What does this have to do with Christianity and values? You don’t like Alan Dershowitz (though you address precisely none of his concerns with Carter’s now-notorious book). And yes, when you start talking about dark influential cabals of secretive Jews who run things out of New York City, you veer into anti-Semitic territory. When you chide Elie Wiesel for being silent w/r/t human rights abuse, well, that’s something anyway.

Kevin, Why in the world would you expect Christian ethics to be silent about Zionism but not a troop surge in Iraq? Is this an inconvienent topic for you? I recently saw a panel discussion that touched on Carter’s book and claims of anti-semitism. Zbigniew Brzezinski noted that his father helped Jews escape the Nazi regime and that he was a long-time Jewish symathizer and went on to say that making claims of anti-semitism against Carter’s expressed fears and hopes over Israel here trivializes the very concept of anti-Semitism. Madeleine Albright agreed and went on to talk at length about the novelty of Camp David I and how realistic Carter is in his view of the situation – that his pointing to the faults of Israel are objective normative claims and can’t be dismissed by classifying them as racial insults. His credibility on the issue establishes a fundamental barrier to such intellectual trickery. I might also note that turncoat liberal Christopher Hitchens’ raging support of the Iraq war has rendered him a darling of the Right, who routinely ignore the fact that he wrote a boko all about how Palestinians are the victims in this scenario and that America is aligned with Zionist interests, “blaming the victims.” Such equivocation basically guts the ability to dodge intellectual challenges without sacrificing solid ground. So it seems to me that “antic-semitic” is to neo-conservatives as “racist is to die hard liberals. It comes out at the outrageous suggestion that a given ethnic group ought to abide by universal moral norms.

“Why in the world would you expect Christian ethics to be silent about Zionism but not a troop surge in Iraq? Is this an inconvienent topic for you?” No, but Jeff Halper isn’t a Christian, isn’t applying Christian principles, or discussing how to related Christ’s teaching to the situation. His principle credential for posting here is support for the absurd idea that Israel is executing a policy of apartheid. The line between opposing Israeli policy and being anti-Semitic is a tricky one. But an utter unwillingness to see Israel as anything other than an occupying aggressor in this situation (which is part and parcel of thie apartheid theme) speaks to a certain amount of prejudice.

Kevin, Color me ignorant. Please explain what that prejudice is.p

Throwing words around like apartheid, anti-Semitism, Zionism interferes with examining the details.About 60 years and little has changed, are we looking at the problem through the wrong lens.

Jonah Glodberg had a similar column in today’s edition of the Tribune-Review. He was highly sritical of the statements made Wesley Clark suggesting it is the Jewish Lobby that is pressing for War against Iran.

The amount of money spent to arm Israel could have gone directly to Palestine to build schools, infra structure, enterprise zones and they would be so rich they wouldn’t want to bomb anyone. Of course there would be less for war machine manufacturers, etc. I’ve always wondered how this piece fits in? Who’s lobbyist would be gored if we looked at this question carfully?

Kevin– The concerns expressed by Jeff Halper reflect principles that are not only Christian, but universal. Is it anti-semetic to insist that Israel not treat Palestinians the way the Nazis treated Jews? Or the way white South Africans treated Black South Africans? Or the way Sunnis treat Shi’ites and vice versa? The point is that Israelis are no more excused from consistent moral norms than anybody else.It is not antisemitic to be critical of Israel’s practices and policies toward Palestinians any more than it is un-American to suggest that the war in Iraq is wrong.

I spoke to a high ranking Saudi who told me that the US must keep Iran from getting the bomb because Iran would use it against Sunni/Saudi.

Don’t quote me on this number but I think we give Israel 7 billion in aid each year. If we spent 1/2 of this amount to build schools, roads, support business and agricultural businesses in Palestine where would we be? Try throwing 3.5 billion out of the back of trucks on the streets of Palestine and see if they would unstrap the bombs long enough to pick it up and spend it. Israel would build trams to haul Palestinian shoppers to shops inside whatever you think the proper borders are. Can t help but think our money is being miss-spent. If you like to follow the money then how is our massive aid spent. So I have simplistic views, for 60 years really smart people haven’t found lasting answers.

Kris, Jonah Goldberg is incredibly intelligent, but I’ve found that neo-cons are, in general, quick to come to Israel’s defense no matter how outlandish their actions or how reasonable the criticism. I can’t find any common ground with Jonah, David Frum, David Horowitz, Bill Kristol, etc. The more I see them berate Israel’s critics, the more I think their critics probably have a good point, and I say this even though I am mostly supportive of Israel’s actions. Pat Buchanan’s arguments with David Frum are a good case in point. Buchanan, whom I disagree with almost across the board, is certainly no slouch. He’s marshalling evidence and making claims and pointingt i history and alternatives, etc. Frum says “anti-semite” and supposedly wins the debate. I’ve found this to be typical of neo-con encounters on Israel. Ragardless, Tikkun has given hardlinersa nd Zionists a soapbox along with all other experts and concerned parties – and yet I know of no such place being offered in return by the hardliners.

I thought Jimmy Carter’s book was well balanced between considerations of the insecuity of Israeli citizens on the one hand and the intolerable restrictions affecting Palestinians on the other hand. “Blood Brothers” by Elias Chacour was a great insight into the hopes for peace by ordinary Israelis and ordinary Palestinians.

Kevin, …utter unwillingness to see Israel as anything other than an occupying aggressor in this situation (which is part and parcel of thie apartheid theme) speaks to a certain amount of prejudice. As I understand it, Israel is by definition an occupying force.I’m not sure where the gap is in seeing it this way. Do you understand the history differently, define “occupation” differently, or are you aware of different facts than I have seen? [Or all three?]

“As I understand it, Israel is by definition an occupying force. ” By this standard, then, every country is an occupying force. But then the term loses all meaning. The implication that Israel unfairly took land from an exisitng entity is a canard. It is also the underlying presumption of the anti-Israeli set.

Kevin, “The implication that Israel unfairly took land from an existing entity” Doesn’t matter what term or way of looking at it, Palestine must be bought off their argument. Retribution, you find the term the land was taken and a settlement with the Palestinians must be found and money is a powerful negotiating tool. For 60 years guns have not resolved the differences.

Kevin Halper’s argument is very precise, logical and focused. There is no mention of anything that could be construed as”dark influential cabals of secretive Jews who run things out of New York City”. He is simply saying people should be as free to criticize the policies of Israel or the questionable influences of pro- Israel lobbyists, as we are to criticize the policies of our own government. And critics should be able to do so without being labeled anti-semitic. Perhaps you would care to take on his actual argument rather than presume to decide whether he has the proper credentials to be published by the people who run this blog. You may have noticed that Jim is taking no more of your advice on who and what to publish on his blog than you would to anyone who tried to tell you what was ok on yours. I frequently hear radio commentators and read columnists who characterize Palestians with no distinctions as suicide bombers and terrorists intent on the destruction of Israel. Oddly the writers or radio speakers are never attacked as being anti-semitic despite the fact that Palestinians, Arabs, and Iraqis are all semitic peoples with semitic languages.Carter uses a provocative word to describe the illegal( according to the U.N. charter disallowing acqisition of land through war)occupation of the part of Palestine never legally granted to Israel. He does so because American debate has been one-sided. The question is whether he makes the case for the use of this word, which has been used by many Israelis also.I found during my time among the evangelicals that the ideas on this topic(which at the time I shared) made no effort at all to see things from the Palestinian point of view. My attitudes began to change in the late 90′s because of the all too frequent occasions of Israeli violence against civilians appearing in the news. In 2000 I got 12 books out of the local College library from Israeli, Palestinian and attempted neutral positions. My first reaction was one of extreme anger about the false picture I had been given by American Media and the American Protestant Churches.

Kevin Israel was much less of an “existing entity” after WW2 than Palestine. Many homes in Palestine and a great deal of land with clear legal title has been stolen by “Jewish Zionists” both before and after Israel was an “existing entity”. Would you like to define “canard” for us? Is Halper anti-Israeli?The most reasonable and widely acceptable option is a return to pre 67 boundaries. Are the Israelis who support this anti-Israeli?

“The most reasonable and widely acceptable option is a return to pre 67 boundaries. Are the Israelis who support this anti-Israeli?” No, but we are naive if we believe that this will appease the Palestinians. One need look no further than their own civil war to understand that peace is not at the forefront of their agenda.”Halper’s argument is very precise, logical and focused. There is no mention of anything that could be construed as”dark influential cabals of secretive Jews who run things out of New York City”.” No, but that was clearly the undercurrent of Wesley Clark’s comments. Perhaps Halper would like to take the time right now to disagree with those statements.

Kevin: No, but we are naive if we believe that this will appease the Palestinians. One need look no further than their own civil war to understand that peace is not at the forefront of their agenda. That would be a fair assessment if one did not look at the people there. The average person doesn’t want this “civil war.” There are two parties vying for power politically while alienating the general populace.p

Why does Halper need to defend Clark’s words. 4now, you are doing what I think must be done; look at the situation, region, whatever through different lens or we stay on this course of 60 years of conflict without a resolution in site. And, stand around throwing about words like anti-Semites with no end game. I say cut and run!

