Flirting with Faith

Extreme Faith (and Extreme Skepticism) as Excess?

Tuesday October 27, 2009

A frequent visitor on the blog - a vocal skeptic who has made clear a rather biting disdain for religion and the faithful - left the following comment on a post a few days ago. These thoughts on excess, standards for skepticism and the nature of belief are provocative. Would love to hear your thoughts...

Credis Dervish writes: 
we can't talk about religion without talking about excess. this doesn't mean that everyone who is religious is a fantatic. but it does mean that religious beliefs are very important to those who hold them, even if they do not make sense. indeed, people will sometimes sacrifice their lives and the lives of other people for them; their relationship to their gods can be the most important thing in their lives. by definition these supernatural forces must be more powerful than the people who believe in them. they are often perceived as both ominiscient and omnipotent.

those who do not believe in supernatural beings are struck by two things; first, that these deities seem to be, by definition, excessive - excessively punitive, excessively loving, excessively demanding, and excessively in need of people's devotion. and second, that religious believers, even moderate ones, seem to have excessive confidence in their gods, and are excessively eager to please them.

the more extreme skeptics of religion, often in rather patronizing ways, find the whole thing rather irrational. but where do the skeptics get their knowledge of what is irrational from? how does anyone know what too much belief is? it is the hope of modern liberals that we can all talk about the things that matter most to us without losing our tempers or killing people. do we believe this too much?
what mattered most to most people, until very recently, was their relationship with their gods, and gods, traditionally, have been to die for; one of the things people have been able to do, in the name of religion, is sacrifice their lives and the lives of others.

what people use their religious beliefs to do - what they do in the name of their religions - might make us wonder not simply what should we believe, but what kind of thing is a belief? clearly a belief can be something that permits you to kill people. our religious beliefs may be the tools we use to manage - to legitimate and contain - the excesses of our nature. so from a psychoanalytic point of view we don't only have to say, as freud said, that religion is for people who are frightened of growing up. we can say, though, that we have delegated to a figure called god all the excesses, including addictions and nasty habits, we find most troubling in ourselves, which broadly speaking are our excessive love for ourselves. 

god in this view carries the part of ourselves that asks too much of us, that is endlessly demanding, that wants us to be better than we are.
being excessive in words or actions, in inflammatory rhetoric or violent actions, is a form of communication. what the religious fanatic knows is just how contagious excess can be. excessive words and actions are haunting, they make one's presence felt; they make people excessive in their responses. priests, nietzsche wrote, have shown almost inexhaustible ingenuity in exploring the implications of this one question: how is an excess of emotion to be attained? if you can make people excessively emotional you can manipulate them, and one of the best ways of making them excessively emotional is to do something excessive to them. suicide bombers don't convert people, but they make the existence of their religion unforgettable, undismissible.

there is another possibility, the one that i want to end on because it seems to me potentially the most interesting, though perhaps the most daunting. this is that the religious fanatic is someone for whom something about themselves and their lives is too much; and because not knowing what that is is so disturbing they need to locate it as soon as possible. because the state of frustration cannot be borne - because it is literally unbearable, as long-term personal and political injustice always is - it requires an extreme solution.
in this account irrational behavior shows us how obscure we are to ourselves or how we obscure ourselves; how our frustrations, odd as this may seem, are excessively difficult to locate, to formulate. wherever and whenever we are excessive in our lives it is the sign of an as yet unknown deprivation. our excesses are the best clue we have to our own poverty, and our best way of concealing it from ourselves.
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Comments
Greg
October 31, 2009 10:16 AM
http://tamingthewolf.com

When I encounter someone who approaches with such disdain and ridicule toward others, it leaves me wondering what it was, exactly, that caused hatred to take up residence in their heart.

While there may be a surface level attempt to use "science" as rational justification for a position, it turns out science does not hold up and the disdainful have no background in science. So that topic is dropped quickly.

Then the philosophical issues are raised -- and we discover the disdainful have no real background in philosophy and they soon drop that discussion.

Pop psychology usually rears its silly head with the disdainful being willing to provide a psycho analysis from their lofty perch on the couch. But that, too, quickly is seen to lack merit, so it is dropped.

And then we get to the pure response. The ridicule. The foot tapping. The disdainful sit there tapping their feet, eyes covered so as not to see, ears covered so as not to hear, and their mind blocked so as to not think. They proof they demand is our ability to overwhelm their tantrum and force them to understand.

But force is not a path to spiritual awareness. No one is going to force someone to open their eyes, open their ears, open their mind.

If the spiritual path is not for you, then it is not for you. It really is that simple.

If you have a wound, a hurt, you need treated, if you need something for the pain, then it makes sense to be upfront about the nature of that discomfort.

Otherwise the attempt to belittle others, to ridicule them, to dismiss them can only be seen as existential meanness. And I doubt you see yourself as simply being a mean being. Maybe...when you stop tapping your foot maybe you can explain.


Edward T. Babinski
November 4, 2009 12:58 PM

I did more than flirt with faith, but left the fold after too many questions arose.

I suggest that faith does not make a person immune to doubt, and may in fact inspire them to study what they believe far more deeply than ever before, until questions arise, and then one either sticks it out, or leaves a particular religious fold and becomes a deist, mystic, agnostic, or atheist.

Remaining in the fold with one's questions, i.e., "sticking it out" can make a person either more liberal and loving, or turn them into people who reject even the slightest sound of doubts in others.

Lastly, I suspect that many believers in particular religious traditions are torn between being honest and open about their doubts and the wish to remain a part of a social group and not be rejected by them (friends/family, etc.).

There's ministers and priests who have more doubts than they are able to let on to their own congregations.

There's wives and husbands unable to speak about their questions openly with each other, or with their children for fear of all the falderol that may result.

There's spouses who are matched belief-wise when they wed, yet one of whose beliefs may change over time, and the other not follow along, creating great tension in the family.

A lot of religions and even denominations assure people that they and their religion holds the golden ticket to eternal life and paradise. Thus simply questioning aspects of that particular religion or denomination many induce fear and raise falderol.

Greg
November 4, 2009 7:57 PM
http://tamingthewolf.com

Edward, good analysis.

Doubt certainly is part of the equation. And how one deals with doubt is no insignificant question.

There are those, myself among them, who come to the spiritual pursuit as a result of a positive existential doubt rather than as a search for a false certainty.

Using the language of Buddhism, we come seeking enlightenment.

On the journey of spiritual formation, doubt is a constant companion, but not the nagging nihilist companion one might imagine, but rather the friend that entices one to look further, to look deeper.

This approach rarely seeks or garners the type of social approval you mention. All too often the mystic is shunned or worse. You are correct in noting that when one raises questions that may touch the wound of uncertainty or doubt, a negative reaction may be in the offering.

You have identified a central challenge in the spiritual journey -- a topic well worth exploring. Thanks.

vitamine h      
November 9, 2009 5:41 AM
http://www.vitabits.fr/vitamines

Hello
This post is really well written with good words.I also believe that everyone who is religious is a fantastic.Thank you very much for sharing this with us.

Joan Ball
November 9, 2009 3:42 PM

Hello vitamine h: Thank you for stopping by. Where are you located?

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About Flirting with Faith

Joan Ball is a professor of communication and marketing and author of the upcoming book, Flirting with Faith: My Journey from Atheism to Agnosticism to a Devoted Life. A lifelong seeker/skeptic who was raised without a prescribed notion of God, she experienced a dramatic and unlikely conversion to Christianity at age 37. She brings to the Beliefnet conversation an insider/outsider perspective on living a faith that both delights and confounds her.

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