Monks & Catholic agrarianism in these times

Just don't drink their Kool-Aid

Rod, you should really consider re-entering the RCC. Relations with the Orthodox have improved on a significant scale, and liturgical/sexual scandals are very much on their way to being healed.

Rod, I think it would be wonderful if you could enter an agrarian community. Good for you. But before you advocate this lifestyle for the whole of humanity, how about raising every single ounce of food your family eats for one year, just to see what is really involved. I've done it. You haven't. It is an enormous amount of physical work, and the old adage about God works in mysterious ways would come very alive to you.

I am glad to hear someone quoting G.K. Chesterton. I am just beginning to discover his writings and what a treasure trove. He converted to Catholicism late in life.

Thanks Rod. This post is chock-full of useful information!

Thank you for posting this!

John Medaille,

I would agree it's an oversimplification -- but more often than not, Waldrop lands on the left side of political alliances in state and local politics in Oklahoma -- a state that was run, until recently, by a corrupt Democratic political machine.

And I was asking Rod a serious question about distributism, which I find to be an intriguing "third way."

I've seen Bob in a local paper; the guy talks about living simply and cutting out excess and looks like he should lose at least 100 pounds. Cut the blubber from him and you'd be able to feed a town in El Salvador for a week!
Sorry, but I can't take seriously any solutions that say "America is a terrible empire" and then, in the next breath "There needs to be more people living here, especially illegal aliens". The idea that we have to cut down on using resources while outlawing abortion and eliminating the right to die for terminally ill people is also, to say the least, short-sighted and cruel. "Breed and God will feed" is about as stupid an idea as is possible to imagine.

"I would agree it's an oversimplification -- but more often than not, Waldrop lands on the left side of political alliances in state and local politics in Oklahoma -- a state that was run, until recently, by a corrupt Democratic political machine."

This is further oversimplication. There is no left to speak of in Oklahoma. Oklahomans vote for democrats on a local level because they don't associate them with the national democratic party.

Of course all of the rhetoric about conservative values never stops Oklahoma from asking for money from the federal government. I'm sure they already have their hands out after yesterday's tornados.

Clear Creek is an amazing place and I supported it when I was a Roman Catholic. It's very unfortunate that there isn't a non-trad Clear Creek. I suspect that a non-trad Clear Creek wouldn't be possible because mainstream Catholicism is too 'partisan.' Liberals wouldn't be interested and conservatives are too caught up in in being culture war conservatives. I can only imagine how Waldrop's address would be received by conservative Catholics.

But unfortunately I think Clear Creek is doomed because traditional Roman Catholicism needed to be reformed. Unfortunately reforming it undermined its authority which is why the mainstream RCC is so much trouble. I was on the periphery of trad circles for a few years and it's not pretty. It's appealing to people. The world is messed up and these people understand that. And the solution very well could be to withdraw from mainstream society. However, tradism, at least in my experience, can become so narrow, e.g. getting caught up in debates about whether women can wear pants or speculation about the third secret of Fatima.

Clear Creek is somewhat of an oasis amongst traditional Catholicism which is probably largely due to their bishop. Because Bishop Slattery has been so welcoming of the FSSP and the monastery, it was hard for the hard-core trads to get a much influence. However, I'm unsure about the community that has built up around Clear Creek. It's very isolated so it could go off the deep end. I left Oklahoma about 9 years ago so I don't know how things have changed at the monastery.

Forgive the triumphantism but one of the great things about Orthodoxy is that you can be traditional and modern at the same time.

about as stupid an idea as is possible to imagine

I don't know. You're idea to write that unkind and unintelligible post might be more stupid.

"Is Mr. Evans inaccurate? Mr. Waldrop is not 100 pounds overweight? He does not support illegal immigrants? He favors legal abortion?"

First, why is his weight relevant to this discussion? Second, what does it mean to "support illegal immigrants?" The Catholics bishops of Oklahoma have been very courageous in their opposition to Oklahoma's laws relating to illegal immigration. If he "supports illegal immigrants" like his bishop does then that makes him a good Catholic so I'm unsure about what that has to do with left or right. Third, no one has written anything on this thread about his views on abortion. I assume since he is employed by the Catholic Workers that he is opposed to abortion. I think you might have assumed that he is pro-choice because someone said he is from the "left."

Mr. Evans seems to be claiming that because I am overweight, anything that I have to say on "using less" is of no value.

On one hand, I could reply, "Never trust a skinny president of a food coop." See also -- "He that is of a proud heart stirs up strife: but he that puts his trust in the LORD shall be made fat." Prov 28:25, KJV.

