Bumper sticker genocide

Yeah, well, what goes around comes around.

Too bad so sad.

"Yeah, well, what goes around comes around."

Yeah, what jerks for wanting to protect their own people from terrorist attacks. Care to re-post that using your own name, coward?

Just call me Andy Anonymous, o brave one.

Daniel, I've been reading Steyn for years and have never seen him make such a comment. Would you care to provide a citation? Or do you expect us to rely on your mischaracterization of what Steyn has written?

Killing 50 or 60 Palestinians for every Israeli killed, hoping to "teach a lesson" or "achieve a deterrent effect"....

Hmmm. Try replacing Palestinian with German or Japanese, and you have World War II. Though in your world, that's likely a different calculus since the perpetrators weren't, you know, The Jews.

"Daniel, Are you an idiot, or do you just play one in blog comments."

Speaking of idiots.

Anyway, one doesn't need to look far to find evidence of Steyn's intolerance and hatred of Islam and Muslims. This tactic of whining about Islamophobia while waging war against Islam only confuses the gullible. I don't need lecture on anti-Semitism from someone whose agenda is as intolerant and ugly as Steyn's.

The accusation of anti-semitism is often used to justify the unconscionable conduct of the Israeli military in Gaza, consistent with a long long record.

There, are, nevertheless, anti-semites, by which I don't just mean people who find Jews or some Jews not to their taste--I mean violent, paranoid antisemites--potential criminals themselves. If they didn't exist, the aggressive Zionists would have to invent them.

The existence of such nasty types does not mean we give Jewish criminals a "get out of jail free" card.

It is amazing to me to see all these pc leftists come to the pro-Palestinian, pro-Islamic side in these battles in Europe. It would be laughable if it wasn't so damn pathetic.

All I can say is that the leftists better hope they lose this battle, because if their allies prevail they will be the first ones tortured and killed under Sharia law. Gays and lesbians, socialists, communists, radical feminists, greens and eco-warriors, peaceniks, the whole damn lot of them, people who could and do live in peace and freedom in Israel, are going to prison and the gallows if they are ever ruled by their beloved Hamas or its Islamic allies in Europe.

The "Suicide of the West" before our very eyes as Europe learns to kiss the Islamic whip and obsequiously worships the ideology and religion that seeks its destruction.

'Only Israel attracts an intellectually respectable movement querying its very existence.'

I'm unsure how terrorists in Mumbai translates to 'an intellectually respectable movement'. How much, exactly, does Mark Steyn respect these terrorists? Inquiring minds want to know.

Likewise, I'd like someone to point to an actual 'intellectually respectable' group or person that actually advocates destroying Israel. No, a bumper sticker on a truck doesn't count...I'd make a pretty large bet that said person is a white supremacist, which certainly aren't very respected.(1) Neither are, and it pains me that I actually have to state this, terrorists in other countries.

However, recently, in this very country, there are various people asserting we should 'bomb Iran off the map', including some somewhat respectable people on the right, which sounds like advocating genocide to me.

1) Is it even worth mentioning that no one is who 'pro-Palestine' would even consider nuking Israel, which would, duh, destroy Palestine too? And the rather important-to-Muslims city of Jerusalem?

Joel
That said, what the Hell does Israel think it is accomplishing by slaughtering thousands of non-combatants? It is pointless (since no one, anywhere, believes that the Pals will become more *moderate* because of this) and it also meets any reasonable definition of war crimes.

As does barring ambulances from anywhere, at anytime, which has caused a few Palestine deaths.

Joel
I've been generally supportive of Israel for my whole adult life - they're the only functioning democracy in that part of the world, after all - but this is pushing me away. If Israelis really believe that bombing entire families is justifiable then they lose any claim to civilization.

Yeah, most of us start the way you do, trained to see Israel as a good guy, but it, every five years or so, does something completely horrible and counterproductive, killing hundreds and stirring up the outrage of the world, minus the US, which blocks any condemnation in the UN.

And you just have to sit and think 'Well, it's nice that my tax dollars are paying for killing all those innocent Muslim women and children. Maybe they won't notice. Oh, and look, Congress just issued a statement of support of their actions, that's great. I'll remember this the next time someone flies airplanes into buildings and I can't figure out why.'.

For me, this happened in the 90s, and I couldn't even tell you what it was anymore. For some people, it happened when they, a few years ago, invaded and destroyed half of Lebanon for no good reason.

But it happens to anyone who's paying attention to the situation...at some point you just go 'Uh...wait. What? How could that make things better?'

