Mukasey and Waterboarding: Don't Knock It 'Till You Try It? (by Ryan Rodrick Beiler)
Overheard at the lunch table:
If Mukasey can't tell whether waterboarding is torture or not, maybe he should have someone do it to him, and then see what he thinks.
I'll have to respectfully disagree. Torture that doesn't leave any physical marks but can still cause permanent psychological damage is still torture. Therefore I oppose waterboarding for anyone - including presidential appointees and Fox News correspondents who after a few dunks think it's no big deal. They deserve the human dignity that comes with being created in the image of God. Them and everyone else.
Ryan Rodrick Beiler is the web editor for Sojourners.
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Comments
Hi,
My Senator Chuck Schumer is leaning toward approving Mukasey. So I wrote to him (snail mail, nice card) and asked "If Mukasey is approved, may I waterboard you?". Only fair.
Sojourners: Thanks for your clarity and courage.
Sonia
Posted by: Sonia Collins | November 5, 2007 4:19 PM
How about if we appoint only people to those positions who are insistent that such treatments be fully tried out on them first. That would get around the "consent" issue. It is not as if someone like that is not already seriously damaged psychologically.
Posted by: Asinus Gravis | November 5, 2007 4:23 PM
If you could possibly save even thousands in your own country by a pre-emptive strike by wiping out millions of civilians in another, would you do it?
The answer is yes. Democracy and dictatorship alike have engaged in that behavior under duress. That's what war is all about. And periodically, humanity engages in total war. Next time will add new dimensions we've never seen before as we continue to revert to medieval barbaric standards of cruelty using modern technology.
Once you go down the road to being able to wage total war without moral constraint, then anything is justifiable, as long as you emerge victorious having achieved your own aims. Human life is fully expendable for any and all reasons on any scale.
Our character, morals and finances are all being degraded by the course we have chosen.
The updated but still medieval Christian pastiche on the Hatfields vs. McCoys feud humanity endlessly engages in only serves to justify and lengthen the time before we wake up - if we ever can before it's too late.
Posted by: N.M. Rod | November 5, 2007 4:56 PM
It's not surprising that a society that finds excuses for abortion finds excuses for torture too.
Both liberal and conservative really have no call to point the finger at each other, away from themselves. The panoply of problems we have aren't due to a gloss of liberal or conservative lipstick on the ugliness of our sin - it goes much deeper and all are both guilty and responsible to effect change.
Posted by: N.M. Rod | November 5, 2007 5:02 PM
Uh, James, you are kidding with this "what if a nuclear device..." scenario. Has never happened, no matter what the Bush administration is now trying to peddle. There have not been "thousands of lives" saved through waterboarding, and I am even doubtful if one life has been saved. Torture simply does not work, but gives the torturers a small sense of "doing something." And the maybe one in one hundred times useful information is yielded up? Well, a broken clock is correct twice a day. american WWII interregators gained far more info playing chess with German officers than by torture. Dump waterboarding and teach interrogators backgammon.
Posted by: Eric E. | November 5, 2007 5:11 PM
The only thing that torture has been shown to reveal is exactly what the one administering it wants to hear. Hey, if you are tortured and tell the truth will the torture stop? Only if it's what the torturer believes to be the truth... or in fact just wants to hear you say. Even if it did work, would it be worth your soul to achieve that end?
WWJT! (Who Would Jesus Torture?)
Posted by: dlowen | November 5, 2007 5:19 PM
You "libs" don't get it. Kiefer Sutherland has proved, over and over, as Jack Bauer, on his hit show "24," that torture works. Thirteen million Los Angelenos have him to thank for their very lives. (Well maybe livlihoods.)
Would he get $10 million a year if it weren't true and would the show have garnered the accolades it has from top officials?
I have heard that many Christian viewers are now asking, about those quaint (and somehow European, and therefore "French") Geneva Conventions (that's in France isn't it?) "WWJD"? (What would Jack do?)
[But here's a conspiracy theory for you. The whole thing may be a plot to discredit our world standing, with roots in foreign socialist conspiracy. Kiefer's father is immigrant Donald Sutherland, who married the daughter of the Canadian socialist leader who introduced - gasp! - SOCIALIZED MEDICINE - to Canada, in a fit of jealousy against American successes that they could not duplicate. And Kiefer himself holds DUAL citizenship and therefore has dual loyalties. Say it ain't so, Jack!]
Posted by: N.M. Rod | November 5, 2007 8:43 PM
And further, N.M. Rod, that Canadian socialist leader was a - yep, get ready for it - Baptist pastor, one Tommy C. Douglas, recently named the most important Canadian to have lived, beating out the likes of Wayne Gretzky, Michael Ignatieff and yours truly!
Posted by: canucklehead | November 5, 2007 9:10 PM
Hey! What about Dief?
