The problem of pornography

Looks like my post describing the weekly bacchanalia at my local Episcopal church was held up for review. Maybe it qualifies as porn . . . .

Rod, what exactly do you mean by "vile late-Roman culture". As a historian, particularly one with interest in ancient Rome, I would like to hear more about this characterization.

Without knowing more, it is difficult to develop an opinion on it, but icertianly think there hasbeen no better time to live in history than today, that we are blessed in so many ways. Life is good. And art and culture are flourishing, even if the market assures that many base forms of such are prevalent and readily available.

To my mind, the danger in porn is its despiritualization and de-emotionalization of the sex act, reducing it to a purely physical function and promoting promiscuity. On the other hand, I do think there are some cases where it does some good and assists the lonely and alone with personal sexual fulfillment.

Chasity makes the gift of self possible.

Because someone has to post it:

Smut
Tom Lehrer

I do have a cause though. It is obscenity. I'm for it. Unfortunately the civil liberties types who are fighting this issue have to fight it owing to the nature of the laws as a matter of freedom of speech and stifling of free expression and so on but we know what's really involved: dirty books are fun. That's all there is to it. But you can't get up in a court and say that I suppose. It's simply a matter of freedom of pleasure, a right which is not guaranteed by the Constitution unfortunately. Anyway, since people seem to be marching for their causes these days I have here a march for mine. It's called...

Smut!
Give me smut and nothing but!
A dirty novel I can't shut,
If it's uncut,
and unsubt- le.

I've never quibbled
If it was ribald,
I would devour where others merely nibbled.
As the judge remarked the day that he
acquitted my Aunt Hortense,
"To be smut
It must be ut-
Terly without redeeming social importance."

Por-
Nographic pictures I adore.
Indecent magazines galore,
I like them more
If they're hard core.

(Bring on the obscene movies, murals, postcards, neckties,
samplers, stained-glass windows, tattoos, anything!
More, more, I'm still not satisfied!)

Stories of tortures
Used by debauchers,
Lurid, licentious, and vile,
Make me smile.
Novels that pander
To my taste for candor
Give me a pleasure sublime.
(Let's face it, I love slime.)

All books can be indecent books
Though recent books are bolder,
For filth (I'm glad to say) is in
the mind of the beholder.
When correctly viewed,
Everything is lewd.
(I could tell you things about Peter Pan,
And the Wizard of Oz, there's a dirty old man!)

I thrill
To any book like Fanny Hill,
And I suppose I always will,
If it is swill
And really fil
thy.

Who needs a hobby like tennis or philately?
I've got a hobby: rereading Lady Chatterley.
But now they're trying to take it all
away from us unless
We take a stand, and hand in hand
we fight for freedom of the press.
In other words,

Smut! (I love it)
Ah, the adventures of a slut.
Oh, I'm a market they can't glut,
I don't know what
Compares with smut.

Hip hip hooray!
Let's hear it for the Supreme Court!
Don't let them take it away!

Put another way, can anybody imagine that using pornography makes you a better or more emotionally healthy person?

You can ask the same question about drinking alcohol, smoking cigarettes, and eating fatty foods. The answer for all of them is, no, but in very small amounts, none of them do permanent harm and may enhance a sensual experience.

Whether or not enhancing sensual experiences is something that must be avoided at all costs is another question entirely.

No one can be certain why a Ted Bundy does what he does and, no disrespect toward Dr. Dobson, but Ted could have been telling him what he wanted to hear.

There's only one solution really, and that is to teach our daughters how to use guns safely and to inculcate in them a love of carrying a small revolver in their purse at all times. A revolver in every woman's purse - the only guarantor of her personal safety!

Predators like Ted Bundy respect only force.

While porn itself may not make a person better (whatever in hell that may mean) or more emotionally healthy, I think a good case can be made that people who enjoy porn are probably more emotionally healthy than those who get upset about people who enjoy porn. Certainly no one wants to be around someone whose life consists of subsiting on prunes and pickle juice and has nothing better to do than worry about what other people are doing.

I'd like to re-emphasize (as Rod did in his piece) that we need to take the purported statements of Bundy and Goben with a pillar of salt. Bundy in particular is well known to have been a very intelligent and manipulative individual who should be assumed to be telling Dobson what he wanted to hear.

That being said, from a gay perspective (and note that this applies to men; I'm not really qualified to speak to this phenomenon as far as lesbians are concerned), my impression is that middle aged and older men (say 40+) will use it in part to combat loneliness. People stuck in small towns in particular often feel very isolated (obviously many religious communities aren't exactly very welcoming, and the gay presence in small towns is generally small to nonexistent) and pornography represents one outlet, however tenuous the connection may be.

Having said that, I think John E.'s comparison with alcohol, cigarettes and fatty food is pretty apt. We all have our pet vices. I've generally viewed attempts to ban "obscenity" in the same light as attempts to ban alcohol: doomed to failure and motivated by a group of busybodies and meddlers on the one hand and people who can't control their guilty impulses and so project their consciences onto the community on the other.

Mark Driscoll from Porn Again Christian:

"In 1 Corinthians 10:8, Paul says, “We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day.” Speaking of God’s people in Exodus, Paul warns us that throughout history God was so sickened by sexual sin that he killed perverted multitudes in the desert, as well as in places like Sodom and Gomorrah. Yes, God does whack some people. Sometimes it’s all at once, and sometimes it’s a bit at a time, say with a sexually transmitted disease. Worse still, some victims of sexual sin also experience sickness, like my buddy who gave his wife herpes, and even death, like dudes who give their wives AIDS. However you go out, do you really wanna be the guy with a computer mouse in one hand scratching his itchy junk with his other hand standing before Jesus and scrambling to explain himself?

(http://relit.org/porn_again_christian/)

I just warped in here from 1952, and I have to agree with you Rod.

I'd take anything a serial killer or rapist says with a pound of salt. Pornography does not, in and of itself, cause people to lose their senses and commit crimes; that personality is already resident. This is the typical correlative error -- he does X, so X must contribute/cause said behavior. In that case air is contributory to crime, is the ultimate gateway drug, and cause people to overeat.

Pornography is widespread in the culture, yet there's been no corresponding bump in the crimes you are relating them to. while it might be offensive, and might act as a catalyst for people who are susceptible to violent offenses, it is not a predictor of the same.

Yes, but -

rapes are declining, dramatically, despite the prevelance of porn on the internet, easy and free.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/18/AR2006061800610.html

So, cause and effect?

I suggest taking a look at Roger Scruton who's written eloquently on "sexual desire" including a devastating critique of pornography.
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/se0121.html
http://www.artinfluence.com/bluntedge/PornandCorn.html

It should be said that Roger Scruton writes not as a Christian theologian but as a philosopher.

