There is no biblical support for a "bias towards the poor". There are frequent calls for even-handedness, and a recognition that the poor are particularly vulnerable to injustice, but in the end judges are called to make their decisions based on facts and law without partiality towards any class.

And no, Jena is not America. Jena is part of America, but it is not the whole country.

I remember remarking on an earlier thread that you have a fairly strong case that the Jena Six are the victims of injustice, but Sojo's persistent hyperbole only makes them less credible.

Wolverine

Posted by: Wolverine | September 20, 2007 5:18 PM

What's the matter with just agreeing and working to see that the injustice is righted, instead of looking for a reason to trash those who point out inequities, and then use their supposed ungodly bias in doing so to dismiss the entire matter as beyond concern?

What would be wrong with working to help the Jena Six without using it to make blanket accusations against an entire country? Especially when doing so might gain you some allies on the political right?

I know this: the rich and powerful hardly need advocates to volunteer to defend them, regardless of when they are wrong and when they are right.

My one word rebuttal: Duke

Wolverine

Posted by: Wolverine | September 20, 2007 6:27 PM

What would be wrong with working to help the Jena Six without using it to make blanket accusations against an entire country? Especially when doing so might gain you some allies on the political right?

You forget one thing: We're dealing with the South, much of which obviously still hasn't dealt honestly with its race problem, which the right wing began to exploit in the late 1970s. All in all, the political right has nothing to gain by "doing justice, loving mercy and walking humbly with God."

I don't live in the South, but I know what it's like to be told that I "don't belong" because I'm the wrong color. And while I don't condone violence, I see what the students did as a form of self-defense -- "get them before they got us." That's one thing the right just won't address.

Posted by: Rick Nowlin | September 20, 2007 7:28 PM

Which is also only part of America.

And, as any Southerner will tell you, which has its own unique history.

Posted by: Rick Nowlin | September 20, 2007 7:45 PM

I believe that there is a bit of Jena in every part of the United States of America. It is present albeit masked beneath exterior smiles and greetings that turn to sneers and disgust when victims, who are disliked because of prejudicial thoughts, feelings and fears, are out of earshot or eyesight. Truth be known, it happens in all races. Unfortunately, it appears to be a part of human nature. Seemingly, humanity has to have someone to look down upon. However, I do not believe in injustice regardless to race, creed, sexual orientation or color. Justice is said to be blind, but in the hands of those who would misuse it, justice becomes a weapon to wield, with unjust power, the wickedness of bigotry. It is my sincere belief that a huge injustice was done in Jena and righting it is in the hands of our Awesome God.

Posted by: God's Own | September 20, 2007 8:29 PM

One could argue that God must have loved poor people so much more than the rich, since he made so very many more of them.

Scriptural warnings are very clear of the temptations of wealth and the risk to one's soul which are far greater than those of lack of wealth.

I think those in a rich nation might once again be tempted as all people troubled by conscience are, to slant interpretations and stretch case law in their own favor when it comes to Jesus' clear warnings of how wealth is a snare - comparing it to a rich man with an over-packed camel trying but failing to squeeze through a narrow gate into the city.

Perceptively, the disciple who realises the spiritual gulf between rich and poor in this life isn't as wide as the material one, asks, "Lord, how then can any be saved?"

To which, fortunately for us wealthy and the rest of the idolators of materialism, including many poor, all things are possible with God.

Nevertheless, there is mortal danger in wealth and the attitudes it engenders so easily, in the getting and spending.

Remember the citizen of wealth and fame, who in life lived well and generously made charitable contribution of his scraps to the poor, the beneficiary being in the form of Lazarus? This pillar of the community was so generous that he treated the poor almost as well as he treated his dogs, which ate from his well-stocked table. Pet lovers of America, anyone?

Well, all things come to an end and it was no different in the end for our philanthropist or his hapless supplicant the beggar than it will be for us. In the fullness of time Lazarus and his public benefactor left this vale of tears (at least it was sorrowful in the view of Lazarus).

The afterlife found them in different circumstances, with even water in short supply in the hotel the formerly rich man was accomodated in. Trying to remember who might be connected enough here to put in a good word for him and get better service, he wracked his brains and recalled as a lst resort his former generosity to Lazarus and called him up to see if service was any better where he was. If nothing else he could maybe cheer himself up by hearing of the even more dire circumstances he felt Lazarus would have come into. Maybe he could even enlist him into some sort of indentured servitude on his behalf.

Unfortunately, although shockingly things had improved dramatically for Lazarus (somebody forgot to tell the proprietor of the afterlife about the heretical nature of a "preferential option for the poor") Lazarus couldn't become his manservant and do any steppin' or fetchin' for him.

It seems that now the rich man lived in a gated community to which Lazarus was barred admission. Maybe a little like Hotel California. In any case, the security gates were manned 24*7.

Surprisingly Lazarus had no sense of schadenfreude and would have been willing if it were possible, to get some word back to Pleasantville, but apparently the heirs of the rich man were now having so much fun living it up on the fat of the land that their dear but quite forgotten departed had amassed that even someone returning from the dead wouldn't have made any difference to them.

I have to ask, since someone did return from the dead to tell us, does it make any difference to us either?

Posted by: N.M. Rod | September 20, 2007 9:30 PM

My father is in prison, falsely accused, in Michigan. Michigan is not the south, and my father is not black. The bludgeon of government and injustice go hand in hand, which is why I want as little of it as possible.

While I'm sorry to hear that, I would hope that you would then understand how blacks feel. But, apparently, you've got a great deal of bitterness about that -- and that doesn't help.