Posted by: N.M. Rod | November 5, 2007 9:41 PM
Geneva is in Switzerland.
Jack Bauer (Kiefer Sutherland) shows that torture works--in FICTION! How else can they build the dramatic effect and ensure that people will tune in for weeks and weeks?
In real life, as dlowen as written, The only thing that torture has been shown to reveal is exactly what the one administering it wants to hear. Hey, if you are tortured and tell the truth will the torture stop? Only if it's what the torturer believes to be the truth... or in fact just wants to hear you say. Both the tortured and torturers have acknowledged people will say whatever the torturer wants to hear--to make the torture stop.
Posted by: bren | November 5, 2007 9:51 PM
Um, Bren, looks like you didn't notice that NM was being ironic. But of course you're right in what you say.
Posted by: mark | November 6, 2007 12:36 AM
Hey! What about Dief?
Posted by: N.M. Rod | November 5, 2007 9:41 PM
The "Diefer" placed right behind Keifer!
Posted by: canucklehead | November 6, 2007 1:15 AM
It all goes back to the Golden Rule doesn't it; or maybe "Love one another as I have loved you." Based on the above,Catholic social teaching tells us that one can never do evil so that good may result from it. It's strange and even a pain in the neck how often living the Gospel gets in the way of our efforts to justify our means. what do we do with that pesky Gospel.
Posted by: Dick Busic | November 6, 2007 10:53 AM
Mark, you're correct--I didn't spot irony in NM Rod's statement. But then, I assume his signature is a form of 'nimrod' which has so many meanings: a haughty king who declared himself a "mighty one on the earth," hunter, foolish person. Which one is writing at which time?
The main problem, if it's a problem, is that I find it very difficult (nay, impossible) to be light-hearted on the subject of torture.
Posted by: bren | November 6, 2007 4:11 PM
Irony can leave a bitter, metallic taste.
Our torture is ironic, in that sense, on so many levels.
The torturer himself is ironic as he eviscerates his own humanity while practicing on that of his victim.
The judges who rule on its legality are engaging in constitutional irony.
The politicians who say they do not engage in it, speaking from one corner of their mouth, are being politically ironic.
That a nation with the Statue of Liberty in the harbor of its most famous city, tortures, renders the statue an irony. Read the poem engraved at its base to shed bitter ironic tears.
Hubris itself is the perfect container for irony.
The tortured, in that they share in the guilt of participating or sympathizing with terrorism, are also ironic victims.
One might even say that since there are so many other varied instances of the sardonic incongruity between our means and stated ends, that our very irony has become tortured.
Posted by: N.M Rod | November 6, 2007 6:17 PM
Just to be clear, you all do understand that the subjects of the alleged "waterboarding" are people who are associated with things like sawing off the heads of innocent civilians while videotaping their dying screams and posting it on the internet for the enjoyment of the bereaved family members. And the reason for the waterboarding is to extract information that might stop further beheadings, bombings and mutilation of more innocent civilians. Try to keep in mind who the bad guys are. (Hint: It's not us!)
Furthermore, members of our own special forces volunteer to undergo waterboarding as a training demonstration. Are you suggesting that it is okay for our own guys, but unacceptable for savage murderers? Hmmm sounds like you're calling good evil and evil good.
Posted by: Bradley | November 6, 2007 9:56 PM
Look, your opposition to waterboarding is perfectly understandable, but this debate needs to be kept in context.
If you don't like being waterboarded, don't get involved in terrorist plots against the US or its allies. Nothing in life is foolproof, but if you can avoid this your chances of being waterboarded drop dramatically.
If you have been involved in a terror plot against the US or its allies, you can still avoid being waterboarded by telling the nice intelligence agent everything you know about said plot. Doing so will not only prevent waterboarding, it will mean you will not have to stand before God/Allah/YHWH/Wotan/Ahura-Mazda/(insert other deity of your choice here) guilty of the deaths of dozens of his innocent children.
All in all it seems like a reasonable deal to me.
Wolverine
Posted by: Wolverine | November 6, 2007 11:42 PM
I was all prepared to ask N M Rod whether he was still being ironic when he said: The tortured, in that they share in the guilt of participating or sympathizing with terrorism, are also ironic victims....
only to discover that Bradley and Wolverine, for two, absolutely assume that anyone who's been arrested, renditioned, sent off to Gitmo is or has been involved in a terrorist plot.
How do you know that for sure? Certainly Maher Arar was guilty of nothing except being from a Middle Eastern country! Even Congress--and Condaleeze Rice--acknowledge a mistake was made. If we know about one clear mistake, why not consider the possibility that other mistakes were made? Presumably mistakes were made with the various Gitmo prisoners who were released and returned to their countries.
That isn't to say that there are no terrorists in that bunch, but so far, in the absence of evidence--or even trials--who knows? Do you have evidence, Wolverine and Bradley, that the rest of us don't have?
