Were the Jewish victims tortured?
Wednesday December 3, 2008
Categories: Islamic terrorism
And if so, why is it not being reported in the US media, though it was in the Telegraph? That's what Marshall Herskovitz wants to know. Excerpt: Who were those doctors quoted in the original Telegraph story, and why did...
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About Crunchy Con
Rod Dreher is an editorial columnist for the Dallas Morning News, and author of "Crunchy Cons" (Crown Forum), a nonfiction book about conservatives, most of them religious, whose faith and political convictions sometimes put them at odds with mainstream conservatives. The views expressed in this blog are his own.
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If the Jerusalem Post is quoting an Indian source as saying the Jews among the massacred were not tortured, why on earth would you venture a second guess? Rod, in this and many other pieces, you seem to be heavily invested in stirring up intense negative emotion, more concerned about upset than issue.
What does the MSM know about torture? They've been waffling on the US's treatment of prisoners for years.
There are no reported signs of torture, so clearly torture must have been used. A whopping 5/184ths of the victims were at the Chabad House, so clearly this was an attack aimed at Jews. And no-one at all covered the Mumbai attacks, so clearly this is a media conspiracy to keep the facts from the public.
Since Marshall Herskovitz, a nice guy who wrote and produced thirtyomething and My So-Called Life, wrote this it must be true!!!
One word: wow.
Rod, it was the Mail yesterday, today the Telegraph - you could do with getting a grip with which UK newspapers you read. The Times and Independent are reasonably intelligent and reliable. The Mail is alarmist, fearful, anti-intellectual, and sort of nervously lower-middle-class. The Telegraph is right-wing and bellicose, weirdly imagining that the UK is important enough to matter. The Guardian is for self-congratulatory former-student-radical public-sector employees, and pushes all the PC buttons, even when bizarrely incompatible - both pro-Muslim and pro-gay, for example. Hope this helps.
Perhaps, Rod, the reason the MSM has not reported on it is exactly what you have cited...we really do not yet know what happened to those victims. One source says they were tortured (and many alarmist "news" outlets have run with this), another says they were not (and the Jerusalem Post, hardly a pro-Muslim paper, has reported this).
Perhaps the MSM is doing something you seem incapable of doing...waiting until the evidence is in.
Why would it be game changing? Lashkar has used similar kinds of attacks in the past. I guess it would be game changing since they figured out that adding in some Americans, Europeans and Jews would be sure to get them more news coverage. It would also get more accusations about Muslims. Americans who don't know squat about the complexities of the politics, feel free to rant about large groups who had nothing to do with the attacks. The West is being manipulated.
Steve
Rod,
I might be wrong, but I believe the torture story began with this article.
I think Herskovitz is being hysterical. First, there's no evidence that they were tortured, and at least one reliable on site pronouncement that they were not. Second, even if they were tortured, the only real question would be whether they were the *only* people tortured - torture is evil, but if any of the non-Jewish victims were tortured, then no one was specifically targetting the Jews. Personally, while I understand Jewish hyper-sensitivity about being targetted in any way, I think these leaps to conclusions make us look foolish and make people take real issues of anti-semitism far less seriously.
I think there are several possible answers to Herskovitz's question, "Why is the Chabad Center Torture Not Being Reported?" One is that reporting facts from this story might make Muslim terrorists look bad, and we wouldn't want to do that. The other is that these people were being tortured for "fun" by the extremists, not for any intelligence reasons by American agents, so it's really not a story. Dog bites man, big deal.
That "your name" comment above was me. Here's another good article.
Fascinating. Herskovitz could have used this very combox as further evidence that people want to sweep muslim hatred of jews under the rug.
Fascinating. Herskovitz could have used this very combox as further evidence that people want to sweep muslim hatred of jews under the rug.
It isn't like it is any big secret that some Muslims hate Jews and vice versa.
Fascinating. Herskovitz could have used this very combox as further evidence that people want to sweep muslim hatred of jews under the rug.
Philosemitism strikes me as the greater danger here.
The NY Times is reporting that they were indeed probably tortured: http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2008%2F12%2F05%2Fworld%2Fasia%2F05mumbai.html&h=52a40e350eac5017adfac08e6bdfa0e1
Although, interestingly, adhering to politically correct sensitivities no doubt, the NY Times merely labels it "abuse."
The rabbi's wife was 5 months' pregnant, if anyone cares.
And they probably did this in front of the kids.
So eat your words, jihadist defenders.
"adhering to politically correct sensitivities no doubt, the NY Times merely labels it "abuse.""
They were afraid to call interrogation tactics approved by the Bush administration "torture" also. I think they've used similar vague terms in describing the tactics of the Israeli government.
"Game-changing"? Seriously?
That would be a stretch for the maltreatment of any group, but is Herskovitz seriously claiming that this marks a new low in subhuman behaviour towards *the Jews*?
"So eat your words, jihadist defenders."
Yes, terrible jihadist defenders such as the Jerusalem Post.
www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1227702405844&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
They are even suggesting that the Indian Commandos may have killed some of these hostages.
pqasb.pqarchiver.com/jpost/access/1606204531.html?dids=1606204531:1606204531&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Dec+1%2C+2008&author=YAAKOV+LAPPIN&pub=Jerusalem+Post&edition=&startpage=1&desc=Indian+commandos+may+have+killed+some+Chabad+hostages%2C+ZAKA+head+tells+'Post'.+Holtzberg+apparently+wrapped+wife's+body+in+tallit+before+his+death
"The Indian commando raid launched to save the lives of Jewish and Israeli hostages at Mumbai's Chabad House may have inadvertently ended the lives of one or more of the hostages, the head of a six-man ZAKA team in the terror- stricken Indian city told The Jerusalem Post on Sunday."
But then again, this is from a jihadist loving source, the Jerusalem Post, so we can't trust it at all, can we.
The Wall Street Journal is also reporting that the Jewish victims of the Mumbai attacks were tortured. The victims had names, among them, Gavriel and Rivka Holtzberg. A friend of mine, a socialist from El Salvador, knew and was good friends with Rivka, and said she was a wonderful person.
The sort of hate that led these young men to torture their Jewish victims was utterly heedless of the victims. I pray for the souls of the victims, and of their persecutors.
The Wall Street Journal is also reporting that the Jewish victims of the Mumbai attacks were tortured. The victims had names, among them, Gavriel and Rivka Holtzberg. A friend of mine, a socialist from El Salvador, knew and was good friends with Rivka, and said she was a wonderful person.
The sort of hate that led these young men to torture their Jewish victims was utterly heedless of the victims. I pray for the souls of the victims, and of their persecutors.
This is a very alarming, sad and disturbing event, and I agree that the way it is being reported in the international media is perplexing. However, was torture in fact involved? An interview with the nanny in today's UK Daily Telegraph (11/12/08 features page) quotes her as saying that she snatched up the crying child from beside his prone parents - there was some blood at the feet of the father, and the mother looked as though she was asleep. Would this be likely if they were tortured? I ask this as an open question: Are there hidden agendas on both sides of this story?
This is an escalation and a blatent attempt to slaugher people because they are Jews. This is homicidal murder. The photo's of the scene show a horrible bloody picture that can only be described as someone who was left to bleed to death. Were they tortured? Who knows ... all indications are that they were.
Will this assault draw Pakistan and India into the war the Jihadists want? It's possible ... We will soon see.
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