Patrick Still had an essay ("Porn and the Sacred Heart") on Godspy a few years ago about his addiction to pornography: it was extremely good, but I can't seem to find it.

This is an area of common ground for conservatives and progressives. Feminists have long deplored the impact of porn on how women are objectified and commodified. This is an opportunity not just for you, but also your wife, to talk to your sons about what porn says about themselves, but also about the women in their lives. It is degrading to women and girls and boys need to understand why.

Yup, we all need our porn, and fresh stashes of it, too because, as said above "everyone" uses it. And it does so much good. But remember, we need ever-younger and always-fresh girls so, come on, offer up your daughters! They can put it on their college resumes as doing community service. Or being entrepreneurial, smart industrial girls that you raised. And be quick about it because once they hit 30, it's all over and we look for a new crop to ingest and spit out.

Actually, don't studies demonstrate the opposite? That where pornography is more common, sexual attacks against women are less frequent? Perhaps it works as a safety value to release sexual need?

That's my experience anyway. When I see porn, it does excite me...and if I continue to view it, I get more and more and more excited until suddenly...I'm just not that interested anymore.

Then I go watch TV or have a beer or something.

If there's any correlation between pornography and rape, it's an inverse one - as pornography has become more prevalent, the rates of rape and sexual assault have declined:

The rise of the Internet offers a gigantic natural experiment. Better yet, because Internet usage caught on at different times in different states, it offers 50 natural experiments. The bottom line on these experiments is, "More Net access, less rape." A 10 percent increase in Net access yields about a 7.3 percent decrease in reported rapes. States that adopted the Internet quickly saw the biggest declines. And, according to Clemson professor Todd Kendall, the effects remain even after you control for all of the obvious confounding variables, such as alcohol consumption, police presence, poverty and unemployment rates, population density, and so forth.

http://www.slate.com/id/2152487/

Davis,

Feminist opposition to porn has waned significantly since the 1980's when Catherine MacKinnon was out passing unconstitutional laws banning porn in Minneapolis and Indianapolis. Her flavor of feminism has lost favor among younger generations of progressive folks, who prefer a more "sex positive" approach to feminism.

If every man waited until his wedding day to see a real naked female, or at least refrained from having an endless stream of enhanced and fantasy girls permanently burned into his memories, then when his beloved undressed for him for the first time, then that would be his idea of perfection of the female form. That's the way it was supposed to be.

This is a hack piece that attempts to rehash old arguments long ago disproven.

http://www.impactlab.com/2008/01/06/internet-porn-shown-to-decrease-incidence-of-rape/

Wonder how many seconds it will take until Rod deletes this post?

If porn is okay, then it is okay for your daughter to perform for it.

Davis,

You do not see young feminists or progressives getting nearly as worked up over pornography as older generations of feminists did. You certainly do not see any such young feminists or progressives dying to join forces with social conservatives (as MacKinnon, et al did in the 1980's) to ban or otherwise fight against pornography.

The people who develop an unhealthy obsession with porn, are, to a man, emotionally and sexually stunted. That is the fault of Christianity, not the porn itself. Those of us who have freed themselves from those pathological strictures don't get hung up on porn because we realize that the real thing is much more interesting. (and when you're not creepy and repressed, women will give you the real thing!)

I'm not sure that's completely true. While there is clearly a segment of feminists who advocate a "sex positive" approach and may view porn as empowering, you'd be hardpressed to show that feminists generally think the pornificiation of America is good for women.

A single anecdotal data point, my bisexual, feminist wife enjoys looking at pictures of naked women too.

The issue of pornography is a major split among feminists.

Sigh. I hope we aren’t going into another round of 4th and 5th century bashing. For those who missed it earlier, Our Working Boy disapproves of the later Roman Empire. He also disapproves of the devoutly Christian Visigoths, who would have shared his opinion of Rome in those days.

All I’m going to say this time is that while I share Rod’s respect for Benedict of Nursia, I have even higher respect for Jerome, Ambrose, and, above all, Augustine: men who chose to be actively engaged with “late-Roman culture.”

Stop going to and/or promoting and/or laughing at Sasha Baron Cohen movies, or any other movie or entertainer who indulges in or promotes anything less than fervent devotion to the Lord and the Theotokos. Stop laughing at and/or writing about politicians and other persons' sexual foibles and failings.

Porn has consumed my entire 20s and has been a cause AND a cover for many relational issues. Blaming anything else (society, religion) is emotionally infantile and is a mark of someone in denial.

The issue is not porn, per se. Porn is a symptom of a general malaise concerning sexuality, and it is ubiquitous in our lives.

Item: consider Zach's plaint about the mode of dress of some of his church members. That is another symptom, and lumping it under "porn" is a mistake. (And Zach, I disagree with your semantics but I agree with your points.)

Item: sexual attraction is the primary motivation... period. The clothes we buy, the accessories to our appearance like makeup and jewelry, the shape of our bodies and even the language choices we make. We are ruled by product marketing, and marketing is ruled by sex.

Item: We have blurred the lines between sexuality and that it is a subset of "pleasure". See also the marketing point, it being the key.

I submit to the parents out there that "protecting the children from porn" is the best way to fail. Preparing them to deal with it -- being much more difficult and time-consuming -- gives them skills on which they can rely their entire lives. One of the strongest attributes of things that can hurt us is novelty. I'm not talking about teaching 8-year-olds about sex; I am talking about teaching 14-year-olds how to distinguish between sexual impulse and expressions of affection and love.

Just about everything is bad for some people. The danger of porn would seem to be that it often involves aggression that would never be tolerated in any other setting. If the turn on becomes more about the aggression than the sex and that carries over to the way people behave overall it presents a danger to society.

Our current sexual system, and the sexual system that prevails in most universities and large cities, is soft polygamy. That is, a relatively small proportion of highly attractive men monopolise a relatively large proportion of females. It is not uncommon for these men to rack up hundreds of conquests over the years, and for the women to agree to being one of many - indeed women prefer it to having the full attentions of an unattractive beta man. We are returning to an African style mating system where a small number of 'Big Men' hog all the women. Needless to say, this decision by women to ignore them in favour of the alphas leaves a large number of men without a sexual outlet, and porn has risen to fill the gap. This is not a sickness. It is not an addiction. It results from being exposed to a highly sexualized culture, but one where sex is usually not forthcoming from females unless your attractiveness is at a certain level - and no Rod, that attractiveness does not depend on being 'nice' and 'chivalrous' to women, indeed it is frequently the opposite.

The">http://www.thornwalker.com/ditch/devlin_shalit.htm>The Female Sexual Revolution and its limitations
Rotating">http://www.argumentations.com/Argumentations/StoryDetail_7731.aspx>Rotating Polyandry and its enforcers

It looks like Ted Bundy was telling Dobson what he thought Dobson would want to hear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy). By all other accounts, including crime writer Ann Rule's (who knew Bundy personally), Ted Bundy's childhood was not that great.

