After reading Randy's post I'm confused as to what the "myth" of Thanksgiving (the holiday we celebrate today) supposedly is. Thanksgiving is based on the celebration of the Pilgrims after their survival of the first winter and harvest in the "New World" and has been proclamed by American presidents intermitantly since then. President Washington and Congress approved a Thanksgiving Day Proclamation in 1789 Thanksgiving has been celebrated off and on up until now. As time went on it became a more commonly accepted holiday and was made a federal holiday.

Yes, thanksgiving celebrations date back to Europe (and other cultures also had days of thanks, but they weren't to God). The American Indian thanksgiving celebrations Randy discusses certainly weren't to God, they were to pagan gods, so it really isn't the same holiday.

I agree that the treatment of American Indians by the American government and settlers was particular horid, but I'm not sure what that has to do with how we celebrate Thanksgiving today or at any other time. In Washington's Thanksgiving Proclamation he said "also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions...". I assert that Thanksgiving as a distinct American holiday already makes time for what Randy desires. There is no need to "replace the dominant myth of Thanksgiving with an alternate view." For Christians, Thanksgiving is an opportunity to offer thanks to God for all he's blessed us with. This is what it's been since it was first created.

Posted by: Eric | November 19, 2007 11:44 AM

I re-read Randy's post and was struck by this statement.

"We know that many of the "Christian" Pilgrims did not act like it—their greed for land and false notions of superiority did not reflect Jesus. We also know there were real times of peace and friendship that did reflect the real Jesus. We should celebrate those times. But, if we are using the Thanksgiving holiday as a narrative for peace and friendship, then let's build upon that and not ignore the whole picture.

There is so much to wonder about here. Why does he put quotes around "Christian"? Were they not Christian? (Yes, some on the Mayflower were not, but those we refer to as "Pilgrims" were certainly Christians.) Maybe Randy thinks that anyone who doesn't act as he believes a Christian should act at all times is not really a Christian. This seems to fly in the face of the Christian belief that we are all sinners. We all act in ways, at times, that don't reflect Jesus (yes, you and me too, Randy). That doesn't make us "Christians".

As I said above Thanksgiving and even the Thanksgiving "myth" is based on a specific three-day celebration in 1621. As Randy notes, this was a time of peace and friendship. For some reason though he thinks we should turn Thanksgiving into not only a celebration of thanks to God but also a national time to recognize the treatment of American Indians at the hand of Americans that followed the Pilgrims. Why? It's taught in history class, why do we need to turn Thanksgiving into a day to remember this?

Posted by: Eric | November 19, 2007 11:58 AM

I'm curious why folks are challenging Randy on this article. Why do so many people get their backs up when the we begin looking at the Pilgrims as real people instead of pseudo-icons from a children's story?

As to why we should remember this on Thanksgiving day, a better question might be to ask why NOT remember it on that day? Why shouldn't we recall that the Pilgrims who came to this country were real people, just like us, with their good points and bad points. Why shouldn't we be reminded that, just like us, they sometimes acted in ways that ran counter to their professed beliefs?

Why must we turn them into something they were not just so we can enjoy a meal?

Posted by: ds0490 | November 19, 2007 12:24 PM

ds0490 - No one is turning the Pilgrims into something they weren't other than Randy. Randy is trying to impute the crimes of everyone who came after the Pilgrims onto them.

Thanksgiving is modeled after the celebration of the Pilgrims, that's all. No one's holding them up as example of what a Christian should be. If Randy had his way, Thanksgiving would be not only a day of giving thanks to God, but a day of protests. Religious holidays in this country are way to watered down with secular trappings as it is. We don't need to water them down anymore.

Posted by: Eric | November 19, 2007 12:57 PM

As a living descendant of the African genocide I totally understand where Randy is coming from.

when he said:
We should begin by realizing that Thanksgiving in America didn't begin with the Pilgrims. For thousands of years feasts of thanksgiving have been characteristic of our Indian people. This has never ceased. While I do not advocate we replace them with the dominant Thanksgiving Myth, I still don't want to give up any type of festival of thanksgiving to the Creator—not even Thanksgiving day. Why? The answer is simple. Everything we have comes from God. We should always give thanks—for everything! I think our indigenous ancestors would agree with this point.

