I wish I could share some of the love the author speaks of. He's right some of us love America for it's ideals. I do. But at the same time I just can't focus on the ideals when the death of millions stands as a reminder of what our independence cost us.

p

Posted by: Payshun | July 5, 2007 3:17 PM

I agree with Jim, good commentary. This is a point that can't be made often enough because it doesn't seem to stick. There are people on one side who feel that America is evil and has nothing redeeming associated with it. Others seem to think America is always right and just and any criticism is unpatriotic.

Both of these types of people are ridiculous. America, like an other nation of human beings, is imperfect. However, there is much that is positively exceptional about America. This isn't an either or situation. We should continue to strive to meet our ideals.

Posted by: Eric | July 5, 2007 3:46 PM

moderatelad,

i am so not understanding this. The US opened the war. There are people the world around that don't like the attrocities that have come from it. Yet somehow the UN should be responsible for cleaning up our mess? I am confused. Not only that but no one said (not on this site) that the UN is more moral.

What are we really going to do about the very real and balanced criticisms citizens of the world have? That's my real question.

p

Posted by: Payshun | July 5, 2007 4:25 PM

Jim Wallis,

I agree.

Also, I think there is an old saying about individuals that works well in this circumstance as a saying about ourselves as a nation: "If only we could see ourselves as others see us".

Posted by: Mike Hayes | July 5, 2007 6:08 PM

On the fourth of July I took time to reflect about what the USA means. I have always believed that the uniqueness of this country is really about the people, the land, and the Constitution, regardless of who is currently in power. I believe new citizens and many federal offices take an oath to protect the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic (I may stand corrected). It occurred to me that I defend the Constitution almost daily. No, I don't pick up a gun. But as a public school teacher and citizen, I defend others' right to free speech, especially that which I don't like. I wage war against those who claim that "God, Prayer, and the Bible are completely banned from the public schools." Of course, that is not true, and clarify that as I defend the First Amendment that "Congress shall not make any law respecting the establishment of relgion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof." I defend the Constitution by writing letters to the editor, protesting the US Patriot Act or FBI actions which have gutted the Fourth Amendment protection from illegal searches and siezures. No, it's not the same America we once knew. But the people who most want to tear apart our Constitution and take away my freedoms do not speak Arabic or live on the other side of the world. They live next door to me, work in my community, work in my town, represent me in Congress, and live in the White House. Education about the Constitution is absolutely mandatory to maintaining freedoms. So, join me in defending the Constitution today and every day.

Posted by: artdude | July 5, 2007 6:22 PM

Moderatelad,
Your argument is similar to the argument an abused woman makes about her abuser to justify staying with him: "Sure, he hits me every once in a while, but he has a really good heart and he always apologizes and brings me flowers, and I know he really loves me." If you knew the abuser, thought he was a great guy, and later learned he beat his wife every couple of months, would you still think he was a great guy?
I agree the U.S. has done many great things for this world. But I'm not satisfied with all those great things, nor should you be. Your heart should bleed over Abu Graib and Gitmo. Just because we do some things right, and we certainly do, does not mean that we should turn a blind eye to the things we don't do right. It doesn't mean we shouldn't ALWAYS be working for a higher standard. It doesn't mean we shouldn't hold those who perpetrated such atrocities responsible. Never, ever, ever, should we just say, "well, the U.S. has made mistakes, but it's OK because we have done so many other really great things in the world." Never, ever, ever, should the bad things we do be justified by the great things we do. I love my country, and I am proud of the good we have done, but I am still ashamed, saddened and embarassed by our mistakes, and I will give no one a free pass just because of all the great things we have done. Nor should you or anyone else. It is a sad day when we stop holding our nation to the highest standard possible (that would be, the standard of Christ).
I also don't think Wallis was arguing that the U.S. was not a great country. What he was doing was pointing out areas we have failed. It is never unpatriotic to question our government's activities. I want our country to be great, and as long as things like this occur, how can we truly be great?

Posted by: squeaky | July 5, 2007 6:32 PM

"But the people who most want to tear apart our Constitution and take away my freedoms do not speak Arabic or live on the other side of the world. They live next door to me, work in my community, work in my town, represent me in Congress, and live in the White House"

Oh, I guarantee you that the people who are committing acts of terror would tear the Constitution to shreds in a heartbeat.

"We Americans have not been able to fix our own problems, isn't it arrogant to think that we can fix others?"

We fix problems every day. It might be arrogant to think we can do the same for others.

"From what I read, America is the problem."

The problem with what?

"Corporations "run our" politicans up to the top for their profit. There are more private contractors in Iraq than American military, making hugh salaries and profits, while the deaths rise and American's continue the illusion of "Democracy and Freedom"."

Our democracy is not an illusion. George W. Bush will be gone in 18 months. Democracy in action. You are also free to criticize him as much as you like.

"On the 4th of July I performed my Patriotic Duty at our local park handing out Impeach Bush and Cheney for crimes against humanity and violating the American Constitution."

