than the de facto rule of the corporate (especially financial) elite that we now have. Would the generals be any more rapacious than Goldman-Sachs? Any more blood thirsty than the neo-cons and the oil companies? Any more contemptuous of our rights than the current bunch of yahoos that we jokingly call our representatives? Probably not. Now I'm not calling for a military coup and don't think one will happen regardless, but one might be preferable to what is probably coming in the future. Military coups are often accomplish with no or little bloodshed, civil revolts never are.

It is a shame that Rod didn't ask this elderly veteran to elaborate on what straightening them out would entail.

Four of my great uncles and my grandfather defended the United States of America in W.W.II. One lugged his gear and artillery to the fight through the Italian mountains with pack mules where no trucks would dare. Another swept for mines in the roiling Pacific, which swallowed one of the ships in his flotilla after tearing off its rudder.

They all charged straight into hell so Americans could keep the liberty that allows them To Make BREATHTAKINGLY IGNORANT COMMENTS ABOUT THE MEN AND WOMEN WHO PROVIDE FOR THEIR SECURITY!

Try on that veterans shoes. The sentiment is this. Much of the country they fought for is no longer recognizable to them. It results in great frustration to think that the sacrifice they made all those years ago is being squandered, in the name of political correctness, by cretins WHO THINK THE UNITED STATES IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL.

So, next time bite your tongue before you lash out against those who are greater than you will ever hope to be.

BAH.

"It results in great frustration to think that the sacrifice they made all those years ago is being squandered, in the name of political correctness, by cretins WHO THINK THE UNITED STATES IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL."

Actually, they fought for the right to think the U.S. is the root of all evil. They were fighting for democracy and free speech. Now he wants us to turn into Russia or some banana republic, run by a military junta.

"Bring in the military and straighten things out"... waidaminnit... An elderly person would NEVER stoop to hyperbole in leiu of reasoned discussion, simply to punctuate a strong opinion!! Er, wait...

The suggestion that these veterens don't understand the value of our republic and want to Stalinize it is preposterous.

Preposterous indeed - except that, as reported, that is what the fellow said he wanted to see.

That would be "death throes."

Maybe it is time for the U.S. to have our own military coup. After all, we certainly have supported, and sometimes even arranged, the coups in other countries that have always turned out so well.

Military coups usually only work in countries with little history of democratic behavior. The "career military" even suggests a political stance, there will be an instant national breakdown. Civil war would breakout within weeks. There would be disagreement within the ranks. Enlisted personnel would refuse to take orders. And distinct political divisions, and eventual battle confrontation, would occur within the branches of the military. And how anyone can think that the military is the answer, clearly didn't see it in Viet Nam.

It takes some of the worst kind of decadence to suggest that FDR sent 416,800 Americans to their death for money and politics. Only a truly diseased mind could conjure up such a notion.

If you ever come up with a real argument, you will let me know, won't you? Something based on something other than your own personal outrage and refusal to consider facts. In the meantime perhaps you should become familiar with what a former Commandant of the Marine Corp had to say about the matter; just Google "War is a Racket" by Smedley Butler.

If we had failed to respond to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor (but why did we respond first in Europe?), there would have been no affect on America, Japan wasn't interested in attacking the US mainland, they just wanted us out of "their" side of the Pacific. Furthermore, if Roosevelt hadn't left the US fleet exposed at Pearl, there never would have been a Japanese attack. Don't you think that it is a remarkable coincidence that the really important ships, the carriers, were elsewhere at the time? But Roosevelt needed something to force Americans out of their isolationism, so he allowed the fleet to be exposed. And yes, I realize that this reading of history makes Roosevelt into a monster, or at least more than willing to let the ends justify the means, any means.

Re: If we had failed to respond to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor (but why did we respond first in Europe?),

Um, because Germany declared war on the United States on Dec 8, 1941?
And are you really trying to claim that a nation that ignores an attack on its own territory is likely to be left in peace by fiercely imperialistic powers hellbent on conquests?
I have some Florida swampland to sell you if you believe that. I'll even arrange you a subprime loan.

Re: Never in my life, in multiple settings no less,have I heard or read people, so causually throw out stuff about having a civil war,etc.

The late 70s were rife with this sort of apocalypic talk. In fact there were plural apocalypses pending: economic collapse, overpopulation, a new Ice Age, nuclear war, a Soviet takeover if the whole world. I was just a child at the time (I'm 41 now) but I recall the late 70s being a real scary time with all the End Of The World as we know it talk. Not to mention disco, dayglo colors in everything, and the lesiure suit.

Re: The US was in no danger from either Japan or Germany.