And then you start wondering what actually might happen if they didn't have our unwavering support and military aid: Might they actually be forced to behave in some reasonable manner and keep some sort of peace?

People don't realize this, but almost all meaningful breaks in hostilities are broken by Israel. Hamas, believe it or not, actually appears to honor cease-fires, and even keeps from attacking after cease-fires until Israel attacks, which it always does for some minor offense, or even none at all.

For example, the US is pretending Hamas broke this last cease fire: It didn't. Israel did, by killing several Hamas members. Non-US sources actually will admit this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfFMZ7Y-s_c

Fifteen rockets during the ceasefire, all of which Israel agrees weren't fired by Hamas, but some random kooks with rocket launchers, and not a single death. Then Israel attacks some people it claims were building a tunnel, inside Gaza, and kills six Hamas members, which in turn ends the ceasefire, which results in new rocket attacks, which results in the current bombings.

It's almost like Israel didn't like the ceasefire. Sorta the same way it decided, a few years ago, to take offense to Hezbollah kidnapping some of their soldiers, to exchange for Hezbollah soldiers, a game Israel and Hezbollah had been playing for years, but this time Israel decided to level half of Lebanon, thus making people even more dependent on Hezbollah, and stirring up almost as much anger and resentment as the first Israel/Lebanon war, which resulted in, of course, decades of Hezbollah power.

Jillian,

Things in my universe are actually rather straightforward, though it appears that you've completely misconstrued my query. I'll try to spell it out for you:

Japanese civilian deaths: 580,000
German civilian deaths: 1,540,000
US Civilian deaths: 1,700

(numbers from Wikipedia)

In your world, 50 or 60 Palestinians for each Israeli is apparently a moral outrage. I'm just wondering whether 317 Japanese civilians or 905 German civilians for each American civilian casualty is similarly outrageous in your moral calculus. Or, whether this calculus applies only when the more powerful nation is populated primarily by, you know, The Jews.

This is such a weird post given current events.

There's a good deal of anti-semitism in the world.

There's a good deal of anti-islamic prejudice and violence too.

It seems of paramount important right now for American conservatives to game the anecdotes in favor of overwhelmingly disproportionate anti-semitism.

It has something to do with Gaza. But the logic is too ... weird ... to spell out.

I'm the person who told Rod about the truck - trust me, based on the make and model, the driver was not your stereotypical white supremist (not unless that particular career field has seen a sudden increase in its earning potential).

What I find almost as appalling as someone driving the streets of Austin with such foul bumper stickers are some of the comments above. Richard nailed it when he called out Not Bono and Grumpy Old Man - you two are bigots. And Jillian, you're coming real close: "The tacit Israeli government policy of killing at least 10 Palestinians for every Israeli killed is just as immoralist and terroristic in design." Excuse me, are saying that it's actual governmental policy to kill ten for one?! That is probably the stupidest and most ill-informed comment in the history of Rod's blog. The Israelis bend over backwards, even to the point of putting their own troops in harm's way, to avoid civilian casualties. Unless you have solid proof of the existence of such a policy, then I'd suggest you do us all a favor and keep your trap shut.

For such a well recommended blog, many of its posters are profound idiots.

There is a choice to be made. The choices are between a modern people who are able to contribute to the world and are willing to live in peace with its neighbors if left unmolested. The second option are a people who do little else besides brood over their resentments and cultural failures while producing yet, another generation of fodder for the Jihad.

I would think most people living in the civilized world would choose the former over the latter people? Alas, it is not so. Americans take their nation for granted and they take the values that create civilization for granted. They think everyone must possess them in most every respect because all cultures are in general, equally valid. It is just not true.

Muslims that come into contact with the modern world are violent to a great extent because Muslim culture is primitive and backwards. Islam fears modernity like a propeller-driven plane fears the sound of a jet engine during a speed race.

I expect Israel will be forced to fight for its existence for the next 100 years because in my estimation of Islam, it would rather destroy the idea of progress then except its own obsolescence.

I liked 'Tim's post.

My heart breaks reading these posts. Some of these people are supposed to be my fellow Americans. It isn't just Israel that they hate - I think they would gladly put me and my family in a camp because I'm a Zionist (you know - a Jew).

I have no doubt I that I would be a guest at GrumpyOldMan's or Jillian's concentration camp. And that is why Israel is more necessary than ever - because me and my kid have no intention of going there.

And who murdered those six million Jews? Europeans.

As for the notion that a victim of oppression can never be a perpetrator, well, welcome to the all-purpose justification for violence used by all sides.

Now, if we could only decide who was/is the biggest victim of all. . . .

