This has been a trend across the nation, "realizing" that the seeker-based model was flawed. While any human attempt to preach the gospel is inherently flawed, I think there was quite a bit of merit to the approach.

A number of "Gen X" types (and young boomers) had grown tired of church that seemed reptitious, hyper-religious, and boring. So churches deivsed a model by which they dispensed with that which was considered dull (e.g. hymns), and embraced more contemporary music and a more relaxed feel, while retaining a relevant gospel message.

A number of the people who gravitated to the church were former Catholics or Lutherans, whose churches had failed to offer anything relevant and seemed more interested in the contents of the offering basket than discipleship. Often hardened by the experiences of their youth (but not to God), they embraced this "new" way of doing church.

A number of people came to Christ through this model, but the model is less relevant to younger people. Gen Y (and younger Gen X) have learned the painful lessons of Godlessness, and many never even attended church. They come from broken families, and readily embrace God as a possibility.

Thus, churches would do well to move away from the "soft-sell" of the seeker based movement, because it is no longer necessary. But I don't see a need for reprentance. Times change, and as long as churches are preaching the gospel in its entirety, there is no reason not to change with them.

Posted by: kevin s. | October 30, 2007 2:42 PM

The new (old) journey is one that might not lead to greater and greater numbers, but deeper and more committed Christians...that's the emphasis in the right place. One of the threats to the notion of beloved community is our frantic pace, our dependence on programs and activity. Think of what could happen if we got to know our neighbors and fellow church members, sat with them, studied with them and moved into action together to deal with the unfairness and injustice in our society.

Posted by: Mary Nelson | October 30, 2007 4:16 PM

I found my church not through any "seeker" based recruitment, but through what they were doing for the community. They walked the talk. I like that. :)

Posted by: Hali | October 30, 2007 5:56 PM

The trend toward spiritual practice is not new. Most non-mainline churches never left prayer, reflection and so on. Mega-Seeker-Churches and those who attempted to copy them were the exception. It is encouraging that Diane is bringing this concept back into the mainline church world.

The upside of the Gospel light (seeker) and Pentecost light (Osteen) is they have been attractive. Whether that equals more converts or just transfers is anyones guess. The downside (and my greatest concern as a pastor) is that the fluffy feel good message does not prepare people for the inevitable challenges of life. In the shadow of any Mega-church you will find small churches doing the heavy lifting of caring for hurting people.

Posted by: Jeff | October 30, 2007 8:32 PM

First, I only visited one of the seeker type churches and found it to lack the things important to me.

I've spent a long time thinking about the emergence of these super-churches and (keeping in mind that I am not a theologian, I'm a mainstream Episcopalian who tried very hard to live a Christian life) they seemed to lack a creed. in many instances, they seemed to have been formed for a poliical purpose rather than an actual religions one.

I might very well be wildly of base, but I coud not find a break between what the spokesmen said they believed in and what a particular party said it believed in and neither one seemed Gospel driven to me.

In the long term, that method cannot work. "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's" is fine, but you begin to live an unbalanced life if you do not also give to God what is God's.

I did go on, didn't I. Well, it will be very interesting to watch what happens especially as the people in the 20's marry and have families. I think we'll see the comforting mainstream churches become more and more important, especially if they can live up to their creeds.

Posted by: mkolb | October 30, 2007 8:35 PM

ds0490,
Right on. You and I rarely agree. What if the Body of Christ was about showing and sharing the love of Christ. A cup of cold water to the thirsty. Clothes for those who are wearing rags. Food for the hungry. The gospel of grace for everyone who is willing to hear. This is my prayer. I believe God is stirring many saints (regardless of political stripe) to pray and yearn for this kind of revival.

Jeff

Posted by: Jeff | October 30, 2007 8:52 PM

I love Hybels comment on the need to train people to self feed. I am constantly confronted by people shopping for a new church who want to know what we "offer". Church for these people has been reduced to "How good is your show?" and "What goodies do you have for me."

Good point. I've talked about my church probably ad nauseum on this blog, but when I went my first thought was, "Now that I'm here, how can I contribute?", and if we came to church with less of a consumer mentality and more of a desire to get involved it would be a healthier church.

I just read a terrible statistics about the amount of kids that leave the church when they reach high school. In the past many would return, say when they had kids or something led them, but it appears even children in their lives is not doing it.

I actually understand the process. At some point they can't depend on their parents for spiritual sustenance; they have to "go it alone" with God, and that usually happens in their 20s or whenever they start having children. That said, that could be the parents' fault as well for not communicating their faith well to their children (and I don't mean just talking, either).

Posted by: Rick Nowlin | October 30, 2007 9:39 PM

I know you don't agree with me on how this culture is being assaulted Rick by the secualr humanist message of all roads lead to paradise, and will leave it at that.