In what alternate reality? One where Germany was ruled by Goethe's great-great-grandson Germany and Japan was a peaceable kingdom of meditating Buddhists? Good grief, what is the proper response to a declaration of war (not to mention an actual attack) on one's country?
But let's say that hadn't happened and the US stayed out of the war. The world we'd have ended up with would not be a pretty one either. Either a Soviet Union dominating all Eurasia (with nuclear missiles pointed our way), or a Third Reich and Greater East Asia Coprosperity Sphere doing the same (again, with nuclear missiles). Thank-you but no. I'll take VE Day, VJ Day and the triumph the West in 1989 over those horrors any day. Forget who said it, bit there is no substitute for victory
And as to why the Pacific Fleet was at Pearl Harbor-- that was its frigging homebase! Where would you expect the United States to base its Pacific Fleet? In Tierra Del Fuego?

And as to why the Pacific Fleet was at Pearl Harbor-- that was its frigging homebase! Where would you expect the United States to base its Pacific Fleet? In Tierra Del Fuego?

When you have a good reason to expect an attack, and they did, your ships should be out at sea where they can defend themselves, not left in port where they are sitting ducks. This also raises the question as to why the important ships, the carriers, were not in port, but out at sea, leaving the obsolete and fairly useless battleships and cruisers in port.

Re: neither Germany, nor Japan, were a threat to American freedom or liberty in this or any other reality.

You can claim this till pigs fly, the sun rises in the west and the Devil has to buy thermal underwear-- but repetition will not make it true. My father fought in WWII and he was, yep, fighting for "us" (meaning the America and the Americans alive at the time-- I didn't coem along till many years later).
And I'm done arguing this point, since your version of reality has all the credibility of Holocaust denial (which I suspect is lurking in the shadows somewhere here too), or those who claim that Black people are closer to the apes.
Ave atque vale.

I will add that I have heard discussions of how America might benefit from a coup. The discussions generally focus around both Parties now being incompetent and corrupt and controlled by a small Ruling Elite, rather than The People.
The "conversation", if you wish to call it such, also folds in problems like: A rapidly falling standard of living in the US as younger people face the prospect of a 28-35% payroll tax to pay off the boomers spending away their retirement and leaving America with a 45 trillion unfunded debt of SS, medicare, previous Fed debt. A legal system that has gone from "swift and sure" to Talmudic - where the goal is endless debate & billable hours, obstruction, and appeals before anything from an unsafe road to a serial killer gets "fixed". Globalists targeting nearly every good American job in private industry and services plus every patent and technology lead we have as intellectual property -for export to Asia(outside Elite professions like Law and Finance reserved for elitist spawn).

Add to that news of, since the early 90s, Wall Street investment bankers , West Coast glitterati, and DC lawyers buying up "ranches" in Montana, Wyoming, Idaho relete with 10,000 gallon fuel oil, diesel,and gas tanks with warehouse larders stocked with "supplies", and private security forces.

Their own Private Idaho. Their safety hedge and vote of confidence in the America they have set up and sold out since the 80s.

I imagine that unless things get absolutely dire and civilian gov't and the judges and lobbyists that reign over it become completely ineffectual, the military would hesitate to do a coup. But if that did arise, the support would be there within and without the military to save the intent of the Constitution if not complying with every letter of it (Lincolns own dilemma) in order to save it for the future. Implicit in this is the reluctance of the military to serve a fabulously rich Oligarchy in control of government over newly impoverished American masses and avoid becoming another Latin American country would be greater than the reluctance to launch a coup and fix the country under the legal scope of Emergency Powers.

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Astorian I mean, what would an American would-be Napoleon do? Seize the White House? And THEN what? He COULDN'T shut down the media, he COULDN'T subdue or command the obedience of a nation of 300 million with the manpower presently available.

A coup simply couldn't succeed in the first place, and couldn't last long if it did.

If things get bad enough in America, I think you are dead wrong on all counts:

1. It would not be a Napoleon, but a committee placed in power with a platform of urgent fixes the country, in desperate crisis after the mistakes, inaction, and overreach of both Parties, the Elites, and the Courts got us there and were unable to fix the mess they made of America.

2. The military would have the necessary support, if they have the support of 90% of Americans made desperate and believing the future of their children is lost unless Revolutionary action is employed. (The Revolutionary War and Civil War were not won by lawyers talking or plutocrats bribing...but by committed men under arms. And Jefferson said liberty and prosperity may indeed have to be refreshed and reaffirmed by shedding the blood of elites exerting tyranny over the expressed Will of The People).

3. Most Americans believe that the Will of the People is sovereign over Rule of Law...if law is subverted by the Elites to oppress the average American...the right to openly rebel exists, rather than be good little mindless drones doing what the ruler, cop, and magistrate demand.
Rebellions against existing "Rule of Law" like Jacksonian Democracy, the Grange, the Prairie Revolt, the unionization movement, the drive to end "rule of law" over the people exerted by the Robber Barons, early 1900s radicalism, draft riots, civil rights movement all involved violence and civil disobedience. Passive, law-abiding protest against entrenched power was ineffective on its own.

