Nidal Hasan isn't the only Muslim U.S. soldier

That's a piss poor tribute to the 13 people who died yesterday.

It's not meant as a tribute to those who died, it's meant as a reminder that not every Muslim is somehow a terrorist.

I saw a former JAG officer on CNN claiming that Nidal must be part of some larger terrorist plot. He had no other evidence for his claim than that the man had an Arabic (which too many people assume means, Muslim) name.

I grieve for those who were so mindlessly murdered and I pray for theior families and all those who were wounded and traumatized. But their memories will not be served by kneejerk prejudice that tars others who have been good citizens...and oin a number of cases, good soldiers. America is better than that, which is why they were willing to fight for it.

Dymphna, Stari, stop it.

I have served along side Muslims. I have served with Christians who converted to Islam at Arabic language school. I have met native speaker military interpreters who volunteered to enlist for that dangerous duty, as well as Muslims who served in regular positions like personnel and medic. I have served with civilian contractor linguists, and have personally SEEN THEM SAVE LIVES by rapidly translating real-time, actionable intelligence. This was not a one-time event. That's just what I personally saw. I heard about plenty of other episodes, and I'm sure there are hundred of episodes that you and I will never learn about.

Say what you will. I know for a fact that if it weren't for Muslims in the military and serving alongside the military as civilian contractors, my Brigade's casualty rate would have been three or four times as high.

MAJ Hasan clearly has some serious issues. He should have been dealt with before things came to this. But that doesn't change the facts that Muslims have served honorably and well, and continue to do so.

This is a non-sequiter.

Because some Muslims do not have a problem with America does not mean that America – and the World – doesn’t have a Muslim problem.

@AnotherBeliever

You're not the only one to have "served". I didn't see combat, but I put myself in a position to go to Bosnia -- yes, in the intel community -- long before

Undoubtedly there are Muslims serving honorably and faithfully in the US military. However, we must acknowledge that fact that there is serious danger in a certain Islamic ideology present in some Muslim soldiers. So, how do we root these individuals out without trampling on the rights of the decent ones?

Rodney,

I expect more from you than the kind of rampant speculation and innuendo that you offered in an earlier blog post. You're simply too fine a journalist to ignore your obligations to both the truth and to skepticism.

Make no mistake. If Hasan took such action for religious reasons, it will come out. We will learn the facts.

But that takes time.

I'm not Muslim. I'm not Born Again. I'm just a Conservative who is committed to rigorous, unbending factual accuracy and to patience. I've learned enough to know that these things take time and that the Internet and cable television often ignore time and facts at the expense of speed and incendiary commentary.

You know better, Rodney.

Let's take your first paragraph of your earlier post piece by piece.

"We now know that the Fort Hood shooter, Hasan, was a Muslim, and fancied himself a devout one."

Muslim, yes. Devout? Not exactly. That's not been confirmed. We have all sorts of reports. Some news outlets have reported that Hasan is a lax Muslim. Others have reported that he is devout. No one has confirmed anything.

"We know that he shouted "Allahu akbar!" as he executed American soldiers."

The Army and law enforcement authorities have confirmed no such thing. We do have reports that Hasan make such a statement. But those reports lack corroboration. Right now, we just do not know.

"We are informed by a retired Army colonel and co-worker of Hasan's that he had been talking about how America has no business in the Muslim world, and that Muslims should rise up against the military."

Again, we have the report of the retired Army colonel. We also have the report that some unidentified individuals in the military mocked Hasan for being a Muslim. Army and law enforcement officials have confirmed nothing. We just do not know.

"And we know that on the day of the killings, Hasan went out in traditional Arab garb; you don't see that often in Killeen, Texas, suggesting that the Army major, who was raised in America, had developed a strong identification with his ethnic and religious background."

A female reporter on CNN Anderson Cooper's show provided security camera video of Hasan in a local convenience store. According to the reporter, Hasan was a regular customer of the store. The clerk at the store said he/she spoke from time to time with Hasan. Even more interesting, CNN reported that the clerk said that Hasan some days appeared in the store in Arab clothing. On other days, Hasan was seen wearing his military uniform. Hasan also was seen wearing surgical scrubs.

Do you wish to assert that all men in military garb are prone to commit such violent shootings?

Do you wish to assert that all men in surgical scrubs are more likely to shoot up their place of work?

Of course not. Again, we just do not know. Right now, the Army and law enforcement officials have reported nothing. It's an ongoing criminal investigation. Don't expect much in the next 24 to 72 hours. Law enforcement, on orders from legal prosecutors, will always certain factual information out of the public - for the simple fact that doing so only enhances the likelihood of conviction.

