It should come as no surprise to readers here that Sojourners feels way too much is spent on “security” spending. What surpised me is the implication in Duane’s piece that Sojourners recognizes there are social programs that are not key. What might those be, and does Sojourners endorse the elimination of those programs as wasteful, too?

Speaking of the Bush-Blair war, I don’t suppose there has been much coverage in the US media, but you ought to be aware how much anger there is in Britain at the cover-up by US and UK military of a friendly fire incident in 2003 in which two American A-10 aircraft of the Idaho National Guard repeatedly attacked a British military convoy (despite its carrying clear identification), killing the commander of one of the AFVs and a number of Iraqis, and injuring several other British military personnel. You’ll find details of the story at http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,,2007458,00.html and on many other UK press websites. The Pentagon, after flatly refusing requests for the cockpit tapes for four years, was shamed into releasing them to the Oxford Coroner (who is conducting an inquest into the death of the British NCO) by a leak to one of the mass-circulation papers in the UK.

$750 billion. I feel this latest political grandstanding by the current administration is just another last ditch effort to rally America into its investment in the war. I recall most lame ducks try to past some outrageous budget before they leave. But Duane, as a journalist, I face the continued saga of neglect of the Gulf coast and New Orleans. I don’t even live near the coast but after visiting November 2006, I have returned twice and will be returning again in March, to continue to keep the story alive. The poor, the elderly, the burn-out professionals, the neighborhoods, the small businesses, the children are still in crisis. Can you imagine what kind of recovery could have been accomplished with $750 billion dollars in relief and rebuilding?

Even at 33%, Defense spending is STILL below the levels of the Cold War (and we are in a REAL war now) Instead of cutting the funds in the war against Fanatical Islam, why not limit the amount of TAXPAYER money Federal Judges funnel to the ACLU. John E. Jones got the ACLU 1 million dollars in taxpayer money in the Dover case (he tried to get them 2 million)

Even at 33%, Defense spending is STILL below the levels of the Cold War (and we are in a REAL war now) What “real” war is that? Iraq? That’s an invasion! Afganisthan? We Canadians and others were stupid enough to take that one on! Terror? There are more terrorists being bred everyday than defeated! Drugs? That’s going well! Look at your record. You haven’t won a “war” for quite some time now. Maybe before it goes broke America should refocus. How about changing the language first. How about being less militaristic and starting an “empowerment” or “rebuilding” or “hope project” in places like New Orleans, etc. etc.

John, Do you think it was a mistake to go into Afghanistan initially or that it was a mistake to divert the major effort that began there in order to invade Iraq?

Duane, If only the president had not listened to those who advocated invading Iraq and instead had waited until the search for weapons had been completed.

Pro-choice promoters advocate and support the use a demonic destructive suction tube too. Just watch one abortion you incredible hypocrites on the Left!!!More human beings have been killed by that method of torture and murder than have ever died in our military “wars” against evil dictators. If you are a Progressive, look in the mirror for the face of a killer.

Duane, Are you aware that domestic spending has risen under Bush at a more rapid rate than under any president since LBJ? I’ve pointed this out several times on this blog because I think it’s worth mentioning. What have you to say of this?

I was once an unborn too, I think you are violating the rules of conduct… you ignored the prohibition against personal attacks which was provided on the link just below the box in which you posted your comment.

“I was once an unborn too” Presume the opposite of a “killer” is one who “enhances life”. What exactly have you done to enhance someone’s life that makes you superior and worthy to judge others?Or are you just a troll whose mission it is to disrupt and shoot down discussions? But there is a connection, even though some people will bring up abortion if you’re just talking about the price of potatoes. It’s this — if it’s wrong to abort a fetus, isn’t it at least equally wrong to go to someone else’s country and blow up people? If we spent our national treasury on those programs that demonstrably help people, wouldn’t that be more Christlike than spending it on destroying others? And one can imagine that Muslims might even flock to Christianity if we really behaved more like Christ and less like Attilla the Hun.

c kitty, Not like Attila the Hun, we are acting like Muhammad the Muslim. He used war to setup governmets too, did he not? Mr. Hayse, I apologize for offending your delicate sensitivities. I’m glad that you were allowed to be born.You do not see the hypocrisy of the Left in screaming about war, while the have been comlicit in the murders of tens of millions of unborn human beings?So, if we don’t have to look at the killing in Iraq, can we go ahead and let it go on? Umm, you don’t see the hypocrisy?