Posted by: Rick Nowlin | September 20, 2007 10:37 PM

Wolverine,
One more thing. I want to recommend a book to you. There is a book called "The Civil War as a Theological Crisis." If you can get past the title and all the loaded imagery and questions that comes to ones mind when you hear a title like that I think you will find a wonderful chapter on the "genesis" of how Americans began to believe that Republicanism , Nationalism and Christianity all meant the same thing. I think it would be a good read. The Kingdom of God is so much bigger than American politics and even though many people would agree they still find it hard to put it into practice. Especially when it comes to international dealings, justice, and the poor. Including myself.
Just a recommendation that's all.
Grace and Peace!

Posted by: aaron | September 20, 2007 10:58 PM

As a Southerner, born and raised- I can admit there are many things in both history and currently to be ashamed of-
but, the Jena situation is media driven and fueled by people who thrive on tension between the "races" - not by people who want to bring harmony amongst all peoples.
There are countless kind and peaceful "Southerners" too !
In case anyone has forgotten, The south IS America .

Posted by: | September 21, 2007 12:10 AM

Wolverine,

I kind of understand your point. But that's the thing. We have to look at the good and bad and own both. Jenna is America. But then so is Harambee Center.

http://www.harambee.org/

There is hope in this world and we still have to look at deal w/ the destruction we see in places like Jenna. the media did blow this up, but sometimes things need to be if we as a people are ever going to grow from them.

p

Posted by: Payshun | September 21, 2007 1:12 AM

Yes, because those of us who life in the south are just a bunch of hayseed hicks, and we are just too stupid to not be recist.

Uncalled for -- as I said, I briefly went to school in the South and my mother is from there, so I'm somewhat familiar with its history. Because of that, I say: Embrace your history and learn from it.

Posted by: Rick Nowlin | September 21, 2007 8:06 AM

Payshun wrote:

We have to look at the good and bad and own both. Jenna is America. But then so is Harambee Center.

Fair enough.

Rick Nowlin wrote:

The poor don't need just, or primarily, aid; they need authority. They need to go anywhere and not be regarded as "suspicious" characters looking to steal something or lazy folks just trying to get a handout. That's a cultural, and yes (sometimes), political issue.

I'm not sure what you mean by authority -- if you mean political power beyond their numbers I would have to respectfully disagree. Political authority should be used as much as possible to advance national interests and vindicate justice, which is neutral to race and class. We should resist the temptation to allow political authority to become a tool of unrestrained class conflict.

At any rate, you seem to acknowledge that this is a cultural issue too. Government is a clumsy tool for changing a culture.

Wolverine

Posted by: Wolverine | September 21, 2007 9:02 AM

I'm afraid our debate misses the real issue. Christians are seperate, and different from non-christians. Culturally today, this difference seems to be only skin deep, and not based on a radical transformation from the depths of our being outward. The crucial question to address is how to we view and address those different from ourselves. As an example we have Jesus call to seek and save the lost. In their difference, He viewed them as "lost", "enslaved", "oppressed" and "outcaste" -- and he invites them to follow him. Our baptism is the symbol of that acceptance, the one baptized as the reciepent of Gods grace and truth, the community our acceptance of a brother or sister in Christ, set from from the enslavement of life's powers and principalities. Tragically American Christianity has bought into a plan to look at those who are different as rebellious "free spirits" who need to experience new rules and regulations, and even if shunned by the community they must be bound by its rules. It is not surprising that when a Muslim is branded a "terrorist", a homosexual a threat to marriage and our way of life, a black man as a gang banger a hispanic as an illegial alien, a democrate as unpatroitic and the list goes on... we find it easy to become prejudiced, to oppress, to defend our legalism and to look like the perfect hypocrate to the world.

Posted by: john norland | September 21, 2007 9:47 AM

One of the realities of today is that unless you're rich, powerful or a celebrity, you're not going to get problems addressed unless the media gets involved and embarrasses someone in power who can't stomach bad publicity, whether it's an issue with government or business.

The sad reality is that most people just don't care about anything other than themselves and this is particularly acute in a culture that worships money, because anyone without the moxie is seen as justifiably cursed. Part of the belief system has to make it seem fair that there are severe economic inequities so that it is accepted - and this means that for the most part, people believe that others have problems only because it's their own fault. For themselves, if they're not rich, they believe that's just temporary and that personal wealth is right around the corner for anyone who dares ask.

Posted by: N.M. Rod | September 21, 2007 11:18 AM

Jeff,
You aren't crazy -- there should be punishment in this case of a violent, 6 against 1 attack. But it seems that you do need to look at the issue of perspective here. Certainly the 6 teens who attacked the young man should be punished. But are you aware of the EXTENT of the punishment they were/are facing? My 4 year-old faces consequences when he does wrong...but the punishment must fit the crime. It's a logical principle of justice that applies across the board -- from parents training their kids to the legal system. The severity of the punishment against Bell is so extreme, so extraordinary, so beyond the pale compared to the "justice" dolled out for other events in that town it's just insane.
People sometimes do really idiotic things when they are teenagers...especially if they are really angry teenagers and are in a group of angry friends. What the Jena 6 did is probably something they'll regret for the rest of their lives. What they did was DEFINITELY wrong. BUT it should be punished appropriately.

Posted by: Kelli | September 21, 2007 12:21 PM

Dems have controlled Louisiana forever. From corruption to racism. Isn't it time Dems took to task their counterparts in LA. That may be Jesse's Jackson's point in a round about way. I'm not placing blame on the National party, but at some point these local and state folks need to toe the line.