That said, is the problem pornography or is it people's addiction to it, like other addictions (alcohol, crystal meth, tobacco)?

FWIW, I have an in-law who's been in hotel management for decades. S/he says that whenever there's a Christian convention or conference staying in the hotel, the in-room porn movie rentals go way up. Maybe the problem is also the way Christians (in the US) handle sex and sexuality?

In Rod's world, men can't have porn, even if it reduces sexual assaults. Just like women shouldn't have birth control, even if it reduces abortion.

It looks like Ted Bundy was telling Dobson what he thought Dobson would want to hear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy). By all other accounts, including crime writer Ann Rule's (who knew Bundy personally), Ted Bundy's childhood was not that great.

That said, is the problem pornography or is it people's addiction to it, like other addictions (alcohol, crystal meth, tobacco)?

FWIW, I have an in-law who's been in hotel management for decades. S/he says that whenever there's a Christian convention or conference staying in the hotel, the in-room porn movie rentals go way up. Maybe the problem is also the way Christians (in the US) handle sex and sexuality?

I want to strongly echo Joshua Knox's comments about the theme of decline but would say that, if one really wanted to push the Roman parallels with current American society (an exercise that is very artificial), the most apt parallel is the Roman republic in the later part of the 2d century BC, after the Third Punic War.

There were so many rises and declines of Roman societies, implied references to one as if it were THE one are a sign of someone who's not well read in Roman history.

Porn has taken a toll on my marriage, my work and my relationship with my kids. Only with some serious counseling and the threat of losing my wife and kids have I been able to put a dent into the problem.

The problem with porn is that it de-sensitizes you and you crave more and more vile images to satisfy your urges. My counselor works with convicted rapists at our state and county jails and all of them said that the road to rape started with porn. I am in a sexual addiction support group and the common thread is that almost all of us started looking at clothing catalogs or Playboys at an early age and it just got worse from there. Luckily I got help before I did something illegal but half the guys in my group did not realize that they had a problem until they were sitting in the back seat of a police car.

Just imagine that someone's sister, daughter or mother is in every picture or video. Much of the porn is made with kidnapped or exploited women. If you are a Christian and belief that we are all made in God's image, then seeing how these women are treated should break your heart.

Porn addiction is a really serious issue in the church. It's easier for many men to admit that they use drugs or alcohol than it is to admit to using porn. Don't know the exact statistic, but saw somewhere that 1/3 of all men that actively go to church(including pastors) have viewed some sort of porn in the last 30 days.

John E. - I would submit (based upon my wife's experience and other close female friends) that a woman is not truly a "willing partner" when she is serving as an object of a man's fantasy, at least not in the truest sense. Rather, it seems to me (again, based on the wisdom of female peers) that women are more willing to serve as objects, however misguided, because they desire to be loved and are willing to allow men to treat them this way in the hope that it will bring about sincere love.

Is it better to be willingly degraded than violently abused? Sure. But that doesn't mean that we should accept the former.

Apologies for the previous double posting.

Add my complaint about BeliefNet's lousy comment boxes to the legion of prior complaints.

Remember: Ceiling cat is still watching you masturbate.

I managae an adult bookstore. I see all kinds and I can assure you almost every walk of life is represented in my customers. After 10 years of selling/renting this stuff I have a few observations.

All other things being equal, one mans sex drive is as strong as the next. That being the case a persons sexual fantasies and desires seem to be shaped by the restrictions or lack there-of that their niche of society places on them. Example, those with 'low moral standads' actually tend to watch the more boring, middle of the road porn, while 'pillars of the community' types seem to go for the more extreme stuff.

Because of the above my best customers, pound for pound, are preachers, teachers, cops and the upper half of the managment tree. I cant begin to count all of the gay porn Ive sold to the local preacher, a man who pounds the pulpit every Sunday denouncing the sin of homosexuality. I have so many police and corrections officers as customers its a wonder there is any crime in this neighborhood. Hell, Ive even sold sex toys to Buhddist monks sworn to celebicy.

Another observation; There are drunks but not everyone that has a drink is a one. There are those that are addicted to porn but,like beer drinkers, they are a relatively small percentage. It would be silly to outlaw booze to save the drunks. Same applies to porn.

Women have their own version of porn. Try picking up one of your wives big, thick romance novels. You will often find as much graffic and even kinky sex in those pages as you'll find in a porn movie. The main difference is emotional context. Men just need the visual stimulus. Women often need some sort of emotional framework for sex to take place in, thus the 'romance' novel.

I could go on and on.

I no longer 'like' porn. After all of this time it bores me. Im one of the few people that actually DO read Playboy for the stories just because Im tired of the images. A living, breathing woman is still incredibly attractive, but the printed, video version? Blah.

The stuff is here and its not going away. Men are hard-wired to be aroused by the visual image of a naked women engaged in sex. No, kids shouldnt be allowed to see it, but at some point they will. There is no amount of worried hand wringing that will change human biology or the marketplace it spawned.

Major Wootton, 12:38. “If porn is okay, then it is okay for your daughter to perform it.”
What a load of crap. You really have no concept of a parent wanting X for their kids and the kids choose Y? I’d be sad if I raised kids that wanted nothing more than to flip burgers at McDonalds all day long. They can do better than that. Does it make flipping burgers an unholy job? Of course not.

Marian, 12:38. “I'm glad I don't have small children at home. I don't know whether it would be worse to have to explain this stuff to them, or to find out they already knew about it.”
And that’s pretty telling right there. While I can certainly agree that I am beyond sick of seeing the commercials, to actually be miffed you might have to explain to your kids that not every adult male can have an erection and they need medication to help them speaks volumes about how you would teach your kids about sex. “Sex is dirty, only have it when you’re married. You’re on your own for info.” Is it difficult to talk about? Duh. Want an easy job? Don’t pick being a parent.

Thomas Tucker, 12:39. “The finest example of why our culture is in such bad shape is Cosimano's comment "whatever that means" in reference to making people better.”
Got that right. If everyone would just buck up and get on board with the right brand of Christianity, all would be well. Or is it the right brand of Islam? Communism? I forget… I’m sure if we all just got behind what you specifically believe, all would be right with the world.

TJ, 12:40. “I don't see why people have such a hard time understanding that the objectification of women on a screen is going to lead, however incrementally, to objectification of women in real life. Porn is very, very dangerous, if not always in the most tangible ways.”
I don’t see why people have such a hard time understanding that the subservience of humanity to religion is going to lead, however incrementally, to the repression of the human spirit at the hands of an elite few who claim to speak for god. Religion is very, very dangerous, if not always in the most tangible ways.