Scott R: Can you name any religion other than Judaism in which the central religious text justifies and advocates genocide? Religious texts that advocate vileness and oppression (e.g. Koran), don't count. Religions (e.g. Christianity) that have at times condoned genocide don't count. Accusing me of hate-speech does not count as a valid response.

Lancelot: "if their allies prevail they will be the first ones tortured and killed under Sharia law. Gays and lesbians, socialists, communists, radical feminists, greens and eco-warriors, peaceniks, the whole damn lot of them, people who could and do live in peace and freedom in Israel, are going to prison and the gallows if they are ever ruled by their beloved Hamas or its Islamic allies in Europe. "

Leave long-term prospects to SF writers. In the short-term, the problems with Islam in W. Europe are not conquest, but Balkanisation, revolving around the unwillingness of Muslim minorities to obey secular laws and operate within the civil sphere. I must be one of the least pro-Muslim people on the planet, but I'm sitting here scratching my head wondering how support for the racist hate-state Israel either forces or encourages Europe's Muslims to either assimilate or leave. If you wish to debate the approaches that could be taken with Europe's Muslims, I would be happy to join, but I can't quite see the relevance here.

As I've said before, I suspect that the irrational pro-Jewishness of US discourse has historical causes, linked to (i) the use of Old-Testament-based rhetoric for justifying the extermination/ dispossession of the Native Americans, and the Chosen-People-like view of US uniqueness; and (ii) the fact that the USA was on the side of right in WW2 (there is a Holocaust Museum in Washington; why is there no Slavery Museum?).

It's sad how freely the label "anti-Semite" is thrown around so freely. Just by reading their comments, I don't think anyone here would start loading Jews into concentration camps. Zionists, by the way, aren't all Jews. They can be anyone who supports the state of Israel. When you speak out against Zionism, like many people do when they speak out against Israel, it isn't slamming Judaism itself. It's disputing a political moving that has deep implications and consequences (for good AND for bad).

Calling someone an anti-Semite who is against Israeli policy is a good way of shutting down any further debate on the topic. That would be like calling anyone a terrorist who dare question authority within the USA. Granted, there are true anti-Semites out there, but how far can one stretch the justification of "Never again?"

You say that Israel bends over backwards to prevent Palestinian civilian casualties. Okay. But they certainly accept the fact that there -will- be some casualties. In order to protect Israel's people, how many Palestinians' lives should come to an acceptable end? If -some- casualties are allowable, what about every single Palestinian as a casualty? In order to insure safety, would anyone here agree with the necessary destruction of every Palestinian? Don't balk, either. You know what I'm describing is genocide but I'm just extrapolating from the killing that is happening right now. Where do you draw the line?

Ultimately, peace will never come until both sides want it. If Israel thinks it can wipe out an ideology by bombing it away, then they're mistaken. Each new (and innocent) death creates more converts from the survivors. Hamas will never succeed, either, and I believe their leadership is truly, certifiably insane -if- they even think they can succeed.

Perhaps some clarification is in order, if only to prevent the persecution complex that is evident among many of the lefties on this board: I call some of you anti-semitic not because you oppose Israel's actions in the current conflict (at least not in this thread); I call you anti-semitic because your response to Rod's relating of violence against individual Jews in various European countries is to say, essentially, "Yeah, that's a pity, but can you blame their victimizers? Look what Israel's doing in Palestine." It's not the anti-semitism of the Nazi leadership, but it is undeniably the anti-semitism of the millions of Good Germans who let the holocaust happen right under their noses.

(By comparison, I can hardly imagine Grumpy Old Man or Not Bono responding to violence against individual Muslim-Americans the same way, even in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. They would recognize immediately such an attitude as racist and despicable. Apparently, however, The Jews are fair game when it comes to inflicting punishment for collective racial guilt. Or, if not fair game, then at least violence against them, even in countries far from Israel, has to be put in the context of collective guilt for the sins of their race. That's anti-semitism, plain and simple.

The liberals’ obsession with civilians on this board is utterly phony. Their concern kicks in only when Israel or the US takes military action.

Hamas is worse than indifferent to civilian casualties. Their strategy is actually to maximize civilian casualties, by placing rocket launchers in schoolyards etc. These people are hideous. Yet the left reserve all their sound and fury for Israel. That really gives the game away, and I’m wondering how long will American Jews forebear the Jew-hatred of their left-wing confreres. Or are they so wedded to Marxism that it incapacitates their self-defense?

Or are they so wedded to Marxism that it incapacitates their self-defense?

You might want to Google "Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership" - an admirable organization and cause.

They might want to persuade Justices Ginsberg and Breyer.

