Dhimmitude in Germany

Nice. Apparently the Duisburg police have no friggin' clue of what occurred in their nation's past, and how this will play with the international Jewish community. Not that they seem to care; at least they know the Jews won't start riots.

From the standpoint of protecting lives and property, I think this was prudent action on the part of the police. What should they have done? Open fire on the mob? Stand by and wait for the mob to burn down the building?

That is not the only criteria, Mike. There is also the maintenance of public order and the upholding of the law. In many democracies, like ours, a lot of blood was shed to have these kind of freedoms in the first place (in Germany's case, much of that blood was soldiers from other countries, but still...). Is all that in vain to save a few lives today? To allow a blood thirsty mob to rule the streets?

Of course, it's a false choice that the only option the police had was to shoot at the mob, they could use riot control measures like tear gas and water cannons, but it may well come to the point where that is not enough, and then the correct choice is, yes, shoot at the mob. Otherwise the mob will become the state.

Germany has a lot of experience with mobs attacking Jews - and with the police cooperating.

How much of the remaining Jewish presence in Germany will the police destroy to keep the anti-Semitic mob happy?

People wonder why Jews sometimes seem a bit paranoid and think they can trust no one - this video shows why.

Thus we see, in Mike's comment, the apotheosis of the inanity of modern education, of men without chests, of a mindset that is unwilling to draw the line and say, "This is evil, and it cannot stand." (Unless, of course, it involves the nefarious conduct of The Jews.) The mindset of the person who, when confronted with a choice between the mob and political freedom (freedom for which, as other commenters have noted, many have given their lives because it is indeed that precious), throws up his hands and says, "Well, what're you gonna do? It's not as if our liberties are worth fighting for - that's so . . . unironic. And besides, surely the mob's got grievances that deserve hearing. And what makes the rule of law and the protection of liberties better than rule by the mob anyway."

Steve and David have it right: When faced with this choice, a civilized society faced with this choice suppresses the mob. And if non-lethal methods of doing so don't work, they use lethal methods. Those that don't, deserve the chaos and totalitarianism that result.

Yes, Mike. As amazing as it might sound we should DEFEND our streets, cities, families from these people. When a riot breaks out over a flag we don't tear the flag down we do crowd control. Your solution is the very reason that these mobs are taking over! People are afraid. They back down. They don't want to step on any toes. Why? Everyone knows that you can say/do whatever you want and Christians and Jews will never resort to violent riots. However, the Muslims will so let's back down and give them what they want!

Here's a foretaste of what a world in which the police are too cowed (or simply too cowardly?) to face down an aggressive mob look like - a mob that has caused millions of dollars of damage in London alone in the past few days. Mike, you may want to live in a world like this, but I'd be willing to wager that most of my fellow citizens would rather live in a civilized state.

The video is tagged as offensive, but as far as I can tell it's only because of the aggressive language.

http://www.morgenpost.de/printarchiv/politik/article158502/Teile_Berlins_sind_verloren.html

The link above is to interview with the chairman of the Berlin section of the Police Union. It's in German, and it's too late for me tonight to translate it, but he talks of these problems and mentions the refusal of political leaders do anything about these problems, despite being warned for years. He says that parts of Berlin are lost, and are beyond saving. Patrol cars will not enter certain sectors of the city as they will be attacked.

"DHIMMAH!!!" - Südpark.

"Othello like you shouldn't be so jealous." - Dhimmi Moor.

"It takes (Irish) stew to tang, O'Reilly." - Dhinnity Moore.

"Having played one 'Derek' and play-lusted after another, and been a musician to boot, I give this thread a '10' - on a seven-note scale." - Dhuddley Moore.

"You're an absolute Saint to say that - as my word is as good as my Bond, I trust you will be neither shaken nor stirred to believe that." - Rhogger Moore.

"If you see BS on the evening news, I'd Rather you didn't show me: Showalter Cronkite instead." - Rhogger Mhudd

"I sentence you to to be taken from this place, and brought round to my place." - Judge Kilbraken (Terry Jones), aka "m'lud", "Court scene (charades)", Monty Python's Flying Circus, Episode Fifteen

Well, tmatt, I think it's pretty clear that if it's a Jewish publication, you decry the mob pressure to close the newsroom while contextualizing that pressure by dredging up every awful thing The Jews have done since 1945 before, of course, ultimately acquiescing in the demands of the mob because, you know, it would be an injustice to require the demonstrators to submit to rules of a civilized society, especially in defense of The Jews.

Yes, clearly the German policemen overreacted to the crowd's response to an Israeli flag.

Obviously, the only proper thing to do would have been to open fire with machine guns on the crowd until every last one of them was dead and then to have ground their bodies into fertilizer.

Anyone who disagrees with this is an appeasing, anti-Semetic Dhimmi.

John E - go back and responses #6 and #7, this time for comprehension.

Thanks.

Sorry - Your Name at 9:18 was me. Stupid Captcha.

Steve K., Richard, why do you support appeasement?

Any threat, even symbolic, to Israel must be met with a crushing response.

Your Name/Richard:

Regarding your scenario - how dare you compare Jews to homosexuals!

"we are living Kristallnacht again."

Assuming Kristallnacht was triggered by the killing of 1,000 people in a virtual internment camp by a powerful government funded by the U.S. that lead to a protest where the police overreacted.