As a newspaper reporter, you should know this. You do know this!

"One of his neighbors in Maryland, the last place he lived, remembered him fondly as calm, nice and, quote, 'religious'."

Care to assert that devoutly religious Born Agains or the Kansan charged with murdering the abortion doctor earlier this year are less or more likely than an American-Muslim to commit single or mass slaughter? If so, provide FACTUAL SUPPORT showing the direct correlation between Muslims and higher incidents of murder and/or mass murder.

Rodney, the truth will come out. Be rest assured of this fact. Just remain committed to the truth. Remain committed to accuracy. In the end, all of us will be better for it.

Is it Rodney, or Roderick? I hope it is the latter.

I did not see combat either. I served in Iraq, but I did not go on patrols or convoys. And I am no longer in Active service, I'm now a full time grad student.

"TM
November 6, 2009 12:52 PM

Undoubtedly there are Muslims serving honorably and faithfully in the US military. However, we must acknowledge that fact that there is serious danger in a certain Islamic ideology present in some Muslim soldiers. So, how do we root these individuals out without trampling on the rights of the decent ones?"

Soldiers have very limited rights. This concern is irrelevant for all intents and purposes. Members of the military are always subject to search of quarters without a warrant, monitoring of internet and phone calls through the military's comm system, detention without formal charges, etc.

Criminal Investigative Departments and Counterintelligence specialists will investigate this incident. Memorandums and policies and "lessons learned" will be swiftly disseminated across the military services. I am sure that keeping an eye out for this sort of thing will become a new priority for all commands now, given the high number of casualties.

Total *active* military, no Coasties, no reserves = 1.402 million
First article linked *high* estimate for Muslims serviing in the Armed Services = 20,000
Proportion Muslims Serving 1.43%

High estimate, US Muslim population 7 million 2.30 % ( US pop 305M)
Low estimate US Muslim population 5 million 1.64%

Muslim's serve at 87% of their population in the *best* case (1.43/1.64)
Muslims serve at 62% of their population with the high estimate of numbers in the military, high estimate of population

With low estimate (10000) of serving Muslims numbers are 44% and 31%

Actually, AnotherBeliever's post has caused me to re-think their casuality rate, however, as no doubt the military is keen to send those they do have "downrange". At the same time I suspect quite a few Muslims -- like the alleged shooter here -- are in Medical/Dental/Legal jobs. Those Muslims in the US now still make up a highly educated group

BTW I got the 5 to 7 million figure for Muslims from the linked article in D. Nicola's post.

"In the United States, Islam is the fastest growing religion. There are currently five to seven million Muslims who are U.S. citizens."

I see he uses a much lower figure for number of Muslims from Pew. I think sticking to the numbers from the single source is better.

Undoubtedly there are Muslims serving honorably and faithfully in the US military. However, we must acknowledge that fact that there is serious danger in a certain Islamic ideology present in some Muslim soldiers. So, how do we root these individuals out without trampling on the rights of the decent ones?

Well put TM - this is the issue - to identify and remove any soldier who shares this dangerous ideology - not to paint very Muslim living in the US as dangerous.

I don't think these irrational expressions of hatred honor those people who were killed yesterday.

Stari, your statement is accurate. About half of my language instructors and half the civilian contractors I worked with were Chaldean, Assyrian, or Arab Christian. The other half were Muslim. Several of these were from ethnic minorities or political dissident groups whose families had suffered under oppressive regimes (in Iraq, Egypt, Sudan, etc.) before emigrating to the U.S.

All of them, Muslim and Christian alike, were fully vetted U.S. citizens. I would characterize their motivations (this obviously varies) as loyalty to the units they served with, loyalty to the U.S. (the U.S. is where they escaped persecution), and money, as civilian contractor pay in a combat zone is substantial.

The Muslim soldiers I served with tended not to serve in combat arms, but minorities in general are under-represented in combat arms/over-represented in support positions, with the notable exception of Filipinos, Latinos, and American Indians. This trend has increased since the recent wars started. There are entire studies on the ethnic makeup of our armed forces, and this is a bit off-topic at any rate. I will point out that one major motivator for immigrants serving in the military is that it considerably expedites their applications for citizenship.

Those Muslims who enlist as interpreters do so with the understanding that they will earn a tenth what civilian contractors could earn doing the same job, and that they, unlike their civilian counterparts, cannot refuse an assignment or mission because it is dangerous or uncomfortable. They go out with combat troops, day in and day out. There have been some problems with some of them, but for the most part, they get the job done, and better than any U.S. soldier who only learned the language and culture as a young adult.