Posted by: bren | November 6, 2007 11:52 PM
Prima facie evidence of guilt under the one percent doctrine of "Me Good, You Bad" enunciated by the one-time Wyoming electrical lineman:
1/100=100/100
99/100=0/100
And we thought the legislature that voted to round Pi off to 3 by fiat didn't understand math or reality...
Posted by: Anonymous | November 7, 2007 12:53 AM
Bradley says:
Try to keep in mind who the bad guys are. (Hint: It's not us!)
Luke 18:11
Mark
Posted by: mark | November 7, 2007 2:23 AM
Bren:
How do you know that for sure? Certainly Maher Arar was guilty of nothing except being from a Middle Eastern country!
The same seems to be true of the British Gitmo victims.
I wonder how many US detainees have any connection at all with terrorism.
Mark
Posted by: mark | November 7, 2007 2:37 AM
Bren wrote:
I was all prepared to ask N M Rod whether he was still being ironic when he said: The tortured, in that they share in the guilt of participating or sympathizing with terrorism, are also ironic victims....
only to discover that Bradley and Wolverine, for two, absolutely assume that anyone who's been arrested, renditioned, sent off to Gitmo is or has been involved in a terrorist plot.
Actually no, I don't assume that. But not every person who has ever been arrested and sent off to Guantanamo has been waterboarded. And so far I have yet to hear a credible accusation that the US has knowingly waterboarded anyone who did not have ties to terrorists. Hence, staying clear of terrorists does greatly reduce one's risks of being waterboarded.
Of all the tactics you mentioned, rendition is the one that bothers me the most, but that's a different issue from waterboarding, which in turn is a seperate issue from Guantanamo. To hear your rhetoric, it sounds like you've mooshed the three together and your real objection is that the US has no business delivering anything more than a stern lecture to suspected terrorists.
Wolverine
Posted by: Wolverine | November 7, 2007 9:46 AM
We must assume that torture and rendition are more prevalent than we know because they are by nature the sort of activities desired to be kept secret. In fact, those who have reported on them have been accused of being traitors for making the information known, and by some of those who have denied or minimized the occurrences. There is a considerable effort to have create legal interpretations that would protect possible past, present and future torture, a clear indication that more is known than the public knows. Moreover, as information emerges, it reveals more, not fewer abuses than previously known.
It's not possible, unless they were there, that some of the quick to justify anything bloggers could give any credible assurances on this at all.
Posted by: Anonymous | November 7, 2007 12:21 PM
Eric said
There have not been "thousands of lives" saved through waterboarding, and I am even doubtful if one life has been saved. Torture simply does not work,
Eric I don't think it matters if torture works or not . Not in the long run does it ? But I find the question if you could stop a nuclear blast by torturing an individual a very valid question in this debate . Torture is wrong , but answering that question as though you have Jesus Christ on your side , either way, I find far fetched .
Posted by: Mick Sheldon | November 7, 2007 3:13 PM
Mick you lost me. Jesus was very clear on how to treat prisoners. Bring them water, visit them... In short show compassion and mercy. Ofcourse torture working matters or there is no need for it. Torture is used to gain intelligence. If the intelligence is faulty (as it has been shown to be) then it should not be used. So in light of what the gospels say about visiting prisoners... how can you say you find "Jesus Christ on your side" far fetched?
p
Posted by: payshun | November 7, 2007 6:34 PM
What they do: Gouge out eyes, drill through ankles and knees, clothing iron or blow torch to the skin, disolve flesh with acid, melt through teeth with soldering irons, burn alive, saw off heads, etc...(oh yeah, and they video tape it so they can post it on the internet.)
What we do: Turn thermostat up or down, leave lights on and play Britney Spears music loudly to discourage sleep, allegedly create a sensation that simulates the feeling of drowning.
Why they do it: For pleasure and to instill terror and fear.
Why we do it: As a last resort to obtain information that may save lives.
If you can't differentiate between the two, then you obviously have no discernment and it is fortunate that the protection of our children is not left up to you.
Posted by: Bradley | November 7, 2007 7:23 PM
Umm that's not all we do Brad. you would know that if you did a little bit more digging. Waterboarding is still torture. Hell we convicted a Japanese man for using it on our troops. But now all of a sudden it's ok for us to use? Yah right. What I am really sad and disappointed about is that you and yours are controlled by a imaginery army and navy that doesn't exist.
I am not saying our enemies don't exist just not in the way you seem to suggest they do. They are cells and instead of fighting it that way we fight wars. Talk about naive and clueless. I am sad that our soldiers are going to die needless deaths for American greed and Iraqi freedom. I am sad that we can't seem to get the Iraqi government to do what's right and create reconciliation. I am sad that so many companies are making a profit during war time. That's what this war is about and let me say this again. Waterboarding is torture.
p
Posted by: payshun | November 7, 2007 8:10 PM
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