More War Stories from Christian Soldiers (by Shane Claiborne)
Like Logan Laituri, I spent my Veteran's Day honoring one of my favorite Veterans – Martin of Tours. I spoke at the magnificent St. Peter's Cathedral here in Philadelphia on Sunday, and did my best to honor Martin's life and remember the millions of soldiers who have felt the collision of the cross and sword. A few thoughts from those reflections…
Martin was born during a confusing and tumultuous time in Christian history, in an age when war had become normal, routine, and habitual. And God's "blessing" was all over it. Martin was born four years after Constantine's legendary conversion which would mark the time when the renegade movement became the conquering State religion. During that century Christianity spread from 5 million to 30 million – everyone was a Christian, but no one really knew what a Christian disciple was anymore. The persecuted became the persecutors … and exchanged the cross of the martyrs for the sword of the soldiers.
And into this world, Martin was born. He was named after Mars, the god of war. His dad was a veteran, in fact a senior officer, of the Roman Army. And, like many of our kids, Martin entered the service as a young teenager to fight the crusades of the empire. And then there was an interruption.
Outside the gates of Amiens in modern-day France, Martin had a human encounter that would forever change him. He met a scantly-clothed beggar and was deeply moved with compassion. With very little to give away, he took off his military cloak and cut it in half, giving half to the beggar. Then he laid down his arms saying, "I am a Christian. I cannot fight." Later he would be taken to jail, insulted, and persecuted for deserting the army.
Over and over, the wars of nations have been interrupted by those human encounters. Centuries later, another young soldier named Francis of Assisi would lay down his weapons of war in the middle of the crusades to meet with the Muslim sultan. And that encounter would forever change him and the sultan. And now that same collision is happening in soldiers all over our empire who have laid down their weapons to take up the cross, to take up the Gospel of enemy-love and follow the Prince of Peace. Logan, Jesse, Zach, Scott, Chris, Tracey … and the list goes on and on. In fact, these former soldiers of war are building an army of conscientious objectors. We have now created a resource they have creatively named "Centurion's Purse" to help soldiers who feel the same call of Martin: "I am a Christian. I cannot fight." As a son of a Vietnam vet, I can think of no better way to celebrate Veteran's Day than by honoring them.
I am also reminded that when the prophets speak of peace, it does not begin with the nations. It begins with God's people who refuse to fight the wars of nations. It is the people of God who lead the nations to peace. It is people who refuse to kill their enemies, but choose instead to love them and to feed and clothe them. And the nations will follow. It is the people who begin to beat swords into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks. It is people like Martin who tear their armor in half so a beggar can keep warm.
Shane Claiborne is a Red Letter Christian, author of The Irresistible Revolution: Living as an Ordinary Radical, and a founding partner of The Simple Way community, a radical faith community that lives among and serves the homeless in the Kensington neighborhood of Philadelphia.
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Comments
Thank you Shane for educating us (Christians) about our heritage and reminding us that we are first and foremost citizens of the Kingdom of God. And thank you for the peaceful ways in which you prophetically call us back to the foundations of our faith.
By the way, everyone should read Shane's book, it confronts us with some of the most challenging passages of Scripture, forcing us to evaluate our lives in light of the cross.
Posted by: Scot McClamma | November 12, 2007 5:37 PM
Shane, you really have been an inspiration in my life. Thank you for bringing to light the radical transformation of soldiers realizing Gods love in a backwards world. You have challenged me on many points. thanks
Posted by: evan | November 12, 2007 6:57 PM
While Shane is certainly entitled to be a pacifist, I do not believe this to be a consistent Christian position. I believe that because there is evil in the world, it must be violently restrained. I see no reason why Christians, if they are to be involved in other sectors of public life, should not be involved in this crucial area of warmaking.
Posted by: Ben Wheaton | November 12, 2007 7:09 PM
Thanks for the important message. I pray that Sojourners will become truly convicted by the Prince of Peace, and will do more holding up of witnesses for peace and stop praising politicians who want to increase the size of the military. Sojourners has seemed conflicted about whether to be Constantinian or Christian. You can not serve two masters. I realize it's awfully tempting to be connected to political power, but you lose your soul by focusing on that.
Posted by: Bill Samuel | November 12, 2007 7:15 PM
Thanks so much for a well written and well documented piece, Shane. It's a welcome counterweight to Uncle Sam's traditional public profile.
Posted by: canucklehead | November 12, 2007 7:41 PM
I believe that because there is evil in the world, it must be violently restrained
Are Christians to:
1. fight hate with hate
2. fight hate with love
If #1, is "the Christian way" any different from the secular way?
Posted by: D4P | November 12, 2007 8:00 PM
The War Jesus way is not substantially different from any other politico-religious movement that views violence, death and destruction as redemptive.
Remarkably, radical Islam believes that salvation's achieved through dying in Holy War killing infidels.
How is this different from Focus on the Family's promotion of the idea that soldiers who die fighting enemies in battle are making the same sacrifice Jesus did by dying on the cross for our salvation?
Posted by: Anonymous | November 12, 2007 8:11 PM
In answer to D4P, Christians are to fight hate with love. And love, lest we forget, sometimes involves going to war. Aquinas defined just war as an act of love, to defend the powerless against evil. Although always admixed with the sinfulness of man, there are such things as just causes for war, and they come about with more frequency than Sojourners admits.
To the last anonymous poster, there is every difference between the two. Radical (and also not-so-radical) Islam believes that engaging in physical jihad will lead to surety of eternal bliss; Focus on the Family was saying that soldiers are doing in a certain sense what Christ did: giving up their lives so that others might live. Therefore, they deserve our respect and thanks. The comparison between Focus and Al Qaeda is obnoxious and odious.
Posted by: Ben Wheaton | November 12, 2007 8:59 PM
That any person would actually offer up a coward and a deserter as an example of someone to be honored on Veteran's Day is entirely repulsive!
Posted by: Bradley | November 12, 2007 9:33 PM
Veterans Day is a US holiday for service personal that faught to protect our country. Some old Saint from France is a nice story but really has little to do with our country. But this is most likely the best that Sojo can come up with. Sad.
Blessings -
.
Posted by: Moderatelad | November 12, 2007 9:43 PM
Today, I took my family to a parade where I watched old men who spent the prime of life fighting an evil dictator who sent 6 Million Jews to the gas chambers and to ovens to be tormented and killed simply because of their race. I watched men who were permanently disabled while in their teens fighting a war to protect the freedom of people they didn't even know in East Asia. I saw a gruff old man moved to tears at the sight of my 3 year old daughter waiving a flag and telling him "Thank you!" True heroes are in every town around this country and all this punk could write about on a day meant to honor America's veterans was a coward. What an arrogant, ungrateful, inconsiderate fool! Claiborne and those who agree with him deserve the tyranny and slavery that they would be living under were it not for the young men who sacrificed so much for this nation.
Posted by: Bradley | November 12, 2007 9:43 PM
Notice the warlike people (who are so unlike Christ, whose commands they scoff at) are insulting, dismissive and generally show an unChristlike character.
Instead of disparaging and wishing evil so much upon those they call fools for trying to live out what Christ had commanded those who know his voice, better for them to spend their time elsewhere celebrating their gods (and dogs) of war.
There are plenty of belligerent, angry , jingoistic and militaristic blogs and sites to choose from, in whatever nation whose dominance is wished to be promoted, so why waste all that pent-up hatred here against people you consider foolish pacifists?
Or are you volunteers or paid, to try to disrupt what the powers that be are very much afraid of?
(BTW, America did not come to the aid of those 6 million who perished in Europe, though FDR was well aware of what was going on - and America turned back refugees during that time, dooming more to die. America only entered the war a long two years after there was war in Europe being fought by England, alone, when Japan sunk some of the Pacific fleet at the conquered kingdom of Hawaii, and then Hitler decided to declare war as soon as Japan and America got into theirs. Once again, only strategic interest, not the love of suffering humanity, was the impetus for war.)
Posted by: Anonymous | November 12, 2007 10:34 PM
It is telling that the War Jesus promoters (you have to destroy the village to save the village tough-love types) have to say that Focus on the Family has been equated with a terrorist organization. Such pejorative deceptions I guess are part and parcel of people so pumped up with self-righteousness that they can't respond in truth.
They don't deny that they believe that soldiers who kill are indeed equivalent to Christ and his gift of salvation. Yet this is plain heresy.
