How Should Christians Relate to the State of Israel? (by Rich Nathan)
In November our friend Pastor Rich Nathan sent us this compelling sermon and we've been looking for a good time to post it ever since. The occasion of Bush's trip to the Middle East seems to be a good time for Christians to reflect on their relationship with the modern nation of Israel. You can click to read the full text, or download mp3 audio from Rich's church, Vineyard Columbus.
Now, the issue of Israel is not just academic to me. Most of you know that I was raised in a Jewish family. And in terms of my personal identity, I consider myself to be a Jew who believes that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, the one promised by the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. There are three branches of modern-day Judaism. The strictest, that is the most adherent to Jewish tradition, is called Orthodox Judaism. The most liberal is called Reformed Judaism. And the middle is called Conservative Judaism. I was raised in the branch of Judaism known as Conservative Judaism.So, growing up I went to a synagogue in which the prayers were all said in Hebrew. I wore the skull cap known as the yarmulke and a prayer shawl known as a tallis each week as I attended synagogue – and I attended weekly. I went to Hebrew School and Hebrew High School. I was bar mitzvah which is a rite of passage for Jewish boys at age 13. In growing up I had a deep attachment to Israel. I gave money as a child to plant trees in Israel. At Jewish holidays we always greeted each other with the Hebrew greeting, L'shana habaa biyerushalayim which means "Next year in Jerusalem."
In other words, next year may we celebrate this holiday in Jerusalem. As a child I celebrated the victory of the 6-Day War. "We won!" I remember saying that in my 6th grade class, "We won!" My Roman Catholic teacher responded and said, "The State Department doesn't recognize the victory in Israel as an American victory." I thought to myself in the 6th grade, "Well, maybe it is not an American victory, but it is my victory!" I even considered leaving college my freshman year and joining the Israeli Army when the Yom Kippur Day War broke out in 1973. I would have been able to do this as a Jew. I could have immediately enlisted in the Israeli Army.
Now, Israel is at the very center of almost all of the great divisions in the world today, especially the division between America and the Arab world. Many Christians believe that America must support Israel because the land was promised to the Jews by God 4000 years ago. And many Christians see the formation of Israel as the major sign that the return of Jesus Christ is near. Other Christians are not so sure. As we continue this series on the end times, I've called today's talk, "How Should Christians Relate to the state of Israel?" Let's pray.
Full Sermon Text:
How Should Christians Relate to the State of Israel?
Rich Nathan
November 17-18, 2007
Back in 1894 a cleaning woman named Maria Bastian was cleaning the German Embassy in Paris, France. She was a spy on the payroll of French counter-intelligence. And in one of the waste paper baskets in the German Embassy she discovered a hand-written list offering French military secrets to the Germans. Suspicion immediately focused on a French artillery office named Alfred Dreyfus.
SLIDE – Alfred Dreyfus
Dreyfus was a Jewish Captain in the French Army. Despite testimony by hand-writing experts, who said that Dreyfus did not write the list, the Army rushed to prosecute Dreyfus. By the time the trial came, the Army became aware of the fact that there was a significant amount of evidence exonerating Dreyfus from guilt. But by then, it was politically impossible to withdraw the charges without creating a major scandal for the Army.
And brewing below the surface in France was the ever-present anti-Semitism which now boiled to the surface. Many French newspapers demanded that Dreyfus be
punished and they carried horrible cartoons caricatures of Jews with the suggestion that Jews were always lurking in the shadows conspiring to sell France out to the Germans.
The Roman Catholic church in France joined in the condemnation of Dreyfus. In a public ceremony in Paris Dreyfus was stripped of his military ribbons; his sword was broken in two; and, he was exiled to the notorious French prison on Devil's Island.
But that wasn't the end of the case. Railroading Alfred Dreyfus didn't end the matter because exculpatory evidence exonerating Dreyfus from guilt began to not only pile up, but leak to more fair-minded French officials. One military officer found irrefutable evidence of Dreyfus' innocence. Higher-ups in the military refused to listen saying, "What do you care if another Jew remains on Devil's Island?"