Pay “There are two parties vying for power politically while alienating the general populace.” When and where has it been different, except Iraq where there are 3 or more parties vying for power with us in the center? At 66 I’ll not be here to see this fight going on for 60 years with outside powers funding the fight on the various sides. And BTW all sides invoking God to bless their struggle, if only everyone would recognize that there is only one God and he is on our side.

When I hear ‘Zionism’ I hear ‘nationalism’ which is currently the scourge of the earth. ‘Exceptionalisms’ of all sorts always lead to injustice. Why can’t we be patriotic about principles such as truth and justice rather than nation-worship?

Pay, just occured to me, are we a party vying for power in the region alienating the general populace?

Thank you Mike Hayes for mentioning Father Elias Chachour’s book “Blood Brothers”. He has also written “We Belong to the Land”. Both books tell his story of growing up a Melkite Catholic Palestinian in Israel and the experiences of our Christian brothers ande sisters in the Holy Lands. If anyone is really interested in first hand accounts of the mistreatment Palestinians- Chrisitans and Muslims experience at the hands of the Isreali government and military these books are the place to start.

CRP, America “Love It or Leave It”. Where did you get crazy ideas like “truth” and “justice”, peace will soon creep into your vocabulary.

“Why does Halper need to defend Clark’s words.” Because they are indicative of the latent anti-Semitism that he claims does not exist.

Butch, Are you being sarcastic? honest? cynical?

Butch, We have power, we choose not to fully use it but we could take over the country again. We could not control it but are smart enough not to. So the truth is we have power. p

Are you being sarcastic? honest? cynical? CRP | 02.05.07 – 4:42 pm | #Some of all 3, I’m a poor man’s Molly Ivins. When one looks back at our words or thoughts from a different paradigm it looks different.

Kevin S., First you presume to speak for Jews, then for Israelis, then for Palestinians. Either you are a mind-reader or you are behaving in a rather arrogant fashion. Having read your posts on previous issues, I would guess the latter Nevertheless, there is an enormous body of literature out there for anyone who is really interested in finding out what is going on in Israel. The Israeli news media are a good place to start. There is much more diversity of thought permitted there than in the United States. try http://www.haaretz.com http://gush-shalom.org http://www.btselem.org/index.asp http://www.israelblog.org/index.html http://www.tikkun.org Shalom!

An interesting parallel debate is happening on this side of “the Pond”, too. Those who find it difficult that the people who taught us pretty well all we know about justice, shalom and the God who implanted such notions in the human mind should behave in a way so far removed from those “ideals” (actually necessities if the human race is to survive more than the next half-century – but that’s probably another “canard”) may like to know about the “Independent Jewish Voices” website which has just been set up by a group of Jews in Britain. The address is http://www.ijv.org.uk Salaam and shalom.

Hali, ” There is much more diversity of thought permitted there than in the United States.” There is plenty of diversity permitted it just isn’t delivered because we listen to what is delivered! Clearly you want to be informed but we (US) do not. About 70% were for the war now 70% are against it. Who are these people listening to? America Love or Leave It.

“The line between opposing Israeli policy and being anti-Semitic is a tricky one.” This won’t wash. It is not anti-Semitic to oppose the policies of the Israeli government, just as it is not racist to oppose repressive policies of a black African government, or anti-Asian to oppose repressive policies of the Chinese government. The attempt to suppress alternative views by labeling them anti-Semitic when those expressing those views have no record of having any animus against Jews as Jews is rightly denounced. If the kinds of policies (those objected to by Halper) pursued by the Israeli government were pursued by any other government to which the U.S. government gives massive aid, there would be a great outcry from the American people. It is not anti-Semitic to apply the same standards to the Israeli government as to other governments. In fact, it is arguably anti-Semitic to in effect argue that Israelis can not be held to the same moral standards as anyone else.

“First you presume to speak for Jews, then for Israelis, then for Palestinians. Either you are a mind-reader or you are behaving in a rather arrogant fashion. Having read your posts on previous issues, I would guess the latter” I love how quickly disagreements turn into ad hominems on this board, particularly with this issue. I presume to speak for no-one, and it is not necessary to speak for anyone in order to have an opinion about this issue, and there is nothing arrogant about being of the opinion that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict does not constitute apartheid.

Kevin “His principle credential for posting here is support for the absurd idea that Israel is executing a policy of apartheid.” What are those credentials?

The following is a commentary on this subject by Rabbi Michael Lerner of Tikkun: There is no New Anti-Semitism by Rabbi Michael Lerner The N.Y. Times reported on January 31 about the most recent attempt by the American Jewish Community to conflate intense criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism. In a neat little example of slippery slope, the report on “Progressive Jewish Thought and the New Anti-Semitism” written by Alvin H. Rosenfeld moves from exposing the actual anti-Semitism of those who deny Israel’s right to exist and hence deny to the Jewish people the same right to national self-determination that they grant to every other people on the planet (the anti-war group International Answer is a good example of that, though Rosenfeld doesn’t cite them) to those who powerfully and consistently attack Israel’s policies toward Palestinians, see Israel as racist the way that it treats Israeli-Arabs (or even Sephardic Jews), or who analogize Israel’s policies to those of apartheid as instituted by South Africa.The Anti-Defamation League sponsored a conference on this same topic in San Francisco on Jan.28, conspicuously failing to invite Tikkun, Jewish Voices for Peace and Brit Tzedeck ve Shalom, the three major Jewish voices critiquing Israeli policy yet also strong supporters of Israel’s security.Meanwhile, the media has been abuzz with stories of Jews denouncing former President Jimmy Carter for his book Palestine: Peace or Apartheid. The same charges of anti-Semitism that have consistently been launched against anyone who criticizes Israeli policy is now being launched against the one American leader who managed to create a lasting (albeit cold) peace between Israel and a major Arab state (Egypt). Instead of seriously engaging with the issues raised (e.g. to what extent are Israel’s current policies similar to those of apartehid and to what extent are they not?) the Jewish establishment and media responds by attacking the people who raise these or any other critiques–shifting the discourse to the legitimacy of the messenger and thus avoiding the substance of the criticisms. Knowing this, many people become fearful that they too will be labeled “anti-Semitic” if they question the wisdom of Israeli policies or if they seek to organize politically to challenge those policies. Yet there is nothing “new” about this or about this alleged anti-Semitism that these mainstream Jewish voices seek to reveal. From the moment I started Tikkun Magazine twenty years ago as “the liberal alternative to Commentary and the voices of Jewish conservatism and spiritual deadness in the organized Jewish community” our magazine has been attacked in much of the organized Jewish community as “self-hating Jews” (though our editorial advisory board contains some of the most creative Jewish theologians, rabbis, Israeli peace activist and committed fighters for social justice). The reason? We believe that Israeli policy toward Palestinians, manifested most dramatically in the Occupation of the West Bank for what will soon be forty years and in the refusal of Israel to take any moral responsibility for its part in the creation of the Arab refugee problem, is immoral, irrational, self-destructive, a violation of the highest values of the Jewish people, and a serious impediment to world peace.What the Jewish establishment organizations have done is to make invisible the strong roots in Judaism for a different kind of policy. The most frequently repeated injunction in Torah are variations of the following command: “Do not oppress the stranger (the ‘other’). Remember that you were strangers in the land of Egypt.” Instead, the Jewish establishment has turned Judaism into a cheer-leading religion for a particular national state that has a lot of Jews, but has seriously lost site of the Jewish values which early Zionists hoped would find realization there.The impact of the silencing of debate about Israeli policy on Jewish life has been devastating. We at Tikkun are constantly encountering young Jews who say that they can no longer identify with their Jewishness, because they have been told that their own intuitive revulsion at watching the Israeli settlers with IDF support violate the human rights of Palestinian civilians in the West Bank or their own questioning of Israel’s right to occupy the West Bank are proof that they are “self-hating Jews.” The Jewish world is driving away its own young.But the most destructive impact of this new Jewish Political Correctness is on American foreign policy debates. We at Tikkun have been involved in trying to create a liberal alternative to AIPAC and the other Israel-can-do-no-wrong voices in American politics. When we talk to Congressional representatives who are liberal or even extremely progressive on every other issue, they tell us privately that they are afraid to speak out about the way Israeli policies are destructive to the best interests of the United States or the best interests of world peace lest they too be labeled anti-Semitic and anti-Israel. If it can happen to Jimmy Carter, some of them told me recently, a man with impeccable moral credentials, then no one is really politically safe.When this bubble of repression of dialogue explodes into open resentment at the way Jewish Political correctness has been imposed, it may really yield a “new” anti-Semitism. To prevent that, the voices of dissent on Israeli policy must be given the same national exposure in the media and American politics that the voices of the Jewish establishment have been given. We hope that the creation of our INTEFAITH Network of Spiritual Progressives (NSP at http://www.spiritualprogressives.org) can provide a safe context for this kind of discussion among the many Christians, Muslims, Unitarians, Hindus, Buddhists and secular-but-not-religious people who share some of the criticisms of Israel and who will eventually try to challenge the kind of anti-Semitism that might be released against Jews once the resentment about Jewish Political Correctness on Israel does explode. Even better if we could succeed in creating a powerful alternative to AIPAC. Unfortunately, that path is not so easy. When we approached some of the Israel peace groups to form an alliance with us to build the alternative to AIPAC we found that the hold of the Jewish Establishment was so powerful that it had managed to seep into the brains of people in organizations like Americans for Peace Now (NOT the Israeli group Peace Now which has been very courageous), Brit Tzedeck ve’Shalom and the Israel Policy Forum or the Religious Action Center of the Reform movement–and as a result these peace voices are continually fearful that they will be “discredited” if they align with each other and with us to create this alternative to AIPAC. Meanwhile, while they look over their right shoulders fearfully, the very people that they fear will “discredit” them for aligning with each other and with us are ALREADY discrediting them as much as they possibly can. Rabbi Michael Lerner is editor of Tikkun (www.tikkun.org), author of the 2006 NY Times best-seller The Left Hand of God (Harper San Francisco), and national chair of the Network of Spiritual Progressives (www.spiritualprogressives.org). P.S. Jesus was a liberal Jew.