From a CSM article:

The U.S. armed services don't recruit by religion, but the Pentagon estimates at least 3,386 Muslims were serving in the U.S. military as of September. No precise figures are available because, while U.S. service members are surveyed on their religion, they aren't required to disclose it. Advocacy groups put the number at 15,000, saying many are reluctant to reveal their religion. African-Americans represent the largest share of Muslims in uniform, they add.

I think we share some similar experiences, another believer.

I worked with contract linguists, both US and local, in Bosnia. A lot were Serbian-Americans. We had exactly two problems in my year and a half there with a Serbian-America. A young couple quit without notice when we starting airstrikes against Belgrade in 1999. Thats it -- they just quit.

On the other hand, one of my military colleagues got in some trouble -- not serious, but some official trouble -- simply for having a list of ethnically cleansed Serbian villages (most in Croatia) taped to his pos. The guy had no connection with Serbia, just a respect for the truth. He was one hell of a linguist. Point is, for this little act of "disloyalty" he was brought to the attention of the command. Things must be changing in the military, if reports of the alleged shooter's behavior before the incident are true.

I agree with the other commenters that this post is an almost reflexive SWPL cringe.

Stari, RE: Murder statistics
Did you know that in 2007, the city of Miami FL had just 19 murders? So, did the race/ethnicity change over night? That same year Buffalo NY, a city of 273,832, had 20 murders. Must be all that snow, right?

It doesn't matter what the numbers are. If a muslim in our military gave his life in defense of our country then he deserves our deepest thanks for his sacrifice, though that would hardly suffice to compensate him or his family for their sacrifice.

By the same token, if a muslim in or out of our military murdurs 12 people for religious reasons, or without them, then that person deserves the maximum punishment allowed by the law.

It's not a difficult issue.

How is this post even remotely helpful?

We know some Muslims have died. But given their overall attitude - and I'm referring to moderate Muslims - how is this post intended to diminish our suspicion that they don't really mean what they tell us.

Would posting a story on an ex-convict running into a burning house be expected to serve as a denouncement of prisons?

On another topic; I have to really wonder if Frum's progeny will ever wear a uniform.

Mark H. - you said it!

By the way, that he cried out "God is Great" is a rumor not confirmed by the military.

The whole thing is perplexing. His supervisor at the hospital said he was a real asset and very good at his job. His Iman (spelling?) says he always thought the guy was patriotic and very committed to the military, he wore his uniform to prayers all the time. His neighbors say he had no problems going to Afghanistan it was just Iraq that bothered him. He was giving stuff away to his neighbors in preparation for leaving for Iraq. And then suddenly he goes nuts and decides to shoot people? People who do such horrible things are not rational and we will probably never know what set him off as he doesn't look like he'll survive. But from what is being said it does not look like this man was an obvious time bomb and that the Army really can be blamed for not picking up on it.

exclusive photo: Nidal Malik Hasan in Muslim clothes smiling hours before Fort Hood massacre

Wow ... Someone thinks that "Benyahmin ben Yahudah" is a MUSLIM name? Or that the obviously Tibetan name "Tenzin Dengkhim" = Muslim? Seriously?

Stari Momak,

While I *strongly* disagree with your views, I've previously admired the intellectual consistency and honesty you seem to maintain while arguing for ends I find repulsive. However, I'm begining to think i was mistaken in that.

Your calculations are based around using 5 million as the *low* estimate for Muslims in the US and 7 million as the high figure, which is pretty much absurd. If you looked at the Pew link I posted and followed the links from there, you would find that there has been very considerable debate about this, and that the only people who have tried to maintain that there are five million, let alone seven, are interest groups who gain directly from the idea that there are more Muslims. The 'analyses' that produce these figures are based on deductions and extrapolations rather than real data. It is, in fact, far easier to find studies that estimate there are fewer than 2.8 million than studies that estimate there are 7 million. ARIS reckon 1.8 million, NORC 1.9 million, Hartford Institute for Religious Research 2 million and so on.

Using any of these figures in your analyses would suggest that in fact Muslims are serving and dying at a far higher rate than their share of the population, but that would be cherrypicking the data to suit a prejudice - which is what you seem to be doing. The best study that has been done, from reading up on several, seems to be Pew's, which is why I used that. It's disinterested and seems to be methodologically sound. Its estimate is also (thought this is less important) somewhere in the middle of the less competent studies, as one might expect. If you want to argue for another study than that's fine, but you need to make that argument rather than ignoring the Pew study because it's inconvenient.