Jesus Himself suffered the same rejection these folk are piling upon those who try to be peacemakers as He commanded: he was reviled as a coward and deserter for not taking up the cause of liberation of Israel from Rome using military means.
It is humanly much easier to have a machinegun shoved in your hands and told to go out and kill or be killed, than subject yourself to the recrimination, hatred and even ultimately violence from your own side for acting according to conscience.
It really is too bad that killing other human beings is considered to be the noblest calling of human beings, and even more dismal when people are informed that this is what Christ commanded them, as if he were some sort of western incarnation of the sword-wielding prophet - which He, the Prince of Peace, is not!
Posted by: Anonymous | November 12, 2007 10:46 PM
"How is this different from Focus on the Family's promotion of the idea that soldiers who die fighting enemies in battle are making the same sacrifice Jesus did by dying on the cross for our salvation?"
Hmmm.... Some questions for you.
1) Where did FOTF say this?
2) Do you believe that our soldiers are making a sacrifice when they die fighting enemies in battle?
3) Is this sacrifice more or less noble than the sacrifice made by those who fight in the name of exteme Islam?
"BTW, America did not come to the aid of those 6 million who perished in Europe, though FDR was well aware of what was going on"
FDR was a horrendous president.
Posted by: kevin s. | November 12, 2007 10:51 PM
For you brave anonymous posters, could you please set aside your disdain for the war on Terror, if only for a day, and honor the men and women who have fought to make you free. If you have a problem with the Iraq War, blame the politicians who sent the military there, but at least honor the men and women who have gone. If you can't do that, at least honor men and women who fought against evil in previous wars. For the love of God, stop using a day meant to honor veterans as an opportunity to berate them! They have been through enough already!!!
Posted by: Bradley | November 13, 2007 12:06 AM
The time to assert yourself to be a Conscientious Objector is before you join any service, or you could join as a Chaplin’s assistant. However, if you joined as a warrior, then you are expected to carry out your orders by God himself. Consider the following scriptures;
Titus 3:1; Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
Mark 12:17; And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.
De 23:23; That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.
SO;
When a person raises their right hand and swares to defend their country, they make a vow unto the Lord, because they end their utterance with “So help me God.”
Posted by: drawkcab | November 13, 2007 12:45 AM
Read Focus on the Family's Citizen Magazine. Those assertions are made in articles on Arlington National Cemetery; but by no means limited to that article - it's a constant theme.
The Patriot Pastor movement appears to have a lot to do with this new emphasis on military sacrifice being equivalent to that of Christ. FOTF
has progressively grown more militant since the move of the ministry to Colorado Springs. Many in the movement believe that the military is the last undefiled sector of American society, best reflecting the highest religious and conservative values lost to the mainstream. However, this view is not a realistic one for anyone who has served - the military is not particularly Christian in terms of the ethics of the people in it and it is reflective of the morality present in the larger society, even if it is more conservative politically.
Is the sacrifice made by soldiers more or less noble than that of Jesus on the cross? Again, trying to change the argument to somehow egregiously make the accusation of treason is disingenuous.
Someone else said any vow to God must be kept no matter what. If one vows to God to commit what one discovers later to be sin, would God require it be fulfilled? In other words, should Saul's vow to God to zealously kill Christians still have been kept after his Road to Damascus conversion?
Any Christian who thinks killing people he does not even know, including the "collateral damage" of civilians, who are always the greatest number of casualties, is somehow fulfilling Christ's command to love our enemies is deceived.
He may be fulfilling the command of an army commander or a government (and that may result in the anomaly of Christian killing Christian for their paricular Caesars) but not what Jesus commanded.
Let's be honest and admit that if it's what we want to do, it certainly has nothing to do with the Jesus of the Bible and is contrary to His clear teachings.
Now it is certainly true that any religion that does not support the civil governments' penchant for warfare will be very unpopular. That is why Rome martyred Christians in massive numbers until the 4th century, when Rome co-opted a form of Christianity into its civil power religion. Before that time, Christians never served in the military and suffered torture and death for their refusal.
Any familiarity with the martyrs of the early church bears this out. It might be an inconvenient truth, but it is the truth nevertheless. "Christian" Rome behaved no differently from pagan Rome - Christianity jumped immediately in numbers from 5 million to 30 million - with 25 million new Roman believers who offered their first allegiance to the emperor and the state.
Posted by: Anonymous | November 13, 2007 2:19 AM
anonymous wrote:
"Now it is certainly true that any religion that does not support the civil governments' penchant for warfare will be very unpopular. That is why Rome martyred Christians in massive numbers until the 4th century, when Rome co-opted a form of Christianity into its civil power religion. Before that time, Christians never served in the military and suffered torture and death for their refusal."
Umm, no. There were Christians in the Roman army, and Rome did not persecute Christianity because they refused to serve (in any case, Rome's army was volunteer). In fact, the first real systematic persecution was done because Christian soldiers refused to worship the emperor, Diocletian, and the generals of the units they were part of were suspicious of them. Thus one of the first major edicts of Diocletian's persecution was banning Christians from joining the army.
Note what John the Baptist told soldiers who came to him to be baptized: "Don't steal, be content with your pay." He didn't tell them to quit.
Posted by: Ben Wheaton | November 13, 2007 6:51 AM
Donny,
Since when do Christians base their actions on what Muslims believe or don't believe? Who should our example be? And if He truly is our example, what should our actions be (regardless of what Muslims believe)?
Posted by: squeaky | November 13, 2007 9:27 AM
I have a question for the group... Is joining the military, with the assumption that you could be sent to war, inconsistent with Christian teaching?
On a lighter note, Shane needs to get a new picture. He does great work social justice work in Philly, but someone at Sojo should do a little justice for Shane and get a better one.
Posted by: Eric | November 13, 2007 9:40 AM
Posted by: squeaky | November 13, 2007 9:27 AM
So when Christ cleaned out the Temple - that would give us permission to clean out areas of our world where people have caused problems?
The War of Terror is not a 'holy war' like it is for some of the Islamist. It is making the world a safer place for all concerned.
Blessings -
.
Posted by: Moderatelad | November 13, 2007 9:51 AM
To whoever is/are writing the posts that defend the pacifist position:
You would have more credibility if you identified yourself in some way. I find your writing coherent and even persuasive, but it lacks credibility because of your unwillingness to put a name to it.
Just a thought.
And to those who disdain and dismiss the pacifist position:
You are just bellyaching that those who take the pacifist position don't honor those in uniform. The best honor we could bestow on our military would be if they never had to go to war, especially to go to wrongheaded and unjust wars. Don't ever forget that Veterans Day was originally Armistice Day, the day we commemorated a peace treaty. Veterans Day was never meant to become a mouthpiece for those who wanted to glorify war.
And yes, the glorification of war, at least in the American nationalist religion, does indeed involve a belief that our freedoms are secured through human sacrifice. Does Christian theology support such a notion?
Peace,
D
Posted by: Don | November 13, 2007 9:54 AM
Moderatelad,
"So when Christ cleaned out the Temple - that would give us permission to clean out areas of our world where people have caused problems?"
Is this your theological basis for war? I think you are stretching your theology just a bit.
Posted by: squeaky | November 13, 2007 10:48 AM
Posted by: squeaky | November 13, 2007 10:48 AM
You know - I am not going to get into a snit about this one. I believe as Chuck Colson has stated that we justified in our actions according to St. Augustine. (regardless of what St Wallis says) We are there and need to see it through. Once that is done - not sure what I believe we should do. But I am thinking that I will never support another armed conflict no matter what. My attitude right now is they can fly a plane into St Peters in Rome and I would not support going into armed conflict. I believe that we should bring our military home and then dismantle it so that we no longer have the ability to go into armed conflict. Put 'peace symbols' around the borders of our country so that everyone knows that we desire peace and will not cause war for any reason. SO - how long do you think we will be able to remain a free nation? But - we will be people of peace. I believe that we will be a nation that will be under domination of another nation or people group. The way Wallis and Co write - they would not support any of the wars that we have been involved with in the past. Independance - Civic - WWI - WWII - none of them. So if Wallis wants to be the mouth-piece for the Christian Faith. He better be willing to speak from another country that will offer him sancutrary or do the UBL things and send out video tapes from his hiding place.
Blessings -
.