I would actually think this action would be deleterious to your cause. People don't want impeachment proceedings.

Posted by: | July 5, 2007 7:37 PM

Interesting comments Jim--not because I think they are substantively controversial, but because raising these issues actually creates so much controversy.

Once again absent from these comments--as usual--is the injustices committed towards the Natives who lived in this land before it became America on behalf of the United States government. Not only should we be asking about how other countries view the American ideals, we should also ask those whose ancestors lived in this land before it was America yet were also largely excluded in practice (and often still are) from the ideals set forth in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

I live in South Dakota, just a few miles down the road from the six poorest counties in the United States--all on reservations. Certainly, we have made some strides--although nowhere near enough--with including people of other minorities under the American ideals that claim every person is created in the image of god. Little progress seems to have been made in our viewpoints toward tribal nations and on behalf of including natives under the American ideals of equality, liberty and freedom. Archbishop Desmond Tutu once said, "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality." Although this elephant of injustice may have arguably lost or gained a little weight over the years with our increasing recognition of minority rights, it is certainly still standing on the tail of the Native American mouse.

Stuart Reiswig

Posted by: Stuart Reiswig | July 5, 2007 8:07 PM

Having a son sceduled to go to Iraq I have to say this Fourth Of July was more important then any others in recent memory . I loved the fellowship of our friends , our discussions , our laughter and we supported each other in prayer . It was a Grand day .

I am not as concerned as my liberal citizens of what other nations think of us . I recall something A Lincoln said concerning the war, he was more more concerned being on the side of God then God being on our side .

I wish we had a another President , I am some what concerned of the political discourse going further in the toilet and how the new Presideent will handle it .

But America has been blessed by some great people , who saw wrong and tried to correct it , sometimes doing so . That is still America , our ideals , and we are still the hope of the Free world .

Posted by: Mick Sheldon | July 5, 2007 10:38 PM

Well Pat ,

I think you went a tad over board in regards to impeachment , but I appreciate your passion .

Posted by: Mick Sheldon | July 5, 2007 11:43 PM

It was hard to celebrate this 4th of July, as we seem to have lost our soul. Oh how I long for the truth.

It is true that this is a country of immigrants but how many people will own up to how we stole this country from the many peoples who already lived here? We still refuse to give them the rights they deserve as sovereign nations.

We took their land, broke every treaty, put them on reservations and in typical European style declared that we discovered this land not seeing them as human as God created all of us.

Being half Ojibwe and half Irish I have a different perspective. I look at that fence to keep the American Indians of Mexican decent out with disgust. We lied and continue to lie to take anything we want. How long will it take till we learn to speak the truth and live it? You know it will never work.

Our southern visitors I have met came because they could not feed their families and were looking for a better life the same as all the rest of the immigrants before. Immigration laws need to be fair and the mistakes of the past need to be addressed without constantly demonizing these people.

In reading the history of Ireland and England the callousness of our British friends during the potato famine seems to be the attitude we have taken. Watching millions die from across the bay with no help or heart should have taught us something if history is not to be repeated again.

Callous, selfish responses are not in keeping with
the law of love that Jesus taught.

I also wonder if the non-whites are just not that welcome in this land of the free? Is bigotry behind some of the reaction that we don't want to admit?

Posted by: Trudy Marsischky | July 6, 2007 12:04 AM

Mark P., way at the top caught my attention, as did "bewildered," who wondered what distinguished this thread's commentary from any old Democratic mouthpiece.

How about this? The earth as an example of the material universe is a piece of Creation. Creation is a gift to all humanity, not selectively to some. The American ideal of creating those political and economic institutions which facilitate the demonstration of "all men [people] are created equal" cannot be realized so long as the economic value of Creation is privatized, which is, so far as mortal beings is concerned, tantamount to privatizing God. The market rent of Creation is a social revenue. The market reflects the individual interests in Creation/Land, and the socialization of that market land rent is due acknowledgement of humanity's equal and aggregate/communal interest in Creation/Land.

Posted by: David Giesen | July 6, 2007 2:32 AM

Some good ideas/discussion although the 'woman being beaten' anology was a little off for me.

Just an observation that I was waiting to see if anyone would pick-up on. Does anyone question just 'who' was making this accesssment of the US and where they are from? Is this someone from France or Germany or from Cuba or North Korea. There is a lot that is being discussed that is not in the article and I believe it is not in the article for a good reason.

And yes - in previous articles a number of writers have praised the UN over the US on a number of issues. (these same people I can not remember them praising the US about anything) Excuse me for being the skeptic but the 'stats' in this article are lacking.

I will stack up what the US does for releif in the world against any country in the world. I will access what the US has done in defense of the weak around the world over the last century against most countries. We are not perfect and things go badly at times, but if it were not for the US - more people would have died because of tyrants around the world. There is a Nancy Peloci in Iraq and other Mideast countries that would like to make a difference for their family and countries - the problem is that Nancy P. doesn't give a $%^& for that person and neither do many that support Nancy.