Indeed, the weaker point in my argument was and is the figure for number of Muslims in the Army, simply because there has not been a truly decent study done. All the figures are estimates. That said - the 15,000 is in the middle of the estimates and seems to be a figure no-one has taken considerable issue with. Some organisations (such as the American Muslim Armed Forces and Veterans Affairs Council) argue that 20,000 should be treated as the very lowest estimate and that the true figure is much higher.

Other confounding factors that neither I nor you have bothered with so far - Muslim Americans are generally somewhat younger than the average population, so should be expected to serve in greater numbers; they're also more likely to belong to the upper income quintile, who remain under represented in the military; they're disproportionately based in the Northern states, from where people serve less....

All in all, though, it seems relatively clear that cut the figures how you will, the slightest effort to be fair suggests that Muslims are serving in more or less the numbers one would expect, and, in fact, that they are dying at a somewhat higher rate - using your figure that those with 'Muslim-sounding names' represent 1.1% of casualties (which ignores the fact that many American Muslims are African Americans who do not always change their name on conversion) with the Pew figure that they represent 0.82% of the population suggests that they're dying about 40% more than they, proportionately, should.

This makes conceptual sense as well, given that Arabic speakers are more likely to be posted into theatre. Muslim soldiers generally serve the country well and those that do should be respected for it; their service should not be understated or ignored.

Some links you may care to look at -

tinyurl.com/adab6 (AJC analysis of Muslim population studies)

tinyurl.com/yj7ffo3 (Post Gazette summary of the argument over Muslim population studies)

tinyurl.com/34nt7m (Adherents.org analysis of the Muslim population and listing of relevant articles)

tinyurl.com/r8z6o (Useful listing and brief analysis of the Muslim population studies which have been done from religioustolerance.org)

tinyurl.com/2c5v3d (The full Pew study; the previous link I posted sends you to some Q and A's on their methodology which I commend to your attention).

tinyurl.com/yg9quv3 (Supreme Court amici brief in case regarding Muslim veterans; some useful data sources listed in the footnotes)

James Nicola

James -- you used 10-20000 Muslims in military service from the article you linked. Well that same article says 5 -7 million Muslims in the US. I'm just using your source consistently, not hunting around for lows and highs to make my case. I even quoted the paragraph in the article. If the numbers are correct for the 20000, then why not the 5 to 7 million. I think that is also the number that CAIR puts out.

I am from California -- we have a lot of Muslims, Somalis in San Diego, Iranians in Beverly Hills (although many of those are Jews) , Turks, Syrians etc in the San Fernando valley. I understand that New York, Minnesota, Michigan, etc are now home to huge numbers of recent immigrant/offspring Muslims. Add to that a pretty sizable population of African American "Black" Muslims -- I think we are talking more than 2.5 million.

@Your name

The Benyahmin ben Yahudah was a bit of a joke -- as was the Brian *Christopher* Karim. However, I looked both these guys up, and it turns out Benyahmin is a black/African American from Georgia, but Jewish. He's the Sami Davis/Whoopi Goldberg demographic!

Can't find much on the interwebs on Brian Karim.

As for Tenzin Dengkhim, I was thinking maybe central Asian, i.e. Turkish Muslim. Glad to be corrected on that.

What a waste of time. Frum thinks the most important thing on this day is to post pictures of graves of Muslim military folks who were killed.

The fact is, something like this happens, and some idiots say "we should round them up like the Japanese" and then idiots on the other side yell, "See! They're all racist, we need to protect the true Muslims and show that it's a peaceful religion."

Meanwhile, the other 95% of us say, "Gee, we should probably make sure he wasn't part of a wider terrorist network since, you know, their is a network intent on plotting our demise and those people that are screaming about internment camps are idiots" and we shake our head because the media and journalists (Rod included) gravitate to the extremes and throw out all reasoned thinking and debate.

It is a little interesting that when someone wacks an abortion doctor, Christians scream about how he doesn't represent all or most Christians, but when a brown man kills people it's indicative of a total (OK, majority) religion.

The fact is, no religion is a religion of peace, by it's very nature. If you don't believe in my God - you're going to hell. Hence, the wacko's who go all over the world, from all religions, trying to convert the heathens. And the church-folk say, "my religion isn't like that, that was back during the inquisition" because they attend churchs, with people they know and like and do wonderful things in the community (no sarcasm here, so don't read that into my comment). And something bad might happen, so you switch to the catholic church across the street. Then something happens there so you go try out the methodists on the other side of town (I've seen people do this in my hometown). But it just seems like the Macro view of religions, is what I stated at the start of this paragraph - they're inherently violent and net-negative. I think history has born that out - and continues to as well.