Posted by: moderatelad | November 13, 2007 11:06 AM
"I believe as Chuck Colson has stated that we justified in our actions according to St. Augustine." Mod Lad
So now St. Augustine speaks with the same authority as Jesus?
Posted by: canucklehead | November 13, 2007 11:52 AM
Posted by: canucklehead | November 13, 2007 11:52 AM
No - but this site has pushed St A for a long time a very long time. I try to make it a habit to not speak for the Almighty.
Blessings -
.
Posted by: Moderatelad | November 13, 2007 12:17 PM
Once again, Just War Theory is blithely invoked as a Hail Mary Pass, without any attempt whatsoever to analyze to see if the criteria are met.
I doubt our posters can even enumerate those criteria. It's easier just to assert it conveniently and uncritically - and glibly.
The position that Christians always went to war and killed is an unexamined assertion too, without serious historical basis. He is correct that not participating in the national religion did subject one to persecution. I note that some here express extreme hostility to those who question our own national religion, heaping wishes for evil things to happen to them.
I guess some are saying, "I already know what I believe - don't confuse me with the facts."
The truth of the matter is that both before and after, respectively few and none of Augustine's requirements for Just War were met.
For proof, note that those invoking Just War Theory have never been courageous enough to post just how it has been fulfilled according to the necessary criteria. Please do so our admit it's wishful thinking.
Even on the completely amoral evaluation that Sun Tzsu provides in The Art of War, a required text in military academies, our shame is that from the very practical and time-tested precepts for conducting war therein, our strategy and tactics have been wrong. As in Viet Nam, the military leadership that vowed never again to allow it to be so mislead has failed to stand up and speak truth to power.
Things are pretty fouled up and there is neither moral nor military clarity.
Posted by: Anonymous | November 13, 2007 12:46 PM
Those of Muslim background who come to Christ, despite every practical threat to physical well-being, do so because of the clear difference between Mohammed and Jesus in regards to wielding the sword or not and acting in love rather than hate.
These people suffer incredible persecution. Their stories remind one of the sacrifices made by the early martyrs.
Brother Andrew, known formerly as "God's Smuggler" for his underground activities in getting the gospel into formerly communist eastern Europe and the Soviet Union, has written "Secret Believers - What Happens When Muslims Believe in Christ."
This is a most powerful indictment against the idea that violence, bullets and bombs will somehow result in salvation. Quite the contrary, it acts in the devil's interest to make it almost impossible for that to happen.
The sacrifice that Muslim background believers have to make, with little help from us and often hindrance, puts us to shame. These people love Jesus so much they are willing to die for Him.
Are you, or I, as willing to take up Jesus' cross as we are to take up arms?
The answer appears so far to be mostly a shameful, "No."
Posted by: N.M Rod | November 13, 2007 12:57 PM
Moderatelad, once again, offers us a false choice: either we dismantle our military and refuse ever to engage in armed conflict, and thus eventually find ourselves under the thumb of some future tyrant and hiding out in caves somewhere like Bin Laden; or else we blindly accept whatever warmongering our leaders want for whatever reason(s) just because they say we need to do it.
Even I can apprehend that there just might be other choices for Christians besides roll-over-and-play-dead pacifism (and BTW, my understanding of what pacifists really teach doesn't follow that script) on the one hand and rapacious warmongering on the other.
Maybe Christians are to be strong witnesses for peace and for making all effot to avoid armed conflict. Maybe Christians are to accept going to war only as an absolute last resort when all other efforts to secure peace and avoid conflict have been tried. The Christian witness on warfare has always been that it is sinful. Augustine and others have argued that it is sometimes necessary. But nonetheless, it's sinful, even when necessary.
Gosh! Maybe that's rather close to my understanding of Sojourners' view. Imagine that!
The criteria for determining whether a contemplated military action is just are very specific AND very demanding. Unfortunately, too often, "Is this a just war?" has turned into, "This war is justified," without seriously examining whether the criteria have been met.
If a nation goes to war with hubris rather than repentance in its heart, we can be quite sure that the criteria for just war have not been examined carefully.
I wonder whether it's possible for a nation to have a trained, capable, and ready military while at the same time restraining oneself not to pick a fight at everything that goes wrong? Hmmm, Switzerland hasn't been involved in armed conflict for 200 years, yet their military preparedness is legendary. This alone refutes Moderatelad's false choice.
Peace,
Peace,
Posted by: Don | November 13, 2007 1:27 PM
The War of Terror is not a 'holy war' like it is for some of the Islamist. It is making the world a safer place for all concerned.
Blessings
Posted by: Moderatelad | November 13, 2007 9:51 AM
Most analysists in the UK think that the way Bush and co have orchestrated this so called "War on Terror " has increased the risk of terrorist acivity rather than decreased it and made many otherwise moderate muslims into activists against perceived American imperialism.
I happen to believe that the invasion of Iraq was both illegal and unnecessary and that the US and UK governments lied about the facts. I don't dispute that many individual soldiers that serve there are motivated by a sense of patriotism and may well behave responsibly although Abu Graib, Haditha and many many other similar incidents clearly show that this is not always the case. While acknowledging those military personel who do behave honourably and well, one has to accept that even in a just war scenario, war is always the lesser of 2 evils and not something that should ever be glorified as these parades etc seem to do.
Within my own family I had one grandfather who was a Christian pacifist and was prepared to go to prison rather than fight during the Great War and one grandfather who was gassed in the trenches of France and never fully recovered. During the second world war my father was evacuated from the beaches near Dunkirk and later served in India. Another relative was a conscientious objector and worked on the land. Both positions are eqally valid ones for Christians to adopt providing they have prayed and thought through the options and acknowledged that their choice can never be 100% right but only what is in their understanding the lesser of 2 evils.
Posted by: Annie (UK) | November 13, 2007 1:39 PM
...and Switzerland could have, from their safe haven, mounted expeditions all over the world, much as we have done from the safety of "Fortress America."
There have been no military campaigns not threat of any aimed at a takeover or occupation of America since 1812 - almost 200 years - and that was a continuation of the family feud with England.
So just what are we up to? Hmm.
Posted by: Anonymous | November 13, 2007 1:45 PM
Posted by: frankly crapra | November 13, 2007 12:50 PM
Cute picture - I am sure that is how you see everyone that you do not want to deal with. It makes life easier for you doesn't it.
I am a husband and father that works two jobs. Very involved with my kids education and sporting events. I also assist a number of NFP's in my area that deal with at risk kids in education and have POA for my mother who is dealing with Alheimziers. And yes - I am the world's worst spellier. I have an inquiring mind and like to know what the other side is thinking - saying - doing.
I do not drink big-glups from 7-11, have not had a TV dinner in decades. %^&* - I don't even like Roller Derby. I have all my own teeth and have lost over 40 lbs in the past 3+ months. I have enjoyed a beer with kevin s and know that he is not Donny.
I find it interesting that Wallis is 'trying' to make us more 'purple' rahter than left or right. (he is about as purple as my lilly white backside) I believe that we could work together on several issues that Wallis gives lips service to on this site. But his assessment is that just about everything is the fault of G W Bush or conservatives. Fawell - Dobson - Kennedy are the shame of the Christian Faith. (two down one to go and Sojo has a Hat Trick)
I have amde my attempt to come to center on several issues and no one from the 'blue' side will take a step my direction. (even on abortion) So - believe whatever makes you happy and allows you to handle life your way. I will deal with issues that make a difference in peoples lives even if it is one at a time.
Sorry to burst your bubble - kevin s and myself are a little more complicated than you want to believe. But thats OK - just listen to the little voices in your head.
Blessings - (whatever)
.
Posted by: moderatelad | November 13, 2007 1:57 PM
Today, I took my family to a parade where I watched old men who spent the prime of life fighting an evil dictator who sent 6 Million Jews to the gas chambers and to ovens to be tormented and killed simply because of their race.
Posted by: Bradley | November 12, 2007 9:43 PM
I don't think the US or Britain for that matter went to war because of the German concentration camps which both our governments knew about from the early 1930's. In fact many more Jews could have been saved if both our countries had allowed more Jewish families in as immigrants. In fact we allied with an equally evil dictator (Stalin) to achieve our own political objectives and in 1945 abandonded half of Europe to Russian rule. Perhaps we had no choive but let's at least be honest about why nations fight; it's for economic power and self-interest not for universal freedom and democracy. In 1945 Britain still had an Empire ruled from London much of which in Africa and Asia had little political freedom or self determination. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe in the USA it was not until the 1960's that many people in the Southern States were actually allowed to vote......simply because of race.......although I believe they were allowed to fight for their country, which treated them as 3rd class citizans as the British did their Indian, African, West Indian and Maori troops and airmen.