Daniel,

So in that case, then an attack on individuals who (1) happen to be members of the ethnic group that forms the majority of said state, (2) live in an entirely different country, (3) likely have never been to Israel and almost certainly have themselves never committed any act of violence against said members of the so-called "virtual internment camp", and (4) are targeted only because of their shared ethnic identity is not a moral outrage? Remember, we're talking about the moral outrage of responding to perceived and real harms in one country by attacking wholly unrelated individuals in an entirely different country solely because of their ethnicity and religion. And you find it objectionable to condemn it unqualifiedly in the strongest moral language available? Seriously? (And this is qualitatively different from the moral reasoning the Nazis used to justify Kristallnacht how, excactly? They, too, had their list of grievances against the Jews, you know.)

If so, then you, my friend, are a moral imbecile. I only hope that neither I nor my children ever have to live in your moral universe.

Richard, there was no attack. The police overreacted and took down a flag. That's not an attack. But when any brown person who shows up at a demonstration is automatically an "Islamofascist barbarian[]" I can understand why you would be confused.

"Of course, in 1938 hardly anyone could have imagined where the policy of appeasing the Nazis would lead."

oh yeah?! by 1938 people had an idea, i think. i mean, the nazis absorbed austria and czecheslovakia by the end of that year. the rhineland? hello? they'd already begun rearmament. hello? the nazis had already begun official recriminations against german jews. hello?

"hardly anyone". right.

one more thing:

we need to stop invoking the nazis to describe muslim terrorism. they aren't the nazis, everybody. it gives them too much credit, and diminishes the efforts of those who defeated germany. i mean, the nazis! they were truly horrifying and had capabilities to cause problems FAR in excess of anything bin laden et al can cook up. i mean, the nazis! the wehrmacht! u-boats! panzers! waffen-ss units! V2 rockets! the luftwaffe! rommel! von kesselrig!

that's a heck of a lot more than the AQ crew has. and for anyone willing to say "well, not yet...", well, let me know when the AQ types or anyone like them: (1) establishes a culture of excellence in engineering and innovation in military armaments; (2) creates all the infrastructure to create and maintain (1); (3) develops a prussian-style military culture with emphasis on discipline and order; (4) develops the economy and infrastructure necessary to maintain a sustained military conflict; (5) creates sufficient central authority, national identity, and political will to maintain a sustained military conflict. and on.

i mean, seriously, everybody! the nazis would have eaten these AQ guys for breakfast. much, much scarier. not even close.

"And mobs running around attacking Jewish-related symbols in Germany is just mind boggling."

Again, which mobs and which attacks? I realize my German isn't very good (OK, non-existent) but what I see is a protest taking place over the killing of almost 1,000 residents of Gaza. I see the protesters walking down the street and seeing an Israeli flag and stopping and chanting. Sounds like old-fashioned free speech to me. Then I see the police rushing in and taking down the flag out of some fear--founded or unfounded--that the crowd was going to attack the building.

But there's no real mob, unless protestors are now automatically mobs. There's not attack, unless you count the police acting irrationally. But this isn't some protest over cartoons. This is a protest over the foreign policy of a country that has just killed almost 1,000 people in Gaza, many of them civilians. Are Muslims no longer allowed to be angry when internment camps are attacked and no one can flee? Are they no longer allowed to be angry when people in Gaza can't get food, medical attention? Are they automatically "Islamofacists barbarians" for protesting the killing of some 1,000 people?

I absolutely understand the concern over the police rushing into to yank down the flag of Israel, especially in a country where the Holocaust took place. But in 2009, is the Holocaust always the default defense when Israel (backed by the U.S.) kills 1,000 people in two weeks. When it chokes off food and medical aid. When it prevents Gazans from fleeing their internment camp to avoid the bombings and ground attack?

Given my eternal gratitude for the higher learning be-stowed away on me at Huxley College decades ago by Baravelli and Wagstaff, I'm tickled to see Horsefeathers, above, cut through an Ivoryan 99 44/100% of the comments on these threads. Some of us who hang around this bal masque here more for the food and music and the occasional gluteal thwack of the slapstick, and maybe a good smoke and furtive kiss in the cloak room with a fellow I-thought-it-was-just-me fugitive are nonetheless grateful for the solidarity afforded by one able to lend amplitude to what is otherwise, in its purely political aspect, all too often an exercise in highly selective outrage and moral preening.

I second what Forestwalker said above. At some point, Rod, you considered no longer using the term "dhimmitude," and I think it would be more than appropriate to drop that term, or at least, employ less frequent usage of it.

Of course, the German police ought to have been defending the rights of those flying the Israeli flag, because in my opinion that is part of the job of those in authority to preserve the freedom of expression of Germany's citizens, even when they are going against popular sentiment.

I support Israel's right to defend itself, but I'm not sure that this war in Gaza is helping Israel. I'm not sure I would have had the courage these young people had to fly the Israeli flag in the face of a passionate (and perhaps violent) anti-Israel demonstration.

Perhaps the German version of the ACLU needs to lend a hand.

I recommend checking out the back-and-forth discussion about Gaza between Beliefnet bloggers David Gibson and Rabbi Brad Hirschfield, and also the post about Eboo Patel's suggestions on the Progressive Revival blog.

To paraphrase Brimelow, the elites' faith in multiculturalism, open borders, and coerced diversity are Hitler's posthumous revenge on the West.

Part of me wishes that the Muslims would all go ahead and congregate in some favorite elite vacation spot - say, Paris - in sufficient numbers to take it over and enforce sharia over the whole city. No wine, fornication/contraceptives, homosexuality, pork, cigarettes (credit cards?) - all of it. Maybe once they're forced to connect the dots between their attitudes and their consequences, they'll become a little more provincial.