Have a great day -
.

Posted by: Moderatelad | July 6, 2007 8:29 AM

Posted by: squeaky | July 5, 2007 6:32 PM

who perpetrated such atrocities responsible

maybe we need to define the 'who' you are talking/accusing. We should also define just what 'atrocities' have been committed. Yes - a few, very few, got out of control and embarassed a few Islamic men that we had behind bars. They have been punished for it. But I have not seen any 'proof' where the allied forces have overstepped what the G. Convention when it comes to what is acceptable in the handling of detainees. They are some that 'say' we have, but offer no proof. There are some that believe we should not do anything to prisoners when trying to get information out of them. Fine - but the G. Con. allows this to happen - that they do not agree is their right, but that does not make our millitary wrong.

If your family was being held hostage by a mad person and wasing going to murder them no matter what. All the talking has done nothing to improve the situation and only allowed that person to set things up to their advantage. Now - a sniper on the roof across the street has a clear shot and from their POV it would be as surgical and execution as one could get. You going to tell the Captain in charge that he can not shoot to person to say your family? As for me - I would pull the trigger so that no one but me was responsible for the death of one to save many.

have a great weekend -
.

Posted by: Moderatelad | July 6, 2007 8:57 AM

There is a Nancy Peloci in Iraq and other Mideast countries that would like to make a difference for their family and countries - the problem is that Nancy P. doesn't give a $%^& for that person and neither do many that support Nancy.Have a great day -Posted by: Moderatelad

Thank you for elevating the discussion. I am now convinced that my beliefs, values and ideas were wrong all along based on this clear, convincing and concise statement. It is like an epiphany, Mod. Thank you, thank you, thank you! Just so that I continue my journey of growth, which militia camp do you suggest I attend? I hear there is one in Michigan!

Posted by: Sarasotakid | July 6, 2007 9:10 AM

People are asking about distinctively Christian perspectives on the American ideal, and how the US is perceived around the world. It seems that tempering the "ideal" with some hard-nosed realism and humility about human nature might be a path to a more Christian understanding of the behavior of a powerful government.

Here's a quote from a 1953 volume by Reinhold Niebuhr.

"To those who exalt freedom we must declare that freedom without community is not love but leads to man making himself his own ends. To those who exalt community we must declare that no historic community deserves the final devotion of man, since his stature is such that only God can be the end of his life.

"Against those who make the state sacrosanct we must insist that the state is always tempted to set its majesty in rebellious opposition to the divine Majesty. To those who fear the extension of the state for the regulation of modern economic life we must point out that their fears are frequently prompted not by a concern for justice but by a jealous desire to maintain their own power.

"A tolerable community under modern conditions cannot easily be maintained; it can be established at all only if much of what has been regarded as absolute is recognized to be relative; and if everywhere men seek to separate the precious from the vile and sharply distinguish between their interests and the demands which God and the neighbor make upon them.

"Perhaps our generation will fail. Perhaps we lack the humility and charity for the task. There are ominous signs of our possible and even probable failure. There is the promise of a new life for men and nations in the gospel; but there is no guarantee of historic success."

Posted by: Oliver Jones | July 6, 2007 10:55 AM

Oliver Jones, thank you for the quote from Reinhold Niebuhr. What a good and wise man he was!! We could use a prophet such as him in these troubled times.

Posted by: carl copas | July 6, 2007 11:30 AM

Moderatelad--you seem to me to be so ingrained in the "America is the greatest country in the world" mentality that you won't take criticism no matter who it comes from or how much proof there is to back up the criticism. You are quick to dismiss criticism because it comes from the "wrong source." What is the "right source?" Whose opinion actually matters to you? Yes, we are a nation that has done many great things for this world. But when criticism comes, what is your response--to make excuses for a president you clearly venerate and who can do no wrong, or do you at least listen to the criticism to see if there is some failing (even when it doesn't come from a "pre-approved" source)? Even large corporations, if they want to be successful, do this. It's just plain good business practice, if you want to be the best you can be. Sports teams do it, too. The best sports teams never make excuses, own up to mistakes, and do their best to do better. You are quick to make excuses, and slow to listen to criticism. Were you equally vigilant in defending the U.S. and white house when Clinton was president? The U.S. is a great country, but it is not immune from mistakes or criticism, and when it comes, it is arrogance not to listen and evaluate and change policies when necessary. Pride goeth before the fall, and if you want to see our nation continue to prosper, pride must be rooted out, or we will go the way of the Roman Empire.