It is good to remember the suffering of those who fought and died on all sides of any conflict but never to glorify war in any way.
Posted by: Annie (UK) | November 13, 2007 2:05 PM
Wow, Moderatelad, talk about reading a lot into my comments to both you and Donny. I didn't ask you about any of that at all. Please just stick with the actual questions.
Posted by: squeaky | November 13, 2007 2:09 PM
Donny, I'm a member of Centurion's Purse. First, I reject your over simplified options concerning Islam (fight or flight). Those who fought peacefully against oppressive regimes have taught us their are other options then roll over or kill. Second, call me a fundamentalist (perhaps it is the evangelical in me) but I would prefer Christians to love their enemies as Jesus commands his followers. Drawkcab, "The time to assert yourself to be a Conscientious Objector is before you join any service" - take this up with the military that respects the service member's decision to C.O. after they have enlisted or been commissioned.
"What's the difference? We're no better than them if our definition of "loving our enemies" does not preclude killing them."
Yes, as John H. Yoder would say - when Christians resort to violence "the world will conclude that there is nothing new about Christ and the Church is just another sociological reflection of the world."
Peace to all...
Posted by: Zach | November 13, 2007 2:27 PM
Posted by: squeaky | November 13, 2007 10:48 AM
Is this your theological basis for war? I think you are stretching your theology just a bit.
A bit - like a lot of the other people on this site. This is not a 'holy war' to me. I believe that it is for the radical Islamists but not me.
Blessings -
.
Posted by: Moderatelad | November 13, 2007 3:18 PM
Posted by: | November 13, 2007 2:36 PM
Unless you are willing to give us a name or a handle to identify you - I will not comment.
Blessings - whomever you are
.
Posted by: moderatelad | November 13, 2007 3:34 PM
Ahhh, yes, Mick. You can't argue coherently against Sojourners' ideas, so you resort to the old ad hominem. Disparage their character and you can dismiss their arguments. How convenient.
At any rate, Discoverthenetworks appears to be just another right-wing smear organization that has refined the aforementioned ad hominem approach to an art form. Their purpose, according to SourceWatch, is to "track 'the left' and terrorists, with an implicit connection between the two... Overall, DTN is a Smear Portal on academics, journalists, and activists on the left. It is a website where all the smears and red baiting that can be found in FrontPageMag, Campus Watch, and similar-ilk-organizations are put under one roof for 'research'".
Their discussion of Sojourners is full of name-calling and labeling. Same as Mick Sheldon's posts. Little scholarship in evidence. Definitely a site worth ignoring.
Peace,
Posted by: Don | November 13, 2007 4:18 PM
In this morning's Lexington Herald-Leader was the story of James Blake Miller, a Marine from Eastern Kentucky. Miller took part in the battle of Fallujah in 2004 and became famous when his photo appeared on the cover of newspapers. The 'rest of the story' is of how he has suffered PTSD, a marriage and divorce within the last couple of years, and numbs his pain with constant drinking. Some soldiers deal with the horror of war and seem to go on with their lives. Some, like Miller, suffer psychological wounds that devestate their ability to function in relationships or to be employed. I wept when I read the story this morning. Lives like his (and his wife's) are broken because of the evil of war.
Posted by: Sam Pendergrast | November 13, 2007 5:24 PM
I spent my Veterans Day talking to and interviewing three USS LIBERTY Vets for an ongoing series of articles I am writing that will turn into my 3rd book:
"IT WAS GOD THAT KEPT THE LIBERTY AFLOAT"
WAWA Blog Veteran's Day:
The Torpedo that Hit the USS LIBERTY: Made in the USA?
WAWA Blog November 6, 2007:
Honoring LIBERTY and Calling for a Second American Revolution!
WAWA Blog November 5, 2007:
Veterans Day is a week away, Remember LIBERTY
WAWA BLOG:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Posted by: Eileen Fleming | November 13, 2007 5:32 PM
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1833
Above is the direct link to the 'discover the networks' article about Wallis. Interesting to say the least.
Blessings -
.
Posted by: Moderatelad | November 13, 2007 6:08 PM
Ahhh, yes, Mick. You can't argue coherently against Sojourners' ideas, so you resort to the old ad hominem. Disparage their character and you can dismiss their arguments. How convenient.
Oh Don the shill , great come back . As if your comments are anything but ?
Don proves my point by saying
"At any rate, Discoverthenetworks appears to be just another right-wing smear organization that has refined the aforementioned ad hominem approach to an art form."
Oh , and what was it that you disagreed with , so far your smearing . Thats all .
Don gives all the facts in his opinion by saying
"Their purpose, according to SourceWatch, is to "track 'the left' and terrorists, with an implicit connection between the two... Overall, DTN is a Smear Portal on academics, journalists, and activists on the left. It is a website where all the smears and red baiting that can be found in FrontPageMag, Campus Watch, and similar-ilk-organizations are put under one roof for 'research'"."
And Don the smeam mesiter , what did they say you disagreed with ?
Don blatered on
"Their discussion of Sojourners is full of name-calling and labeling. Same as Mick Sheldon's posts. "
And the name calling given and smear , so far you have done it all .
Little scholarship in evidence. Definitely a site worth ignoring.
Peace,
Posted by: Don
peace after that , obviously a well thought out post .
Posted by: Mick Sheldon | November 13, 2007 6:09 PM
Look, pointing out our own hypocrisies doesn't obviate the fact that this is typical sinful behavior found in all human beings, everywhere and always.
Why in the world truths can't be told because they have to be deflected by saying, "Don't look at my sins! His! His! His!" is not even beginning the milk of Christianity, let alone the meat.
You don't not become a Christian when you're confronted with your own sins and the need for acknowledgment and repentance by saying, "Wait a sec! I'm NOT so bad! Look at them - or them - or them! Worse I tell ya! Worse! I'm alright Jack! Let HIM come first, then maybe I'll consider it. I'll get back to ya, God! Don't call me, I'll call you! Later, big Dude!!! I'm outa here!"
If we have to wait to follow Jesus for everybody else to do so first, then let's be honest and say let's give up the playacting and have the courage to admit we are what we are and we don't give a rat's ass about anything but our own comfort and selfishness.
No dying to self, no taking up the cross - it's all about me.
We're encouraging lots of people to die for our way of life - anybody ready to literally give up his life for bringing people to Christ?
Didn't think so!
Posted by: N.M. Rod | November 13, 2007 6:27 PM
Are Christians to:
1. fight hate with hate
2. fight hate with love
If #1, is "the Christian way" any different from the secular way?
Posted by: D4P
What I find missing from your perspective is that you believe all wars are fought with hate ? I witness Veterans Celebration Monday where their were Tuskagee Airmen and various vets who served this country and believed they were serving to support peace , freedom and liberty . They were some who were treated unfairly because of their race , economic status or for other reasons by their nation , but chose to step up and defend what they believed America stood for , and eventually may become .
You may disagree with say liberating Europe , and the motives , but you really have no right to assume these men and women who sacrificed or all the leaders of this nation believe they were fighting hate with hate .
.
It wrong to say thatthe reasons were for poor motives that soldiers and wars are all fought , and yes your beliefs are important to be respected also . Your as wrong as Don and others who assume the worse of all motives from the right , or many who believe the worse of all motives from the left .
America does stand for freedom , opportunity and doing what is right to the vast majority of us . What other nation shows its pimples and wrongs so out in the open ? We want to what is right , why else would you be so passionate ? Or why I am offended when you accuse others of represnting hate ? Of course you or I do not represent hate or use it for our motive. We both want to be fair ,we both want to promote fairness.
and yes America has had our share of doing what was wrong for peace and even freedom . But the majority of us , left or right want to support peace , only use war when its the very very last resort . To stop evil from moving on to others , and destroying them . Its one thing to turn your cheek , and its another to loose your life for the sake of your Faith , but I do believe as a Christian , and one who loves our brothers and sisters and Gods Creation , don't we also have a responsibility to defend life at some point ? Even if that means you have to stop a force by means of force . If you agree with that , then we are really disagreeing when that force is to be used . Then I am open to all your comments , if you believe we are never to use force to stop evil , all I can say is I believe you are hurting the expansion of The Gospek more then showing the love in the Gospel ?