I think Henry David Thoreau had that right idea in Civil Disobediance and Self Reliance. I find myself thinking about those essays more and more these days.

@anotherbeliever

Mourad Ragimov -- white, caucasian looking, probably Chechen or Tartar or Azeri, has a bit of Arabic writing on his Tomb, not a Crescent/Star. Is there any significance to this?

On second thought, it looks like it might be just a stylized "R" -- a sort of tugra

I recommend the visiting the page -- his Dad looks really proud at his graduating boot camp. He (the Dad) would have undoubtedly served in the Soviet military -- and looks about the right age to have been in Afghanistan. I understand that a disproportionate number of Muslims/Central Asians took part in that campaign.

That's not Arabic. It's the Sanskrit word Om, written in the Devnagari script, which is generally identified with Buddhism. Was this one of the photos someone represented as a fallen Muslim soldier? It's possible his family is Muslim, but looks like he identified as Buddhist.

Frum is a weak sister who would shove SSM down our throats. He is best ignored.

Where does Brian come from? I mean what world view could possibly inspire him to write "... it just seems like the Macro view of religions, is what I stated at the start of this paragraph - they're inherently violent and net-negative. I think history has born that out - and continues to as well."

Perhaps Brian's history has been learned from the thin gruel of propaganda disguised as history taught in our public schools. Secular ideologies have inspired more men to murder other men than has any religion, with the exception of Islam. Extreme nationalism and that pristine form of socialism known as communism have piled up unimaginable body counts, all in the name of a compelling world view that met the "religious" aspirations of their adherents. In a similar way Islam has from the beginning been a religion of violence, and has spawned terror on a global scale, pretty much wherever Muslims live in large numbers among non-believers. This is not a slam on all Muslims, nationalists or communists. Individuals are capable of both noble or base actions, despite the creed or ideology that animates them, because they are human, made in the image of God and capable of following or ignoring the natural law written on their hearts. Randy Cohen, the New York Times resident "Ethicist" said last week we should be more vocal when it comes to criticism of the dogmas and behaviors that flow from religious beliefs which offend us. Of course, Cohen, being Cohen, wants to encourage public condemnation of Catholicism, but if anything criticism should be focused on the career, history, and trajectory launched upon the world by a deluded tribal militant in the early 7th century.

America, whether left or right, is in the grip of a tragic,possibly fatal error; one so ingrained in our character that we forget that the Constitution, indeed our social order, is the product of a particular offshoot of western Christendom and cannot function outside that context. A few Muslims here and there won't harm our society; more than a few will. I will be happy to share my family's recent experience in the formerly Christian nation of Lebanon for any skeptics out there.

While I *strongly* disagree with your views, I've previously admired the intellectual consistency and honesty you seem to maintain while arguing for ends I find repulsive. However, I'm begining to think i was mistaken in that.

Bigotry corrupts; and not just moral, but epistemic virtues too. Mark Shea's pithier: evil makes you stupid.

wow... i cant believe Kalambong's comment. Who ever they are, they are def. among the most ignorant people in our world. First of all, there are many, many people in this country and around the world who commit crimes, murder. im sure if you ask them, they consider themselves Christians, Jews, or what ever else they think they are. How do you explain the people on the news a few years back, the ones who believed they where strict Christians, alto they where holding the signs praising god for dead soldiers? Before you go out talking extremely ignorant... stop to think a minute. Ones actions shouldn't punish the whole group. If they did, then you could easily say that Americans are the same thanks to the actions of Black water security in Iraq when they would do random drive by shooting of innocent people.
dont waste your brain, its a gift, think.

Of the three Abrahamic religions, Christians are ahead -- easily -- in the killing stakes.

cirdan you are simply showing your ignorance of history.

Who are you and what have you done with the Rod Dreher who wrote all the other Fort Hood posts on this blog?

Some lovely commenters, btw.

They're all terrorists. Any muslim makes a pact to inflict their religion and morals on any "infidel" (someone who has chosen to not believe in that rubbish) by any means necessary, even if that includes mass murder of children, innocents, and especially American soldiers.

Islam as a peaceful religion my ass.

Death to Islamic Fundamentalism and Extremism. Enough of this peaceful and tolerant bullshit. They hate us. They want to kill as many of us as possible. The facts are the facts and there is no denying it. It is painfully obvious by now. Get them out of our military NOW!