You're right, I don't agree with you -- for the simple reason that we as Christians can't continually worry about what the "world" is doing; if we were truly living as Christ commands the "secular humanists" wouldn't have a leg to stand on. I for one have never feared being "different"; it's time we stopped caring about the world's acceptance of our values -- I mean, it can't accept our Savior!

Posted by: Rick Nowlin | October 30, 2007 10:27 PM

I've been following this since Hybels announced it at the Global Leadership Summit. It's probably worth clarifying that the survey Willow Creek conducted also found that what they were doing was working well in terms of evangelistic growth and for maturing new Christians.

The negative bit was that those Christians who described themselves as mature and fully devoted were not 'growing' through programs. It was this group who needed to learn to be 'self feeders.'

The Willow Creek response was not about their programs being bad or ineffective, just about their programs not making the expected difference for this slice of their community.

Be Blessed,

Posted by: Trent | October 30, 2007 11:53 PM

for the simple reason that we as Christians can't continually worry about what the "world" is doing;

I don't agree with you either , the world has gotten into the church ,and is accepting the world's values .

M
.

Jeff said
I think each generation has that group that really gets it.

Right on Jeff , Praying for the church is something we all should be doing . The Bible often talks about the remmant , I believe you are part of it here my friend .

Posted by: Mick Sheldon | October 31, 2007 12:21 AM

If have nothing but admiration for Hybels. It appears that he is a man of integrity and if he sees methods that are not working, he leader enough to change direction. I also read that he was against the U.S. aggression against Iraq. It takes a man of courage, especially in the religious world of North America, to take such a stance: 1) when it was not popular; and 2) when it was even less popular in religous evangelical circles. It is rare to find such integrity in a large segement of North American christianity.

Posted by: JamesMartin | October 31, 2007 8:24 AM

I also respect Hybels. This article shows his humility. He also knows that his model should not be universal. He addressed the Assemblies of God (a Pentecostal Denomination) and told them to continue to be Pentecostal. His point was that the church needs us (A/G) to continue to be Pentecostal and not go down the Seeker friendly road. I believe this showed great insight into the Body of Christ.

God has not called me to pastor a seeker church. But I can appreciate and learn from men like Bill Hybels whose call looks a little different from mine.

Jeff

Posted by: Jeff | October 31, 2007 10:36 AM

When I first saw the headline on this article yesterday, I mentioned it to a parishioner of mine -- more about her in a moment -- whom I was taking home from a meeting, and she was as shocked as I was (and still am) ... albeit both of us shocked in a very "good" way.

Now that I finally have had time to read it, I am still rather numbed with delight and a residual amount of unbelief: it's almost too good to be true!

A word about my use of "Willow Creek" in what follows: please bear in mind that, for reasons to be explained below, I am using it generically. My congregation is surrounded both by mega-churches and mega-church-wannabes, and what they have in common often is referred to -- generically -- as "Willow Creek." Some of the specifics below may apply to the real Willow Creek, and they may not; they do apply to entirely too many of these churches in the neighborhoods from which my congregation is drawn and where I serve.

A word about my congregation: we are in Chicago, and the "example" of Willow Creek is not only held up in front of pastors like me, and congregations like ours (Presbyterian in our case; small and struggling as well) ... by congregants too, occasionally ... but in our neck of the woods "Willow Creek" has become a code word for "bigger and more high-tech and more entertaining is better" when it comes to congregational life and worship.

"Willow Creek" -- still speaking generically here; I have no idea how much of this actually might apply to Hybels' shop -- has become so common a model around here that I want to scream each time I hear the words. The standing joke, which is not a joke at all because it is so common in this part of the city, is that these churches generally won't even have a cross in the sanctuary, or hymnals or even Bibles in or around the cushy auditorium seating, all for "fear" of offending "sensitive seekers."

Like Jesus changed His mind about the cross for fear of upsetting tender souls about the depth of the human crisis, and took up writing advice columns instead.

Two years ago, when Christmas fell on a Sunday, Willow Creek -- the real Willow Creek this time -- called off services because, said a spokesperson, Christmas is all about families.

Really?! I thought it was about Messiah's birth, Light in our present Darkness, Peace in our hellhole of War, Compassion in a bottom-line world. How did the Church ever manage to delude me for so long!

And after I came down (or up) from the pits of sarcasm, I thought, more measuredly: That's what you get when you let consumer tastes, and inevitably the trail of Mammon, dictate faith and practice. It's nothing more than modern news practices, which is just barely short of entertainment in itself: the news enterprise's basic job is to deliver an audience to advertisers. It is, in other words, a strategem of Mammon. Same for mega-church entertainment services, once the smoke and PowerPoint mirrors have been cleared away. The Gospel is being marketed, packaged and sold, and it's anything to keep the sensitive buyer happy happy happy.