Uh -- probably a majority of whites there vote Republican today.

Posted by: Rick Nowlin | September 21, 2007 1:05 PM

"At any rate, you seem to acknowledge that this is a cultural issue too. Government is a clumsy tool for changing a culture."

So is the church. Ask the civil rights era about that one.

Amen John Norland, amen.

p

Posted by: Payshun | September 21, 2007 1:28 PM

Jeff -- Blaming the Democrats for corruption won't fly at this point. When David Duke ran for the governorship of Louisiana, he did so as a Republican and got 55 percent of the white vote in the process (though, in fairness, much of that was against his opponent). Anyway, Southern whites began voting Republican in serious numbers in 1980. Besides, it's totally irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Posted by: Rick Nowlin | September 21, 2007 1:44 PM

How should the local church in Jena respond if the facts of the story hold? How long do they carry the brand names if they are part of the racist culture and not God's agent of change.

This could and would never have happened without the silent acquiescence of Jena's white churches. This is the "Bible Belt," after all, and Southern white churches generally opposed the civil-rights movement, so I'm not optimistic of any sea change.

Posted by: Rick Nowlin | September 21, 2007 2:44 PM

Re: "There is no bias toward the poor in scripture."

I'm sorry but I can't sit idly by while an other Conservative tramples on the Holy Bible:

Old Testament passages

* "Do not take advantage of a widow or an orphan." Exodus 22:22

* "Do not deny justice to your poor people in their lawsuits." Exodus 23:6

* "During the seventh year, let the land lie unplowed and unused. Then the poor among your people may get food from it, and the wild animals may eat what they leave. Do the same with your vineyard and your olive grove." Exodus 23:11

* "Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:10

* "Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly." Leviticus 19:15

* "When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 23:22

* "If one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells some of his property, his nearest relative is to come and redeem what his countryman has sold. . . . If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you. . . . If one of your countrymen becomes poor among you and sells himself to you, do not make him work as a slave." Leviticus 25:25, 35, 39

* "If an alien or a temporary resident among you becomes rich and one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells himself to the alien living among you or to a member of the alien's clan, he retains the right of redemption." Leviticus 25:47-48

* "He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing." Deuteronomy 10:18

* "At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns, so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied." Deuteronomy 14:28-29

* "However, there should be no poor among you, for in the land the LORD your God is giving you to possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you." Deuteronomy 15:4

* "If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of the land that the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward your poor brother." Deuteronomy 15:7

* "Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near, so that you do not show ill will toward your needy brother and give him nothing. He may then appeal to the LORD against you, and you will be found guilty of sin." Deuteronomy 15:9

* "There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land." Deuteronomy 15:11

* "Do not take advantage of a hired man who is poor and needy, whether he is a brother Israelite or an alien living in one of your towns." Deuteronomy 24:14

* "Do not deprive the alien or the fatherless of justice, or take the cloak of the widow as a pledge." Deuteronomy 24:17

* "When you are harvesting in your field and you overlook a sheaf, do not go back to get it. Leave it for the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. When you beat the olives from your trees, do not go over the branches a second time. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow. When you harvest the grapes in your vineyard, do not go over the vines again. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow." Deuteronomy 24:19-21

* "'Cursed is the man who withholds justice from the alien, the fatherless or the widow.' Then all the people shall say, Amen!'" Deuteronomy 27:19

* "He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap; he seats them with princes and has them inherit a throne of honor." 1 Samuel 2:8

* "as the time when the Jews got relief from their enemies, and as the month when their sorrow was turned into joy and their mourning into a day of celebration. He wrote them to observe the days as days of feasting and joy and giving presents of food to one another and gifts to the poor." Esther 9:22

* "When daylight is gone, the murderer rises up and kills the poor and needy; in the night he steals forth like a thief." Job 24:14

* "because I rescued the poor who cried for help, and the fatherless who had none to assist him." Job 29:12

* "Have I not wept for those in trouble? Has not my soul grieved for the poor?" Job 30:25

* "If I have denied the desires of the poor or let the eyes of the widow grow weary." Job 31:16

* "The LORD is a refuge for the oppressed, a stronghold in times of trouble." Psalm 9:9

* "But the needy will not always be forgotten, nor the hope of the afflicted ever perish." Psalm 9:18

* " Because of the oppression of the weak and the groaning of the needy, I will now arise, says the LORD, I will protect them from those who malign them. " Psalm 12:5

* "You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor, but the LORD is their refuge." Psalm 14:6

* "This poor man called, and the LORD heard him; he saved him out of all his troubles." Psalm 34:6

* "My whole being will exclaim, Who is like you, 0 LORD? You rescue the poor from those too strong for them, the poor and needy from those who rob them.'" Psalm 35:10

* "The wicked draw the sword and bend the bow to bring down the poor and needy, to slay those whose ways are upright." Psalm 37:14

* "Yet I am poor and needy; may the Lord think of me. You are my help and my deliverer; O my God, do not delay." Psalm 40:17

* "A father to the fatherless, a defender of widows, is God in his holy dwelling." Psalm 68:5

* "Your people settled in it, and from your bounty, 0 God, you provided for the poor." Psalm 68:10

* "The poor will see and be glad-- you who seek God, may your hearts live! The LORD hears the needy and does not despise his captive people." Psalm 69:32-33

* "Yet I am poor and needy; come quickly to me, O God. You are my help and my deliverer; O LORD , do not delay." Psalm 70:5

* "He will defend the afflicted among the people and save the children of the needy; he will crush the oppressor." Psalm 72:4