Ever seen X-Men 3. At the start of the movie young Warren has been in the bathroom for over an hour, it's only when dad hears all the clattering of files & saws that he freaks.

At 13 or 14 you're going to start getting interested in what women are about. If you want to shape you son's appreciation for what sexuality is about, try talking to him. Don't pretend you don't see his Playboys or whatever, and tell him why you think it has a negative value.

Much more effective than banning vibrators so someone else's porn.

I think we need talk about sex, anything about sex, in religious schools. I went to Catholic boys' school, and one of the things that many of the alums regretted was that there was NO sexual education. Okay, well maybe the health teacher got in about five minutes. Pretty much "don't do _it_ til you're married." I am a religious Catholic, and I try to stay chaste. In a perfect world yeah, it'd be wonderful if everyone waited til marriage, did not look at porn, used natural family planning, and had a robust marriage with lots of children. But no one's going to get to that point without guidance and some frank talk about sexuality. And we were left completely in the dark. We as Catholics are bound to obey the Church's teachings, but we have to be taught first!

Students would brag about how much porn they had on their computer, talked about masturbation openly and frequently, students were 'out' (with varying degrees of 'activity', though surprisingly the student body was very tolerant of gay people as individuals), and plenty were well versed on how to use condoms. We had to be our own sex ed, and it's not healthy for 17 year olds to figure this stuff out on their own. The faculty of my school failed us by not talking honestly about what teenage boys are thinking and doing. So instead of getting us to think about chastity, nothing was said at all and we had to navigate our burgeoning sexuality ourselves.

Connie Connie in Wisconsin (and others who share the same view):

Can you point us to the academic evidence that increased availability of birth control leads to fewer abortions?

On this very topic, ene of Britain's leading pro-choice activists has written that

"...arguments for increased access to contraception...are built on the assumption that these developments will bring down the abortion rate. The anti-choice movement counter that *this does not seem to be the case in practice. Arguably they are right*. Access to effective contraception creates an expectation that women can control their fertility...Given that expectation, women may be less willing to compromise their plans for the future...In days when sex was expected to carry the risk of pregnancy, an unwanted child was a chance a woman took. Today, we expect sex to be free from that risk and unplanned maternity is not a price we are prepared to pay."

A couple of wives here have complained that porn has ruined their marriages, because their husbands want them to roleplay things porn actresses do.

So why don't you do it? Because it would make you feel uncomfortable?

So what?

My wife won't do those things either. She is uptight, self-absorbed, and spoiled rotten. I would give my life for her and for our kids, but she won't do a 15-minute roleplay with me. Just her and me. In the privacy of our bedroom. No whips and chains or anything like that: just verbal (and lingerie).

Know what? She won't do them. But for $300 an hour, I can get a woman who will. Cheerfully. Skillfully.

So enjoy being self-righteous.

I cannot understand this discussion. The rampant libertinism is disgusting.

My idea of porn is Manet's "Déjeuner sur l'herbe." But it gets even more sickening. Botticelli's "Birth of Venus" is a defilement of women. And Tiziano! "Rape of Europa" is a depiction of the most sordid character.

And talk about vile! Courbet's "Le Sommeil" is unspeakabe, in fact it is downright ineffable.

But just to show you I am not a prude, I rather like his "Origine du monde." The model looks a bit like my first wife and I still rather fancy her.

I agree that there are many fallacious points saying "he does X, so X must contribute/cause said behavior"

However, this essay does not argue that. The crux of his point is that Pornography does nothing good for society. Try to prove it does--I doubt you'll find any arguments that satisfy a decent human being.

There are plenty of statistics that do indeed show a dramatic increase in divorce, infidelity, illigitamacy, and the other similar metrics often used in evaluating the health of families in America. There are many villains that come from good families, as demonstrated by these awful cases. But a great majority of convicts come from broken homes. Pornography is one of the greatest home wreckers. Broken families eventually lead to broken economies and loss of freedom.

Pornography is the great scorge on society.

What's the matter with admiring the form that God (some would say supposedly) created? You use your eyes, elbows, thumbs, metatarsals every day with regularity, why not the other tools in the box that God so grandly gave you? Was He just trying to torment us by giving us toys we aren't supposed to play with? Complex guy, that God.....

Rape, murder and violent crime ARE down. I live in Los Angeles and comparing life here now as compared to the 80's and 90's is night and day. It is literally unbelievable how much safer it is. Bad parts of town that any sane persons would have avoided are being yuppified and being populated by trendy restaurants and nightclubs. The good parts of town are as safe as anywhere in the US.

Is it possible that between the Freakonomics theory of unwanted children being aborted on one hand and the violently and sexually inclined using video games and porn to indulge their fancies on the other, that the gruesome statistics of the past will keep spiraling downward?

It IS the best time to be alive, at least for Americans (who haven't lost their jobs or homes). Information, material goods and pleasures that were available to only a select few Mandarins in the past are now accessible to all. I'm a self taught carpenter / plumber / electrician, and with all the self help DIY books and internet info I can keep educating myself. Business has never been better. RIght now I'm learning welding. Anyone could do this if they were so inclined. The information is out there for everybody, no longer locked away. If this is Late Rome, give me more!

Having spent a few years driving a taxi in Austin, I'd say that most strippers I encountered were lower rung intellects happy to be having the time of their life. But there were a few that struck me as intelligent who were using the good money they were making to put themselves debt free through college. Good for them. I know a few friends and acquaintances here in LA involved in the Adult Industry, none of them strike me as victims. Some have moved on to families and children, believe it or not.

Out of all the things that could sink this country now, porn ain't it.

from kinsey to the discredited meade the goal to sexualize children as in hungaries bela khun government as a means to eradicate culture, is a liberal goal (whether the useful idiots know it or not)

Porn per se is not the nub of the malaise Franklin Evans describes above, nicely. The mainstreaming of porn is.

You can't stop boys from experimenting with fire, and a few from becoming pyromaniacs, but you can make it difficult for boys to get their hands on lighters and matches. Once this is what society did with porn. Now the "lighters and matches" lie strewn all over the place, jillions of them, indoors and out, all within easy reach of every man, woman and child. Few of the grownups can even muster a half-interested shrug, must less a stern warning. The mainstreaming of porn.

I always feel sorry for men who get addicted to pornography (an occasional look is pretty much guaranteed for most--like occasional overeating), but I do wonder sometimes if it ever crosses their minds that the women in those pictures don't really look or act like that, and that (at least deep down) they'd rather be doing something different with their lives. I knew a girl in Virginia who went on to become a big star in porn films--I remember what she looked like and who she was before the transformation, and it just makes me sad. I also had a male friend who visited a prostitute once and later expressed real guilt about it--but only for his own sake (because he was a Christian and felt ashamed of his loss of control), rather than out of a sense that he'd victimized or misused a real human being. That's the greater crime here, the lack of love and honor for other souls.