Posted by: squeaky | July 6, 2007 12:24 PM

Wow! How hard it is for any of us to accept criticism. I personally know how hard it can be, as I was a professional musician in my younger days. Criticism was easier for me to take when I first started out – before I had gained so much attention. As I grew in popularity and my number of “friends” increased it became harder for me to listen to my critiques. After all, I seemed to be doing very well and I just “knew” what was best for me. Time went on and I eventually developed a relationship with a person who had the uncanny knack of seeing through me in ways I could not defend. It made me angry at first and I reacted accordingly. Fortunately, I began to realize the reason for my anger – I knew that, in many ways, my friend was right. I began to listen - it wasn’t easy, but I did it anyway. Now I am much more at peace with myself – even if I am still not perfect. It isn’t easy for me to listen to criticism, but I have found that if I do so in a constructive manner it seems that I do “grow” and my quality of life vs. quantity of life grows also. Another interesting observation is that as my life gets better, qualitatively, the lives of those close to me also seem to be getting better.

Posted by: james | July 6, 2007 1:29 PM

I do not understand the hatred of the left for this Pres.

He governs with no regard for anything other than making his right-wing base happy and has always done so. When you refuse to listen to anyone who comes from a different perspective, you wind up having serious problems -- in this case, almost all of which he has brought upon himself. Remember, NO ONE was criticizing him right after 9/11. Truth be told, Bush singlehandedly revived the American "left," which was all but dead (contrary to what many on the right believe).

Posted by: Rick Nowlin | July 6, 2007 1:50 PM

Posted by: Bill Samuel | July 6, 2007 1:32 PM

Hostile to the US, Great Britton, Australia and line keeps getting longer. They are hostile to anything and anyone that is not Islamic. OK - that one did not go well according to you, and I would agree in part. But the average person like you and I in Iran is living in fear and poverty much more than they did under the Shaw. With your logic - we should not have gone to war with Hitler - he was elected and the 'people' loved him. Yes the percentage in comparison to GDP is low when it comes to Gov't agencies. But lets put into the mix NGO's and we are at the top. So - the citizens of the US are very benevolent people - even when the gov't isn't. It is better when the money comes from the provate sector as 80 to 100% get to the people in need. The Gov't agencies are lucky to get 25 to 28% to the person.

the last time I checked - Kuait is doing very good since the allies drove Saddam out. Does that help balance the scales for you with Iran? I truly believe that we (the allies) will be dealing with Iran in the next few years if nothing changes. They will get the bomb - if we relay on the UN to handle this. Then Iran can be a threat to the whole world - wonder if the Shaw would have done that???

Have a great weekend with family and friends!
.

Posted by: | July 6, 2007 1:58 PM

I'll stick my neck out (noname) and say that the USG should not have gone to war in Europe, the Barbary Coast, the Philipines, Japan, anywhere, ever. The only place the USG should go to war is in the US, against invaders, and if you think we did not provoke Japan into attacking us you are wrong.

Nathanael Snow

Posted by: jurisnaturalist | July 6, 2007 2:04 PM

Posted by: jurisnaturalist | July 6, 2007 1:57 PM

Moderatelad is also scared. Especially of Islamic radicals. I’m scared of bees.

Please don't talk for me - I am more than capable of defining this myself. I am not 'scared' - if I was I would be living as a hermit in northern MN living off the land and not interacting with anyone. (I believe that some would like that...)

We left them alone and they flew plains into our buildings. All we were doing is buying oil from them so that we could run our cars and heat our houses. Radical Islam - NOT all of Islam is the problem. Are you reading the papers or listening to the broadcast news? DOCTORS - Medical people in Great Britton are making car bombs and killing innocent people. People that are just going about their ordinary daily lives and the Radicals are trying to murder them - HELLO????

I have (and had as some have moved away) Islamic neighbors that do not agree with the 'radicals' but will not say anything public because of reprisals from their own people - HELLO????

Go ahead and play with your bees - their sting is just bothersome. The Radicals want to murder you.

Have a nice day -
.

Posted by: Moderatelad | July 6, 2007 2:14 PM

America lives a paradox of high and noble ideals of liberty , equality, justice, and equal opportunity for all and the constant realization that we can never achieve those ideals. This leads to a sense of failure. In our best moments we feel the joy of achieving those ideals, but then we fall back to the reality of our humanity. In our humanity we sense our smallness and sins. We know we are not worthy to call ourselves Americans. We look around and find others who approach those goals more fully than ourselves. We blame each other. This leads to frustration and wars, hatred and despair. We now live in a culture of shame and blame that seeks to extol the virtues of each citizen. How do the parts of our society contribute to that Shame and Blame?

From our earliest days our schools teach us that if we are not superior we just as well not show up. The No Child Left behind effort has shown many schools to be underachieving. The school systems have tried to loose those students who bring down the average rather than finding ways to bring all up to their potential. We hear lots about the failure to achieve and little about new ways to achieve the maximum potentials of all students.

As we flee the blame of unmet academic achievement we run into the same standard of succeed or recede. Only the stars in sports and entertainment are acknowledged. When we show up ready to play, only to sit on the bench, we confront our failure even before the team takes the field.

When we seek to work the same happens. The least in school are the least at work. They get the least respect, the least pay and the worst jobs. When they seek to rectify this they are threatened with loss of jobs and even their lives. They confront a system of privilege and right, a wall of might. Those e who achieved in school now control the work place. Now the rule by the privileged class replaces the equality we held as the ideal.