Finally, the evidence made its way to a brilliant French novelist named Emile Zola.
SLIDE – Emile Zola
In an open letter to the French president, the novelist detailed Dreyfus' unjust conviction and the French Army's cover-up. Zola's attack was published in a front page story about the case in his newspaper under the headline:
SLIDE – J'Accuse!
…in enormous type. More than 300,000 copies of the newspaper were sold and French public sentiment began swinging to Dreyfus' side. Eventually, Dreyfus, after a second guilty verdict, was found innocent of all charges and returned to the Army where he was awarded the French Legion of Honor.
SLIDE
The history behind the Zionist Movement
Now, why is this Dreyfus Affair so important in the history of this world? While Dreyfus was being publicly humiliated in his first trial, a French crowd surrounded the courtyard where Dreyfus was being stripped of all of his ribbons. This crowd began screaming "Death to the Jews! Death to all Jews!" In the crowd there happened to be a journalist named Theodor Herzl,
SLIDE – Theodor Herzl
…was covering the trial for an Austrian newspaper. Herzl was also a Jew. And when he heard the shouts of the crowds crying out "Death to all Jews!" and he watched the public humiliation of this innocent soldier, he realized that Jews would never be treated fairly in Europe. Even in liberal France crowds were screaming for Jewish blood. And so Herzl went through a radical shift in his thinking and he came to the conviction that it was impossible to ever root anti-Semitism out of the European soul. So in 1896 Herzl founded The World Zionist Organization which called for the creation of a Jewish state in the Jews' historic homeland – Palestine.
Eventually Herzl's dream became a reality. Following the shocking discovery of the extent of the Nazi slaughter of Jews during WWII, in 1948 the Jewish State of Israel was formally recognized by the newly formed United Nations. Many Christians around the world, and even today, saw the creation of the State of Israel as the clearest sign of the present day fulfillment of prophecies written in the Bible thousands of years ago.
Now, the issue of Israel is not just academic to me. Most of you know that I was raised in a Jewish family. And in terms of my personal identity, I consider myself to be a Jew who believes that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, the one promised by the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. There are three branches of modern-day Judaism. The strictest, that is the most adherent to Jewish tradition, is called Orthodox Judaism. The most liberal is called Reformed Judaism. And the middle is called Conservative Judaism. I was raised in the branch of Judaism known as Conservative Judaism.
So, growing up I went to a synagogue in which the prayers were all said in Hebrew. I wore the skull cap known as the yarmulke and a prayer shawl known as a tallis each week as I attended synagogue – and I attended weekly. I went to Hebrew School and Hebrew High School. I was bar mitzvah which is a rite of passage for Jewish boys at age 13. In growing up I had a deep attachment to Israel. I gave money as a child to plant trees in Israel. At Jewish holidays we always greeted each other with the Hebrew greeting, L'shana habaa biyerushalayim which means "Next year in Jerusalem."
In other words, next year may we celebrate this holiday in Jerusalem. As a child I celebrated the victory of the 6-Day War. We won! I remember saying that in my 6th grade class, "We won!" My Roman Catholic teacher responded and said, "The State Department doesn't recognize the victory in Israel as an American victory." I thought to myself in the 6th grade, "Well, maybe it is not an American victory, but it is my victory!" I even considered leaving college my freshman year and joining the Israeli Army when the Yom Kippur Day War broke out in 1973. I would have been able to do this as a Jew. I could have immediately enlisted in the Israeli Army.
Now, Israel is at the very center of almost all of the great divisions in the world today, especially the division between America and the Arab world. Many Christians believe that America must support Israel because the land was promised to the Jews by God 4000 years ago. And many Christians see the formation of Israel as the major sign that the return of Jesus Christ is near. Other Christians are not so sure. As we continue this series on the end times, I've called today's talk, "How Should Christians Relate to the state of Israel?" Let's pray.