Just go to the dang site before writing all American Jews off as being wedded to Marxism, okay?

Richard
I call some of you anti-semitic not because you oppose Israel's actions in the current conflict (at least not in this thread); I call you anti-semitic because your response to Rod's relating of violence against individual Jews in various European countries is to say, essentially, "Yeah, that's a pity, but can you blame their victimizers? Look what Israel's doing in Palestine."

I'd like to see a link to a single example of this, please.

First of all, Scott R, I just want you to know you are not alone. Many Christians stand with you. Hang in there dude. To Richard, Lancelot, cb, ArikW, and the others, Well Done!

Not Bono and Grumpy Old Man, you ARE anti-Semites. #@$% off. To Jillian and Daniel and the rest, who show small modicum of intelligence and integrity, let me ask you this: Where were you when the Janjaweed was raping and murdering in Darfur? Where were you when the massacres in Mumbai took place? Where were you when the butchering in central Africa occurred.? Are you aware that since the beginning of the Israeli incursion into Gaza, anywhere from 1500 to perhaps 10,000 men, women, and children have been killed in the Congo? They have been killed often not at long distance, by a bomb or bullet, but up-close, hacked to death by machetes.

You have some mighty selective compassion, as does the UN.

One last thing, to ask yourselves: how many Hindus or Sikhs or Buddhists or Wiccans or African Animists, etc. have the Jews killed today? Answer: Zero. How many Hindus or Sikhs or Buddhists or Wiccans or African Animists, etc. have the Jews killed in the last year? Answer: Zero. How many Hindus or Sikhs or Buddhists or Wiccans or African Animists, etc. have the Jews killed in the last century? Answer: Zero.

How does one convince people who are so blind they will not see?

Where were you when the Janjaweed was raping and murdering in Darfur? Where were you when the massacres in Mumbai took place? Where were you when the butchering in central Africa occurred.?

Advocating that shotguns and shells be air-dropped to the folks who were being raped, murdered, and massacred so that they could defend themselves.

My fondest (and most unrealistic) dream is for Israel and Palestine to live side by side peacefully with open borders and free trade. The problem is how does one teach a population who hasn't any distinct ethnic identity nor history of self-governance that they are a people and share responsibility for the actions of their elected officials?

The Palestinians have been treated like children by the International Community. They are fed and subsidized and have been so for 60 years. The UNRWA alone feeds 750,000 people.

It's about time that they grew up. Thus, Israel is doing the Palestinians a favor by bombing the hell out of them. The only hope for a thriving democracy in the Palestinian territories is the clear understanding by Palestinians that if their elected leaders do something stupid like allowing rockets to be launched into Israel from their territory, there will be serious repercussions.

Having never had a national identity, they have no idea how one is lost. Israel is also teaching them this lesson, but alas, not very well. We Jews throughout our history have faced the death of our culture many many times. Fortunately G-d has led us out of this trap each time, though our enemies have often not lived to tell the tale. Through these near misses we have learned to love peace and not to test G-d. This would be a valuable lesson to impart upon the Palestinians as well.

The best of all lessons would be complete and utter defeat of the Palestinians. Scraping themselves off of the dirt they would hopefully look towards a new paradigm for looking at their place in the world. They might even find they have a lot to learn from the Jews.

The Scots learned from the British and within a century Edinburgh became a center of scholarship and Scots led the world in Economics and Engineering.

The Japanese were defeated by America and within a generation turned their country into both a democracy and an industrial powerhouse.

The wrong lessons for them to learn would be those of the American South. After the surrender of the South, many of the unrepentant losers who were left slaveless and without economic prospects nourished their resentments and generations hence harbored anti-black views and even joined violent anti-black organizations like the KKK.

Hamas is little more than a Middle Eastern version of the KKK without the need to doctor up its sacred texts.

ArikW
The only hope for a thriving democracy in the Palestinian territories is the clear understanding by Palestinians that if their elected leaders do something stupid like allowing rockets to be launched into Israel from their territory, there will be serious repercussions.

The only hope for a thriving democracy in Israel is the clear understanding by Israelis that if their elected leaders do something stupid like allowing their government to invade Palestine and kill Hamas members during a ceasefire, there will be serious repercussions.

The only hope for a thriving democracy in the United States of America is the clear understanding by Americans that if their elected leaders do something stupid like allowing their government to fund the Israel military and placing troops in Muslim holy cities, there will be serious repercussions.

Those are all true, if by 'a clear understanding that there will be serious repercussions', you mean 'changing the viewpoint of the civilian population by using violence against them'.

Aka, terrorism.