The rules of the workplace, the rules of our society enforce this rule by the privileged. Thos seeking to achieve by means outside of the system are quickly defeated by the legal system. Our founders sought to replace the rule of the privileged few by the rule of laws. Laws made by all. Yet our laws are not maid by the people, for the people, of bodies of the people.

Our political system has become a system where a poorly educated, self educated man can rise to lead the country. Where is Lincoln in our field of Presidential hopefuls? True Lincoln proved himself in the state and national legislature before seeking the Presidency. But now we see how those who would be President must prove themselves to the monies and privileged class to be seriously considered by the rest. Our polls reflect the candidate’s ability to woo the monies.

When we Pray to our God to rectify that system, what do we find. A system where the privileged and educated clergy tall the laity what God says. The educated that rejected the monetary goals of our society were usurped by the powered of the pulpit. Rather than teaching the laity to let the Bible teach them they use the powered of their pulpit to tell the people what God wants them to hear.

Yet there are vices that hold up passages of our sacred texts that would lead us to the ideal of Liberty, equality, Justice, and equal opportunity for all. Yet they fall into the traps of self promotion to allay their insecurity. Notoriety as the end and not a means to the end. Fund raising as the goal, rather than the means to that goal. They hold that God loves us not for our successes, but for ourselves.

How can we live in that unconditional love? Is it not by putting aside our needs, for the needs of others? Is it not by stopping to hear the pain and joy of theirs? This is the radical ideal that our founders held forth. Yet they tried it from the top down, they tried it by the imposition of law. Yet they used their privilege and power. And now we cringe at the evidence that we are second place at our own game. We reject the notion that giving the power to the people will achieve our ends. Socialism is Un-American. Individualism is why our ancestors founded this country. Yet “My Way” has led to the “Old Way. Not because of lack of vision or mission, but lack of a clear alternative. They were products of the “The Age of Reason”. Now we see that the powers behind the reasons are the emotions.

It was the emotions resulting from Britain’s treatment of our founders. The power and privilege over the weak and outcast. They sought to impose freedom by restricting the powerful and privileged. They sought to impose ration and reason over emotion and passion. They sought to create freedom by imposing new limits. How can liberty ever be achieved by limits and laws? How can freedom ever be achieved without expectations of the individual?
Individuals left to their own will soon create groups with their own expectation and norms. Just like atoms left in space will soon collect into molecules, ever more complex molecules. Societies have coalesced into ever more complex societies. If we are to change those societies should we not change the ways individuals interact? Has not ration and reason run its course? Should we not now focus on emotion and passion? Should we stop dictating and start listening? Stop dictating the behavior and actions and start listening the feelings and needs?

Is it not a paradox that I use ration and reason here to fulfill my feeling of disconnection with our discourse on the plight of our society? I want to feel secure. I want to feel loved. I want to feel good, because I need security. I need love. I need optimism.

One place I have found this new paradigm is in “Non-Violent Communication”. Her I am learning to set aside my fears and expectations to hear others emotions and needs. I learn to be empathetic and love. Love myself and others more fully. I Believe that God tried to say this through Jesus and other messengers.

Messengers that we now meet in our global society. Messengers that we need to hear. Messengers that can feel our wants. Messengers that can fill our needs. Fill our need for Peace. Fill our needs for Community. Fill our need for liberty. Fill or needs for equality. fill our needs for Justice. fill our needs for equal opportunity for all.

Posted by: Dave M | July 6, 2007 2:47 PM

Nathanael have you really looked at your solutions in a real world .

You want people to rescue others when evil dominates others . To bring this closer to home , if someone was robbinbg your house , you would rather have the police just take you out of the house and the crooks have at it .

What happens then Nathanael is the crooks learn they get away with it and expand their roberies to other houses You have to confront evil , we as a civil and just people need to do it it the best way . That is clear , and this Administration certainly did not do that . But your solution is far worse then that , and that is saying much .

I don't want the robbers at my house , sorry .

Posted by: Mick Sheldon | July 6, 2007 3:02 PM

Dave,
That was a nice commencement address. What are you trying to say?

It seems one element that runs through your diatribe is forfeiture of responsibility.

First we give up the responsibility to educate our children to the state, and consequences follow.
Second we give up the responsibility to get work. We expect someone else to train us and equip us to work. The is enable because we have allowed someone else to feed us through welfare and the like.

Laws should not be made at all, they should be discovered. There exists a natural law which is accessable for observation. The courts provided a decent laboratory until they found their conclusions ignored and overturned by powerholders in favor of special interests. The law was corrupted as soon as we let it be written arbitrarily, instead of discovered systematically. The books of Deuteronomy and Judges provide support for a common law system.
Lincoln came to power by prostituting himself to special interests just like today’s politicians. Indeed, he may have set the mold.

We should not work to give the power to the people, we should work to eliminate the use of power, force, coercion, unprovoked, at all.