SLIDE
The background behind believing that the land is no longer promised exclusively to the Jewish people
SLIDE
The land was promised to the descendents of Abraham
Now in the first book of the Bible, the book of Genesis, God promised the land now known as Israel and the surrounding territory around Israel to the descendents of Abraham. So, for example, we read in Genesis 15.18-19 these words:
SLIDE – Ge 15:18-19
18On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates—
19the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites,
And this promise of the land that stretches from the Nile River in Egypt to include all of the Sinai Peninsula in Israel to parts of Lebanon, Jordan and Syria all the way to the Euphrates River in modern-day Iraq
SLIDE – Map of Middle East – Nile River to Euphrates River
…was repeated a number of times throughout the Old Testament. So we read in Exodus 23.31 these words:
SLIDE – Ex 23:31
31"I will establish your borders from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean Sea, and from the desert to the Euphrates River. I will give into your hands the people who live in the land, and you will drive them out before you.
Even the most zealous promoters of the idea that the land of Israel was promised to the Jewish people 4000 years ago because of the promise to Abraham don't today hold to these biblical boundaries. So when someone says the land was promised to the Jewish people, it is appropriate to ask, what are the boundaries of the promised land? And if you don't have a problem with Israel not encompassing all of Jordan and Syria and parts of Iraq, why do you say it is unbiblical to negotiate with the Palestinians about the West Bank. In fact, this promise to Abraham of the enormous plot of ground in Genesis 15 was fulfilled 1000 years later during the reign of the third Israelite King named King Solomon. Here is what we read in 2 Chronicles 9.26,
SLIDE – 2 Ch 9:26
26He ruled over all the kings from the Euphrates River to the land of the Philistines, as far as the border of Egypt.
The question today, of course, is whether the promise to Abraham means that the current state of Israel, as a Jewish Nation, has a biblical claim to the strip of land they are occupying. This is a huge political question. It may be THE single biggest religious/political question facing the world today. Does Israel have a biblical claim, not only to the land as set up by the United Nations in 1948, but according to Genesis 15:18-19, to the West Bank and Gaza, to portions of Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, and all the way to Iraq? Can the current Middle East dispute simply be settled by citing some of the Old Testament verses I just quoted? The land belongs to the Jewish people – period, end of case.
You know, a lot of conservative Christians in our country believe this to be the case. This is certainly the view of virtually all of the televangelists like John Haggi, Pat Robertson, and Jerry Falwell before his death. This is the view of Dallas Theological Seminary. This is the view of the International Christian Embassy and end-time writers like Tim LaHaye and Hal Lindsey and Mike Evans. This is the view of many people in our government. The issue of the land is certainly something that sincere Christians can differ over.
You know, as a Jewish believer in Jesus, as a man who prays to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob every day of my life, and who grew up praying "next year in Jerusalem," as a Jew who loves my own people, who knows our history, I have a deep commitment to a Jewish State of Israel. But as a believer in Jesus as my Messiah and Lord, I have struggled with the idea for years that the hopes, aspirations, homes, families, safety, and the very lives of millions of Arabs don't seem to matter to my fellow Christians. As a Jew I understand what it feels like from a history of being victimized by enemies too strong for you. I deeply empathize with Arabs whose homes and lives have been taken because the Israeli army backed by America is too strong for them.
When Christians cavalierly say that the Bible gives the land to the Jews, then what the Arab, and the broader Muslim community hears is: You Christians care nothing about me, or my family at all. I mean nothing to you as an Arab, whether I am a fellow Christian or a Muslim. And Muslims say, I suppose I mean nothing to your God. Your Bible is not worth reading.
Why should an Arab or Muslim embrace something that tells that person that their family, their history, their home, their life doesn't matter? I really grieve when I hear local Christian radio hosts and TV evangelists speak as if every Arab is a terrorist and The Bible has nothing but bad news for Palestinians. I think to myself: Have you spent even 30 seconds walking in the shoes of an Arab?