I was once unborn, You are way off topic. Forget every thing else, there is nothing in this post about abortion! Wow, I like the passion (don’t agree with your view), but the passion is good. Just a bit misdirected in the case of this blog entry. I digress, Duane is right! I am sure we would differ on many views, however his point is welldelivered. I had forgotten all about that speech. Thanks for reminding, and the tie in with Vietnam. c kitty, Great point! jesse, what items are we spending on? Pork barrel is the most of it. The right is still proud of cutting welfare. Yes I said cutting, not reform as they like to say. Reform would have been great, they just cut it and called it reform. And the point of John should resonate with all of us Americans. We found out a couple days ago, the gov’t somehow lost $12 billion (with a B). In Iraq. Yes, we did the right thing in Afghanistan. Iraq, NO WAY! It horrifies me to think we pre-emptively went into a country and tore it to pieces. We didn’t invade before 9/11. We knew then Saddam was paying for suicide bombers in Israel, yet we did nothing. Sharon and others, that $12 Billion could have done wonders anywhere in this country, especially New Orleans. We have’t been focused in this country in awhile. Point well taken John.

once unborn, And yet there is no hypocrisy in accepting the deaths of innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan as practically necessary while decrying abortions?I believe the Left is hypocritical on abortion, but I think you can manage little more integrityand humility than what you are offering here.

jesse, Bush’s spending increase on social programs, as far as I remember, is largely linked to the Medicare part D coverage that does not allow Medicare to negotiate discounts. I like the sentiment but not the details.

tinks, jesse, My main concern in cutting social programs is that the cuts are largely driven by ideology rather than an honest look at results, and in the case of results-oriented decisions no alternative is offered for the social ill the program was meant to address. Case in point, Republicans cut prenatal care from Medicaid in order to fund Bush tax cuts. Access to proper care was important for the fetus headed for live birth and a major factor in the decision to have a baby instead of an abortion. Republicans incentivized abortion for poor people. This is hardly a one-shot deal. The Gingrich congresses tried to cap welfare benefits for a certain number of kids, making it harder to care for a new child and incentivizing abortion. They refused to let the Federal health plans cover birth control pills, causing more unwanted pregnancies and incentivizing abortion. All this in the ideological interest of smaller government. I do not know what programs were cut, but I do think we must be very careful in wielding an anti-social prgram ideology.

In Canada, it always amazes me that whenever there is talk about poverty they government says we can’t do anything because of the deficit. But when it comes to declaring war the deficit is never mentioned. Marilyn

Marilyn, Good point!Thought you might be interested in this…. I recently read an argument from Barack Obama that I had not heard before – that when deficits and debt are concerned we only want to finance investments that will yield returns. Using debt to finance education that will lead to higher incomes and higher GDP makes sense because it will naturally increase the capacity of a nation to pay off that debt. But wars don’t really have an economic return (the Treaty of Versailles withstanding) that can be readily identified – therefore they ought to be covered by tax increases or at least no tax cuts.

It is true that the left is hypocritiacl on abortion for convenience. The Right should also extend pro-life feelings about Iraqi’s. But then again, if you think about it, what President Bush did was pro-life for those Iraqi’s that were being slaughtered by Saddam’s guys. Really the Left is coming off as being a bit cowardly as well as possibly hypocritical. It would be better if the Liberals were more like the Conservatives on the war issue. If I were a soldier fighting in Iraq, I would feel like Democrats were not suppoting me.

Stephen, It’s difficult to make a distinction between the war as an abstract concept – with which I disagreed and still disagree – and the war as it actually is, i.e. the troops on the ground and under fire. I want us to take care of those brave souls and I appreciate their willingness to fight for us when we ask them too. On the other hand, the folks in the trenches do not have the luxury of criticizing and second guessing the leaders who make decisions about war. As citizens, we need to be able to critically review and hold accountable the leadership making those decisions so that our warrior class is not being sent into a hornets nest unnecessarily, without strategy, etc. I realize that is a tough distinction to hold, and many soldiers would scoff at the suggestion of a difference. As Ollie North said, if the President asked him to stand on his head in a corner he’d do so and never ask why. Former US Senator Jeremiah Denton spent 8 years as a POW in Vietnam. When the VC put him on TV they asked him whether he supported the US policy toward Vietnam. he replied that he had no idea what the policy was now, but he supported it and new it was right! I can’t ask people in such traumatic circumstances to think of it differently. And it’s very hard to assert to someone like this that we should, in fact, distinguish between right and wrong, taht our nation is capable of mistakes – mainly because my right to make this assertion comes from their actions, which were made possible largely by their conviction that we aren’t mistaken! Nonetheless, a democracy must be accountable. Sodliers need citizens looking out for them. When John McCain was on the Tonight Show sitting next to David Crosby, Crosby turned to him and said, and I paraphrase, “I know that you thought and maybe you still think that we war protestors abandoned you and reviled you even while you were being tortured. But what I was fighting for was precisely to bring you home.” That’s a tough conversation to have, but have it we must.

Sorry, I see now that my last post was riddled with serious errors. I hope it is still readable.