In my considered opinion, and despite my tone up there, I agree with Diana Butler Bass here that this is a major major event in/among North American faith communities. And lest I forget to do so again later on, let me stop to say how much I appreciate Mr. Hybels' courage in making this statement, and give thanks that there remains a self-critical stratum in Christianity that is strong and well and likely to pop up, self-critically, again at any moment. In the words of my own tradition,"Reformed and Always Reforming" ain't dead at all, after ... not by any means.

In my own congregation's struggle to survive -- keep the doors open -- we all have been witness to some interesting developments somewhat along these same lines.

One: as we have added a contemporary "praise" service, we have found that our very few younger members and consistent visitors (20- and 30-something folks for the most part) have tended to prefer the traditional service. Not always, and in addition some now make a point of worshiping at both services. But more than one of us have been struck by that pattern in what admittedly is a very small congregation, from which one really hesitates to do much generalizing.

Another: Several of the folks who consistently worship at the contemporary/praise service are outspoken in saying (and I am in fact quoting the woman mentioned in my first paragraph): When anyone asks me if I'm a Christian, I say no, I'm not a Christian. I am a disciple of Jesus, a follower of Jesus. But I am not a 'Christian,' nor am I a '[insert denomination here]'."

What they mean by that is that they no longer want to be affiliated with some horrors committed throughout these past 2000 years by "Christians" in the "name of Christ" ... nor with our arrogance and self-righteousness in the face of other religions (let alone other branches of Christianity) ... nor with endless, mean-spirited doctrinal and political nit-picking when in fact Jesus had nothing whatsoever to say about (e.g.) the Trinity or substitionary-versus-moral-example Atonement ... when in fact His core teachings were very simply Love God, love neighbor ... nor (and this sometimes heads the list) with "shallow, superficial entertainment Christianity a la Willow Creek," this time used both generically and literally.

Frankly, I -- a life-long Presbyterian, who still deeply appreciates at least some core themes in Reformed faith and practice -- fully agree with them on all counts, including that last one, the "entertainment Christianity" that seems to be everywhere and growing, whether or not this is fair to the real Willow Creek. At least until a good soul like Mr Hybels has the guts to begin questioning it, for which I am still in an immensely grateful mild form of shock. My only concern -- and it is a serious one -- is that "I'm just a disciple" can run precisely the same danger as the (generic) "Willow Creeks": historical amnesia, confessional dim-wittedness, where the person (and/or congregation) doesn't have the foggiest idea of what has gone on before, and is endlessly condemned to reinventing the faith generation after generation ... and usually getting it pretty badly askew, confusing the historical "moment" with something more enduring.

In any event, these same "disciples of Jesus" have an intriguing vision for a possible future for this little congregation, if and when we have to close the building -- a vision that I once again fully share (and in fact have contributed to, somewhat): that we intentionally move from a building-centered model of ministry, back to "house churches" (that could include store-fronts, rented warehouse space, etc., so "house church" is in quotes right now) ... where one or more "pastors" (ordained or not) serve not only these smaller worshiping "units" but also the neighborhood at large ... being highly visible at "crossroads" and "gathering places" of neighborhood life and traffic ... listening closely, helping the "house churches" both pray for and respond to specific needs in the neighborhood(s) ... and simultaneously relying on these intentional "house church gatherings" for a close reading of what's going on in the neighborhood (so as to better respond in whatever ways seem appropriate, if "nothing more" than "just prayer") ... engaging in interfaith dialogue and learning, and mutual ministry, as neighbors rather than as "institutions" ... and so forth.

Potentially, at least, and without having relied (yet!) on Diana Butler Bass' three components of intentionality, practice and vitality: this has struck those of us I have mentioned above as an intentional way to go about the practice of Christian faith and life with our own energies and not those "adopted" from above in ecclesiasatical hierarchies (In other words, with vitality.)

In closing: every time I mention Ms. Butler Bass' recent book, Christianity For the Rest of Us, in my little congregation the response inevitably has been: Wow! Let's get that book and read it together and see what it says for this congregation!

And so we shall :-)

grace and peace,
bro. steve

Posted by: bro. steve | October 31, 2007 1:27 PM

That's because we're focused on the world, same as ancient Israel -- we need to focus on Christ, and then the world won't matter. That's how the early church did it.

Posted by: Rick Nowlin

That is the best and most truthfull comment I have ever heard on this forum .

Posted by: Mick Sheldon | October 31, 2007 5:03 PM

Thanks very much Bro. Steve, I appreciate that very much. As it so happens, I also am a Presbyterian who appreciates creative traditional worship and even plays the organ and is strong on hymns - of which there are so many good quality modern ones! Ours is a small parish with energetic larger parishes nearby! It takes a lot of cultural accomodation for young people to come to our church, too much in fact, so they do not. But I appreciate very much what Bill Hybels is doing, and his trueness of heart. What an inspiring interview, and a response to the interview, he had with Jimmy Carter at the Summit.It was very challenging.