He is ultimately asking us to come back to a more pure understanding of Thanksgiving. He is not advocating that we worship pagan gods. He is talking about the spirit of thanksgiving, not the mythic story that is told in school to children. The truth is that the settlers did evil things and made themselves one w/ evil killing thousands and stealing land. He doesn't want us celebrating the darkness they created and I don't blame him on that.

p

Posted by: payshun | November 19, 2007 1:15 PM

I acknowledge the egregious wrongs that mar the history of this nation and of the world. We must not bury the past, nor refuse to examine the continuing far reach of these wrongs. The truth is that all human beings are tragically flawed and all history full of failure. Can we be a reconciled human community in light of such realities?

The opportunity to come together before God and give thanks, not for selfish gain, but for His patience with any of us in our fallen state is worthwhile. I am an advocate of unity in efforts toward national thanksgiving.One would be hard pressed to find a culture for whom thanksgiving festivals or their equivalent are not part of the history.

For people in America, what do we do with this opportunity as a diverse nation to pause together before God? If we understand that prayer is an interactive communion in which we benefit as much from listening and waiting for God's responses as we do from raising our petitions and praise, we might all be humbled enough to receive his guidance toward justice and fulness of life in the world. We might be forgiven and forgiving people.

There are seasons for mourning and seasons for rejoicing. I hope Thanksgiving Day might usher in a season of humility and unity among people of this nation so that it is not a day to highlight divisions but for each person to humbly walk with God in gratitude for life and for each other. Further,I hope that it might be a day to pray together to God for visions of peaceful solutions to conflicts throughout the world.

In was in the aftermath of the battle at Gettysburg that Abraham Lincoln declared the last Thursday in November as the official Thanksgiving Day. His motivation was to promote unity despite the horrors of a war that pitted brother against brother.

If somehow, regardless of the burdens of history and despite our sometimes tragic choices, we can agree that on this one day we will all turn to God , perhaps a prolonged season of healing and visions for justice might follow.

Posted by: Marsha Hansen | November 19, 2007 1:30 PM

Payshun - What about the current Thanksgiving celebration is honoring killing or celebrating darkness? What is mythic about what children learn about "the first Thanksgiving?" Was it not true that the Pilgrims and others in their community, including American Indians, came together to celebrate and give thanks to God for their survival? There is nothing mythic about that. It happened. This is what kids are taught about Thanksgiving.

No, we don't spend Thanksgiving talking about the harsh things done to American Indians in the years to follow because it has absolutely NOTHING to do with Thanksgiving! It's another chapter in American history. It's like saying "We should talk about the horrible things people did in the name of Christ during the Middle Ages every Christmas."

Posted by: Eric | November 19, 2007 1:54 PM

Would France have been justified in a preemptive strike against America to take down Andrew Jackson? Our government was killing our own people, and we kept others in slavery. Also, France had every reason to believe we would attack their territories in the New World. Would America have been better off if France had invaded us and set up a true democracy based on the principles of their revolution?

I'm sure you will say the situation was entirely different and there is no comparison between the acts of 19th century America and modern day Iraq. It's not possible that Native Americans might see Andrew Jackson the way the Kurds saw Saddam Hussein.

Posted by: Ashpenaz | November 19, 2007 6:23 PM

I am personally ashamed what has happened to Native Americans in our history. Christopher C. was a real a**hole in my opinion. And that was after I read some history on the guy. "Greed of land and false superiority" - you're right is not Christ-like. The fact is, as you stated, that Native Americans Thanksgiving began way before the big ship floated over in 1960. Man I was taught in school that he, ol'Chris C. was the nicest chap ever. Now that's a myth!