We need your voice to keep America zeroed in on doing right , but your belief all motives are dirt and hatefull that disagree with yours is just as much as group think as you accuse the warmongers of .
May God Bless America , and may we be worthy of that Blessing .
Posted by: Mick Sheldon | November 13, 2007 6:32 PM
Moderlatelad (satiracally) wrote:
"I believe that we should bring our military home and then dismantle it so that we no longer have the ability to go into armed conflict. Put 'peace symbols' around the borders of our country so that everyone knows that we desire peace and will not cause war for any reason. SO - how long do you think we will be able to remain a free nation? But - we will be people of peace. I believe that we will be a nation that will be under domination of another nation or people group."
Jesus had a thing to say about this -- "If the Son shall set you free, you shall be free indeed." Truely, I tell you that if we (i.e. the U.S. or even just Christians) were to really do what Moderatelad so caustically dismisses, if we were to radically and actually trust in God to set us free, then we would experience freedom such as we have never known. Nothing that the "world" could do would touch our true freedom. "[H]ow long do you think we will be able to remain a free nation?" For as long as we continued to trust in God!
Don't you see, Moderatelad, that now we are bound -- we are chained by our fear of losing our "freedom", we are burdened by our acts of violence and oppression, we are enslaved by our participation in the Domination System.
We are commanded to be "not of this world". Indeed, laying down our arms is exactly what Jesus commanded.
Posted by: steve | November 13, 2007 6:33 PM
Posted by: steve | November 13, 2007 6:33 PM
I believe that the 'Son sets you free' verse is refering to 'salvation' and not relationships between nations.
As a believer nothing can seperate me from the love of God. I do not live in fear and know my freedom in Christ. But what about the people that do not know Christ. Are we to lay down our arms and not fight to protect ourselves or others. We are to just let them die in the sin? OK - we are free and to live is Christ to die is gain. But - what happens to those poor people that do not know Christ and we just stood by and watched their lives being snuffed out and we did nothing.
I am my brothers keeper and at times protector.
Blessings -
.
Posted by: Moderatelad | November 13, 2007 6:50 PM
Has anyone seen the painting that Greg Boyd posted on his blog? It features Jesus washing the feet of Osama bin Laden, with other world leaders such as Tony Blair looking on.
Posted by: carl copas | November 13, 2007 7:08 PM
Don, thank you for the great post. You always present a fair and well-reasoned approach to these issues. I am so sorry that you have endure the insults of some here, but consider the source before taking them even remotely seriously. When it comes to those who are attacking you, I have heard better reasoned analysis coming from a braying donkey.
Posted by: JamesMartin | November 13, 2007 7:09 PM
Hey Mick, if you dislike Sojourners and Jim Wallis so much, maybe this is not the site for you. Leave. We would much rather that you leave than pop a vein with your vitriol, man. Peace and love to ya', brother!
Posted by: JamesMartin | November 13, 2007 7:12 PM
A Little History:
Before Emperor Constantine brought Christianity into the mainstream, all the early Church Fathers taught that Christians should not serve in the army but instead willingly suffer rather than inflict harm on any other.
St. Augustine was the first Church Father to consider the concept of a Just War.
Within 100 years after Constantine, the Empire required that all soldiers in the army must be baptized Christians and thus, the decline of Christianity began.
With the justification of war and violence supplied by Augustine’s Just War Theory, wrong became right.
Nothing much has changed in two millennia, for in today’s Orwellian world politicians claim the way to peace is through war and that nuclear weapons provide protection.
In 313 AD, Emperor Constantine legitimized Christianity and thus, those who had been considered rebels and outlaws began to enjoy political power and prestige.
Jesus’ other name is The Prince of Peace, and with the marriage of church and state, his true teachings were reinterpreted. The justification of warfare and the use of state sponsored violence corrupted what Christ modeled and taught.
Jesus was always on about WAKE UP:
The Divine already indwells you and all others.
Christ taught that to follow him requires that one must love ones enemies; one must forgive those who hate, curse and revile them, without a thought of payback.
Christ lived a life that proved evil can be opposed without being mirrored, and that the cycle of a “tooth for a tooth, an eye for an eye”, will never bring peace and justice.
The term Christianity was not coined until three decades after Christ walked the earth. Until the day of Paul, followers of Christ were called members of The Way; the way being what he taught! Christ was never a Christian, but he was a social justice, radical revolutionary Palestinian devout Jewish road warrior who rose up/intifada and challenged the corrupt Temple and disturbed the status quo of the Roman occupying forces by teaching that God was on the side of the poor and the outcast.
Clement, Tertillian, Polycarp and every other early Church Father taught that violence was a contradiction of what Christ was all about. There have always been those Christians who spoke out against this corruption of scripture and they have been ignored, reviled, rejected, mocked, persecuted and maligned throughout time.
There have always been Christians who have never abandoned the true teachings, such as the Quakers, Mennonites, some Catholics and Protestants who have been faithful witnesses to Christ by denouncing violence and caring for the poor.
There have also always been Jews, Muslims, atheists, anarchists, secularists and other’s who have lived lives that embody the message of Christ.
e
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Posted by: Eileen Fleming | November 13, 2007 8:03 PM
We should remember what has caused every war; humans persistently being greedy, power mad and fixated on saving face. We cannot persist in evil and then demand that we get a choice between good and evil, we will only be able to try to find the lesser evil. The Iraq war is a fine example. After decades of sucking up to dictators (don't forget our last Secretary of War was shaking Saddam's hand after the massacre he was hanged for) to maintain our power and enrich our oligarchs our choices were to let a dictator stay in power or try to overthrow him by force, neither a "good" option. Since the current US war party has not been advocating the removal of brutal regimes without oil, I cannot believe they have good motives.
Posted by: don gisselbeck | November 13, 2007 8:10 PM
Since the current US war party has not been advocating the removal of brutal regimes without oil, I cannot believe they have good motives.
Posted by: don gisselbeck
That is a good point and one I believe should be made . Darfur comes to mind and our response to that , the other genocieds that have occurred the past few years when we sat and said whoops sorry .
Hey Mick, if you dislike Sojourners and Jim Wallis so much, maybe this is not the site for you. Leave. We would much rather that you leave than pop a vein with your vitriol, man. Peace and love to ya', brother!
Posted by: JamesMartin
Jimmy boy and miss your love and kisses , never my friend . Just keep hating America and people like me Jimmy , it promotes your cause of Peace and Justice , God's speed to ya
Posted by: Mick Sheldon | November 13, 2007 8:49 PM
JamesMartin wrote:
I am so sorry that you have endure the insults of some here, but consider the source before taking them even remotely seriously...
Hey Mick, if you dislike Sojourners and Jim Wallis so much, maybe this is not the site for you. Leave. We would much rather that you leave than pop a vein with your vitriol, man. Peace and love to ya', brother!
I couldn't agree more. I cannot understand why people like Mick, who disagree so strenuously with just about everything that is written here, even bother staying around. Maybe if Mick could find a blog that was more congenial to his thinking he wouldn't have to come up with the nasties that he writes here.
But maybe he enjoys writing nastygrams. Maybe he likes risking a stroke so he can denounce Sojourners for "hating America" (which isn't true of course, but no use arguing with Mick--he already knows all the truth and his mind is made up!) and for being in league with leftist commie eco-freaks like us.
Clue you in, Mick. I don't hate America, and I don't hate people like you who disagree with Sojourners. But I can tell that you will believe what you want to believe, regardless of the evidence. So if DiscoverTheNetworks gives you all the news you need to know about Sojourners, then you have a place to go. Have it your way.
Peace,
Posted by: Don | November 13, 2007 9:34 PM
My prayer is that the Holy Spirit breaks through and leads us into all truth and that we are teachable and humble enough to accept it without preconceptions.
Posted by: N.M. Rod | November 13, 2007 11:20 PM
This discoverthenetworks is troubling. It puts churches like the Mennonites and the Amish into the same fold as terrorists which is obviously an evil false witnessing, in order to discredit as traitors those who do good works and believe in peace for religious reasons. It is a libel to do that to people who are against all forms of violence because of their trust in Jesus. It appears to be linked with David Horowitz.