I read an article the other day about how the percentage of unmarried women in the population was growing.. The article tried to put a cheery feminist spin on that, saying something like "hey guys, look out, women don't need you anymore.."

I laughed. Numskull journalists, getting almost exactly backwards, per usual.

Think about it form an adolescent male perspective: between cohabitation (concubinage) and porn, why bother getting married? Why pay for the milk, when there's so many ways of getting your rocks off for free, with out any real final commitment or responsibility?

The people on this thread who say there's no negative social consequence to porn are utterly deluded.

Think about it from the perspective of a single mother, whose once partner is deadbeat on the child support.

He's off somewhere masturbating or knocking up another poor girl. She's raising kids by herself.

I heard Hugh Hefner doesn't even have actual intercourse anymore. He's too vapid and exhaust to actually manage it. Apparently he just watches. And Hugh is glorified the American masculine ideal these last forty years or so.

Yeah, how studly. How manly. Hugh, you poor fool.

A society that valorizes the likes of Hugh Hefner deserves to fizzle, and likely will.

Societal decadence and decline in the dissolution of the family, that's the social cost of your porn folks.

forgot to mention that the NHS in the UK has put out a pamplet that an orgasm a day keeps the doctor away... (and this is to pre teens).

I suppose it sounds more comforting than "NICE keeps the doctor away."

It's something that I know all too well. My addiction to porn started when I was 10 years old and lasted well into my 20's. 16 years to be exact.

What most people fail to realize is that porn is a slippery slope. I too started off with softcore, then hardcore, then voyeur, then rape fantasy, then....well you get the point. Lust can NEVER be quenched, and the more your feed it, the more it requires.

I'm actually in the process of writing a book about my experiences and my deliverance. I've been porn and masturbation free for over a year now, and it's only by the grace of God.

Many of the side effect or byproducts of porn that manifested themselves in my life were the following: perversion, sexual frustration, unrealistic expectations, objectifying women, lying, disillusionment, emotional incompetence, the inability to meet a woman's emotional needs, impatience, and selfishness. There are many many many more, but those are just a few.

Porn is dangerous. 30 years from now scientists and doctors are going to look back and realize how bad it is when the effects have more time to reveal themselves. Just like how smoking wasn't a big deal until people realized it caused cancer, porn will be a mainstream subject until we fully realize the devastating effects of it.

Go to www.xxxchurch.com and read the confessions about how porn addictions have ruined peoples lives.

Ted Bundy admits to Dobson of a porn addiction and how it influenced his heinous crimes. Can you find any more anecdotal evidence that has no bearing on reality?
Pornography for most males has become a part of growing up. Come down from your ivory tower and stop looking for the worst in people.

Charles Curtis: "Masturbation is only interesting for maybe a few minutes."

I don't think you are doing it right.

Oh man, this thread is killing me. Socially conservative Christians, you want to compartmentalize into a binary and then you smugly proclaim you're living such a rigorous, challenging moral life. Wrong. Life is complex, not all porn is bad, some of it is vile and degrading, some if it isn't. It's not a slippery slope, unless you let it be. All you pathetic Christian porn addicts have no one but yourself to blame. Sometimes in a marriage, it's exciting for both the man and the woman to treat the other as an object. I could go on... God, the ignorance.

What I find problematic is the softening of the line between "porn" and mainstream. You can isolate porn, even internet porn. But when every magazine, TV commercial, etc etc has elements of idealized erotica to sell something and when ads in magazines objectify young woman, how do you protect against that? Look at teen age girl magazines. Seriously, look at the magazines your teen daughters are buying. They have stories that are allegedly so empowering, the typical "start your own business" etc sort of stuff. But the ads in these magazines are all about - you have to get a boy and the way to get a boy is through your sexy body. I have seen ads in girls magazines that actually show only the torso with large breasts exposed- the head is out of view. Page after page of very skinny (but with large breasts) semi nude girls throwing themselves at boys for the purpose of selling something. What a message. And of course most girls do not have those kinds of sexy bodies portrayed ( with much air brushing etc) in the magazines so they feel inadequate. You can talk about these things with your kids all you want, but the power of image and the pervasiveness of it has a huge impact on a developing person.

If guys or women want to view porn as adults - fine. But it is harmful to my mind to create this hyper and unrealistic sexualized imagery in everything from selling toothpaste to teen magazines.

Some people are obsessive - and they can become obsessive in their porn viewing habits which of course is a problem like any obsession. But I suspect most people are not going to be obsessive in their use of porn. I am not advocating for porn, I have concerns about the objectifying of women, the unrealistic impression of sex and the body porn creates, and the expolitation of adults and children ( truly horrifying) who get used to produce this stuff. But I doubt we will be able to stop it. I also don't know how we distinguish between that which is truly beautiful and a creative expression of the beauty of the naked body versus that which is degrading and exploitive. There is also a point at which it is about people who themselves are repressed and uncomfortable with sex and the body and to me that sort of repression is equally as damaging as the porn.

I suspect the thing is to be clear about your own behavior - if you value certain things - then live that. And be very engaged with your kids, keep those lines of communication open. Be aware of what they view and help them to see through the message that is being conveyed.
Most important I think is to help your sons and daughters understand what respect for themselves and others really means.

"the only reason to be ashamed of masturbation is doing it badly." -Freud.

Ignoring all the prior posts, busy day here, you do realize Bundy is a classic sociopath? I suspect he was playing JCD like a fiddle.

Steve

Erin at 3:14 says "If women "recoil" from men's desires or fantasies, is it really because women are prudes, or spoiled, or selfish, or the like?"

Yes. And because they enjoy using sex to manipulate men. And because they enjoy the drama of playing The Virgin Susie Pure when a man asks them to be Tiffany The Hooker.

Erin continues, "Or is it because women understand that when a man--especially a husband--wants her to dress up or roleplay, to look or act like a different woman in order to get his attention in the bedroom, that what he's really saying is that he's no longer sufficiently interested in *her* as a human being, and would like her to pretend to be someone else long enough for him to get the sexual release he wants from her?"

No. What he is saying is that he likes steak, but every once in a while seafood is nice. That isn't my concept: go back about 40 years and check out Dear Abby.

I was in a long-term rel-p with a guy who was addicted to porn and masturbation. I did everything I could to fulfill his sexual needs but was unable to change my breasts, legs, rear, and other body parts according to whatever turned him on at a given moment. Guess I'm just a selfish, uptight prude.