I’m not going to say that all or most criticism of Israel is motivated by antisemitism, and much as I disagree with Jeff Halper, I am not accusing him of that here. My first impression (I reserve the right to change my mind about this) is that the AJC article that started this whole thing off was not constructive. BUT It has to be said that there are strong currents of antisemitism out there. Radical Islamists, both Sunni and Shia, definitely hold Jews in contempt and in the process they have threatened Israel and given aid to radical Palestinian groups, who themselves are not free of antisemitism. I won’t say there are antisemites in your midst, but they are out there, and they read what we say with keen interest. We ought to be careful not to fan those fires if we can help it. Critics of Israel need to keep that in mind. The speculation that a well-meaning westerner adds to his op-ed could tomorrow become the basis of a wild conspiracy theory printed in an Iranian government paper the next day, and a week later could goad some misguided Palestinian youth into a suicide bombing. It’s not fair, but there you have it. I’m not saying don’t criticize Israel, but I am saying choose your words carefully, and don’t make charges you can’t back up.

Oh, anonymous at 7:50? That was me. Wolverine

Hali, Thanks for the post of the article by Rabbi Michael Lerner. From what I have seen of his writing and the Tikkun organization and the spiritual progressives group I thought he would be among those who urge Israel to try harder to find a way to end the violence between Israel and Palestine, and your post helped make that case.

As usual, anything less than unlimited and unquestioning support for Israel and it’s occupation of Palestine is met with the charges of anti-Semitism. As the Jews are the offended party, I have to some degree accept their definition. But if they want to define anti-Semitism in this manner, do not be surprised if the rest of the world then by their own definition decides that Israeli occupation of Palestine is the problem, but Jews are the problem. Kim Margosein

This isn’t just the usual deadly nonsense about anti-semitism, it’s convoluted deadly nonsense. Sojo is publishing commentary by Jeff Halper about Matthew Yglesisas’s comments about a NY Times article commenting on an essay by David Harris of the AJC. Sojo posters respond by criticizing people who criticized Jimmy Carters book, which compares Israel to aparthied South Africa and in the meantimwe throwing out additional canrds, making upfalse claims about the Israeli occupation of territory used to launch repeated assaults and wars for some 60 years and its “illegality” What is the tie that binds all this together-? The basic canard of the new Anti-semitism– pretending that people are being accused of anti-Semitism simply for criticizing Israel. The claim is simply false. So what is Halper’s contribution?: In terms of the obsessive vehemence with which the so-called leaders of the organized Jewish community attempt to stifle any and all critical views on Israel and its policies towards the Palestinians, I would argue that American Judaism is in danger of being turned into a cult. One exclusive idea Israel as a Jewish state has superseded all other Jewish values and views. Opinion on Israel must conform to an official position enforced by self-appointed gatekeepers, none of whom have been elected as official representatives of the politically diverse Jewish community, as far as I know. Sheer, utter, fabricated nonsense. Anyone who diverges from the party line is derided, ostracized, and even threatened by the gatekeepers. Listen to one Shulamit Reinharz, director of the Women s Studies Research Center at Brandeis, who said in the wake of Jimmy Carter s visit to campus to discuss Israeli apartheid: Ok. Let’s listen. Let all Jews who are truly progressive, liberal, not self-hating and not anti-Zionist develop a clear set of ideas to address these individuals specifically. Let organizations that fight anti-Semitism have special divisions to combat Jewish anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. I don’t care what Halper or anyone thinks about Shulamit Reinharz. But anyone who thinks that quote demonstrated derision and ostracision- even “threats”– by “gatekeepers” is way past rational argument. What is Halper’s conclusion–Remember when ten Jews had eleven different opinions? Well, we ve reached a state where ten Jews are only allowed one official opinion. Really? How did Halper manage to overcome all the ostracision, derision, threats, avoid the gatekeepers, and not only manage to have a “non-official” opinion, but even manage to get it published.? Sheer, utter, fabricated nonsense. Why on earth is Sojo involved in perpetuating this hoax and giving support to false claims and false witness?

“But if they want to define anti-Semitism in this manner, do not be surprised if the rest of the world then by their own definition decides that Israeli occupation of Palestine is the problem, but Jews are the problem.” The rest of the world will likely come to this conclusion without the help of those who conflate opposition to Israeli policy with anti-Semitism. There are significant swaths of the world population who believe that the Jews are the problem.To the extent that we thoughtlessly embrace Arab propoganda, and the Palestinian account of history without even giving second thought to the plight of Israeli’s in that region, we lend credibility to the idea that everything can be blamed on the Jews. To say that some opposition to Israel is fueled by anti-Semitism isn’t to say that all of it is. History teaches that we should be cautious about how we assign blame to the Jewish people.

“”P.S. Jesus was a liberal Jew.” So is Alan Dershowitz

Hey Kevin the idea that the rest of the world is reading the comments on God’s politics in order to form opinions on Israel’s occupation of the west bank is even more of a stretch than the idea that Alan Deshowitz, who OKs torture, is a liberal.You finally made me laugh.Perhaps you could give us an example of someone who has thoughtlessly embraced arab propaganda on this thread, and what they said as a result?

Wolverine Why are you not concerned about misguided Israeli youths dropping bombs on Beirut and killing innocent people who have nothing to do with Hezbollah? Or shooting Palestinian children while pumped up on fear ,power, and the Uzi in their hand. No one on this blog supports suicide bombing , but the truth is the violence and displacement are seriously one sided. You seem to me to be applying the mythical mindset of the Old Testament to a situation in which New Testament peacemaking is called for. Jesus was a Palestinian born and raised in occupied territory.

Joseph seems to be applying the mindset of thinking that repeating allegations and fallacies constitutes an argument. Who told you Israeli soldiers were misguided? Who said they were pumped up on fear power and Uzis?If you’re really interested in innocent Palestinian youth, maybe you should look into what Palestinain youth are taught and express concern about pumping them up on fear and hatred and teaching them the same deadly nonsense you repeat. The number of Jews displaced by Arab governments is about the same as the number of Palestinians- the primary difference being Arab governments helped displace Palestinians by repeatedly launching attacks on Israel. Rome didn’t occupy Israel because several surrounding Jewish states kept attacking Rome, saying Romans descended from apes and pigs. Jesus didn’t tell his disciples that God would reward them with anything- let alone 72 virgins- for killing a Roman. He didn’t tell his followers that Rome had no right to exist and to drive Romans into the sea. And, no,he wasn’t a Palestinian. That’s ridiculous.

You have only two choices with the Jimmy Carterites and their zeal for Palestinians. Either they are completely stupid or criminally complicit in the terror forever pointed at and inflicted on Israel by Islam and European (and some Americans from the Left) hatred of all things Jewish. Palestinians have no desire to “share” anything with Israelis. Why do liberals and progressives even try to hide their true hatred of Israel, Jews, or any other peoples and cultures that have anything to do with a Biblical-flavored people? Israeli’s may be somewhat secular, but, their enemies both Muslim and Liberal-Progressive, are still hell-bent on their complete destruction. What needs to be illuminated “also” is the newest form a hatred, and that being the hatred for Christians. Look at Dershowitz in that camp. Something is really disturbed with the Liberal-Progressive mind.

Something is really disturbed with the Liberal-Progressive mind. Donny | 02.06.07 – 9:44 am | #Any label assigned or assumed for oneself interferes with critical thinking about specific issues. What limiting label do you carry?

Joseph T wrote: Why are you not concerned about misguided Israeli youths dropping bombs on Beirut and killing innocent people who have nothing to do with Hezbollah? Because, by any halfway reasonable reckoning, suicide bombers are far more likely to kill or maim innocent persons than soldiers in the IDF. Besides being wrong, suicide bombing is just stupid — unlike an IDF raid the suicide bomber’s chances of doing any damage to those responsible for the occupation are often virtually nil. No matter how bad tings are in the West Bank and Gaza, it doesn’t jusify such sheer stupidity. Wolverine Wolverine

Soldiers=armies=governments do far more maiming than indivduals or small groups. Governments have placed land mines all over the world to maim for decades. No more or less stupid!