* "For he will deliver the needy who cry out, the afflicted who have no one to help. He will take pity on the weak and the needy and save the needy from death." Psalm 72:12-13

* "Do not let the oppressed retreat in disgrace; may the poor and needy praise your name." Psalm 74:21

* "Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked." Psalm 82:3-4

* "But he lifted the needy out of their affliction and increased their families like flocks." Psalm 107:41

* "For he stands at the right hand of the needy one, to save his life from those who condemn him." Psalm 109:31

* "He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor, his righteousness endures forever; his horn will be lifted high in honor." Psalm 112:9

* "He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap;" Psalm 113:7

* "I will bless her with abundant provisions; her poor will I satisfy with food." Psalm 132:15

* "I know that the LORD secures justice for the poor and upholds the cause of the needy." Psalm 140:12

* "He upholds the cause of the oppressed and gives food to the hungry. The LORD sets prisoners free" Psalm 146:7

* "The LORD watches over the alien and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked." Psalm 146:9

* "I know that the LORD secures justice for the poor and upholds the cause of the needy." Proverbs 13:23

* "He who despises his neighbor sins, but blessed is he who is kind to the needy." Proverbs 14:21

* "He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God." Proverbs 14:31

* "The LORD tears down the proud man's house but he keeps the widow's boundaries intact." Proverbs 15:25

* "Better to be lowly in spirit and among the oppressed than to share plunder with the proud." Proverbs 16:19

* "He who mocks the poor shows contempt for their Maker; whoever gloats over disaster will not go unpunished." Proverbs 17:5

* "He who is kind to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will reward him for what he has done." Proverbs 19:17

* "If a man shuts his ears to the cry of the poor, he too will cry out and not be answered." Proverbs 21:13

* "A generous man will himself be blessed, for he shares his food with the poor." Proverbs 22:9

* "He who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and he who gives gifts to the rich -- both come to poverty." Proverbs 22:16

* "Do not exploit the poor because they are poor and do not crush the needy in court." Proverbs 22:22

* "A ruler who oppresses the poor is like a driving rain that leaves no crops." Proverbs 28:3

* "He who gives to the poor will lack nothing, but he who closes his eyes to them receives many curses." Proverbs 28:27

* "The righteous care about justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern." Proverbs 29:7

* "those whose teeth are swords and whose jaws are set with knives to devour the poor from the earth, the needy from among mankind." Proverbs 30:14

* "Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy." Proverbs 31:9

* "She opens her arms to the poor and extends her hands to the needy." Proverbs 31:20

* "If you see the poor oppressed in a district, and justice and rights denied, do not be surprised at such things; for one official is eyed by a higher one, and over them both are others higher still." Ecclesiastes 5:8

* "Learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow." Isaiah 1:17

* "The LORD enters into judgment against the elders and leaders of his people: It is you who have ruined my vineyard; the plunder from the poor is in your houses. What do you mean by crushing my people and grinding the faces of the poor?' declares the Lord, the LORD Almighty." Isaiah 3:14-15

* "to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless." Isaiah 10:2

* "With righteousness he will judge the needy; with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked." Isaiah 11:4

* "The poorest of the poor will find pasture, and the needy will lie down in safety. But your root I will destroy by famine; it will slay your survivors." Isaiah 14:30

* "You have been a refuge for the poor, a refuge for the needy in his distress, a shelter from the storm and a shade from the heat. For the breath of the ruthless is like a storm driving against a wall." Isaiah 25:4

* "Once more the humble will rejoice in the LORD ; the needy will rejoice in the Holy One of Israel." Isaiah 29:19

* "The scoundrel's methods are wicked, he makes up evil schemes to destroy the poor with lies, even when the plea of the needy is just." Isaiah 32:7

* "The poor and needy search for water, but there is none; their tongues are parched with thirst. But I the LORD will answer them; I, the God of Israel, will not forsake them." Isaiah 41:17

* "Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter-- when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?" Isaiah 58:6-7

* "If you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry and satisfy the needs of the oppressed, then your light will rise in the darkness, and your night will become like the noonday." Isaiah 58:10

* "The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners." Isaiah 61:1

* "On your clothes men find the lifeblood of the innocent poor, though you did not catch them breaking in. Yet in spite of all this you say I am innocent.'" Jeremiah 2:34

* "I thought, These are only the poor; they are foolish, for they do not know the way of the LORD, the requirements of their God.'" Jeremiah 5:4

* "(They) have grown fat and sleek. Their evil deeds have no limit; they do not plead the case of the fatherless to win it, they do not defend the rights of the poor." Jeremiah 5:28

* "if you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm," Jeremiah 7:6

* "This is what the LORD says: Do what is just and right. Rescue from the hand of his oppressor the one who has been robbed. Do no wrong or violence to the alien, the fatherless or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place." Jeremiah 22:3

* "'He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?" declares the LORD." Jeremiah 22:16

* "Sing to the LORD! Give praise to the LORD! He rescues the life of the needy from the hands of the wicked." Jeremiah 20:13

* "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy." Ezekiel 16:49

* "He does not oppress anyone, but returns what he took in pledge for a loan. He does not commit robbery but gives his food to the hungry and provides clothing for the naked." Ezekiel 18:7

* "The people of the land practice extortion and commit robbery; they oppress the poor and needy and mistreat the alien, denying them justice." Ezekiel 22:29

* "This is what the LORD says: For three sins of Israel, even for four, I will not turn back [my wrath]. They sell the righteous for silver, and the needy for a pair of sandals. They trample on the heads of the poor as upon the dust of the ground and deny justice to the oppressed. Father and son use the same girl and so profane my holy name.'" Amos 2:6-7