Do you know that the Arabs who occupy Palestine, many of them can trace their lineage back to Christianity before the 7th century when they were overwhelmed by the Muslim invasion. Many Palestinian Christians have lost their land through all of these wars. I think to myself when we cavalierly say: Well, the Bible simply doesn't give you the land – sorry! How would you feel if you got your house knocked down or your niece, nephew or son or daughter was shot in front of you? I'm really saddened about the current post-9/11 American Christian culture that writes off a billion Arabs and Muslims, and views all Arabs and Muslims as terrorists or potential terrorists.
I know the approach I'm about to take will be new for many of you. But I ask you to consider this truth. Jesus Christ, who is, according to the Bible, both the Prince of Peace and the God of Justice, passionately desires both peace and justice for both Jews and Palestinians.
I've spoken very rarely about this subject, but as a follower of Jesus coming from a Jewish background, I think that the Israeli-Palestinian Crisis that has affected the entire world cannot be resolved simply by appealing to a few Old Testament texts. In fact, I do not believe that the promises in the Old Testament that give Abraham and his descendents the land apply to the modern state of Israel at all. Why, as a Jewish follower of Jesus, do I disagree with the most popular American Christian interpretation of the Old Testament promises? (And, by the way, a significant percentage of Jews living in Israel and virtually all Middle Eastern-born Christians, as well as all American Christian missionaries to the Muslim world, disagree with the most common American Christian view of the Old Testament promises. But I do believe that the scriptures, both Old and New Testaments, point a way forward in the Middle East conflict.)
Let me share with you five biblical reasons why, as a Jewish believer in Jesus, disagree with the most common American Christian view of the Old Testament promises and how I believe the Bible offers a real answer for the current Middle East conflict.
First of all, the land was never owned by the Jews. The land always belonged to God. The Jews were simply tenants in the land. Leviticus 25.23 says this:
SLIDE – Le 25:23
23" 'The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine and you reside in my land as foreigners and strangers.
In other words, the land promised to the descendents of Abraham in the Old Testament was always to be thought of as a gift to Abraham's descendents, not as a legal right, or a claim.
SLIDE
The land was always a gift and not a legal right.
It is so important in an age of entitlement where everyone screams as loud as they can about their rights; we have different groups marching about their rights; we who claim to follow Jesus nail down in our minds this distinction between gift and right. Because the notion of everything in life that is good coming to us as a gift, not as a right, but as a gift is absolutely essential to Christian growth and maturity. When we Christians survey our lives especially before Thanksgiving, we have to understand that everything that is good in our lives has been given to us as a gift by God, not as a legal claim or our right.
And this distinction between gift and right should lead us to at a few thoughts about our own lives. First, if something precious is taken from us – if we lose our homes in a fire, or our cars in an accident, or our health through a disease, or a loved one through death, the issue, brother and sister, is not why God did you allow this to happen at this time. That is probably going to be our first reaction. But some of you have suffered loss and have gone on to a deeper and more mature reflection regarding your loss. You have come to say not why God did you allow this to happen, but why God did you allow me to have this precious gift so long?
There is a little book by John Claypool called "Tracks of a Fellow Struggler" in which John Claypool tells of the horror of losing his 10-year old to leukemia. A couple of years after his death, when he was able to look back from a little distance, he said,
SLIDE
"At least it makes things bearable when I remember that Laura Lue was a gift, pure and simple, something I had neither earned nor deserved nor had a right to. And when I remember that the appropriate response to a gift, even when it is taken away, is gratitude, then I am better able to try and thank God that I was given her in the first place…the way of gratitude does not alleviate the pain, but it somehow puts some light around the darkness and builds strength to begin to move on."
Gifts, not rights – why God did you allow me to have health so long? Why, God, did you permit me in your goodness to enjoy my spouse so long? My incredible child? My amazing mother or father? My job? I don't have a claim on anything in this world – nothing has to be. And especially this week of Thanksgiving, survey your life both the wonderful things that you currently have and the precious things that you used to have that have been taken from you and say, "God thank you for these gifts. Thank you for your generosity." Take time this week to say thank you to God.
The land promised in the Old Testament was always a gift. Here is the second thing, if Israel disobeyed God, they would lose their right to live in the land.
SLIDE
The land would be lost if Israel disobeyed God.