Daniel,You’ll get no argument from me that federal spending is hugely wasteful and ineffective. Furthermore, the very idea that tax cuts must be “funded” is, I believe, absurd, and leads to bad decisions such as the one you mentioned.I was surprised that Duane would allow as to how any social program could be considered a candidate for elimination. I was pleased to read that, since my impresssion of Jim Wallis’ position in particular has been “no cuts to any social programs, ever.” I’m all for targeting social spending where it could do the most good , but unfortunately these types of decisions are political and are by their nature contentious and therefore lead to less than optimal results. I think if Sojo could demonstrate their willingness to identify programs they consider wasteful, it would be of immense help. Just as only Nixon could go to China….

I was once unborn, You referred to those who uphold the legal right of a woman to have an abortion as “killers”. My point is that you can’t do that… you can’t attack others personally… and be acting consistently with the rules of conduct. That’s different from telling us that you think it is immoral to allow the laws of the US to allow abortions to occur. That’s the difference.

I’m getting the message that this is a duplicate post… maybe this will fix that… Daniel, and the many other supporters of the values in “God’s Politics” who have posted messages on this blog, I wish there were a way we could communicate off-group… as would be the case if this were a Yahoo! group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Supporters_of_Gods_Politics_Values/ is a place where we could do that. Please consider it.

Editorial: Defense spending in perspective Washington Times 02/05/2007 (Copyright 2006) (There was an introductory discussion) We have reviewed the spending trends among these super-functions over the past 50 years, consolidated and averaged the super-function spending patterns for four-year cycles that approximate presidential terms and examined the trends in super-function spending as both a percent of the federal budget and a percent of GDP. Here are our findings: For the 1958-1961 peacetime budget period (President Eisenhower’s second term), defense spending averaged 53 percent of budget outlays and 10 percent of GDP. Spending on human resources averaged 28 percent of budget outlays and 5 percent of GDP. During the 1966-69 wartime budget period (President Johnson’s term), military spending commanded 45 percent of the budget and 9 percent of GDP. Human-resource spending climbed to 34 percent of outlays and 7 percent of GDP. For the 1974-77 peacetime period (the Nixon/Ford term), defense spending declined to 26 percent of budget outlays, while spending on human resources soared to 53 percent. During the 1982-85 period, which included the Reagan military buildup, defense spending still averaged only 26 percent of outlays. Human-resource spending totaled 51 percent. By President Clinton’s second term (the 1998-2001 budget period), human-resource spending (63 percent of outlays and 12 percent of GDP) was about four times the level of defense spending (16 percent of outlays and 3 percent of GDP). During the four years after September 11 (the 2002-05 budget period), defense spending only increased to 19 percent of outlays and 3.8 percent of GDP, while human-resource spending continued its ascent, averaging 65 percent of outlays and 13 percent of GDP. These trends demonstrate that defense spending has not been a major source of the fiscal problem confronting America during much of the past four decades.

For some reason, I could not type my comments in on the editorial. What I wanted to say is that our Republic/Democracy is in grave danger because the people have discovered that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. As Pogo said, “We has met the enemy and he is us.” There is something seriously wrong with our culture when the enormous sums now going to social programs don’t materially improve the situation. It seems to me that many here who are anti-war talk about the enormous sums spent as if spending them on their programs instead would cure all our ills. I doubt it very much because we are already spending 3.5 TIMES all that is spent on the military on such programs. If that doesn’t stun you, it does me. I have no answers, just serious concerns that we keep ALL the data in front of us when discussing such subjects. My personal position has been (before the war) that Iraq is/was a huge mistake. We needed to get bin Laden and Co. in Afghanistan and then help that country to get back on its feet. Iraq took our eyes off the real ball (radical Islamic terrorism), weakened our military, drained our treasury and created significant havoc in the Muslim world. We will be paying for that stupidity for generations.

Mike, Okeedoke, I joined the new group! I don’t know to what extent I will be able to keep up there, but with my membership I think you should be able to see my email address – please feel free to use it any time!

Daniel, Thanks. Mike

Mike, I just signed up also.

I thought the “Demonic Destructive Suction Tube” refers to the suction tube that removes the brain of unborn babies before they have the right sometimes seconds to breath of life. to my surprissed it is not what I expect… I am a pro-life Luis

Mike Huckabee of Arkansas who is a candidate for the Republican nomination for president in 2008 appeared on “This Week” today and speaks of the need for communication by the US government with moderate Muslims to counter the influence of radical Muslims. He also supports reverence for life after a child is born… assistance to women who need help because they are not getting adequate support by the male who impregnated them, for example… And… he has a great sense of humor!

I saw that, and I liked Huckabee – especially how gracious he was toward Hillary. I also liked what I saw of Sam Brownback despite his far right platform.

Luis, I hear you, but we have to care for the life of a mother as well. Intact D&E is primarily used for cases where the baby will almost certainly die and delivery or c-section will almost certainly kill the mother. Democrats have in the past opposed the ban because they can’t get an exception for the mother’s life and health – Republicans have been unwilling to allow a health-of-the-mother exception because it is too subjective. But no one believes it is a good thing or that it should be allowed for a healthy baby or pregnancy, or a risky one where the outcome is far from certain.