* "Hear this word, you cows of Bashan on Mount Samaria, you women who oppress the poor and crush the needy and say to your husbands, Bring us some drinks!'" Amos 4:1

* "Hear this, you who trample the needy and do away with the poor of the land." Amos 8:4

* "Buying the poor with silver and the needy for a pair of sandals, selling even the sweepings with the wheat." Amos 8:6

* "Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the alien or the poor. In your hearts do not think evil of each other." Zechariah 7:10

* " So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me,' says the LORD Almighty." Malachi 3:5

New Testament passages

* "Jesus answered, If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'" Matthew 19:21

* "For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in." Matthew 25:35

* "They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely." Mark 12:40

* "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because He has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed." Luke 4:18

* "So he replied to the messengers, Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.'" Luke 7:22 [ E-book: The Kingdom strikes back ]

* "Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys." Luke 12:33

* "But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind." Luke 14:13

* "When Jesus heard this, he said to him, You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'" Luke 18:22

* "Beware of the teachers of the law . . . They devour your widows' houses . . . Such men will be punished severely." Luke 20:46-47

* "'Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages.' He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it." John 12:5

* "In Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which, when translated, is Dorcas), who was always doing good and helping the poor." Acts 9:36

* "Cornelius stared at him in fear. What is it, Lord?' he asked. The angel answered, Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God.'" Acts 10:4

* "After an absence of several years, I came to Jerusalem to bring my people gifts for the poor and to present offerings." Acts 24:17

* "On the contrary: If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.'" Romans 12:20

* "For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem." Romans 15:26

* "All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do." Galatians 2:10

* "Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need." 1 Timothy 5:3

* "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." James 1:27

* "Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, 'Here's a good seat for you,' but say to the poor man, 'You stand there' or 'Sit on the floor by my feet,' have you not discriminated among yourselves and becomes judges with evil thoughts? Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom He promised those who love Him? But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court?" James 2:2-6

* "If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth." 1 John 3:17-18

___________

And fyi, when someone wants to talk about Lev. 19:15, I'm ready with an answer.

Posted by: Kevin Wayne | September 21, 2007 4:20 PM

As far a David Duke goes. Republicans kicked him out of the party regardless of the votes in LA.

They kicked him out of the party because he was a total embarrassment to it. In fact, when he was running for president, I think in 1992, the Florida GOP tried to have him taken off the primary ballot; that turned into a segment on ABC News Nightline.

Posted by: Rick Nowlin | September 21, 2007 4:22 PM

Rick,
So we agree again. Instead of defending David Duke (or electing him to the US Senate like Robert Byrd) they booted him.

Payshun,
As a pastor, my first step would be to meet privately with other pastor's to pray and seek
God's counsel. At some point we would need to model Christian unity. The next step is to schedule some joint worship and pray services where we pray for each other. This what we are currently doing in the town I pastor in with predominately white and hispanic churches. It works great, but we did this before any crisis came to head.

Jeff

Posted by: Jeff | September 21, 2007 4:36 PM

So we agree again. Instead of defending David Duke (or electing him to the US Senate like Robert Byrd) they booted him,/I>

Excuse me, but Bob Byrd left the Klan in the 1960s and has openly repudiated it ever since. Duke, on the other hand, was always openly racist and only tempered his racism to run for office. You're thus comparing apples to oranges.

Posted by: Rick Nowlin | September 21, 2007 4:56 PM

Rick,
"Excuse me, but Bob Byrd left the Klan in the 1960s and has openly repudiated it ever since. Duke, on the other hand, was always openly racist and only tempered his racism to run for office. You're thus comparing apples to oranges."

Your right.
So I'll repeat the quote without the Byrd dig.
So we agree again. Instead of defending David Duke they booted him.

Jeff

Posted by: Jeff | September 21, 2007 6:23 PM

Mr. Wayne

That God calls upon us to extend generosity toward the poor is conceded. You have no proof that God calls for anything beyond that, especially with regard to state action.

I am pleased to see that you are aware of Leviticus 19:15. I can hardly wait to see your dissertation in which you try to explain it away.

Wolverine

Posted by: Wolverine | September 21, 2007 7:40 PM

Jeff,

I agree. I got my steps mixed up. Pastors should get the ball rolling.

p

Posted by: Payshun | September 21, 2007 8:09 PM

Wolverine,
I feel what your saying. Although we might disagree on this point (because I believe that Gov can and should play a role in preventing poverty, oppression, injustice, etc.)I see where you are coming from. You are saying that it is the churches call to care for the fatherless, widow, the poor, etc. and not the government. It does get messy when the whole church and state thing comes to the forefront so I can understand your hesitancy to see that as the answer. I will say that a lot of God's dealings with Israel in the OT was from a "laws of the land" perspective i.e. government and policies.
Anyway thanks Wolverine for taking it easy on me man and continue to walk in the grace of God and live with the hope that God will one day return and "receive you unto Himself."
Grace and Peace!
Aaron

Posted by: aaron | September 21, 2007 8:40 PM

Payshun,

Context, context, context.

The passage in Daniel applies to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon and comes after a dream in which it is predicted that the King would be temporarily removed from the throne (which he was due to mental illness) until the King recognized that the Most High was sovereign.

In the NIV verse the word "poor" is replaced by "oppressed", which changes the meaning and suggests there is some unjust policy that the King should correct which may or may not pertain to an economic class.