I am so encouraged by your article and that you and your family will invite non-indians to your home and celebrate together. "Cultivate true freiendships." Learn from and about one another.I remember my first pow-wow! It was so neat. I went with my mother and her friend Lilia.

When I was in college and Native American drummer came in a drummed for the class (which was so moving - I cried) and he spoke to us about some Native American history - even in our own town. There were places I treaded over every day not knowing what was underneath because it was covered in concrete. But after that man came and talked - you can bet that when I tread on some of those areas that were built into parking lots, etc. I remember. Then I drive pass some other sacred ground that is very well kept. My heart wells up a bit.

I love how you mentioned that you have/give thanks everyday - through/in nature, etc. What an example. Thank you for article.

LOVE and PEACE

Posted by: Victoria | November 19, 2007 7:02 PM

Hmm. I know it is true that the white man took land that was "owned or used" by Indian tribes. I know that massacres took place - - everywhere from the Trail of Tears to Little Big Horn. (Oops!! maybe not so good an example, huh?) I know that white people had a tendency to understand that it was the "natural right" of western european immigrants to take what they needed, or wanted. I know those things are true, and they are sad historical facts.

However. . . I personally have never taken, from any man, something that I did not buy from him. I have not stolen land, goods, or services. I have certainly not mistreated Randy, or anyone of a minority race or creed during my life. I have never owned a slave; never will, either. Guaranteed.

So. . . I will celebrate Thanksgiving Day. I will celebrate it, because God "deserves" to be thanked. I owe Him a lot; my life, my very breath, my health, my thoughts, a lot. And I will not let the sad fact that others did horrible things to those who lived here, stop me. I will not take a guilt trip over that; I have enough to feel guilty about, from my own life. Thanks be to God for the efficacy of the Cross, which brings forgiveness to me, even in my guilt. Have a nice Thanksgiving holiday, everyone.

Posted by: joekc | November 19, 2007 7:27 PM

Moderatelad thank you for dedication to prayer !
Joekc, Eric, Marsha, Jeff, wildfan , thank you for your comments and reflections .

The facts left out of this gentlemans thoughts is the United States is the most "diverse" and most enduring Constitutionally Democracy in the History of the world . With may I add the higest standard of living for its citizens . This is better then Ireland where my grand parents came from , even today . Anyone
else want to brag about the value and quality of life from where their ancestors came from over ours ?
America became strong because of DEMOCRACY , SCIENCE , AND CAPITALISM . And a special people who embraced some traditional beliefs in the scriptures , which helped us through the times when we chose not to in other areas .

The simple fact is those three things have led us in the right direction , the Natives here treated wrongly , they also had a history of treating their own and their neigbors wrongly also .

We have a Constitution that has allowed us to improve with every generation , as long as democracy , science and capitalism is kept alive , and those of us with Belief from either side of the political spectrum stay involved , America will remain free.

The United States also has a history of liberating other countries from Tyrannical dictators . Americans have many common threads that unite us ,
.

Have a great Thanks Giving , hopefully with family and friends . God Bless ,

I am working , but actually am really thank full I ahve a job . So that is OK with me .

Posted by: Mick Sheldon | November 19, 2007 7:53 PM

http://www.manataka.org/page269.html

Eric,

Considering the massacres that preceded the great thanksgiving and the massacres that proceeded it. It's hard to just point to one momment in history and act like it's just about that.

p

Posted by: payshun | November 19, 2007 8:10 PM

I met Randy Woodley when I was attending All Tribes Community Church (Am. Baptist) in Tulsa, Oklahoma. I was in a special sweatlodge ceremony of men only from the church which honored him.
While he is a member of the "Keetoowah Band" of Cherokee Indians, the Keetoowah Band thinks they are more Cherokee than the members of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma. I belong to the latter organization. I get my Cherokee heritage through my maternal grandmother whose grandfather was an important person in the Cherokee Nation when he was living.
I thought there was something familiar about him and I had not seen him in over 10 years.
The Cherokee traditional thanksgiving was called (in English translation) "The Green Corn Festival." It was held when the corn was ripe and even tender enough to eat right off the cob.
My surname came over on the Mayflower. Edward Doty was on that ship but like half of the passengers, he was not a Pilgrim.
I don't celebrate "Turkey Day" which for many sports fans is just a day to eat and watch football all day.