Butch, Yes, but when the IDF launches a missile at a terrorist meeting place, they have a decent chance of killing an actual terrorist. When a suicide bomber blows himself up in a pizzeria, he kills pizza eaters. Maybe I missed it, but I don’t recall Palestine being overrun by Sbarro. Wolverine

Wolverine”collateral damage” also known as the taking of innocent lives happens when said missile hits a building where someone works, a kid is waiting for their father… Sorry but they don’t need to be attacked by Sbarro.The israeli military will do all of that w/o any help from any franchize. I recognize the position Israel is in but I also know that they don’t have to act the way they do to secure their land. As a matter of fact you will clearly noticed that did not work. p

Wolv you miss at least part of the point, no life is guilty or innocent and to kill a soldier in uniform or a child are all the same, they are dead. Their family has a hole in their heart for life.

I recognize the position Israel is in but I also know that they don’t have to act the way they do to secure their land. How do you know that? Wolv you miss at least part of the point, no life is guilty or innocent and to kill a soldier in uniform or a child are all the same, they are dead. Their family has a hole in their heart for life. No one is guilty or innocent? Killing soldiers and children is all the same? According to what?Not according to any civilization that ever existed, and not according to the Christian faith either. If families of suicide bombers have a hole in their heart, they need to work on their faith. They are supposed to be rejoicing.

Wolverine, Please read this blog. It talks eloquently about the accidental death of a child killed by the Israeli police. http://peacebe.blogspot.com/ p

Look, you’re all missing the point. I recognize that “collateral damage” frequently assiciated with military strikes means the death of innocents, which is tragic. But suicide bombing frequently is directed at civilians, in which case all the deaths, including the bomber, are collateral. At least IDF is going after its enemies. You may believe what they are doing is wrong but at least there’s some sort of logic behind it. The Palestinians are prone to lash out at random. This is bloody-mindedness compounded by mind-boggling stupidity. It’s one thing to kill for a purpose. It’s even worse to kill for no real purpose. Wolverine

Wolverine: It’s one thing to kill for a purpose. It’s even worse to kill for no real purpose. Do you realize how ignorant and foolish this sounds? They are killing for a purpose. The purpose is vengeance for their dead, being denied basic rights like water, denial of land, the belief that Israel should not exist… It can sometimes be construed as the irrational temper tantrum of a child but there is a logic behind it.They are deliberatly picking targets and choosing where they will die. That’s disgusting, wrong and stupid but no more stupid than Israel using guns to scare off people using rocks. p

“Not according to any civilization that ever existed, and not according to the Christian faith either.” You presume to know my faith which finds no reason to kill, I don’t have to go further than the 10 commandmants but if they didn’t exist killing would not be ok with me.

Pay let me make one correction to your point, change people to children. Soldiers shooting and killing rock throwing children, Wolv help me with the logic?

“It can sometimes be construed as the irrational temper tantrum of a child but there is a logic behind it. ” I do not think it is ignorant to say that irrational behavior is also illogical. You also failed to include anti-Semitism and a desire to please their God, which play heavily into their “reasoning”. It’s bananas, and it is not ignorant for me to say so.

Kevin No its just ignorant for you or any that say the same thing as Wolverine to say that they don’t have a purpose. They have a purpose. It may be nuts but it does make sense if one looks at how they have been treated and their deep hatred of themselves and their jewish neighbors. p

” their deep hatred of themselves”?????

“Not according to any civilization that ever existed, and not according to the Christian faith either.” You presume to know my faith which finds no reason to kill, I don’t have to go further than the 10 commandmants but if they didn’t exist killing would not be ok with me. No, Butch, I didn’t presume anything at all about your faith. I assume you live on earth, so I mentioned earthly civilizations. This discussion is at Sojournmers site, so mentioning that your statement is not supported in Christian scripture is relevant to the discussion. You presume to know something about the 10 commandments which is not true.They forbid murder- which is what suicide bombers and all terrorists commit- not soldiers in carrying out their lawful duties.

I don’t find anything about soldiers carrying out lawful orders in the 10 commandants! Which commandant was that? Many “earthly civilizations” have done to many things for me to list here at this time but “earthly civilization” often do things contrary to my christian faith. Yours may be different so you may approve of anything an “earthly civilization” does.

Butch As a member of an outgroup I used to internalize a lot of negative interactions and since I felt powerless to really change any of it I would hate myself.I make it a point to study outgroups in every culture that I come across and you will see this in all of them in some form or another whether that be the Wuigur in China, the blacks in South Africa, the untouchables in India, the Hmong in south east asia, the Irish a hundred years ago in this country or poor whites (aka known as white trash.) Each group finds a way to despise themselves in ways that defy logic. Cornel West does an amazing job describing this phenomona in his book Race Matters.Nihilism and self destructive tendencies are the issues here even more than what the Jews are or are not doing.Until there is a strong enough progressive group of Palestians leading a charge of non-violence nothing will really change in the region. p

Pay, Thanks, clear and understood. I do believe that it will change only following a change in Israel, maybe it should but I don’t think it can. Before I get jumped on, I’m not suggesting that Israel lay down and take anything but there are many in Israel now who are reaching out. It will require a little time to evolve or bubble to the surface. Like the civil rights question, law didn’t change the country overnight but it has changed and that is not to say more can be done. It is interesting to me at 66 that my 19 year old grandson has no understanding of black/white prejudice that I grew up with. I think I told you that I gave mine up at 16 when I experienced black prejudice against me a white boy, and then I understood the other side. One thing I hear in Israel/Palestinian discussions now is a lack of seeing the other side.

Butch,I said the 10 commandments forbid murder- not soldiers carrying put their lawful duty. The commandments is a list of commandments- not a list of what isn’t commanded– so your comment about not finding a mention of soldiers duties is pointless and doesn’t disguise what you actually did claim. It was you who said you “don’t need to go further than the 10 Commandments” in support of your ideas condemning all killing. You do.You need to go further than the 10 commandments, further than the whole of Judaism, and even further than the Christian faith to find support for your comments about “all killing” You are free to think anything you want- but you aren’t free to make up false claims. Talking about “many civilizations” doing things contrary to the Christian faith is also irrelevant to anything I said.The relevance is whether or not what you claim as consistent with the 10 Commandments and Christian faith is accurate, or merely your own unsupported opinion.

Butch, I have seldom seen a power group be willing to loose power to help someone less empowered. I make this point clearly looking at Jewish history in the last century. Finding a group that has been thru more (silly I know) is difficult.The indigenous nations of the America’s not withstanding the Jews learned either you smash your enemies completely or you open up yourselves to another holocaust.That doesn’t always work but try telling that to the ruling party. Then you have the Palestians that have been treated like garbage for over 30 years. Their struggle for justice, fairness, statehood and equal treatment mirrors what my people went thru. There are great examples of non-violence and peace that people can do to change their situation. Judging from Gandhi, the civil rights era and other peaceful movements the only hope is to find people w/n the outgroup that are willing to stand against Israeli injustice and act as a conscience to their own people. There needs to be a national movement where some can do better economically all the while serving and loving their enemies.Israel is a complex place where Arabs do live next to Jews. But there is so much fear and resentment on both sides that a lasting peace seems nearly impossible. p

Pay, I really do “feel” which means I can’t support the position with fact but I feel there are changes going on. This thing with Hezbola (sp) did not go well and did not play well in the world which has changed the dynamic in the area and in the worldview. In the past Israel suffered some form of attack then retalitated, no one changed sides and nothing changed but Lebanon was different. Only history will judge this prediction. Again like the dogs in Montgomery, Chief Bull Whatever wasn’t fired but things changed that day and those changes where not evident for some period of time. I saw it live or on the evening news got active that day.

“We don’t thrive on military acts. We do them because we have to, and thank God we are efficient.” “We have always said that in our war with the Arabs we had a secret weapon – no alternative.”"Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.” Golda Meir Where’s the aid for the Palestinians from the Arab world? Since 1993, Palestinians have received more than $1.7 billion in U.S. economic assistance via USAID projects – more than from any other donor country. How much from the Arabs? How much of that is in Arafat’s wife’s secret bank accounts? These people voted a terrorist organization to be their government. The Israelis built a wall and suicide bombings slowed. They then began to shoot rockets over the walls. But, keep blaming the Israelis for everything.http://www.usaid.gov/wbg/

Methinks the problem be the worship of the moon god allah more than the Jews. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks It seems that muslims are more dangerous to themselves than Israelis are. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/009-friends-with-christians-jews.htm

“No its just ignorant for you or any that say the same thing as Wolverine to say that they don’t have a purpose. ” Okay. The have a purpose. The purpose is bananas. They are fruitcakes. Israelis do not behave as they do. Any equivalency drawn is, therefore, equally bananas.

The truckloads of cash have been through Gaza and the West Bank. But instead of building those hospitals and schools, they chose Kalashnikovs and RPG’s, Qassam Rockets and Semtex. But again, that’s that’s Israel’s fault.http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/45198.pdf

Faster do any of these sites have a solution?