Posted by: Anonymous | November 14, 2007 12:37 AM
Thanks for the truth as you are seeing it, Shane. And the courage to share it with all. As I see above, it,(the truth), is not always greeted with enthusiasm. Reminds me of someone else that used to get some people upset when he spoke. Yet others were lifted up by his words.
I'm reading your book, Irresistable Revolution, and am hearing said much of what I have been thinking. I just didn't think anyone took Jesus's teachings that serious anymore. Thanks for the affirmation. May I have the courage to act on what I now believe.
Posted by: Jerry | November 14, 2007 1:03 AM
It is true that nationalistic political movements, whether of left or right, do have a tendency to a paranoid style. I respectfully submit that some here are engaging in that.
That is hardly an indictment of any particular country, except when that political strain begins to gain pre-eminence. It is no mistake historically to point out it begins to gain currency when a nation is undergoing great strain. It is something that can occur in any country.
I also believe that it's dangerous to Christian faith to engage in kind of syncretism that merges a cult of national greatness, of an urge for a particular country to dominate the entire world. This was the heresy of Rome and it is a tempting one to any pre-eminent military power.
Moreover, when a nation begins to see its character, its motivating reasons, in terms of military power and its heroes and history exclusively military, and its treasure turned more and more to that end, it is farther down that tempting path than it might realize.
When some begin to denounce those that warn of the danger to freedom and the republican form of government that are being courted thereby, as traitors and unpatriotic, the path should be seen as a steeply declining one and one which is dangerous to American values, what Reagan called "our better angels."
In the case of America, these trends are betrayals of the ideals and hopes of the founders. They warned against usurpation coming in the form of presidential war-making, the danger of standing armies and the prohibition of becoming involved in overseas military entanglements our urges to empire.
Now Christianity is not Americanism, nor are Americans even mostly Christian, even if a majority are religious according to some sort of definition. Therefore it is highly troubling for some Christians, who have forgotten that their first loyalty is to their Lord, if indeed they are Christians, to cast aspersions upon those who seek to follow The Way, as Christianity was first called, of Jesus himself, and revile them because they want to work hard at reconciliation and peace.
There might come a time when Christians will be called upon to hate one master and love the other.
Posted by: Anonymous | November 14, 2007 1:14 AM
i see so much disrespect in the above posts. guys, we don't have to agree on this issue...it's very, very gray. a christian can make a case for just war, and a christian can just as easily make a case that pacifism is the way to go. i don't think there's a universal answer that applies to every situation. couldn't we all just agree to disagree on this issue and focus on other areas where we might agree about how to best represent and build the Kingdom?
Posted by: j-rod | November 14, 2007 2:27 AM
To the man who wrote:
"Claiborne and those who agree with him deserve the tyranny and slavery that they would be living under were it not for the young men who sacrificed so much for this nation."
and all else who believe that it is right to kill someone so that we or anyone will remain comfortable, and unoppressed. I wanted to point out to you that Jesus and his disciples were in an occupied nation. They were Jews under Roman control. God’s plan was carried out even under Roman law, and in fact because of Roman law. (Pilate, the crucifixion, etc.) So, do we have so little faith to say that all nations need to be free in order to serve God. The cold, hard, red lettered facts tell us that we should love our enemies. I don’t feel it necessary to point out all of the times Jesus calls us to be peacemakers. I think everyone knows that Jesus calls us to be peaceful and love our enemies, but some do all they can to avoid admitting that we have to literally do this… ‘my God who would love “BAD” people?’ (Hint: the answer is in the question) You can say all you want about how loving people means fighting (and killing) for other’s rights and freedoms. But the simple fact of the matter is that to think that WE have to fight for peoples freedoms, is to have very little faith that God is just and will deal with people justly. It is not our job to judge people and kill them (I got that from this book called the Bible). And if that means pacifism and to rely totally on God for justice in the world, then I think He’s the right man/deity for the job. To say that any war is just (aside from Old Testament Jewish defensives, spearheaded by prophets and God himself) is shaky theology, and I believe shows very little faith in our God. Jesus called us love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength and to love your neighbor as yourself. I don’t have to have freedom and I don’t have to have rights to do this, so I say bring on the supposed tyranny and slavery, see if it can keep us from serving God. (also bring on the angry posts cause I know they’re coming.)
Posted by: Ryder | November 14, 2007 3:02 AM
"Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we will trust in the name of the Lord our God."
The question I pose to contributors of this discussion is: to which group do you align yourselves -- the "some" or the "we".
Posted by: steve | November 14, 2007 8:08 AM
What I find missing from your perspective is that you believe all wars are fought with hate ?
Love is hate.
War is peace.
I get it now.
Posted by: Anonymous | November 14, 2007 8:10 AM
N.M. Rod-thank you for your prayer, that the Spirit lift us out of this un-Christian name-calling and focus on the real issue here.
Christians are challenged by Christ to live apart, to stand apart from the "norms" of a sinful world, to love their enemies, and to live lives of peace.
Condemning each other for "un-American" behavior isn't mentioned anywhere in His teachings. If anything, He dismisses "nations" as a creation of mankind, and not part of His world. He knew the dangers of worship of nation and it's trappings, as opposed to worship of God and His Love.
If we are to live His Way, we are expected to stand up to the enemies among us and offer them love, and our lives, no matter how difficult, and frightening, that might be.
May the Holy Spirit guide us!
Pray for Peace!
Posted by: Doug & Jan in CO | November 14, 2007 10:16 AM
As Christians we are called to a life of following the way of Christ. We are not called to discuss or to debate what Christ meant or did while he was on this earth. If this is all we do, then we become bogged down in debate and attacking one another. This is very common in our country today, regardless if you are a Republican or Democrat, conservative or liberal. We are called to be one, just as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one. So let's stop the fighting and debating and focus instead on living the message of Christ. Focus on Christ. Examine ourselves and change ourselves first instead of attacking and blaming the other. We all need to chnage in one way or the other.
What was the message and life of Christ all about? It was about showing us the way to the kingdom. Nothing else mattered to Christ. We are called to have this same focus in what we do. Unfortunately, we all are often distracted. Our motives for doing most of what we do are mixed, including going to war to liberate a people. I believe those who serve our country in the military are good people who believe in what they are doing. I do not question their loyalty. What I do question are the motives of those who send them into harm's way to begin with. Are these motives in line with Christ's teachings, life, and death? In all we do, as individuals and as a nation, we must ask this question. This must be our guide, otherwise we are not serving Christ. We must not fool ourselves. America is a great country. I am an American. I am a Christian first. If my citizenship as an American interferes with my citizenship as a member of God's kingdom, then something is wrong and my salvation is in jeopardy.
What is the way to the kingdom of God? What is the path to salvation? At the last judgement, Christ will judge us not on our standard of living and not on whether we are American or Mexican or Muslim or Republican or Democrat. Christ will judge us on how we treated the least of those amomg us, the poor and the marginalized. I know some will justify using violence as a means to a greater good. The Just War Theory was, at one time, a valid argument for the use of force. However, we have so developed the weapons that we use in war, that Just War is no longer a valid response. The destruction is too great. It is no longer in proportion to the threat. I believe that if most Christians in this country witnessed the effects of war firsthand, we would no longer practice war. The affects upon the poor and those most vulnerale, those upon whom our own salvation is linked, are devastating. If it is unacceptable to have war on U.S. soil, what makes it justifiable to have war anywhere else? All life is sacred since all are created in the image and likeness of God.
Let's live the message of Christ and move beyond just talking about it. Pray that we all may be transformed into the love and mercy of God.
Peace and all good.
Posted by: Sean | November 14, 2007 11:02 AM
This is all very interesting. Does anyone understand what peace is? On earth, we strain to obtain peace, yet most have no idea what peace is. However, one day we will have peace on earth, but what happens then?
But of the times and the seasons, people, you have no need for me to write to you. For you all know, if you are indeed Christians, perfectly well that the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. but when all men say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction will come upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and none will escape. Therefore, let us consider one another to provoke into love and to do good works; Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Drawkcab
Posted by: Thomas Underwood | November 14, 2007 11:40 AM
"This discoverthenetworks is troubling. It puts churches like the Mennonites and the Amish into the same fold as terrorists which is obviously an evil false witnessing, in order to discredit as traitors those who do good works and believe in peace for religious reasons"
Yes indeed , it is troublesome when your beliefs are linked to those who would discredit your motives and beliefs , twist them into something evil .