On the other hand, there is considerably less of me these days than there was five years ago before we started the Oklahoma Food Cooperative and I started getting most of my household's food from local farmers and our own gardens. About 50 pounds less. I am losing about a pound a month, and have kept that up for four years or so. I suppose he might reply, "You should go faster", but my doctor is satisfied with my progress. As he said to me, "Most people lose too much weight too fast, then they regain the weight." I have always recommended that people take moderate, incremental steps to change their lives, and I think it is important that I take my own advice. I attribute the slow but steady weight loss to my abandonment of the mystery meat department at supermarkets for all grass fed beef and bison from free-ranging herds, cooking most meals from basic ingredients rather than relying on mixes and processed supermarket foods, and increasing my activity (mostly by gardening). An additional bonus is that my cholesterol has declined 80 points and is about where my doc wants it to be, and this has been accomplished without drugs.

And so it comes to pass that doing the right thing for the environment turns out to be the right thing for me and my own personal health.

Mr. Evans also accuses me of being a leftist. Elsewhere I am often accused of being a conservative. I think the left-right schtick has about lost its utility in modern political discourse, it is rarely more than a stick to beat people with. The terms have so little meaning anymore. . . we had a "conservative" Republican president and a "conservative" Republican Congress and still managed to break the bank. Senator Coburn of Oklahoma is fond of straining at the gnats of this or that small boondoggle program, while swallowing the entire camel of the TARP bailout and other give-aways to the parasites, fools, and thugs on Wall Street and the big bank system.

He is right, however, about me being unapologetically pro-life.

And yes, I defend the rights of people who live here to work, which is a fundamental human right. I am not in the business, however, of "encouraging" people to come here. The world economy, the business methods of corporations, and corrupt governments do a pretty good job of that without my assistance. I once spoke with some Hispanics that were working on a roof. I asked them how they came to be here doing this. They were all from the same village in Mexico. They used to be farmers. But one day, the Mexican government showed up and said that their land now belonged to a US corporation that was going to use it to grow veggies to export to the US market. Like many third world peasants, they didn't have what we would call a clear title to their land, even though they had been on that land for generations. So landless and without prospects, they headed north. The Bible is very clear, as is the Catechism of the Catholic Church, about our obligations to foreigners. Indeed, the 25th chapter of the Gospel of Matthew suggests that those who treat foreigners with injustice will be condemned to hell.

When I go to confession, I always confess to using more than my share of the world's resources. Priests always ignore that, there never offer counsel on that sin. I always figure that they wish that I would confess to something more "normal" like fornication or adultery, about which they might have something to say, but oh well, my sins are my sins.

I am certainly not finished yet, and have never implied that I am. I do try to practice what I preach, and eventually, if I practice enough, I hope to become good at it.

Congratulations on losing weight and lowering your cholesterol. Best of luck as you continue to improve in health.
What exactly are the rights of 'those who are here to work'? Supposing, as I do, you don't share in Mr. Waldrop's catholic faith? Which one of us gets to decide which is a right and which isn't? You asssume that we both either read the Bible or come to the same interpretation of it. To make major decisions based on what is seriously flawed information is a bad idea.
"Pro-Life" can also mean just about anything. You don't say why a zygote is a human being with full rights and why Terry Schiavo would have been better off if she'd been left to linger on more dead than alive. Is this a fate you would chose for your wife? I know that both my wife and I have told each other, in writing, in front of a lawyer, that we do not want to have to endure pointless agony simply because our hearts haven't stopped. Should you and those in your family decide to live like this, that is your decision. But please keep your dogmas away from my hospital room.
I don't need to be terrified with visions of endless fire. If you want me to do something, personal or political, give me reasons, don't cite chapter and verse. With over one-sixth of the US population agnostic/humanist (and it's the fastest growing segment, by the way)this will certainly end up counter-productive sooner rather than later.
Thank you for your extensive and charitable response. Congratulations on your normal cholesterol.

Joshua, check back and see that 1. I congratulated him on losing weight and 2. lowering his cholesterol.
As to the rest of it, please point out the insults.
I've moved on from weight now that I've been given evidence to believe otherwise.
What about my other points?

I haven't been here in awhile. But I do see the same old jackasses as when I left.

God bless Bob Waldrop; he's the real deal. God bless the monks at Clear Creek too. They're not rad-trads (curse the stupid term), they're right down the center of the Church which is where they need to be.