Remember, this is Babylon, not Israel. Given the extremely hierarchical nature of middle-eastern societies it comes as no surprise to me that "poor" and "oppressed" should be interchangeable in Babylon. If memory serves (its been a while since I looked at this) we are dealing with a caste system in which one's legal rights were largely determined by his or her parents' status, something that Israel's law rejected. I suspect that what Daniel was calling for was the relaxation or abolition of that caste system, a political action to be sure but one that is not difficult to square with a market-friendly, limited government worldview.

Now for Amos -- again, context! Prior to pronouncing judgement on Israel Amos condemns:

Damascus for ruining the crops of Gilead

Gaza for selling slaves to Edom

Tyre for selling slaves to Edom

Edom for "pursu[ing] his brother with a sword, stifling all compassion" (I would guess this refers to some atrocity against a neighboring nation)

Ammon for atrocities against Gilead, in particular assaulting pregnant women.

Moab for desecrating the grave of Edom's king

Judah for rejecting the law of the Lord and for idolatry.

And then he condemns Israel, and while he does go on at length about mistreatment of the poor, there's also this little nugget: "Father and son use the same girl and so profane my holy name."

The point being, there's lots of ways for nations and governments to cheese off God, a lack of solicitude for the poor is only one of them.

One thing needs to be explained: I've said over and over again that God does have a great deal of concern for the poor, not least of all because in a corrupted society they are going to bear the brunt of the harm. But God ultimately calls for justice, not bias. Two wrongs do not make a right, even if the second wrong happens to work in the favor of a poor person.

I understand the appeal of wealth redistribution, but to say the least there has to be a point where it ends, otherwise all you achieve is to create a new priveleged class and a new oppressed class.

Justice -- in the end there's just no substitute for it.

Wolverine

Posted by: Wolverine | September 21, 2007 9:05 PM

I am really glad you brought up context but this is what you said:
"You have no proof that God calls for anything beyond that, especially with regard to state action."

My point is that God still requires state action to look after the poor. Better yet he requires all human entitites, state, local, regional, religious... systems to always do something about feeding and taking care of people. You said he did not. That's what bothered me.

I mean how can you pretend he doesn't call Israel, Egypt... to look out for the poor, not committ genocides, not sell people off to slavery? Granted those things are not the same thing but he does call all of humanity to look out for their fellow man and if they don't something bad can and will happen to them.

Now no said total redistribution is the sole solution to the problem of poverty, if there is a one. Why did you go there? You don't see any of us here arguing for that.

"But God ultimately calls for justice, not bias."

what do you mean? What's the difference, from your perspective?

As for the levitical codes, my guess (and it's only that) is that you could argue that Israel's call to look out for the poor and strangers in their midst was just for Israel. It has nothing to do w/ a democratically elected governement. I would argue against that but I could see your argument going there.

p

Posted by: Payshun | September 21, 2007 9:35 PM

Kevin W --
Thank you so much for that powerful listing of Scripture verses. That was just such a phenomenal thing to see, all listed together like that. I remember that the very first time I got a sense of God's compassion for the poor was when I read the Bible through cover to cover (instead of studying bits and pieces). The message is overwhelming and is woven throughout the whole of Scripture. I hadn't really "seen" it before because my church hadn't emphasized it very much.
Thanks for helping me see it again in a profound way.

Posted by: kelli | September 21, 2007 11:18 PM

Instead of defending David Duke they booted him.

Ha, ha, ha. Ronald Reagan was no fan of MLK Jr. either.

Posted by: Rick Nowlin | September 22, 2007 12:40 AM

Wolverine,

That God calls upon us to extend generosity toward the poor is conceded. You have no proof that God calls for anything beyond that, especially with regard to state action.

Then you are blind and you didn't read any of the passages I cited. Over and over again the scriptures call for more than just "generosity" in and of itself, but it repeatedly talks about "defending their cause." One example might be where -as one who has worked for a research organization that studies Fair Housing I can verify that this does happen- if a low income housing project is planned and people are aware, there can be opposition because "nobody wants it near them." I was especially astonished at how some areas such as Boston which seem to be known for their liberal politics actually had a lot of elitist and apparently racist people who would fight good housing services like this.

Another example happened right here in Portland, OR- where at least 2 benevolence meals were targeted for shut-down by complaining neighbors. In the most recent case, this involved a church that I sometimes help out in ministry with And they received lots of support at a city council meeting by a broad spectrum of Christians. Point is, they were doing what they were supposed to do- "defending the cause of the needy" where that "cause" happens to come into play.

If I were to believe you on how the scriptures compel us to deal with the poor, then they would have been doing their job by handing out food & clothing and that would be the end of it. But no, we were called to decide for the poor and against those who would shut them out.

So:

"Defending the cause of the poor" -

-means in this case standing up for them when they are a target of discrimination

and -

"With regard to state action" -

-absolutely, since "the state" is the playing field where the rights of poor are being challenged.

I see where you have acknowledged the verses of "defending their cause" that I referred to, so hopefully you will acknowledge that you were guilty of overstatement here.

I am pleased to see that you are aware of Leviticus 19:15. I can hardly wait to see your dissertation in which you try to explain it away.

My, my my- quite sure of ourselves aren't we? Doesn't the fact that God destroyed a whole city largely due to it's attitude towards the poor cause you to walk a little more lightly? Apparrently not.

But I'll ignore your smarmy-ness for the moment long enough to explain it to you: Lev 19:15 is proof of God's bias towards the poor. The poor don't normally come to the courtroom system (the context of the passage) with an advantage. They can't afford to hire the equivalent of Johnny Cochran to beat the system. They are often the victim of prejudice and unfair stereotyping- that they supposedly "don't work"-which is actually not true even of Homeless People. So God requires that people not show bias towards the Rich or Poor in the court system, because of his special concern for the poor- that they be given a level playing field- and not in spite of it.