And N.M. Rod , Thank you , that was uplifting and real .
Posted by: Mick Sheldon | November 14, 2007 2:05 PM
This discoverthenetworks is troubling. It puts churches like the Mennonites and the Amish into the same fold as terrorists which is obviously an evil false witnessing, in order to discredit as traitors those who do good works and believe in peace for religious reasons. It is a libel to do that to people who are against all forms of violence because of their trust in Jesus. It appears to be linked with David Horowitz.
This was my reaction exactly. DiscoverTheNetworks, like so many of these "smear portals," categorizes virtually everyone who doesn't agree with them as radical leftists who are at best disloyal to the US and at worst must be in league in some way with the terrorists. It's sort of like saying that all Protestants are the same because they all object to the claim of papal authority.
But Mennonites, Quakers, and other "peace churches" have been accused of disloyalty before because of their principled stand for non-violence, so it isn't like this is something new. A Mennonite high school here in the Amish area of Ohio saw increased enrollment by non-Mennonites who wanted to try and give their children a better education. That is, the enrollment increased until 9-11. After that, it began to decrease. Among the objections: the school doesn't fly the US flag, and the school doesn't play or sing the National Anthem before sports events with other schools. So they must be disloyal. Of course, the school never flew the flag or sang the National Anthem, but those facts were lost on the parents who objected. Until 9-11, they just didn't notice.
The really sad thing, though, is that sites like DiscoverTheNetworks wouldn't exist if they didn't have an audience of people who have abandoned critical thinking and have allowed these sites to do all their "reasoning" and "analysis" for them.
Peace,
Posted by: Don | November 14, 2007 2:13 PM
"DiscoverTheNetworks wouldn't exist if they didn't have an audience of people who have abandoned critical thinking and have allowed these sites to do all their "reasoning" and "analysis" for them"
Don as I said , I found it googling something a Soujouner supporter stated that sounded off the wall to me . I have not yet seen the write up of Quakers or Mennoites you are talking aboout it ?
Interesting you chose that group and not the other topics less easy to defend . Where is it by the way ? I personally respect those willing to put their Faith before personal safety and being ridiculed for it . I believe you do also . Its when those Faiths interwine with your Faith , and both faiths are projected as insincere that the problems arise . Amen ?
Also I was on this site for a long period of time with all the rancor about the medical care program for "children" , I found out elsewhere that Bush was actually promoting a 5 billion dollar increase in funding , and the democrats were asking for a ciggerette tax to pay for the funding . so you are saying this site is for critical thinkers ? I don't think so myself , that should be part of the debate , promoting the increase of medical care for children can be wrongly strategized . That is what I found wrong here , the motive mattered more then the procedre and how you would do it . You could be for increasing health care , but not the way the democrats were doing it and still be put into the same camp that you feel this discover the networks does .
This is how Wallis is viewed from Discoverthe network , The Foundations that support this group is what I find interesting . You can research them if you feel so compelled and come to your own critical conclussion .
im Wallis called the U.S. "… the great power, the great seducer, the great captor and destroyer of human life, the great master of humanity and history in its totalitarian claims and designs."Sojourners is supported by the Cawley Family Foundation, Crystal Trust, the Delaware Community Foundation, the Max and Victoria Dreyfus Foundation, the Gannett Foundation, the Gill Foundation, the Laffey-McHugh Foundation, the Longwood Foundation, the MBNA Foundation, the Open Society Institute, the Peninsula Community Foundation, and the Philadelphia Foundation
Posted by: Mick Sheldon | November 14, 2007 2:36 PM
Discoverthenetworks is all about plumbing the "vast left-wing conspiracy" ... you plug in whatever group you want and their "dossier" on it pops up.
I checked some of these write-ups against what I personally know and in those cases they are twisted.
How can I trust what they have to say about those things I don't know when they are incredibly biased and deceitful in the ones I do know?
I honestly think that their own agenda is what, for them, separates the sheep from the goats.
They are very much of a paranoid style. Can you imagine some character like McCarthy or J. Edgar running amok with this can of thing should that tenor of politcal interaction come to be agains, should a crisis strike?
It would be "better safe than sorry" and "round 'em all up."
Basically, you get the feeling that every group or individual they list, who has even questioned their ideology or agenda, is "an enemy of the people."
I would imagine the part on Wallis is as cherry-picked and full of partial quotes to discredit his standing as much as possible.
Remember that to these folks, right-wing dictatorships were never a problem, because they were not "leftist," while anyone resisting them was conveniently labeled, "leftist" per se and thus disposable both to the validity of their voice and their very physical being.
Posted by: Anonymous | November 14, 2007 3:16 PM
What is the spiritual perspective and background of the site? Is it claiming to be Christian? It would be awful if a purely ideologically secular site were to sow discord between believers.
Posted by: N.M. Rod | November 14, 2007 3:24 PM
Is it claiming to be Christian? It would be awful if a purely ideologically secular site were to sow discord between believers.
Posted by: N.M. Rod
No its not Christian at all . Its a join the dots type of deal , say you have a Geroge Soros and see what other organizations his money is funneled to . Also some editorials and re buttals to left leaning positions . It is secualr and a hit site against left leaning organizations , I would say the ones I have seen so far are fringe ones . But if you believe Moveon.Org and MediaMatters as trustworthy sites , I can see why you would find tit an offensive site . Also they find this site a fringe site , as does this one find James Dobson . So your sowing discord comments among believers fails my mutual understanding of what you mean . This site sows as much discord , in fact it is not represntative of Christianity today , and often points to our failures , which the church needs to address , but it surely never promotes our unity either , which we need to solve some of those failures .
You see things similiar from a leftist view on this secualar site like on Media Matters and other leftists organizations , Move on Org , etc
N M Rod you don't think this organization sows discord among believers ? I have heard it stated a man of a different race who shared my views was a disgrace , a proped up human being . But people are attacked here because they want lower taxes ?
Or have a view that it is important to raise them to help the poor . Both views deserve listening to , but please don't say one view is treated with equal respect from this organization , you know that is not true .
Posted by: Mick Sheldon | November 14, 2007 3:55 PM
Remember that to these folks, right-wing dictatorships were never a problem, because they were not "leftist," while anyone resisting them was conveniently labeled, "leftist" per se and thus disposable both to the validity of their voice and their very physical being.
Posted by: anom
Or your view reversed and how some of the organizations listed do the same as you find os offensive .
Remember that to these folks, left-wing dictatorships were never a problem, because they were not "conservative ," while anyone resisting them was conveniently labeled, "conservative " per se and thus disposable both to the validity of their voice and their very physical being.
Posted by: Anyone who undertands what is done here in the name of God .
Posted by: Anonymous | November 14, 2007 4:22 PM
"I checked some of these write-ups against what I personally know and in those cases they are twisted."
Why not share what that is ? Critical thinking would suggest we don't just listen to an anom ?
I for one would be interetsed . I have heard of David Horowitz . I believe he was an active communist who now has gone completly to the other side of the political spectrum . He is quite abrupt , and was so when he was a communist also . So it is interesting how people now see his tactics as appalling , but did not notice his tactics when he supported their views .
Which I guess is something we are guilty of .
Uhhh , except here of course . So examples please anom ? Or should we just take your word for it because your an anom and we are all critical thinkers and able to decide for ourselves ?
Posted by: Mick Sheldon | November 14, 2007 4:28 PM
Thanks , I did check this out . It is quite interesting how some of the Foundations that give money out promote organizations that are even anti religious in some of their beliefs , and yet give money to religious organizations that promote a political idealogy similiar to the anti religious ones .
Posted by: David | November 14, 2007 4:34 PM
Sometimes Foundations give money out for reasons that have nothing to do with what we may understand . For instance a Foundation may give to the Boy Scouts , yet give to another organization that would side with the view that the Boy Scouts promoted discrimination . The organization was still doing something that the Foundation saw as worthy of support .
Its why the anom above I believe makes a valid point , he just has a problem seeing the reverse and how it appears when it is the other way around in my opinion . Go to Soujorners Belief Net and their is a letter to the editor condemning a Conservative who is putting down Barack and showing a shallow view of not voting for him because of his Muslim sounding name .