Since he was able to download images online and edit the photos as he saw fit, the problem was solved in his mind. And if he masturbated half a dozen times a day who did it hurt? According to him it was his business and nobody else's.

Except ... when he photoshopping the variety he needed no longer did it for him he pushed me aside. Plus, you know he had ambitions, so he married a woman he met months before in law school from a wealthy, connected family who saw right through his social climbing and disowned her. She woke up and dumped him a year later. He died young of natural causes never marrying or having kids.

Maybe if he was able to see women as beings to love the kind of love that is sacramental, he wouldn't have been using women to gratify himself -- whether emotionally, sexually, or economically.

I'm not saying that porn caused him to be a selfish, creepy jerk. But it didn't help.

Ben, you are making a classic argument that, to me, relates to 1st Amendment freedoms such as freedom of speech and freedom of thought. The idea is that it is either OK or not to damaging for kids to be exposed to all sorts of images and ideas because, if we educate them properly, they will learn to distinguish between trash and treasure.

I see at least two problems with this - one is that there is so much more garbage accessible than there used to be, and the other that we don't do a good job educating children to distinguish between garbage and stuff that is authentic and high quality.

I'm not pro-censorship, either. But I think there are some real and not easily-solved problems that are addressed in Rod's post

I was in a long-term rel-p with a guy who was addicted to porn and masturbation. I did everything I could to fulfill his sexual needs but was unable to change my breasts, legs, rear, and other body parts according to whatever turned him on at a given moment. Guess I'm just a selfish, uptight prude.

Since he was able to download images online and edit the photos as he saw fit, the problem was solved in his mind. And if he masturbated half a dozen times a day who did it hurt? According to him it was his business and nobody else's.

Except ... when he photoshopping the variety he needed no longer did it for him he pushed me aside. Plus, you know he had ambitions, so he married a woman he met months before in law school from a wealthy, connected family who saw right through his social climbing and disowned her. She woke up and dumped him a year later. He died young of natural causes never marrying or having kids.

Maybe if he was able to see women as beings to love the kind of love that is sacramental, he wouldn't have been using women to gratify himself -- whether emotionally, sexually, or economically.

I'm not saying that porn caused him to be a selfish, creepy jerk. But it didn't help.

Instead of using porn men should learn game. The simple mechanisms of seducing women. The world is fundamentally unequal in a sexual sense - most women can have sex whenever they want just by being available, but most men cannot, hence the need for porn. So instead of porn learn the art of seduction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88r28BAT6EA

http://www.amazon.com/Mystery-Method-Beautiful-Women-Into/dp/0312360118

That being said, from a gay perspective...

Whenever there's a discussion of porn, I'm tempted to give the (correction) A gay perspective, but I always assumed other non-gay folks would either get mad or just ignore the comments. I guess it's the latter.

Anyway, now that others have brought it up, here's another point. Gay porn doesn't objectify, commodify, or degrade one gender. Both the objectifier and objectifiee, commodifier and commodifiee, degrader and degradee are of the same gender -- or it's just two people sharing sex without necessarily objectifying, commodifying or degrading either of them*. The viewer might associate himself with one actor or another, or both.

* I haven't seen a lot of straight porn in my life. I've certainly never sought it out on purpose! Still, I can't help but to have noticed that the few I've seen didn't seem to be much about mutual pleasure...

Ah, yes. Alanmt and Mr. Bottoms. Of the purported joys of masturbation..

Unfortunately, I have some experience.

I'll tell you guys something, but you probably won't understand what I'm saying. The main reason I hate and avoid masturbation and porn is because of what it does to my prayer life.

Some people like to make fun of Christians for our sexual ethic. But the thing all you don't understand, is that for many of us that sexual ethic actually intensifies our erotic lives.

Not just, or even necessarily in sexual terms (although it can and does do that, too) but in terms of our desire for God, and in our appreciation and love of other people, and beauty generally.

I'm using the word Eros here to mean desire, generally.

Chastity and self control tempered by asceticism, heightens desire and intensifies pleasure. Embraced fervently, and confirmed in prayer it can do insane things to your inner life.

I know, I speak from experience.

And the real kicker is we're often the only ones having actual sex these days. You guys are using the word sex to describe all sorts of genital behaviors that aren't even sexual. Wake up, y'all. Think straight before it's too late.

Suggestion: Throw your hearts to God. Ask Him to teach you humility, which is truth. To inform your consciences. For the grace of repentance. To be truly repentant is joy. Ask Him to teach you how to love (you want pleasure? pray for love. trust me guys, you have no freaking idea.)

Ask Him to teach you how to pray.

If you really ask for these things, and ask for them again and again, you will get them. Then you'll understand why I'm not really into masturbating, anymore.

Cheers, y'all. Pax & Bonum.

No. What he is saying is that he likes steak, but every once in a while seafood is nice.

When he has seafood, is he having oysters...or snails?

anon this time, at 4:41 PM, says:

"If I was married and my husband became impotent due to sickness or an accident, I'd miss sex with him, but I'd likewise adjust my desires and be happy with the marriage even though I didn't bargain for those circumstances."

Agreed. But assume he decided, "She wants X. It would make her incredibly happy. I could easily give her X. But I am not going to do that." Would you still simply "adjust" or would you be, maybe, kinda ticked off?

anaon continues: "You don't seem like loving husband to me but a very angry one."

Let me put it this way: If our last child leaves home for good 18 years from now, one day at 2:00 in the afternoon, I leave at 3:00.

anaon continues: "On the other hand, maybe you are the selfish one."

I work 14 hours a day so she doesn't have to. I bring in $500,000+ a year. I support her fat rear end. I put a ton of money away for my kids. Would there be, just maybe, something in this for moi? You know--15 minutes or so, once a month?

This the variety of thread which strongly reinforces my sense that sexual puritanism is a reaction to- and reflection of- sexual behavioral manifestations of OCD-type disorders.

"I remember the first time I had sex. It was dark...I was scared...alone." - Rodney Dangerfield

Loving Husband,

Well, given your income level, I'm sure you can easily afford that $300/hour hooker who will fulfill your fantasies. And if, as you say, what you want takes only about 15 minutes, it shouldn't even cut unduly into your long workdays.

But you don't seem satisfied with that solution, which suggests to me that all your harsh language (and the noises of feminists on this thread) you really do care for your wife as a person. You want your fantasy, but you want it with her.

I'm wondering if she really understands this. How deeply you're complementing her with your desires. I'm sort of guessing not. If you decide to engage in the seduction suggested by Mr. Curtis above, you should try to find a way to get through to her with this factor.

Hint: mentioning the prostitutes probably isn't a good strategy.

Too much to follow, but it seems like "porn" would constitute a variety of things.