Posted by: Joe Allen Doty | November 19, 2007 8:22 PM

No, I am not a Christian. I am a Deist. I pray in Thanksgiving to God the Creator, just as the author of the article does. But I believe there is only ONE God, and all who pray, pray to the same God.

Phat do you take into account people who pray to more then one god ? Or is that something a deist does not support ?

Posted by: Mick | November 19, 2007 10:13 PM

I was taught it.
I believe it.
That settles it.

And now, how about another verse of that rousing Christian anthem, "Climb, climb, up sunshine mountain!"

Posted by: canucklehead | November 20, 2007 12:29 AM

One other point, people need to look beyond clumping people together by race. It seems like some people take the attitude that "The Pilgrims and others on the Mayflower were white and from Europe, the people who came after them over the next 200 years were white and from Europe, therefore anyone white and from Europe is guilty of anything anyone else who's white and from Europe did." Yes, it's a simplification, but that is, in essence, what people are saying.

The Pilgrims (using this term for everyone on the Mayflower) aren't responsible for the people who followed them or that came before them. They are responsible for their own actions. They made peace with the Indians and celebrated with them. This peace between the Indians and "Pilgrims" lasted for decades. Others didn't make peace. Why the actions of others has to be wrapped into the Thanksgiving story of the Pilgrims and the Wampanoag Indians is beyond me. Why can't we use the story of the peace and celebration of Thanksgiving between these two groups as a model for how relations should be?

Posted by: Eric | November 20, 2007 9:33 AM

There is a backstory to Thanksgiving that you are ignoring to focus on 3 days of celebration. There is a story after that contexualizes and creates a very real sense of history. Just because those three days happened and were in effect the Wampanoags charity to the pilgrims doesn't mean it was this mythological coming together of the races. It was not.

Read the accounts from the Wampanoag nation and you will realize Wampanoags did not trust the pilgrim settlers. The relations were strained, massacres and disease happened before the pilgrims got there that made things difficult.

W/o Squanto those pilgrims would have probably died out. If we can't understand how our thanksgiving has been used to downplay the destructive influence of our pilgrim ancestors than we really are missing out on the true sense of gratitude we should have for the Wampanoag nation. They gave charity. Our gratefulness should be for their charity and not for the mytholgoical "peace" that lasted for such a short time and eventually led to the end of a people that had been on the land for 600 years. I hope that makes sense.

p

Posted by: payshun | November 20, 2007 11:05 AM

Payshun - I'm not clueless. You're the one ignoring my entire point: You can't blame the Pilgrims on the Mayflower for those who came after them or those who came before them, and there's no good reason to make Thanksgiving into a day of memorial and protests as you and Randy seem to want to do.

Yes, the Wampanoag were skeptical of the Pilgrims because of prior interactions with Europeans. They had a right to be. (The Pilgrims were also skeptical of the Indians as they'd heard stories of Indians killing Eurpeans, which did happen too).

But the Pilgrims are the people we're talking about in the Thanksgiving story, not the people who came before them! It's the Pilgrims and Wampanoag in this story that overcame their skepticism of each other, had the "first Thanksgiving" together, and lived in peace for decades. No one is denying the charity of the Indians. That was always part of the Thanksgiving story. This is what our Thanksgiving Day holiday is partly modeled after.

And your quote from a Wampanoag living today doesn't add anything to this discussion. He's upset his ancestors were wiped out. I am too, but it wasn't the Mayflower Pilgrims who did it. Even he doesn't put the blame on them.