“Faster do any of these sites have a solution?” Not really. Is there one? Cut off funding. This may sound cruel, but tens of billions of dollars from the US and UN and other sources have flowed into an area where about 4 million people live. What good has it done? All they want is to kill Israelis. If Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia and Egypt really cared, they could totally feed, clothe and house every Palestinian. It is more important for them to keep the Palestenians stirred up because they too hate the Jews. We could too, but they keep buying guns instead of books and butter. I go to this site daily to see how they act. It’s not the RNC or Evangelical Christians chopping off heads and blowing up pizza parlors. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ These are news accounts that don’t get much air time in the US. They’ll show Abu-Graib and such forever, but not muslims acting like they are instructed in the quran. The hypocracy is amazing. Where are the civil rights activists when the buddhists are murdered in Indonesia? Where’s the outrage for those killed by muslims? No, save that for the Israelis and American “mercenary” military. But, we overlook that 607 were killed, 1341 that were injured this week by the followers of allah.

Kevin and others The Israeli government behaves just as crazy as any Palestian government does or have people forgot what Sharon did and the eye witness that exists that corroborate it. http://www.indictsharon.net/massacres-intro.shtml As for the funds that go the Palestians it rarely get’s to the people and contrary to the myth being propagated the Arab states do give aid. “Since April 2001, the Arab states transferred directly to the PA $45 million of aid per month,” http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2002/6/International%20Financial%20Aid%20to%20the%20Palestinian%20Aut Ofcourse there is a ton of corruption in the PLO. No one is disputing that. We can and should honestly talk about that too. But to excuse Israel’s hard handed approach to the situation and denial of land that can actually be used is wrong too. It’s hard to build up an infrastructure when Israel has control over most of the water. http://www.arij.org/pub/corissues/ There are plenty of Jewish people in the disputed areas that abuse their Palestian neighbors. The military do nothing to stop this. Maybe we should look at all the things that contribute to the pain of the Palestian people. p

R. Weinhagen said Butch,I said the 10 commandments forbid murder- not soldiers carrying put(sic) their lawful duty.So are you saying , R. that when the “soldiers” of Antiochus “carrying out their lawful duties” killed thousands of Jews in the streets of Jerusalem and killed a pig on the temple altar this was not murder and desecration? James says wars come from greed, pride and lust. The logic of this is that most wars are started as large scale criminal enterprises. A soldiers actions are only conscienable if thy are morally sound . this has noting to do with following orders as seen in Nazi atrocities, Pinchet atrocities etc. The example I gave of an Israeli soldier killing innocents was taken from several first hand accounts of Israeli soldiers.I posted these accounts on an ealier blog here. It happens. War brings out the worst in people, and allows us to dehumanize our enemies.Of course Jesus was a Palestinian, that being just one name for a region which has had many occupants.He was born in Bet Lehem in what is now in the Israeli occupied West Bank. At the time it was occupied by Roman Soldiers, who “carrying out their lawful duties” would line the roads of dissident areas with crucified resistors to the “pax Romana”.I recently listened to 3 women teel of their experieces living in this region, a Moslem from Gaza, a Jew from Israel, and a Christian from Bet Lehem. The Christian woman spke of seeing Israeli tanks bulldoze her family Oliveyards and garden,when she tlaked of what tis did to her grandfather she fought back tears, she showed us pictures of the wall running through her village.It is a monstrous desecration, like something from a Sci fi movie. She was desperate her life was being destroyed and she was not angry at her Moslem neighbors, and she was not angry at Judaism or all Jews, she was angry at the Israeli occupation. The Moslem woman was very articulate and told a joke to relieve the tension, she was in the middle of pursuing a higher education at an Israeli University which was interrupted by the border crossing problems and she had just found she might not be able to return home to Gaza through Israel. She appreciated her educational opportunity but told of some dreadful instances of children shot by Isaeli soldiers for stone throwing, of the arbitrariness of delays at the borders, of running through the sreets during a skirmish looking for her younger brothers.In the real world there are no national or religious lines where the good people end and the bad people start. I f you have such a measure of truth and grace that what you have is like water in a dry land then go forth my friends, heal the sick, raise the dead, bring hope to the poor. If all you have in looking at this conflict is demonizing anger for one side or the other, you may be part of the problem. It might be time time to come out of your mythical dreams of being on the “right ” side and touch the hurt and broken body of that child who is the end recipient of the methods you support. If you do not know whose image that child bears I feel sorry for you.

The Tragic Death of an Activist’s Daughter by Donald Macintyre in Anata, West Bank They lay on the school principal’s table, the relics of 10-year-old Abir Aramin’s last, fatal, journey: the black plastic shoulder bag containing the sixth-grade maths text book, cheerfully decorated with Sindy dolls, which she had taken for last-minute revision before her exam that morning; the bars of Cadbury’s Dairy Milk and Biskrem she had bought in the little grocery shop across the street when it was over. Sawsan Halwe, head of Anata Girls’ School, recalled how after what she said was a “big boom”, Abir had been carried, bleeding and unconscious, into a classroom. She tried to describe Abir in normal times: “She was lovely. Her teachers liked her, she had good grades. She was a very active student.” A memorial poster showing ten year old Palestinian Abir Aramin is seen on the door of the family home as relatives gather in the West Bank village of Anata, near Jerusalem, Saturday, Jan. 20, 2007. Hope is getting Abir’s father Bassam Aramin through the worst days of his life. The Palestinian peace activist is mourning his 10-year-old daughter, killed in a clash with Israeli border police this week, but is drawing strength from the embrace of his Israeli friends. Aramin, an ex-Fatah gunman, has been touring Israeli high schools with former Israeli soldiers to preach co-existence, and says his daughter’s death has only strengthened his belief that the conflict between the two peoples cannot be solved by force. (AP Photo/Kevin Frayer) But then Abir has an unusual father. Bassam Aramin, 39, had been an active Fatah militant in his youth, ready to kill for the Palestinian cause, and jailed for seven years for attempting to do so. Yet today he is energetic in Israeli-Palestinian dialogue and closely associated with the Peres Centre’s Jewish-Arab sports programmes. Last April, Mr Aramin helped to found “Combatants for Peace” – a unique organization of former Israeli soldiers and ex-Palestinian gunmen who have renounced violence and are devoted to the cause of ending the occupation by peaceful methods alone. A mere 10 months later, Mr Aramin has had his beliefs tested to the outer limit, by a grief he could never imagine. Yesterday at Jerusalem’s Al Aqsa Mosque he buried Abir, his younger daughter, killed by what he and every resident of Anata is convinced was fire at lethally close range – probably, they believe, a rubber-coated bullet from an Israeli border police jeep. Shortly after 9.10am on Tuesday, Abir, her sister and two friends, came out of the grocery store and started walking downhill along the street. At that point, said one of the girls, Abrar Abu Qweida, 12, an Israeli jeep came up the hill; further down the hill, she says she saw “three or four” boys throwing stones towards the vehicle. As the jeep passed them going up the hill, she says, she noticed what she says was a gun protruding from the rear window. Moments later, she says, a Ford Transit, of the sort frequently used in the West Bank for unlicensed passenger transport, came up the hill. Abrar explained: “Abir said: ‘Let’s get in the Ford.’ We were afraid from the jeep. But I said: ‘I haven’t any money.’ So she said: ‘OK, we don’t go.’” Abir’s fatal injury came moments later. As they faced down the hill, Abrar was holding Abir’s hand; Abir’s sister Arin, 11, was immediately behind her. “Arin lowered her head and so did I,” said Abrar, hunching her shoulders in a graphic demonstration of an instinctive reaction to an explosion. But Abir didn’t duck, and fell forward, said Abrar, adding: “I ran away. I ran into the school.” Arin, she says, fell to the ground from the shock, crying. Abrar says that the Ford Transit, the driver alerted by the sound of an explosion, returned immediately. “Two men jumped out and carried Abir into the school,” Abrar said. “I was crying all the time. I can’t study now. When [Abir] was doing her last exam she was sitting at the desk next to me.” After a formal complaint by the family, police have now launched an investigation by its internal affairs division. The police suggested this week that she might have been hit by a stone thrown by a Palestinian, and the initial findings of yesterday’s autopsy do not so far prove that she was shot. Abrar’s account is consistent with the massive fracture in the back of Abir’s skull, from which surgeons at the Hadassah Hospital fought to save her; with other eye-witness reports; and from the rubber bullet one boy testified to the Israeli human rights organization Yesh Din he had found where Abir fell. The Peres Centre’s Dr David Shanin, who visited doctors at the Hadassah with Mr Aramin as his daughter lay already clinically dead, is convinced her injuries were caused by a rubber bullet. He said: “The cause is obvious to anyone who doesn’t want to twist the truth.” In order to ensure his two sons were not caught up in the clashes while the separation barrier was being built through the middle of Anata last year, Mr Aramin had long moved his sons to a school in East Jerusalem. But he never imagined anything like this happening to his daughters. He added: “I do not want revenge. Revenge is against our principles. My revenge is to bring [the perpetrator] to court, to defend other children, and so that he will learn not to shoot in cold blood and that there is a price to be paid. This should be the same for Israelis and Palestinians.” Even if Abir were not shot, there remains the question of what the police were doing near the schools in Anata in the first place. The police say that they were there to protect “ongoing work” on the separation barrier. But residents – and the Yesh Din lawyer Michael Sfard, who is helping to represent the family – are all adamant the work stopped months ago when the barrier here was completed. Avichai Sharon, one of Mr Aramin’s Israeli ex-soldier friends, says: “A few months ago they did come to protect the bulldozers. But now there is nothing to protect. They are just there to cause a provocation. There is no other reason.” Mr Sfard, while saying that shooting with rubber bullets is a “reasonable” and “likely” explanation for Abir’s death, acknowledges that this cannot yet be proved. But he agrees that the Border Police’s, in his view, wholly unnecessary presence was the underlying cause and adds that it’s known the forces opened fire in the vicinity of the schools. “None of the public statements made by the [Israel Defence Forces] or the police suggests that they were under threat.” Mr Aramin said that his daughter’s death will not deter him from his work in the peace forums. “We have no choice but to continue to save more children from falling in this dirty conflict,” he said. And he adds gratefully that his Israeli ex-soldier friends in Combatants for Peace had shown unswerving solidarity with him since Tuesday. “They even left their jobs to be with me and that has helped to make me feel strong,” he said.