4. A coup would come in with a finite life, as Americans would NOT accept a permanent ruling junta. It would have strong military and civilian leaders in it's junta, and would ask for support of the public for 5-7 years to fix things elected, co-opted government and courts failed to fix in the last 40 years. Then from the start, make it a pledge that it had to hold free elections in the near future - ironclad assurance since any coup by it's nature was a temporary measure that must yield to a permanent democratic structure or lose the loyalty of it's citizen troops and support of the People to do what the coup defined as "urgent fixes necessary to preserve the Nation".

5. Yes, if the military had to, it could shut down (as much as it wanted, it would probably prefer to have dissent permitted up to the point of it being used to create organized opposition groups) the ability of anti-coup forces to use mass communications to rally and rail against the coup. Far easier than Astorian imagines, since most modern comms pass through key nodes like satellites, telecomm switching and server centers, radio&TV stations any C3 military person knows well and has built-in ability to stop or control.

6. The "armed citizen" fantasy would meet reality. Open massed armed warfare against US forces would be as successful as the Taliban was in Afghanistan in 2001 or Iraq in later years, especially if the coup came with obligated military sevice for young males facing losing half their paycheck to pay for the Boomers pissing away the accumulated wealth of America, then expecting a life of luxury and free golf for 30 years in retirement, free medical care, regular pension checks, and passing on all their assets untaxed.
Nor would there be "jack-booted storm troopers" mowed down trying to arrest a "heroic armed citizen: with his beloved, well-oiled and stroked daily .45 or super moose rifle in ending a standoff. Just a call for someone advocating people rally to kill troops and preserve "Freedom! for Fatcats!" to turn themselves in from their barricaded home..Or, the order would simply be given to cut off electricity, water, mail, any food delivery, and jam all wireless at the home or a limited area near the home....and to seize any accounts and freeze credit of the individual..(Zey have veys!!)

So.

What were all those posters of Che in Obama's campaign offices supposed to be an indication of? A Sunday picnic?

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Coup?

Do any of you even know anyone in the military? Have you been to an Air Force base or spent any time on a carrier or hung out with Marines at 29 Palms?

In case you haven't noticed, they are the best Americans. Sorry if that bunches up your panties, but it's true.

Our young people in the military understand orders, chain of command, history and duty and have a purpose for their lives better than the vast majority of civilian kids who stay adolescent into their 30's. How many Ivy League, UCLA or Berkeley grads would die for their country, or even for their family, much less for a concept like “liberty?”

You really don't get our military, do you? If our military wanted to take this country over, nothing could stop them. They have the weapons, communication and organization to do it, and always have.

Every other nation that had such a military had such a coup. But not the US. Why?

It's simple, really: the men and women of our military love this country, honor our flag and have vowed to defend to their death that flag and the Constitution it represents. To our citizen soldiers, words have meaning, very unlike our lying politicians, who are mostly lawyers now and argue about the meaning of “is” while taking bribes and selling favors.

The growing disconnect is that our politicians, though they mouth that same oath to the Constitution, operate like they are royalty. See: Ted Kennedy, Charles Rangel, Barney Frank, Chris Dodd and especially our recently crowned Barack Obama, who actually said the Constitution was a "flawed document" because it didn't give the Federal government enough power to redistribute wealth.

Now, for those of us who believe words and vows have meaning ("marriage," for instance) what happens in America when our political representatives violate that oath to the Constitution?

What is the recourse if the Constitution is actually violated by the very people elected to govern according to it?

I am one of those military veterans, 21 years, retired as a Ltc. Setting aside all the chatter about a coup the basic question is: "what is the line that can't be crossed" at which time citizens must act to defend our Constitution? I took an oath 6 times to protect and defend the Constitution. As a military officer that believes I took a life-long vow, as a citizen who believes the nation established by our founders under our Constitution is the true United States, how long do we, as citizens, wait and hope and pray that the Washington elites will come to their senses and return to our founder's dream? What is that "line" that can't be crossed? I fear we are headed towards it at break-neck speed. Time will tell.

Oh man. The only thing more depressing than this post was reading Koblog's comment above.

Well, why wouldn't idiots think that they have to "destroy the Constitution in order to save it" when even their supposed leading lights have said as much in the National Review? Thomas Sowell actually wrote, "When I see the worsening degeneracy in our politicians, our media, our educators, and our intelligentsia, I can’t help wondering if the day may yet come when the only thing that can save this country is a military coup."

I find it disgusting that conservatives think they can claim to be true patriots even when they suggest that democracy doesn't work, Americans are decadent idiots and our nation is a failed experiment. As a veteran myself and the husband of a currently serving Naval officer, I also believe that the oath I took is a lifelong oath to protect this nation against all enemies "foreign and domestic." Advocating a coup means you just made the list.