Posted by: Eric | November 20, 2007 2:21 PM

"I'm not clueless. You're the one ignoring my entire point: You can't blame the Pilgrims on the Mayflower for those who came after them or those who came before them, and there's no good reason to make Thanksgiving into a day of memorial and protests as you and Randy seem to want to do."

I am not trying to blame them for the massacres before or after. They were starving and would have been wiped out. My point is that thanksgiving should be about honoring the Wamapoang today. they were the ones that brought life to the Pilgrims. That's one of my points

The other is that when a group of people move onto land that has been stolen or what have you they still have a responsibility to the land they have and to the descendants to remember and memorialize what else happened and sense Thanksgiving is as primarily a holiday designed to remember we should also remember the sacrifices that got us here. You have to take both. You just can't pick and choose.

That's what Randy and I are talking about.

p

Posted by: payshun | November 20, 2007 3:30 PM

Here is a story about the "Christian" Miles Standish of the Pilgrim company. I always wonder about the Christianity of murderers.

The Indians resolved to destroy them, but through the agency of Massasoit, a firm friend of the English, the conspiracy was revealed to the Plymouth people in time for Captain Standish to march there with a small company and avert the attack. When he arrived, his anger was fiercely kindled by the insolence of Pecksuot, the chief, and his followers. Pecksuot sharpened his knife in the presence of Standish and said, “Though you are a great captain, you are but a little man; and though I be no sachem, yet I am a man of great strength and courage.”(Our Countrymen, p.14).

Standish had the wisdom to check his resentment, but the next day, when the chief and a great number of his followers were in a room with the white people, the captain gave a signal, and five of the savages were killed. Standish snatched Pecksuot’s knife from him and with it slew its owner. When Mr. Robinson (the original Pastor of the Pilgrims, and who remained in Holland) heard of this event, he wrote to the Church of Plymouth to refrain from following Captain Standish because of his bad temper.

Posted by: Adrian Jacobs | November 20, 2007 4:33 PM

Phat: "No, I am not a Christian. I am a Deist. I pray in Thanksgiving to God the Creator, just as the author of the article does. But I believe there is only ONE God, and all who pray, pray to the same God."

Mick: "Phat do you take into account people who pray to more then one god ? Or is that something a deist does not support ?"
------------------------------------
Mick,

Deists believe in one God, the creator. We do not believe in "revelation" through holy books, but rather through God's signature - nature. We believe through reason, not faith.

I believe that we celebrate the same God, though in somewhat different ways, and different cultures name God according to their own language. Whether it is Wakantanka, Allah, Yahweh, or God, it doesn't matter. We acknowledge the Creator of the Universe, and our great debt to God.

No Deist would ever believe in multiple gods, no. Some Deists have a rather panentheistic approach, in that everything that exists is within God, but some Deists have a more traditional view of God.

We have no quarrel with science, and believe that science only shows us the greatness of God. HOW God did things may never be known, but certainly God works within the natural laws that he/she created. (Most of us do not believe that God has a male gender - or a female one, for that matter. But it doesn't feel right to call God "it".

As most of you know, Jefferson, Washington, Madison, Franklin, Paine, and other Founding Fathers were Deists. Probably they were "English" Deists, and I am somewhere between the English and French version, LOL.

We do not believe in the divinity of Jesus, but, like the Muslims, believe he was a great teacher. We don't buy into "original sin", nor the idea of the needfulness of sacrifice for it. There may be some Deists who adhere to English Deism who believe in heaven and hell, but most American Deists do not.

Having said that, I suppose you wonder why I am here on this blog. As I said, I much admire Wallis, and agree with much he says. I very much believe in the need to care for the less fortunate, and I believe in social justice and equity. I also believe we need to take care of this world - as it is the only one we have.

I have no quarrel with Christians - at least the ones who don't try to prosyletize me, LOL. I have worked on charitable projects with some wonderful Christians, and I think our concerns cross religious boundaries and strike common chords within all of us as human beings.

I firmly believe that people of all beliefs need to understand that those beliefs are our foundations, and that each cherishes his/her own faith. Instead of being critical, perhaps we can find common ground and work together for things we all believe in.