Hey, where’d everybody go?

Still here. p

Police sources said on Sunday that autopsy findings indicated Aramin could have been killed by concussion from a shock grenade or by a thrown rock. However, they said, the findings were inconsistent with her having been killed by a rubber bullet: No bullet wounds were found on her body, and the skull injury that caused her death was a large one, whereas rubber bullets, even if they do not penetrate, usually make small wounds. The autopsy was performed last Friday at the Institute of Forensic Medicine in Abu Kabir, with a pathologist hired by Aramin’s family in attendance. But while it demonstrated that Aramin was killed by a blunt object a conclusion with which the family’s pathologist concurs http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/816044.html “A soldiers actions are only conscienable if thy are morally sound .this has noting to do with following orders as seen in Nazi atrocities, Pinchet atrocities etc.” No kidding? So what do youi make of Palestinian terrorists carrying out orders of their religious leaders to kill Jews? How about the Hamas charter that seeks the destruction of any Israeli state on any territory anywhere in the Middle East? Are those morally sound orders? It might do more good to ponder that than to talk about Roman atrocities and platitudes about war and greed that you are only willing to see appliedto Jews- and then pretend they have anything to do with anything I said, let alone contradict it.Instead of posting them and helping spread demonizing propaganda, why not do some minmal research and condemn the false “news” stories that claim Israeli soldiers killed a child– when the autopsy suggest it was one more misguided Palestinian child throwing rocksat those his own society and religious leaders have demonozed? If all you have in looking at this conflict is demonizing anger for one side or the other, you may be part of the problem. And if all you have is demonizing propaganda about Jews and false witness claiming I demonized anyone, then I say it appears you would be part of the problem. Are you really concerned with Palestinian children who throw rocks at soldiers being killed? Do you really believe the propaganda posted here about Jews and Israeli soldiers?Then why not tell them not to throw rocks at armed soldiers that you seems so ready to believe are acting solely out of greed,power,lust, and all the seven deadly sins of mankind? Three anecdotes from people you talked to. So what? If someone posted a hundred documented facts that contradict your anecdotes, would you rethink anything at all or just redouble your efforts?

Question to the group: Please view this video of a drunken, irate Israeli (Jewish) settler trespassing on personal property: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e1842edc4f I say that his behavior is deplorable, and by inference anyone else who does so similarly. Does my judgment make me antisemitic or anti-Israel?

No CRP it doesn’t. p

“Please view this video of a drunken, irate Israeli (Jewish) settler trespassing on personal property:”Does my judgment [deploring drunken irate Israelis who trespass on personal property] make me antisemitic or anti-Israel?” No,it only causes a temporary distraction from any serious consideration of anti-Semitism.Dedicated anti-Semites will, nonetheless, try to make something out of it. Maybe photo-shop in some fake Israeli planes in the background bombing a children’s hospital and some tanks demolishing a faux mosque.

R. Weinhagan, How do you define anti-semitism?Do you think that Israel can be fair to their Palestian neighbors? p

R. Weinhagen I have not applied my opposition to killing civilians or following orders in wars of aggression only to Jews. You either can’t read, or are being deliberately deceptive. There have been many atrocities against Jews by Palestinians and we all know the history of Jewish suffering in European history, frequently by Christians. I deplore all these crimes. It can be very discouraging looking at human history. But it is in fact you who refuse to admit that Israeli Jews can, have and do also also commit crimes. And it is you who refuse to acknowledge that Palestinians have legitimate grievances against Israel.Men do not make peace with those they consider evil, peacemaking begins by seeing the humanity of our enemy.It is Jesus who taught men to turn from violence and be harmless as doves. You may call these platitudes if you wish, But what I taste in your words is a bitterness that will not allow you to see the humanity of the Palestinian people.

Oops. That was my post I wish this worked more consistently. Joseph T

I can read quite well.I say it is you that is either ignotant or willfuly deceptive. The only thing I have refused to admit about Israel is the validity of a false and persistant double standard.I never called any of Jesus words platitudes,. That doesn’t make me incapable of recogniuzing when they are treated as platitudes.If you believe your own words– Men do not make peace with those they consider evil, peacemaking begins by seeing the humanity of our enemy -then you would do better to act as if you meant them. You and anyone who wishes can post all the anecdotes you like, post links to hoaxes spread by the Western as well as the Arab press. Post all the false claims you like about UN resolutions that make the ocupation “illegal”Post sheer nonsense about Jesus being a Palestinian.Wail all you like about Israeli injustice, help spread falsehoods that criticism of Israel is called anti-Semitic. But there is one side and one side only in this conflict that has a government, a press, and religious institutions all dedicated to demonizing Jews.If you realy believe that men do not make peace with those they se as evil, then you know what needs to be done and who needs to change– if you have any real interest at all in peace or justice.

R. Weinhagen Perhaps you should read the “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited,1947-1949″ by Israeli historian Benny Morris. The research is based on Israeli records and shows that most Palestinians fled in 48 as a direct result of Jewish militant attacks in which in a few cases entire villages were massacred. Morris justifies this. But you do not even acknowledge it. The reason I posted the story of the Palestinian man whose daughter was killed or died was not to accuse but to point ou the humanity of a man dedicated to peace even when his heart was crushed. He never blamed anyone and accepted the report of the docors who examined his daughter, but even when it was first reported to be the result of fire from an IDF soldier he was determined to continue to work for peace. You seem unable to see the humanity or courage of this man or the sadness of his loss. The need for change is not all on one side.

You seem unable to see the humanity or courage of this man or the sadness of his loss. You seem unable to make any distinction between your own assumptions of others and reality. Of course the need for change isn’t all on one side- another platitude which does nothing to address a hard cold reality-it is one side, and one side only that has institutionalized hatred of Jews as government policy, newspaper report,and religious belief. Go right ahead and point out that one peaceful man’s heart was crushed. Point it out as many times as you like to as many people as you like. But you do nothing at all in service of peace when you try to claim that someone else hasn’t acknowledged it. I not only acknowledged it, I linked to further information about it. Now show me a link to a Hamas spokesman who ackowledges that a Jewish newspaper account is more reliable than all the Palestinian Press. Show me a Palestinian newspaper acknowledging your own statement–Men do not make peace with those they consider evil, peacemaking begins by seeing the humanity of our enemy and condemning Hamas for demonizing Jews and making their destruction into government policy. Show me a sermon from a Palestinian mosque denouncing Hamas for embracing terrorism. Show me a sermon saying suicide bombers will be rewarded not with a sexual fantasy but with eternal life in Hell. You’re quite right,the need for change is not all on one side. Now see if you can convince those who think it’s “all about the occupation” how deadly their ignorance is. Unless there are major and dramatic changes in the whole of Palestinian society-it’s government,its religious institutions,its press,its media, it wil make no difference what Israel does.You cannot make peace with a society that has embraced hatred as its reason for being.

R. Weinhagen, You can make peace w/ a society that has embraced hatred for its reason for being. That’s history. Look @ what happened w/ my people. I am a black man. This country was founded on hatred and the systemic destruction of my people. the same thing is true w/ the indigenous peoples here ie the Danae (also known as the Navajo) and other indigenous groups. I am no means claiming everything is a bed of roses. But there is more peace available than what you are claiming. It is not easy and there will be much sacrifice (like the little girl that died by Israeli bullets or the average person going to visit the coffee shop blown up by suicide bombs.) But just like the 4 little girls killed in a church there will be something that pushes the Palestian people to see the humanity of the Israeli. It’s just a matter of time because most people don’t like violence. Most people don’t like death. That will overcome because the alternative is much worse.Oh and I get your frustration, I share it. But again what other alternative is there? p

You can make peace w/ a society that has embraced hatred for its reason for being. Sure you can. If you want to be destroyed. No one has a right to make that decision on behalf of someone else- whether an individual or a society. Saying that this nation was founded with hatred as its reason for being is ridiculous. But there is more peace available than what you are claiming. That’s your opinion. I disagree. There is no more peace available without recognizing what I am claiming. But just like the 4 little girls killed in a church there will be something that pushes the Palestian people to see the humanity of the Israeli. It’s just a matter of time because most people don’t like violence. Most people don’t like death.No. Most rational people don’t like death. Irrational people and irrational societies sometimes embrace and worship it. All the platitudes here about both sides needing to change that pretend that both sides are equally at fault with one breath and then blame Jews and talk about “occupation” with the next only prolong the death and misery. That certainly isn’t “pushing” Palestinian or Arab society to do anything but more of the same. But again what other alternative is there? Seek the truth and speak about reality. Don’t hold Jews to an impossible standard and make excuses for a society that declares its intention and dedication to killing Jews. There is no excuse.It’s wishful thinking to hope for Palestinian society to recognize a reality that an ostensibly Christian site like Sojourners is virtually blind to and resists with all its might.