Now its a political stereotype of a bigoted Conservative being supported , and its exactly what Discovery Organization does . Of all the letters to list , why not one showing unity and a positive message ? Of course not , that would promote a positive view of left and right in unity . Sharing the belief bigotry is wrong .
Posted by: Mick | November 14, 2007 4:47 PM
Any authoritarian or totalitarian government is repressive. Torture hurts whether from the left, right or center.
Left-wing propaganda, right-wing propaganda.
Lowering taxes is great. There's fraud and waste and cozy deals galore for insiders the bigger government becomes. And government shouldn't interfere where personal initiative is working well.
Unfortunately waging foreign wars is even more wasteful than things like health care. So some conservatives are really huge spenders, worse than drunken sailors when it comes to military buildups and cost-plus overrun contracts to defense industry cronies. They are not for small government at all - just other priorities for their pork.
It's hard to argue that something more positive than war, which drives the need for more healthcare with all the abandoned wounded, is wasteful when you're pumping many more times that into wars that are said will have no end. To a small c conservative or libertarian, that sounds like betrayal. If it's to be spent no matter what, why not on things that might build, however inefficiently, rather than down the dark hole of death and destruction?
Manufacturing is dying and jobs are being offshored so that private enterprise can't afford to pay for benefits anymore.
If the right were interested in shoring up private enterprise that provides decent paying work here in America that would be great. For sure the CEOs have lost interest.
If the left wants to trash free enterprise that's dumb.
But crony and monopoly capitalism aren't free enterprise unless there's regulation - because of the power and financial clout of the greedy who just don't care if pension and retiree pension plans collapse, or if fewer and fewer are covered under private health care plans.
If some right wing site is being deceiving, that has no bearing on a left wing site that's deceptive. The existence of one doesn't justify the other.
So much I hear repeated here, that one side is justified in whatever lack of ethics are displayed in pursuit of propaganda, because "the other side does it too!"
Two lies don't add up to a truth.
What does that have to do with the pursuit of truth, or holding ourselves to Jesus' standards?
What do leftist or rightist purely political sites have to do with what we as Christians say here? You'll find in Jesus' words and the early church things that either could claim as their own, but they don't have His authority or complete understanding.
Posted by: N.M. Rod | November 14, 2007 5:16 PM
If some right wing site is being deceiving, that has no bearing on a left wing site that's deceptive. The existence of one doesn't justify the other
N.M. Rod
Well yes , but the point again is I found this site googling a claim from a person here that was promoting something that was false . It does provide information that would you wonder about this site . To say the democratic party is always wrong because they promote Republicans as fools , does not mean their concerns for the envirnonment and such are false , nor does it mean at times they are not right in what they point out about republicans .
Again , when I met the Lord I like others met Him where I was . He allows us to Grow. So I got rid of all my past ways , drugs , associations that were based on such , etc . To some this is a good thing , I never imagined that because I got saved in a Conservative Church my motives would just be so made out to be evil as the people here do . I must wonderif this not the same for liberals ,
I have seen the same people here who promote Soujorners never question some of hurtfull comments directed at others because of "political beliefs" that even questioned their love of God , their commitment to HIm and the very basic Need we all share I believe to be uplifted and emcourgaged by each other . Sorry my friend , I don't see that here ,
I see people attacking others not because of what they are saying , but WHO they are saying it to .
The characteristics That Christ want us to share are not promoted here on a personal relationship spectrum , its political .
Posted by: mick Sheldon | November 14, 2007 7:32 PM
Mick = Sick
Posted by: Anonymous | November 14, 2007 9:33 PM
"BTW, America did not come to the aid of those 6 million who perished in Europe, though FDR was well aware of what was going on"
FDR was a horrendous president.
I have to wonder whether a different president would have done anything differently re. the Hitler regime's treatment of Jews. Some of the Nazis' ideas (forcing Jews to wear identification, for example) were widely supported here in the USA. (I didn't think the gas chambers appeared until the early 1940s).
And on the surface, Hitler's treatment of Jews wasn't a lot different than our own treatment of indigenous peoples.
Peace,
Posted by: Don | November 15, 2007 6:19 AM
For some reason, the line "FDR was a horrendous president" didn't come out in italics above. It isn't my statement; I am responding to it.
Later,
Posted by: Don | November 15, 2007 6:21 AM
Any authoritarian or totalitarian government is repressive. Torture hurts whether from the left, right or center.
Left-wing propaganda, right-wing propaganda.
Lowering taxes is great. There's fraud and waste and cozy deals galore for insiders the bigger government becomes. And government shouldn't interfere where personal initiative is working well.
Unfortunately waging foreign wars is even more wasteful than things like health care. So some conservatives are really huge spenders, worse than drunken sailors when it comes to military buildups and cost-plus overrun contracts to defense industry cronies. They are not for small government at all - just other priorities for their pork.
It's hard to argue that something more positive than war, which drives the need for more healthcare with all the abandoned wounded, is wasteful when you're pumping many more times that into wars that are said will have no end. To a small c conservative or libertarian, that sounds like betrayal. If it's to be spent no matter what, why not on things that might build, however inefficiently, rather than down the dark hole of death and destruction?
Manufacturing is dying and jobs are being offshored so that private enterprise can't afford to pay for benefits anymore.
If the right were interested in shoring up private enterprise that provides decent paying work here in America that would be great. For sure the CEOs have lost interest.
If the left wants to trash free enterprise that's dumb.
But crony and monopoly capitalism aren't free enterprise unless there's regulation - because of the power and financial clout of the greedy who just don't care if pension and retiree pension plans collapse, or if fewer and fewer are covered under private health care plans.
If some right wing site is being deceiving, that has no bearing on a left wing site that's deceptive. The existence of one doesn't justify the other.
So much I hear repeated here, that one side is justified in whatever lack of ethics are displayed in pursuit of propaganda, because "the other side does it too!"
Two lies don't add up to a truth.
What does that have to do with the pursuit of truth, or holding ourselves to Jesus' standards?
What do leftist or rightist purely political sites have to do with what we as Christians say here? You'll find in Jesus' words and the early church things that either could claim as their own, but they don't have His authority or complete understanding.
Posted by: N.M. Rod | November 15, 2007 11:16 PM
Mick = Sick
Posted by:
"Obviously got that out of your Red Letter edition ."
And on the surface, Hitler's treatment of Jews wasn't a lot different than our own treatment of indigenous peoples.
Peace,
Posted by: Don
At the time in this country we still kept African Americans and whites separate . but considering the world FDR was in , the fact we were still in a depression , people and children were not worried about going to the doctor , they were worried if they were going to eat that day .. I thought FRR was a better then average President . He was quite the liberal , but no one is perfect .
Posted by: Mick Sheldon | November 16, 2007 1:40 AM
I have serious problems with traditions that claim to be "Christian".
I was born and raised Roman Catholic in a middle class family. My father enlisted with the Navy and the Marines during the Korean "conflict". I spent 3 years of high school in the seminary believing very much in the teachings of Jesus.
When I was 36 on the lottery, I realized that I needed to look into becoming a conscientious objector or religious grounds. I was not so much afraid to die as I was to lose my soul. I don't recall hearing that Jesus came back and changed his instructions concerning love of enemies. If Jesus was God and destined to die to atone for sins why did he have to be killed by his enemies?
For those who don't understand why the article that created this comments area refer to Martin of Tours being referred to on 11/11, November 11 has been the feast of Martin of Tours for nearly 1500 years before the United States was established.
According to what we believe to be the account of Martin's experience, after he put down his weapons, he was called a coward, an easy thing for someone who was armed could say. He then went to speak to the leader of the enemy army and returned with a peace deal. Possibly Martin had a less violent approach to peace negotiations than the Roman army.
I have come to the recognition that I don't know if Jesus was God or if Constantine in his attempt to recruit followers of Jesus to fight his wars made Roman Catholicism accept the idea that Jesus was God so that Romans didn't have to follow the teachings of Jesus. Jesus never said following his teachings would be easy. Because Jesus followed his own teachings, he was executed for political reasons and his death was made later to look like a pagan form of sacrifice to a Roman like God.
I haven't met a person in my 57 years who knows for certain that Jesus was God. Christianity is based on an ancient belief that has no real proof.
I still believe that Jesus was teaching nonviolence base on faith and not because God wanted to prove that he could suffer and appear to die as a sacrifice.
Peace!
Posted by: Rey Hinckley | November 16, 2007 9:54 AM
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