Are you really advocating abandoning reason in favor of emotion? This works fine on a voluntary basis. But there must pre-exist a rational structure for it to operate within.

Who do you want to love you, to provide your security, your comfort?

Empathy is a useful device, but it is based on reason just as much as emotion. Adam Smith’s first book was A Theory of Moral Sentiments, all about empathy.

Christians go further, to actually entering in to other’s experience through prayer and fasting and social action.

You are seeking the prophetic. In “messengers.” That’s good. Fulfillment is in the hands of those who are empowered by the spirit and unite in love – the church.

Nathanael Snow

Posted by: jurisnaturalist | July 6, 2007 3:14 PM

Where's Donny? Could we get him to talk some sense into Mod Lad?

Posted by: canucklehead | July 6, 2007 3:41 PM

Justin I think you need to lighten up a little .
How many people here on this blog in the name of God promote political legislation . Some people promote some policies I find offensive and immoral in the name Of God .

You have a problem with in God We Trust ? Think about all the legislation done for corporations or special interest groups that effect your life and your kids futures . Many times it has nothing to do with God, does that mean it better or "neutral" because they trust in Enron ?

Anyway , God gets enough blame for things in this world , Give him a break ,Besides , I trust Him . Not many things you can trust in these days .

Posted by: Mick Sheldon | July 6, 2007 3:57 PM

Posted by: Pat Blair | July 6, 2007 4:06 PM

Last I checked, God's Commandment was, "THOU SHALL NOT KILL".

Actually - the correct phrasing would be 'Thou Shall Not Commit Murder' or '...Murder an Innocents.' Murder of an innocent person or a defenceless person is wrong. Killing in self-defence is not murder and your involvment in a war is not murder. There is a difference.

Have a great day!
.

Posted by: Moderatelad | July 6, 2007 4:18 PM

Moderatelad--Tempering your words might lead to more discussion rather than this straight out dismissal:

"The guy is nuts - perhaps we can send him on a one way trip to a deserted island in the south pacific so that he can sing 'Some Enchanted Evening' to the wild life there. I will be happy to kick in the first $100.00 on this cause."

Whether you agree with the writer or not, don't be so uncharitable. It doesn't become you, and it destroys any sort of substantive dialogue.
I encourage everybody to forego the descent into maligning one another.

Posted by: Kirsten Vaage | July 6, 2007 4:52 PM

Mick,
It is pointless to try to defend one’s property when the institutions of justice do not respect property rights and believe it is their sole authority which can assign those rights. So, in a world where property rights are clearly defined it is worth my while to defend my house from robbers, either on my own or through an agency. I happen to trust security agencies more than the police. But for victims of injustice where the chances of instituting good laws is slim, it is not worthwhile to fight. Good laws have to be arrived at voluntarily, or they are by definition, not good laws. Hitler and Stalin were not going to choose good laws. Neither was France or the Balkans it turns out. And when all is said and done I doubt the Iraqis will choose good laws either. This is because none of them respect or acknowledge the only way to arrive at good laws: the common law system. So, the fact is that every culture that is lacking this legal foundation is full of crooks stealing from other crooks. They are wolves fighting over the sheep. The best solution: get the sheep out of there.

Evan Jellical,
America doesn’t need to repent nearly as badly as the church and I do for not accepting the command and responsibility given to us by Christ to assume full responsibility for caring for the least of these. And we need to repent of our pagan fascination with political mechanisms, and our false belief that these mechanisms are the right means for achieving the mandate given to us by Christ. Make no mistake: “government is the negation of liberty.” (Ludwig von Mises) Manipulation of political mechanisms is pagan worship. It says that the state can so things which we should do ourselves. It says that only the state can provide the solution to problems which Christ established the church to solve. It turns away from the means God provided and turns toward the use of force against innocents. It sacrifices the individual in favor of the collective, like human sacrifice, when that sacrifice has already been made.

Nathanael Snow
ndsnow@ncsu.edu

emails are more than welcome if anyone wants to continue an aspect of this thread further.

Posted by: jurisnaturalist | July 6, 2007 8:00 PM

Posted by: Kirsten Vaage | July 6, 2007 4:52 PM

Pleae take a look at the origional posting and the name at the bottom...

Those are MY WORDS - I wrote them.

Joke...

Happy Friday (tee hee)
.

Posted by: moderatelad | July 6, 2007 8:36 PM

I didn't condemn God. My point was that there is an American hypocrisy when "In God We TRust" is stamped on coins, etc., and then our actions indicate that we "don't trust God". Moderated, there is no "rationalization" or "selective killing" when the Commandment is not acknowledged. THou Shall Not Kill! Very simple really. In fact I would suggest that it means look for another non-violent means to settle differences. A large number of service people are returning from Iraq/Afghanistan just as they did from Vietnam suffering from PTSS. This happens when a person has acted against their taught values of respect for others, when they harm others. I really can't see that America is a Christian Nation as it would like to claim. IF we were, we would not have illegally invaded another country. The death rate must be over a million now and several million refuges. Really nothing in which to feel pride.