On the other hand, if I were to believe you on this matter Wolverine, then I'd expect to find copious passages dealing with "the Rich"as some sort of issue in and of itself where God expects justice and mercy on thier behalf. Where are the verses that say "stand up for the Rich wealthy televangelist who was ripped off by the slovenly watch repairman who didn't fix his Rolex correctly." Naturally I'm using a ridiculous example- to prove a point: the wealthy tel evangelist's Rolex is simply not as important to God. It's actually you who have no proof anywhere that this isn't God sees things. In fact, the Rich are told to "weep and howl" due to impending judgment. Why? Why don't the poor get the same kind of negative attention? Answer: because God is clearly on their side.

And in addressing the actual purpose of the Lev 19 passage - obviously God wouldn't want a poor person who steals from the rich to go unpunished. But all the rich get for their benefit here is the generic "thou shalt not steal". They do not get any demands for justice on their part fue to their economic status.

God is revealed as on the side of the Poor in the Bible, and Lev 19:15 is proof of it.

Posted by: Kevin Wayne | September 22, 2007 2:07 AM

In reading through Wolverines responses on some of the verses being discussed:

I suspect that what Daniel was calling for was the relaxation or abolition of that caste system, a political action to be sure but one that is not difficult to square with a market-friendly, limited government worldview.

Here, Wolverine completely contradicted himself in regards to what he said to me. Anyone else see the same thing? :)

Posted by: Kevin Wayne | September 22, 2007 2:40 AM

Payshun,

The distinction between justice and bias is a tricky one in practice but the basic principle is easy enough to describe: fair rules applied by a fair judge.

Fair rules means creating a system of laws that taken as a whole advance honest dealing and community interests rather than the interests of any group or class within society.

A fair judge means one that is disinterested and is committed to judging the a dispute based on the relevant evidence and the relevant law.

Now perfect justice in this world is rare, all of us are fallible and none of us is beyond trying to advance our own interests. But this is the ideal we should strive for and the closer we get to it the better off we all are.

You will observe that the Bible calls for us to defend the cause of the poor -- this is an explicit call for advocacy but not a call for favoritism or bias. I think its fair to say that the poor are particularly vulnerable to corruption and he wants his people to take particular care to see that the poor get a fair hearing. That's entirely in keeping with God's character and consistent with basic fairness.

What I don't see at all in the scripture is the idea that the poor should have decisions go their way in spite of the law or the evidence. That would be bias and I see no call for that.

Wolverine

Posted by: Wolverine | September 22, 2007 11:50 AM

Kevin W,

I don't really care about him contradicting himself. We all do that from time to time. the thing that bothers me is that Wolverine and other conservatives push this godless political agenda always assuming that God doesn't want to use the state to help people when in reality the state has been a central implement from the beginning.

That bothers me a great deal. They completely disregard the prophets and pretend that part of the bible doesn't exist. They give primacy to the moral aspects of the scripture (which are mainly cultural in nature) and ignore the universal aspects of it just so that they can support a conservative world view.

The funny thing about their ideas of the state is that they do so against God's own plan for the state. I have never understood this. Most conservatives have an aversion to government and yet they want to serve in it. It's like they are looking for ways to fail or something.

They say we feel that way about Iraq (like the dumbass comments McCain said) or any number of stupid things. But the thing is they generally don't believe the state or the government can be used for justice or even that it should. This was taken to extremes for much of our countries history in the persecution of my people, American Indians and countless other groups and yet when justice can be seen and should be offered in a collective way they balk. I don't get it. It doesn't make sense.

p

Posted by: Payshun | September 22, 2007 12:05 PM

Wolvie,

I am so glad you said the levitical codes don't apply to gentiles. Then we can stop this whole business about denying the LGBTQ community equal rights under the law. But that's an aside.

Back to Jena and this post. You are pretty vague about your definition of justice. Can you give some scripture that shows how you define or use your definition of justice?

p

Posted by: Payshun | September 22, 2007 12:32 PM

Payshun wrote:

I am so glad you said the levitical codes don't apply to gentiles. Then we can stop this whole business about denying the LGBTQ community equal rights under the law. But that's an aside.

Actually, that's a great illustration: the specific law (death penalty for homosexuals) is not valid but the underlying moral principle (homosexuality is sinful) remains valid. Which is why I am opposed to gay marriage, though I would not want to see homosexuality itself criminalized.

Back to Jena and this post. You are pretty vague about your definition of justice. Can you give some scripture that shows how you define or use your definition of justice?

This isn't exactly what I'm after, but I think it illustrates the problem and it ends well:

In a certain city there was a judge, who neither feared God, nor had respect for people. In that city there was a widow who kept coming to him and saying, 'Grant me justice against my opponent.' For a while he refused; but later he said to himself, 'Though I have no fear of God and no respect for anyone, yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will grant her justice, so that she may not wear me out by continually coming.' (Luke 18:2-5)

Lemme explain something: I think the Bible has a lot to say that is important, but it doesn't give a whole lot of specific policy guidance. Governing well calls for both spiritual and secular wisdom.

I tend to view society as being made up of individuals who were meant to live in community but retain individual initiative and responsibility. I'm inclined to believe that wealth is not a clear sign of guilt any more than poverty is a clear sign of virtue.

These are secular opinions, and I don't claim a Biblical mandate for a lot of this, but I don't see that any of this is contradicted by scripture either.