Saying that this nation was founded with hatred as its reason for being is ridiculous. No it’s not. Or did you forget the 3/5′th compromise that brought this nation together in the first place. It’s goal was to unite the colonies, give the south some form of representation for its slave populace and entrench that evil institution into american life. Saying that hatred was not how this country was founded is not historical. It was founded on hatred and racism and greed. you can’t ignore that by sugarcoating some mytholigal ideal of how this country came into being. You want everyone to recognize a reality for Israel that you don’t want to see for this country. Wow. You said. “Seek the truth and speak about reality. Don’t hold Jews to an impossible standard and make excuses for a society that declares its intention and dedication to killing Jews. There is no excuse.” I am speaking the reality. That’s what you fail to recognize. You hide behind Zionism and refuse to recognize that what you are saying is not accomplishing anything except for anger w/ Israeli neighbors and a poor life ethic for the state of Israel. Sure Hamas is dedicated in their charter to the irradication of Israel but I find it odd that they are not doing it. I find it odd that they are having so many internal problems right now that their government is failing. I find it odd that for all this blustering and bravado they don’t take greater steps to whipe Israel off the map.Instead they use guerrilla tactics and terror to make Israel so afraid that Israel stops thinking straight. Living in fear is not an option. it just leads to the same destruction Israel is trying to avoid except it’s much slower. Oh no one is saying Israel should just lie there and take it. But they should be smart in how they respond to and lately that has not been the case. p

There is no Palestinian nation. Israel has not allowed it.Palestinians who have not fled currently live in concentration camps, and are being chewed up, in the words of one Jewish leader, like a pastrami sandwich. Despite Zionist claims of being under threat of destruction, between 3 and 4 Palestinians have died for every Israeli, and the loss of land is entirely on their side. The origins of this conflict are not anti-semitism, but the displacement of an entire population to make place for another population, some themselves cruelly displaced and some from nice houses in America.In my opinion Mr Weinhagen is representing the anti-semitic position in this discussion, categorizing an entire semitic people as founded on hate.

You can keep repeating that the US was founded on hatred but that won’t make it so. It might be more helpful, rather than railing about the past, to recognize that it was the US that ended slavery.It was the Jews who were in the forefront of the US civil rights movement- not the Arab Brotherhood. Where do you think you’ll still find slavery today? Oh, no, you say,no one is saying that Israel should just take it- they should be “smart”– smart like what?Like you who find it “odd” that Hamas isn’t more succesful at wiping Israel off the map. Smart like Jim Wallis who still bashes the US and Israel and dreams about an imaginary international police force to resolve an international murderous death cult? Smart like your anonymous friend below who creates his own false history, creates concentration camps in his own mind and dares to accuse anyone else of anti-Semitism? No thanks.

R. yes it will. Just because you like to ignore history doesn’t make it not exist. Again 3/5′ths compromise. W/o that this country would not exist. It is the past, the present and the future. Why can’t you deal w/ that? This country was founded on greed and hatred of black people. It was solidified and made real by a compromise to reduce the voting and citizen rights of black people. Whether you want to deal w/ that or not is not the problem. Smart like honoring their own treaties w/ their neighbors. Smart like not sending in tanks to roll over people’s houses when an attack comes. Smart like making sure the Palestians have water w/o restrictions, smart like not trying to lie and cheat people off of their lands. That’s smart. You are right Jews were at the forefront of civil rights and as I recall that alliance has been at the forefront of the modern civil rights movement. If this country was not founded on greed what was it founded on? p

One more thing the Jews did not end slavery that was the abolitionists and a civil war. They did help in bringing attention and ending segregation but slavery the Jewish voice was not really strong in that time. p

If this country was not founded on greed what was it founded on? You could look it up if you were interested. You can kee proclaiming I ignore history all you like, but until you can actually disprove something factually instead of by throwing opinions around It isn’t very impressive. If the proof that the US was founded on greed and hatred of Black people- and that it will be so “past present and future” is supposed to be the 3/5 compromise– then your proof fails on your own standard.The 3/5 compromise ended 2 centuries back. ——- What treaty between Israel and Palestinians would that be? The ruling party of the current governmental and legal representation of the Palestinian people seek the destruction of Israel- according to their own charter, and will not acccept any responsibillity to uphold current agreements. Why should any government of sane people even meet with them, let alone agree to offer them anything at all? You’re over the top- again- with your talk about sending tanks to “roll over peoples houses when an attack comes”- and again with no acknowledgment of any context– like how many weapon smuggling tunnels existed in the house or how many rockets were launched from its front porch. If you are concernes about Palestinians you might consider focusing on some of the areas I’ve mentioned. Convince them to recognize Israel, comply with the The UN Resolutions calling for resolutiion of border disputes, renounce terrorism, stop teaching hatred of Jews to their children, don’t smuggle weapons or fire rockets from your house, don’t teach your children to blow up in crowds or honor them when they do. ——– And of course the Jews didn’t end slavery in the US. No one said they did.Muslims haven’t ended it in their societies yet. Even Sojo has recohnized that.Interesting how every discussion about Anti-Semitism always becomes another session protesting any charge of anti-Semitism and then quickly turns to revisionist histories and blaming Jews for the ills of Palestinians. It took a while, but reviewing the thread someone manged to get almost all the canards out- -stolen land and “illegal” occupation -power-mad Jews on a rampage destroying homes-Palestinians in “concentration camps” -Arabs are Semites,so they can’t be anti-Semitic No,no,it’s not Jews,its Zionists and Neo-cons It’s all about the occupation Amazing. Anti-Semitism used as a defense against charges of anti-Semitism.

R. Weinhagen does have a point. The governments of some middle eastern countries do indeed use antisemitic (i.e. anti-Jew and anti-Israeli) propaganda to ignite fervent nationalism and distract their citizens from the injustices they suffer (at the hands of their own government and the few wealthy persons who control too much of it). You don’t see the same level of state-sponsored propaganda in Israel. But then again, Israel is a democracy and its citizens aren’t so poor as most of the middle east. Israeli citizens have more power (e.g., they vote, they are educated and they make living wages) and more self-determination. Then again, R. Weinhagen’s thinking is very much the problem. While it reflects the reality of one perspective quite well, it makes impossible any solution to the cycle of violence that foolishly continues.

I have one thing to say, Why do people make Jesus out to be a guy who would not even raise a finger to protect somebody? His words about loving people, and praying about people who have hurt you, have been taking out of thier context, its just crazy. Do we really think, when Jesus, being a jew, told his jewish brothers (not 21st centrey Christian’s ) but jews. The they should “turn the other cheek” when Rome came thirty years latter, and slaughted thier childeren? That thats what he was asking? Yeah, don’t fight unless you have too, but this American 21st centery Jesus just blows ny mind!

More nonsense. I have a point- but of course it doesn’t really count because Israeli citizens have “more power”– they vote. So do Palestinians. They voted for a party that is pledged to the destruction of any Israeli State within any borders anywhere in the Middle East. That isn’t my perspective or my thinking, it’s Hamas’ perspective. They voted for a party that refuses to be bound by any existing agreements with Israel. Not my perspective, not my thinking. Hamas thinking. They voted for a party that preaches,teaches, endorses and carries out deliberate mass murder of civilians. That isn’t my perspective and it isn’t my thinking. No matter what direction you try to look from, Hamas still won the election. They still believe what they believe, and act according to their own beliefs. The Palestinian people elected them. You’re conerned about a cycle of violence? I’m not impressed. I think you’re talking about the wrong people.

R. Weinhagen, You miss my point. You offer no solutions. None.When the rest of the middle east (and the world for that matter) is not desperately poor and the populace begins to be educated you will see the change that you want.

My the God of Jacob come and solve this mess. Because humen thinking never will. Nick

My the God of Jacob come and solve this mess. Because humen thinking never will.Nick

Fact: A poll of Palestinians taken before last years’ election showed that over 65% of Palestinian civilians favored a just and lasting peace with Israel. Fact: After the election 75% of Palestinians said they voted for Hamas simply because they were fed up with the corruption of the Fatah party. Fact: It was a democratic election, and therefore put Hamas on the hit list of a little-known Fundamentalist group called Al-Quaeda. Fact: Palestinians have enabled a vibrant culture to flourish even in the midst of occupation and civil strife. Fact: Arab Israelis hold seats in the Knesset (the Israeli Cabinet), an Israeli Arab was recently appointed Minister of Culture. Not something you would typically see in, say, Apartheid South Africa, Nazi Germany, or present-day Saudi Arabia. Fact: Very much like many communities in this country, most Israeli Arabs unjustly have inferior schools, healthcare and housing — to the chagrin of many Jewish Israeli and American Jewish organizations who are currently conducting outreach programs to try and rectify that. Again, much like in our own country. Fact: The separation barrier is only 1/3 of concrete wall and has cut down suicide attacks by over 50%. Which in turn cuts down on brutal military responses from the Israeli Military. Fact: The Israeli National Anthem is the only national anthem without a reference to war. Fact: As brutal and disproportionate as the war against Hezbollah in Lebanon was, it was in response to an unprovoked attack/kidnapping of citizens inside their own country.Wow, whose side am I taking in this? Kinda hard to tell, ’cause I’m simply giving FACTS and not lacing it with conjecture & heated rhetoric. See how messy it gets when you don’t demonize “the other side”?I thank those of you on this board who are able to provide an unbiased case supported by FACTS and don’t whitewash or conflate separate issues. You know who you are, and you know that because of these inconvenient FACTS there will never be an “answer” — at least not one that’s “right”, that’s nicely wrapped in a neat package and tied up with a pretty bow. p.s. I’m sure some of you, instead of trying to learn anything will instead rush to flame me. Can I then complain about attempts to “ostracize” and “silence” me?