Posted by: Pat Blair | July 6, 2007 9:54 PM

This has been a fascinating series of comments to read - because I am an Australian Christian observing some intense and passionate discussion of what it means to be patriotic. There are many similarities between the USA and Oz, in spite of the vast disparity of populations. Both nations have become what they are by immigration, and have troubled relations with the original and now much marginalised inhabitants. Culturally Australia is very similar to the US. We know far more about you than I believe the average US citizen knows about us. So I think it is easier for us to comment accurately (and I hope perceptively) on what we observe about the US and it's behaviour than for you (Mr/Ms Average American) to appreciate our point of view.

So my comment is that many Australians like me are disappointed with US imperialism (ouch. that's an emotive word, but I think it reflects the 'global policing' policies of the US - in support of economic benefit for the US, rather than altruism or justice for the poor that Jesus taught.) Yes, we appreciate much of the good that you in the US have done - but please, try a little harder to appreciate how those of us living outside your protectionist borders feel. Arrogance is not retricted to the USA. Might is not always right - but that is how it appears, more often than not.

There are many Australians who are keen to see more done by USA, UK, Aust, to raise the real living standards of eg Arabic and African nations through better health and education, rather than just benefit our (USA, UK, Aust. etc) hugely energy-dependent life-styles and economies.

It is worth pondering what our (USA, UK, Aust. etc) responses will be in another generation when China and India will have massively bigger economies - and hence the clout to 'influence' politics in other places. Will we be so keen then to defend their 'democracies', or will we want to retreat into stubborn and petulant 'we are still the greatest and we know best, so there!'

You can (and will) defend your constitution, like we in Oz will defend ours - and the very similar ideals which both our countries hold to - but they must not be eroded by the politics of fear, greed and self-interest.

And God's grace still gives me hope for the future.

Posted by: Ian | July 6, 2007 10:32 PM

God's Word tells us about the Lord Jesus Christ, "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14

Jesus Christ was full of BOTH grace and truth. that is something that no other human being is fully capable of doing as we are not truly born as God's real sons and daughters conceived by the Holy Spirit! That's the amazing thing about God. He is fully TRUTH, "Absolutely judging sin and condemning it as wrong, such as breaking laws and crossing the border illegally." But He is also the perfect God of MERCY, "Who forgives and justifies all sin regardless of rhyme or reason!"

If only we, as Christians. could be full of BOTH Truth and Grace without compromise, I believe we would be much more tolerant of those who are "illegal" aliens out of the deep and unconditional love that God has for us and urges us to have for others! The next time you think of others, regardless of who they are, stop and think of how God looks at your sins and forgives you with unconditional mercy and grace! How then should we act?

Posted by: Gary | July 7, 2007 2:20 AM

but please, try a little harder to appreciate how those of us living outside your protectionist borders feel. Arrogance is not retricted to the USA. Might is not always right - but that is how it appears, more often than not. Ian

You're asking too much of some of these neoconservative reactionaries, Ian.

Posted by: Sarasotakid | July 7, 2007 4:29 AM

Ian, I think your reference to US foreign policy being based on whatever is in the best economic interests of the US of A, misses part of what I perceive to be the "US" character. I think there is an idealism fundamental to US history which goes far beyond a "Greed is Good/ Show me the Money" attitude. I think that Americans (as a collective) are more passionate about the world becoming a better place, than people from most other parts of the world. (I'm not necessarily talking about the leaders here - I'm talking about everyday people.)

Sure, this is probably related to their evangelical zeal for democracy and capitalism, but anything that provides a coherent framework for establishing how communities and individuals relate can't be all bad, can it?

Having said that I see this hopefulness in The American People (note capitals) I am very much in a minority in holding this view. In fact in the 6 years that I've been arguing with my fellow Australians about this I don't think I've ever found anyone to agree with me. The actions of your leaders (read: Guantanamo Bay/Abu Ghraib)are what people see, and they tend to invalidate any talk of democracy, justice and the rule of law.

By the way, Kevin - Fosters is a trick Australia played on the rest of the world so we could keep all of the good beer here.

Posted by: Stuart | July 7, 2007 12:38 PM

How odd, but not surprising, that at an Ideas Festival, people bristle at the idea of being self-reflective, and looking inward at ourselves (a good spiritual exercise) rather than just outward, somehow thinking we, as individuals, or we as a nation, can escape from hubris, hypocrisy, and self-deception. Yet, so many of our Founders believed that we had to put Laws into place to protect us from ourselves - our desire to protect our own interests, but not the interests of others, our belief in our own Rights, but not in the Rights of those who disagree. Our belief that we should have freedom of speech, freedom of religion, but not wanting the same freedoms for those who think differently. How wise they were, to be reflective enough to realize how our flaws can overtake us. Perhaps patriotism is partly loving the ideals, and recognizing how often individually, and as a nation, we don't live up to them - and then desiring to do something about it.
Dr. Linda Seger
author, JESUS RODE A DONKEY: Why the Republicans Don't have a Corner on Christ

Posted by: Dr. Linda Seger | July 7, 2007 3:18 PM

I am part of a very small group that each take a day and pray for our men in women in the millitary in combat for their safe return. I will add your son to my list.