Posted by: Phat Khat | November 20, 2007 11:26 PM

I'll add that coming to terms with history doesn't mean assigning guilt or blame today. People sometimes have a hard time disentangling the two. Recognizing that some Pilgrims and European settlers in general were very cruel to Indians doesn't mean that those of use who are of European descent today have to feel any sort of shame or guilt for what our ancestors did. It's important to understand history as it explains present circumstances, but to use it as a wedge to assign blame to one group or the other is wrongheaded. Nobody is responsible for what their ancestors did.

Sometimes I think that as an American in the 21st century who values freedom, liberty and has a social conscience, I'd have more in common with a Iroquois Indian from the 16th century who was part of the 5 tribes federation, rather than an English settler who belived in the divine right of his king and belonged to a strict class-based society. Behind the feathers and tattoos, there would be a lot of common beliefs and values. Sometimes we Americans don't realize what a huge influence Indian notions of freedom and liberty had on the early colonists and the later fighters of independence and framers of the Constitution. That's something to be thankful for and remember this Thanksgiving. =]

Posted by: James Davies | November 21, 2007 2:39 PM

Let's remember that the Pilgrims were people who were persecuted in Europe for trying to worship Christ as they saw fit. They were arrested, tortured, killed and exiled. They tried twice to get here. Go to Plymouth sometime and take a look at what they used to cross the ocean.

Their Thanksgiving was a recognition that even when we have nothing we have everything in God and Jesus Christ. They still thanked their God after their population was decimated by half that first winter. They overcame their unspeakable grief to express their continued faith in God.

Randy has plenty to be upset about, but here his anger is misdirected.

Blessings of Thanksgiving on us all. Let us put aside our suffering and our loss and find solace in the love of Jesus.

Mark

Posted by: Mark Madison | November 21, 2007 5:41 PM

Within a short time, the Pilgrims called another feast they invited the Indians to - and where they poisoned 350 of them.

Within a few years, they purchased slaves from the Portuguese and began the American practice of slavery. This was in order to gain wealth from creating the tobacco industry which proved enormously profitable as more and more people bacame addicted in Europe.

One huge psychological and theological issue with giving thanks for great material blessings is that the temptation is to assume that God rewards the righteous with great abundance and wealth.Therefore, looking around we assume that wealth is the great reward for being true to Jesus - when it might rather have been accomplished by any number of means that are as far from Christ as darkness is from light. It then becomes a stumbling block.

We also thereby assume, that because we have been blessed by God with wealth and power - because of our goodness - that those who don't have those things or from whom we may have taken them by force were similarly cursed for their unrighteousness - and therefore, we can say without guilt, "The Greatest Nation the World Has Ever Seen!"

Be careful lest Thanksgiving isn't really giving thanks to the Creator but rather a prideful celebration of how pleased God is with us and how well we do deserve it all.

That is a convenient conceit which allows us to look the other way to the truth of not only our sin as Christians, but to turn a blind eye to the fallen nature of the body politic of whom the majority, after all, have never been Christian at all, simply because we can thereby justify and enjoy the spoils of their worldliness.

Thanksgiving is a national holiday, but it must be more than that to Christians if we are to be acceptable to God.

Posted by: Sojourner Truth | November 22, 2007 2:38 AM

Maybe it would be a good idea to set aside a day for mourning and atonement as well as one for Thanksgiving.
I think it would be great as long as it was also secret.
Nothing could be done in the open or for attention. No tax credits given, no rewards but those in heaven.
Just a day when we could do something to say we are sorry for both our sins and those of our fathers and mothers, regardless of race or creed. A day to seriously consider the grace of God for us and our parents and our neighbors. A day to come to grips with the sadness of sin's consequences and try to lighten the load for another.

Posted by: wayne | November 22, 2007 10:32 AM

please kindly let me know the date americans celeberate thanks giving day.

Posted by: WILLIAM | March 20, 2008 9:00 AM