Even from a secularistic perspective I think extremely violent or degrading pornography would be potentially problematic. What if the person goes "too far" and an actor or actress gets hurt? Or for that matter seeing so much linking of sex to violence seems like it could inflame a desire for sexual violence. (As opposed to regular pornography, which arguably encourages sinful yet legal sex) And I think most people oppose some porn, like if the person is taped without their permission or was underaged.

Charles and John E.--Thanks. I have just pretty much given up. I am 54. We had sex about 5 times in 5 years, all within a period of about a week. She explained, "I was reading Christian women's magazines, and they said sex is okay." As it turned out, she was trying to get pregnant. She did, and I have had sex zero times since she conceived about 2 years ago. I don't ask her to take care of herself. She doesn't. I don't ask her to cook. She doesn't. I don't ask her to clean. She doesn't. I don't ask her to work. She doesn't. I do ask her for sex. She won't. And I come here and have anon call me "selfish." Yeah, anon--you can only wish you would get a husband as "selfish" as me. There's a couple of young ladies--Cheyenne and Mazey--looking mighty good right about now. My wife would say, "They're high priced call girls. What have they got?" Well for starters, your husband.

Loving, really, if all you want is sex, that is a commodity which is freely available commercially. And you can find a stunningly attractive woman who will do almost whatever you can dream up.

It's illegal, but it's not very illegal.

I agree that porn can change the brain biochemically and can lead to sexual addiction.

An excellent account of this and the consequences on the lives of those who become addicted can be found in one chapter of the book, “The Brain that Changes Itself” which is about the science of neuroplasticity.

I should say that not all people who use porn become addicted to it but if used as an escape from other problems it is like gambling or drugs. Like any addict you have to keep upping the dose to get high so to speak.

When I hear people say that they need to spice up their love life I always wonder if the women have tried on the lingerie from Victoria's Secret—that works in our marriage. But maybe some would consider that porn too.

"I don't see why people have such a hard time understanding that the objectification of women on a screen is going to lead, however incrementally, to objectification of women in real life."

I keep reading about this objectification of women. Let me ask a simple question: just exactly what does that mean? That men will rate every woman on her attractiveness and not respond to any other quality?

I think porn is sick, but I don't buy that.

'Loving Husband', that is a horrible situation. It sounds like there could be a medical condition involved- a lot of those things you list about your wife do fit to symptoms of pretty severe hypothyroidism. And maybe a bit too much toxic indoctrination.

Roland: But just to show you I am not a prude, I rather like his "Origine du monde." The model looks a bit like my first wife and I still rather fancy her.

Touché!

Charles Curtis: If Hugh Hefner only wants to watch, well, the man *is* after all over 83 years old.

Best evaluation of pornography ever: In the movie Zack and Miri Make a Porno, the two film all sorts of absurd and grotesque scenes, universally characterized by caricatured noises, facial expressions, piston-like movements. Then, when Zack and Miri finally get together to film their own sex scene, there's a remarkable change, when both experience the genuine explosion of desire.

One of the other actors wanders over to the camera man, and says in a bored tone, "Man, are they still doing that boring sh**?" It's funny - the audience laughed - but the contrast was striking between the stereotyped "porn star" machinations, and the love-making couple. It becomes painfully obvious that lovemaking is the *last* thing on the menu.

I think the only thing sadder then a porn addict has to be the sort of person who sits around pontificating about porn's corrosive effect on our society's morality.

And, anecdotally, the only men I've ever met who struggled with their reliance on pornography seemed mainly to feel guilty about watching it and masterbating.

Therefore, it's rather clear to me that the best way to help society move forward towards greater emotional health would be to stop shaming human beings for having needs that are inherently normal and healthy.

Bill Luse compares porn to the cult of efficiency:

"Pornography is the "efficient," uncomplicated (because impersonal), sterile, and soulless version of sex. Being such, should a man marry himself to it, he embraces enslavement, not the life-bearing liberty of love, for the vow is tendered by only one party. And it is a marriage that seems to thrive most happily in the efficiency and prosperity of the modern industrial state. The abortion industry, for example, left unhindered, is a mechanism most efficient in its methods and ends."

http://wluse.blogspot.com/2005/10/sunday-thoughts-goddess-virgin-and-mom.html

And a Tampa Bay newspaper column on the question of what where art ends and porn begins:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/article462065.ece

Porn is not ideal. Porn is not healthy. Porn is selfish.

And THAT my friends is why it has grown in our society. We are becoming more and more selfish and self-centered. There is no relating and sharing and pleasing... there is only one need being met.

There is no thought given to the significant other that's missing out on a shared sexual experience. No learning to love and please them and teaching them the same about you. Who has the time for that?! Why risk the rejection? Pictures don't ask anything in return.

There's no thought given to the girls/guys that are performing. The only thought is me. feel good. now. Who cares that that's someone's daughter, so long as it isn't MY daughter.

It wreaks havoc in a relationship, causes one to question their worth. It sets a standard of fantasy and perfection that another person cannot possibly meet. Breaks down trust and honesty. It causes shame and embarrassment and silence and isolation. It divides rather than unites. Porn is a solo sport that does nothing but ensure you'll be solo.

Step away from your mags and comps and see the real world in front of you... with real people... that have a real capacity to enjoy your time and attention and love, and will really reciprocate.

My response:

1. Aim to give our kids a huge view of God who is gloriously delightful. We can't simply tell our kids to stop doing certain behaviors, but we must also teach them to delight in what God has made. I have been trying to make a discipline out of pointing out all the good in God's creation. This week while we have been on vacation it has been a blessing to watch my two older kids spending hours picking the wild raspberries that grow in Grandma and Grandpa's huge back yard. They need to be reminded that God is so good to give us such amazing created blessings, such as raspberries! If we are not careful we can become functional Gnostics (flesh and matter is bad, only that which is "spiritual" has value) in our communication about ethics with our kids. 1 Tim. 4:4 is a good verse for them to memorize.

2. Teach them the gospel. Our kids are spring loaded to be default legalists. They have to see us model the truth of the gospel through active repentance and forgiveness. They have to know that their acceptance before God is not based on their performance, but on Christ's performance. They have to know that their standing as a family member is not dependant on their obedience as if they could earn that status, but rather, their standing as a family member implies a certain type of living. For example, when we are discinpling our kids we often say, "Since you are a member of this family and since I love you so much, you will not do....". This is far different than saying, "If you want me to love you and if you want to keep living in this house, you better stop doing...!" The indicatives of our faith HAVE to preceed the imperatives. If we reverse that order we'll be in a heap of trouble.

3. Teach them that boundaries bring freedom and obedience is a blessing. One of the greatest means that I have observed in my sanctification is believing that obedience is a blessing. When I was a kid I thought that if I screwed up, God was going to whack me with a big stick. No one ever taught me this (that I can recall) but it's simply what I gravitated towards. Obedience was not motivated by love, but rather by fear of punishment. This didn't get me very far.