You miss my point. You offer no solutions. None. I got your point. In a discussion thread about anti-Semitism you would like to stop looking at anti-Semitism. You would like to come up with a solution to the “cycle of violence,” but without addressing the cycle of violence of a government, press, media, religious institutions,and political parties that all teach and preach hatred of Jews and recommend violence as the solution.

R. Weinhagen said to me: “You would like to come up with a solution to the “cycle of violence,” but without addressing the cycle of violence of a government, press, media, religious institutions,and political parties that all teach and preach hatred of Jews and recommend violence as the solution.” R., I agree that the issue you stated above exists. WHY does this situation exist, and what is to be done about it? I say that the most salient causes of this hatred is socioeconomic oppression and lack of education, thus, I say that the best intervention is economic development in the region .

R, I know you are just going to ignore this. You are good at that. But just in case you are interested in American history (which you said ended a few centuries back.) Do you even know what the 3/5 compromise is or the role it played in uniting the colonies together? Here please read and become educated. “The issue of how to count slaves split the delegates into two orders. The northerners regarded slaves as property who should receive no representation. Southerners demanded that Blacks be counted with whites. The compromise clearly reflected the strength of the pro-slavery forces at the convention. The Three-fifths Compromise allowed a state to count three fifths of each Black person in determining political representation in the House.” I got that from here. http://www.aaregistry.com/african_american_history/552/The_ThreeFifths_compromise http://www.coloradocollege.edu/Dept/HY/HY243Ruiz/Research/politics.html If that is not hate I don’t know what is. The south was not going to ratify the constitution until they came up w/ a way to count the slave population. That’s a fact. Slavery paid well and the union itself benefitted from it. Another historical fact is that one of the largest slave trading ports was in New York when the country started.”According to the first U.S. Census, the slave population in New York grew to 21,324 by 1790, making New York the largest slave-owning state north of the Mason Dixon line, a distinction it held throughout the two centuries the state practiced slavery… Not only did many enslaved Africans live and work in New York prior to the American Revolution, New York City prospered as a thriving center of the slave trade. New York slaving ships made over 150 trips to Africa between 1715 and 1776. Most of the enslaved people brought to Manhattan were transported from New York after a brief time in port to the Caribbean or else to Virginia, the Carolinas, and Georgia.” http://www.slaveryinamerica.org/geography/slave_laws_NY.htm It’s amazing what a little history can do. The 3/5′ths compromise brought the colonies together and it was the only thing that could so until you can prove other wise which you won’t because you want other people (to prove your points for you.) then please don’t speak on topics you know nothing about. _____________________________________ As for Israel, (I love this.) So offering the people anything is out of the question because they voted in Hamas even though the majority want peace. I love that rationale. Maybe it will work. So water rights and other options are off the table until Hamas changes its position? It’s interesting to note that both government’s Hamas and Fatah want peace btwn themelves and Israel. The treaty they signed this week speaks to that very salient fact.”The meeting is intended to yield a government that would include members of both parties and be acceptable to Western governments so that they resume relations with and aid to the Palestinians and restart peace negotiations with the Israelis, which have been stalled since 2003.” http://www.sptimes.com/2007/02/07/Worldandnation/Bid_to_end_fighting_b.shtml Will it work? Who know’s but it’s better than the alternative. p

WHY does this situation exist, and what is to be done about it? I say that the most salient causes of this hatred is socioeconomic oppression and lack of education, thus, I say that the best intervention is economic development in the region . You can say it- but what’s the evidence for thinking it? If poverty and lack of education cause religious and political beliefs endorsing mass murder than why isn’t the entire world awash with hatred and suicide bombers?Who is going to administer economic aid to the Palestinians and ensure it buys food? How are you going to deal with education? How do you plan to prevent newspapers (not just in the West Bank and Gaza, but throughout the Arab world) from printing anti-Semitic articles and false stories of atrocities? How will you prevent the use of textbooks from doing the same? How will you prevent Imams and preachers in the mosques from indoctrinating hatred and teaching mass murder as a religious duty?

I know you are just going to ignore this… You’re right. The 3/5 compromise ended two centuries back. It obviously didn’t establish hatred as the reason for the US in the present or the future.I’ll ignore any report that Hamas is seeking peace until I see some independent translation from the Arabic. Then we can see how fast they amend the charter, recognize the State of Israel has a right to exist, and end the anti-Semitic preaching and incitement in the mosques, and renounce terrorism. I didn’t say anything about giving nothing to Palestinians because they voted for Hammas- but the idea does have merit.

From payshun’s recent– The treaty they signed this week speaks to that very salient fact.”The meeting is intended to yield a government that would include members of both parties and be acceptable to Western governments so that they resume relations with and aid to the Palestinians and restart peace negotiations with the Israelis, which have been stalled since 2003.” Treaty? What treaty? In any event, this is why I always wait before believing early reports about Palestinian peace proposals–You might have paid more attention to this part of your linked article–The United States and the European Union consider Hamas, which has carried out numerous attacks against Israeli civilians and opposes Israel’s existence, to be a terrorist organization. Then you would’nt be surprised by this: Current news: ( even Reuters gets a story right now and then) The Palestinian unity government which will be formed under an agreement reached in Saudi Arabia will not recognize Israel, a political adviser to Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh said on Saturday. “The issue of recognition was not addressed at all (in Mecca),” Ahmed Youssef said. “In the platform of the new government there will be no sign of recognition (of Israel), regardless of the pressures the United States and the Quartet would exert,” he said.

R. Weinhagen said: “If poverty and lack of education cause religious and political beliefs endorsing mass murder than why isn’t the entire world awash with hatred and suicide bombers?” Most of the world is awash with hatred and violence (though not always with suicide bombers). R. Weinhagen provided these excellent questions: “Who is going to administer economic aid to the Palestinians and ensure it buys food? How are you going to deal with education? How do you plan to prevent newspapers (not just in the West Bank and Gaza, but throughout the Arab world) from printing anti-Semitic articles and false stories of atrocities? How will you prevent the use of textbooks from doing the same? How will you prevent Imams and preachers in the mosques from indoctrinating hatred and teaching mass murder as a religious duty?” R.,You’ve hit the nail on the head–these are certainly the questions to ask. I hope the world weighs in with solutions, I think it’s going to take as much. Palestine is one of the poorest regions on the planet, and has one of the highest birth rates and infant mortality rates in the world. Among such a population you will always be able to find a relatively few lost souls who don’t value earthly life much, and believe violence is a solution.Others want to weigh in on these questions?

One the one hand, you overestimate the violence level worldwide Most of the world is awash with hatred and violence and don’t seem to recognize the significance of this (though not always with suicide bombers) On the other hand,you greatly understimnmate the extent of paricipation in violence involved in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict– relatively few lost souls who don’t value earthly life much, and believe violence is a solution. It takes quite a bit more than a “relativly few lost souls” to maintain a constant state of war for fifty years, crank out the political propaganda, the religious teaching, the school systems, the constantly improving bomb-making… and.of course, none of this is limited to the West Bank and Gazaa. We’re looking at the entire Middle East being involved in a pandemic of hatred and rage. As to what to do about it, there really isn’t any need for inventing anything– The only reason there is any entity understood as a Palestinian people and any consideration being given to a Palestinian State is because Yassir Arrafat, in return for recognizing the PLO as the legitimate negotiating voice for the Palestinian people agreed to renounce terorism and seek a negotiated solution of boundaries. As has become standard procedure,the UN had no desire to enforce ite own regulations. Treaties, regulations, cease-fires, , — all are ultimately meaningless without enforcement.And enforcement means force. The Church has no responsibility in the implementation of earthly justice, yet, despite being so far unsuccessful in bringing about change through its own spiritual practice, the Church opposes use of force by those who are responsible for the task of implementing justice. The answer to althe “How will you … questions is initialy quite simple.Either the Church will be succesful in leading people into peaceful lives by way of the Gospel– ie bringing people to to a point of repentence and conversion by example and teaching– orthe governments ( or,of course, non-state entities like Al Qaeda et al) of the world will do it — quite imperfectly, of course, and by use of force. The problem that first needs addressing is why does the church, while failing at the former approach, somehow thinks it is called by the Gospel to oppose the latter.