Be blessed -
.

Posted by: Moderatelad

Thank you , more then you know .

Love n Christ , Mick

Posted by: | July 7, 2007 3:47 PM

Or are American lives of more value in the eyes of God ?

Posted by: Annie (

Not at all Ann, yes by all means please pray for my son and they also . Also let us pray for the Terrorists and our President . We are all God's favorites .

Also , someone was doing something very speacial for my son . please do not allow your passion to cast a shadow on a Gracious deed either .

Posted by: | July 7, 2007 5:33 PM

Mick, I just met with my Congressperson this morning. She is working hard to stop the Iraq War. Bush is the obstacle as are some of the Republican Congressmen. I, also, asked her to sign Rep. Dennis Kucinich petition to Impeach Dick Cheney for crimes against the nation. I would add George W. Bush to the Impeachment issue. It is Congresses duty to Impeach these war criminals(Bush and Cheney). Mick, I support the right of your son to not go to war in Iraq. There are organizations that will support him. I am sure that he can find one around his base or contact Veterans for Peace or Iraqi Veterans against the War. There is no reason for Mick's son or anyone else's to join the ranks of the war criminals if they go to Iraq. You can't be a Christian be in the military. Peace to you.

Posted by: Pat | July 7, 2007 8:53 PM

Posted by: Annie (UK) | July 7, 2007 4:30 PM

Or are American lives of more value in the eyes of God ?

All lives are valued and I did not put one over the other when I offered to pray for Mick's son. We have just established a small group that pray for our service men and women by name each of us takes one day a week. I find it very offensive that you would blast - chastize me on something so basic to my faith. Your snyde remark...enough said - have a good 'whateever' you want to have.

later -
.

Posted by: Moderatelad | July 8, 2007 12:14 AM

"Memo to other non-Australians: Kevin was joking. After you've visited Uluru, Kakadu, the Great Barrier Reef and Sydney, and listened to some ordinary Aussie blokes in small towns, you'll laugh too."

Don't forget the Ningaloo Reef and Rottnest Island. Yes I was joking. Glad you picked up on that. My experience in Australia was that there is a lot that Australians resent about America, but also a lot they could learn.

My jaw dropped the first time someone referred to the bridge used in a game of pool as a "faggot". I wrote an essay on the fact that Australia seems conflicted between their political and social attitudes toward civil rights (the former being about three decades ahead of the latter).

By the same token, Australia is not the melting pot that America is, so the unintended bigorty is understandable (if not commendabel). The evolution is inevitable, so why force it, or tsk-tsk those undergoing the process?

In terms of civil engineering and city planning, Australia is far ahead of the curve, and America could learn a lot about how to balance governmental planning with individual liberty.

All of which is to say that the relationship between America and other nations ought to be reciprocal. I often confront the attitude that Americans are simply uncultured troglodytes. But stereotypes flow both ways.

Netball still sucks, though.

Posted by: kevin s. | July 8, 2007 12:48 AM

Pat in my neck of the woods there is a 1st Lt. Ehren Watada who is being court martialed for doing just that , refusing to go to Iraq . The first trial ended in a mis trial . He went to two local liberal churches and gave presentations .
One of the churches also showed a movie called Loose Change which depicts America and Bush as particpating in 9/11 , that American CIA insiders actually planned the attack . Their web site also calls out for Justice as this web site does .

I am not sure if he offered to give back his compensation for the free schooling he received , but what bothers me , and I believe the majority of people, also those against this war , is he is making another person go in his place .

Giving up so many of our take for granted freedoms is one of the reasons I never joined the military myself , and it is also why I respect those in the military so much . They are willing to give up so much that we take for granted . They do things they do not want to and they are willing to lay down their lives to protect us .
. Your view the war is wrong is shared by most of us , but just like the person who donates money to a sham televangelist , does not God look upon the giver as a good thing , God judges the heart of the giver , not the fact the money given was to a bogus charity .
Consider supporting the hearts of these men and women ,
,

I would be very interested in other Christians who lean on the left side of the political compass if they support having churches show movies that depict America in a conspiracy on 9/11 or support speakers coming to your church that advocate what Pat here is saying .

I live in a very liberal area , in a state that leans quite far to the left . Its one of the things that use to make me think liberal Christians were not to be taken seriously, the fact is Pat people who draw conclussions that Liberal Chruches advocate what you are saying makes you look irresponsible . Christians indeed can join the military , and many of them cling to God while they are Iraq right now serving America . We should be praying for them . Shame on you .

Posted by: Mick Sheldon | July 8, 2007 3:30 PM