When my kids are age appropriate I plan to communicate the truth that sexual sin will never prove to bring freedom. They can choose to reap the harmful consequences of disobedience, but will warn them from God's word and personal experience that they don't want to go down that path.

4. Talk to them sooner than later about sex. Twenty-five years ago, when I was 8, I remember going next door to our neighbor's back garage. As any curious kid would do, I liked to snoop around a bit. I soon discovered that he had boxes full of Playboy magazines. Sometimes a friend and I would sneak out there and grab a few of the magazines and go sit in the bushes and look at the naked women. Back then, that was a risky endeavor that filled my stomach with butterflies for fear of getting caught by my parents or the neighbor man, but today all you need is a closed door and an internet connection.

I'm not sure yet how this will go down, but I know I will need to help my kids know what is out there and why it is so destructive. Some would say that this will just serve to stir up their curiosity, but what is the alternative? I would rather have them be warned by me, so that I can give them reasons and means to fight it, than have them just stumble upon it someday on the internet.

5. Begin to train your kids on how to interact with the opposite sex. We have already started to "date" our two older kids. Once a month (on the number of the month of their birthday) we rotate taking them on dates. We feel that it is very important for them, at a very early age, to begin to experience what it looks like to be treated well by a member of the opposite sex. Especially for girls, having no healthy male attention from Dad will often lead them to seek it out in unhealthy ways from younger men who are more than willing to provide it. My boys need to learn that women are not objects to be consumed but that God will someday provide them a helpmate that they will have the opportunity to lay down their lives for through loving service.

6. Guard who your kids spend time with. Since sexual exposure is so much more accessible today than it was 25 years ago, we are much more aware of who are children spend time with. There will come an age (sooner than I want to think about) when we won't be able to guard them as tightly, but hopefully the above points will have taken root in their lives so they will be able to make wise decisions.

7. Put Your Computer in a Public Place and Turn Off The T.V.
We don't plan to let our kids spend unsupervised time on the computer and it will be limited. Certainly this will change as they get older, but again, hopefully by then, they will have tasted of the blessing of obedience and have interalized the gospel. Victory over porn is definitly a heart issue, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't have structures in place to help us have victory over sin. Since all victory over sin is a heart issue, does that mean I should just place myself in dangerous situations all the time to prove the point? "I want to know that my obedience is motivated by more than just following the right rules, so I am going to dive into unwise situations that could lead to sin, just to see if I am strong enough to withstand it!" That is absurd. We need right hearts so as to not be legalists, but right boundaries can help us experience God's blessing of obedience.

The T.V. will show your kids functional soft porn all the time. There are so many better things to do with your kids than watch T.V. Read with them, play sports with them, experience creation with them, tell them a story, or just serve them in an activity that they dictate. The key phrase here is "with them". If they spend more time with the T.V. than they do with you as a parent, you know you are in trouble.

8. Seek to cultivate a relationship with your kids such that they feel as though they can be open with you about anything. As a young Dad, I am not totally sure how to pull this one off, but I know that it will come through modeling this kind of openness with them. I will seek to draw out their hearts and show them that if they are honest with me, Dad will be fair, loving and offer a listening ear to them. I will need to initiate honest discussion with them and take risks of communication with them. If they see me as guarded and reserved why would I expect them to be any different?

This is in response to "A Wife":

It sounds to me like your views on porn have been shaped by specific issues you've had with "A Husband," and are assuming that everyone's experience with porn is the same.

"There is no relating and sharing and pleasing... there is only one need being met" and "Porn is a solo sport that does nothing but ensure you'll be solo."

No, MASTURBATION is a solo sport—and you're right, there's no relating and sharing and pleasing, it's all about meeting one specific need. That is the purpose of masturbation: it's something to do when you're alone, or when your significant other is not interested in sex, or is sleeping, or you can't fall asleep, or you're bored, etc. Porn is merely something men use when masturbating (let's face it, most consumers of porn are men).

"There is no thought given to the significant other that's missing out on a shared sexual experience."

What if you don't have a significant other?

"No learning to love and please them and teaching them the same about you. Who has the time for that?! Why risk the rejection? Pictures don't ask anything in return."

What if your significant other is not interested in the things that turn you on, or vice versa? What if one of you finds the other's desires distasteful? You have a few options: suppress them—which is not healthy and can be destructive to your relationship—explore them with someone else— which is immoral and can be destructive to your relationship—or vent your personal desires through masturbation, perhaps utilizing pornography while doing so.

"It wreaks havoc in a relationship ..."

It CAN—there's nothing inherently destructive about porn in a relationship, it depends on the people involved.

"... causes one to question their worth."

It's not about you.

"It sets a standard of fantasy and perfection that another person cannot possibly meet."

It can, for people who are unable to separate fantasy from reality, but not any more than the rest of popular culture: magazines, TV, movies, etc. Most of us manage to understand the difference pretty easily.

"Breaks down trust and honesty. It causes shame and embarrassment and silence and isolation."

Let me guess. Your husband never told you he viewed porn because he knew you didn't like it, then you found out he did, and he was ashamed because you made him feel embarrassed about it. Then you made him promise not to view it anymore, but you ended up catching him using it again. He wasn't honest with you because he didn't feel he could be, and now you don't trust him.

But forget about your marriage for a minute, cause I'm just speculating and could be wrong. In the real world, a lot of real people don't have anyone that can or will reciprocate their time and attention and love. What would you have them do?

Do you object to men THINKING about doing things with women while they masturbate? Is it just the LOOKING that bothers you? Or are you just anti-masturbation in general?

truly this is a messy world and has a powerful pull on people's lives . . .

it reminds me of alcoholism in that any man (and women too) who has experienced the addiction will remain vulnerable. We can have freedom over this (I believe in the power of Christ), but victory awaits the other side of the grave.

FYI - one of the ads on the side of your site had a softcore porn picture of Rachel Ray. Advertisers abuse the dignity of women in their efforts to get me to click on their lies.

"late-Roman" culture was devoutly Christian, and relatively chaste. The era of Roman debauchery was the late Republic and early Empire, centuries earlier.

DaveM: consider these two sentences:

John dislikes dogs, which chase cats.
John dislikes dogs which chase cats.

Adding the comma implies that the second clause applies to all dogs.

Pornography is one of the most difficult addictions to break. I believe that the first step in overcoming this addiction is understanding just how harmful it is to your self-esteem and relationship. Victoria Prater and Garry Prater have come out with a great book titled "Love and Pornography." Having gone through this trial in their marriage, they have come up with some great helps for others battling this problem. Awesome book!

http://gethelpwithporn.com/about/