Incidentally, and importantly in the light of other subsequent blogs, my own personal commitment to evangelism and bringing people to a personal faith and trust in Jesus, involvement in medical missions, the healing ministry, cultivation of a Christ-centred spirituality, and caring for creation through A Rocha all come directly from my focussing on the living Christ and his calling. Being focussed on Christ has meant for me that all these avenues of discipleship are important.

God bless,
David

Posted by: David Troughton | October 31, 2007 10:45 PM

Hey Dave,

We need an organist and have been searching since July with NO results!! Interested??

My clergy group -- 9 members, all Presbyterian, and almost all self-described evangelicals -- is strongly divided around Willow Creek. One of us happens to know Bill Hybels personally, and he continues to caution us that "behind the scenes" (I think he means the image that, at the time, was being promoted by WC) Mr Hybels was/is a strongly committed Christian ... and he seemed to be saying, not entirely clearly imho, that we were "connecting the dots" of some of WC's features (seeker-sensitive etc) incorrectly. The "dots" were there, to be sure, but he felt strongly they were connected in ways unlike what we were seeing.

Maybe what he saw was the kind of "dot-connection" that allowed for this recent self-criticism and "repentance" to emerge. I haven't had a chance to ask him.

Most of the rest of the group -- myself included -- were incensed over the Christmas Day service cancellations; and so this one pastor's input helped keep things in balance. Others in that group, along with at least a few other pastors in our presbytery, regularly attended the Leadership Conferences and were as happy with the experience as you were.

That group, by the way, is interesting in that not all of us consider ourselves evangelicals -- at least 2, myself included, do not -- but all of us prefer the company of a group like ours to almost any other possibilities around us. That's a long and no doubt boring story ... but anyhow, until recently we included a strong Sojourners-related activist pastor, who has since taken a call to an activist Presbyterian church somewhere in the Northeast of the U.S. We all miss him a great deal.

Enough rambling here ... thanks for your reply :-)

grace and peace,
steve

Posted by: bro. steve | November 1, 2007 4:47 PM

Trent, I too was at one of the satellite locations when Hybels made his "revelation". I was a bit amused that the 3 leaders from my new pastorate who were with me were quite surprised at this. Any student of not just mega-churches but of the mainline churches (the news of whose death is grossly exaggerated) would have been alerted about this. Nearly all of the few mega-church members I know or have met casually are comfortable with their membership environment because (not in their own words) they are able to "hid", "relax" and never be called upon for action and service. This disturbing revelation primed me to be unsurprised to hear of Willow Creek's self-discovery.

Truth is, many non-mega-church congregations, mostly of mainline denominations, take the approach of developing disciples who are trained to make and mentor others. In the last 10 years of pastoral ministry, I have grown intensely dissatisfied with Christians, anything more than 2 yrs old (as long as they were adults) who could not "self-feed". In many cases, the kind of personal investment this kind of work takes tends to be the very reason, among others, for growth to take place more slowly. There can be no doubt that one of the other reasons is the high standards required of "self-feeders" and disciple-makers. I would be interested in knowing how many of those exist in mega-churches vis-a-vis "churches for the rest of us".

Another amusing thing happened at that Willow Creek Summit: a suggestion I had been making for nearly a year, but which met with consistent respectful disapproval from one of my leaders, happened to be made by Hybels. My ego itself had to laugh when I overheard the leader muttering to himself, "But they've changed! A few years ago they were saying something different!" I do not hold Willow Creek responsible for the failure of other churches to consult other founts of knowledge. However, I, as a responsible pastor will be leading my church to recognize, test and value the wide variety of church resource authorities in this nation, and Willow Creek is only ONE of them!

Posted by: Michael Friday | November 2, 2007 12:54 AM

I have not read all the above comments but would like to offer some thoughts. We have to believe in the early church they were all believers, committed to death. In todays church a very large percentage of the members are unbelievers. Pauls tells us in 2 Corinth. 6:14 to not be yoked to unbelievers ( most think of this as marriage, but this passage does not even mention marriage ) so if the church has so many unbelievers in it and we are yoked to them , what can we expect? What does light have to do with darkness? So a lot of unbelievers have risen to positions of leadership in the church and are attempting to change church doctrine. So what should the church actually look like and who should be allowed to be a member. The church has become like the military ( I won't ask if you don't tell )so here is a horrible thought, many unbelievers and sinners are receiving communion while some pastors are denying the truth. It is no wonder we are having these problems but thank God, He does have a plan. If you are a believer, in these later days remain faithful and obedient to His Word.

Posted by: Bill | November 4, 2007 6:18 PM