Not only that but it doesn't matter what system of government there is God still demands justice from the nations. The principle behind Daniel is that the king or ruler is held to account for how they create their policy. Why do you persist in ignoring that?

What makes you think I'm ignoring that? My reading of things leads to some different conclusions, but it definitely matters: Government should take precautions to ensure that the poor get a fair hearing. And it should not create laws whose purpose is to benefit the wealthy at the expense of the poor. That may not be what you want to hear but it's not nothing.

Wolverine

Posted by: Wolverine | September 22, 2007 1:19 PM

"Actually, that's a great illustration: the specific law (death penalty for homosexuals) is not valid but the underlying moral principle (homosexuality is sinful) remains valid. Which is why I am opposed to gay marriage, though I would not want to see homosexuality itself criminalized."

Me:
Well then if we are going by principles here then that underlying principle does not apply to people that don't follow the law. So again that doesn't exactly work.

"Government should take precautions to ensure that the poor get a fair hearing. "

Well actually the underlying principles in the old testament go a lot further than that. You know it. It's just that you value this system of governance more than those. You seek to protect the rich when in reality God will take and use human institutions to take and give back what was stolen from the poor in the first place.

The principle of reparations is a perfect example of that.

p

Posted by: Payshun | September 22, 2007 4:17 PM

Wolverine writes:

Naturally there aren't many verses like that because that sort of thing doesn't happen very often. (Do you really think I'm that dense?)

Hopefully not. ;-) But a as I explained to you, I was using reductio ad absurdum on purpose to illustrate a point: There MUST be a bias by Yahweh on behalf of the poor because of the way the language of Scripture constantly singles them out as a special concern for justice, based on their economic class.

And I have to disagree with you here: The Rich ARE often victims of injustice! They are ripped off by schemers and lazy people (like the Watch repairman in my example.) Their children are kidnapped & held for hostage. They are often assassinated- several US Presidents obviously have been, but someone could be killed just because the killer wants their money. Why doesn't God go after the awful perpetrators of injustices against the Rich and Powerful, using language that singles them out?

Also, you never touched on the issue of "weep and howl" in James. The Poor commit evil injustices also. But it's surely noteworthy that they are never singled out as a special target of the judgment of God! (Why?) This is what you are avoiding addressing.

But you have to pay attention to what the Bible actually does say. As I explained to Payshun a couple posts above, the Bible does call for advocacy but it does not call for us to throw out the law or ignore the facts in favor of the poor.

But again, no one is making that argument, only you are!

On top of that, you made the forceful assertion against "State action" and said God never calls for anything above and beyond generosity. And you've proceeded to backpedal on that assertion pretty much at every turn since then!

What comes out is that you are bothered by the Socialism of where people might take their understanding of the Biblical commands to advocate for the poor. That's not what you are focusing on in your replies, but it appears to be a latent concern below the surface of your comments.

Anyone else see the same things I'm seeing?

Posted by: Kevin Wayne | September 22, 2007 6:58 PM

I don't think my comments were uncalled for. The south does have a history of slavery, but the south does not own the mortgage on racism, as far as I have seen, it is pretty much the norm, everywhere, with every ethnicity.

The South, with the exception of some border states and those with large Native populations, was the only region in the country where racism was codified into law, often with theological justification, and when those laws were changed a whole lot of people were upset -- even to the extent that many whites changed their party registration. You say you're tired? Well, deal with it, because the South does have that legacy whether people who live there want to accept it or not. Ask one of your black Southern friends sometime.

Many of us do not care one little bit what skin pigmentation someone has. And for those of us that do not care, we are very tired of claims of "hate crimes" and race bating, ad nauseum.

Sorry, but you simply don't have that luxury of not caring -- we haven't progressed as much as you think or hope, and at least even the conservatives who frequent this blog recognize this as a miscarriage of justice. I don't know if you claim Christ as Lord and Savior, but this also represents a stain on the Church, for as I said earlier this would or could not have happened except with its tacit approval.

Posted by: Rick Nowlin | September 22, 2007 10:26 PM

Why does it/should race matter.

You, of all people, should know that it does and why. Do you really believe that the simple tearing down of Jim Crow laws obliterated the racial animus that people still feel? And especially when they get into authority? No African-American in that part of the country is that naive -- ask one sometime. Race is written all over this situation, and if you can't or won't see it ... well, I can't help you.

Nearly 30 years ago, when I was attending Georgia Tech, I walked into an Atlanta church and the folks there knocked themselves out to make me feel welcome -- because, being mostly Southerners, they understood the history and felt they needed to make up for it. I told them, "Thanks -- but I don't need it" because God had dealt with me on that issue years before.

Posted by: Rick Nowlin | September 23, 2007 1:49 PM

Rick,

One correction. Racism was the law of the land under Plessy v Ferguson and a whole bunch of other laws. It was not limited to the south. The north doesn't get a pass here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plessey_v_Ferguson

p

Posted by: Payshun | September 23, 2007 4:32 PM

Kevin Wayne,

I see what you are seeing completely. You are not alone here.

p

Thanks Payshun. It's as I suspected: Another hot aired right-wing know it all trying to hog the spotlight and essentially saying nothing.

So let's review what Wolverine has agreed to thus far:

-God has a special concern for the poor...

-We are to defend their cause...

-We cannot create laws that benefit the wealthy at the expense of the poor...

-We often do that through Political, Governmental & (gasp!) State action!

We're glad you conservatives agree! We wondered when you finally would be coming around. ;-)

Posted by: Kevin Wayne | September 23, 2007 7:54 PM