This is said over and over again throughout the Old Testament. For example, we read this in Lev. 18.24 and 28,
SLIDE – Le 18:24, 28
24" 'Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled.
28And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.
And we see the same thing in Deut. 4.25-27,
SLIDE – Dt 4:25-27
25After you have had children and grandchildren and have lived in the land a long time—if you then become corrupt and make any kind of idol, doing evil in the eyes of the Lord your God and arousing his anger,
26I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you this day that you will quickly perish from the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess. You will not live there long but will certainly be destroyed.
27The Lord will scatter you among the peoples, and only a few of you will survive among the nations to which the Lord will drive you.
Exile from the land was always threatened by God as a punishment for Israelite disobedience to the Lord.
Now, God doesn't make idle threats. So when the Northern Kingdom of Israel with its capital in Samaria sinned against God, God carried out his threat of punishment and drove the Northern Kingdom of Israel into exile. And a little over a hundred years later when the Southern Kingdom of Judah sinned against God, just like its northern sister, the Lord exiled the Jews of Judah. Here is what we read in Jer. 9.13-16,
SLIDE – Je 9:13-16
13The Lord said, "It is because they have forsaken my law, which I set before them; they have not obeyed me or followed my law.
14Instead, they have followed the stubbornness of their hearts; they have followed the Baals, as their ancestors taught them."
15Therefore, this is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: "See, I will make this people eat bitter food and drink poisoned water.
16I will scatter them among nations that neither they nor their ancestors have known, and I will pursue them with the sword until I have made an end of them."
Now, does anyone believe, even among the most zealous Christian advocates, that the modern secular state of Israel in which a high percentage of Jewish people do not even believe in God, and a high percentage of Israeli Jews would label themselves as atheists, does anyone believe that this state is living in obedience and submission to God's law?
The Old Testament never ever separated obedience to God's law and the gracious gift of being able to live in the Promised Land. The land was forfeited, in other words, when people turned their backs on God.
But let me for a moment move away from this focus on the Middle East and apply these principles that we're learning to those of us who claim to be followers of Jesus today. See, the story of God's relationship with Israel in the Old Testament is not simply meant to be of interest only to students of ancient history. Whenever you read the Old Testament as a follower of Christ, you ought to say to yourself, "this story of Israel is my story as a follower of Jesus." The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has not changed. God will treat me and God will treat you the same way he treated the Israelites. Do you know that?
Do you know that this is same God of the Old and New Testament, the same story, the same way of relating? Here is what the apostle Paul says in 1 Cor 10.6-12,
SLIDE – 1 Co 10:6-12
6Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did.
7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry."
8We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died.
9We should not test Christ, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes.
10And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.
11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.
12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!
We are repeatedly warned against presuming upon God's grace. Don't be like the Israelites, Paul says. We are repeatedly warned against presuming upon God's grace. What does it mean to presume on God's grace? Have you ever said to yourself, "I can do whatever I want because I believe in Jesus and I've asked Jesus into my heart, so God will still bless me." I have, in other words, a "get out of jail free" card that I can pull out at any time and use it on God. God can't do anything about it.
"Hey, God, I know what you want. Your Word is crystal clear. But I won't do it. And I say this with all respect to you, God, but you can't discipline me because I believe in Jesus."
There are so many things that happen, friends, when a Christian sins. You will lose a sense of God's presence, if you continue to live in disobedience to God. The Bible says in 1 John 1.5-7 these words:
SLIDE – 1 Jn 1:5-7
5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
6If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
You won't feel God's presence, his fellowship, his closeness. You won't feel connection to God while you live in sin. And your ministry, the power of anything God wants to do through your life, and your fruitfulness will be damaged. God will eventually switch off the power. And you can become a slave of sin. Paul warns us about that. And many of us know this one – becoming addicted. There are so many negative things that happen when we live in disobedience to God. The story of the Israelites is our story. They were exiled for their disobedience. And we can experience huge distance from God when we turn our backs on God. And some of you are experiencing huge distance from God today.
But God promised a return from exile. When the people of Israel repented, God promised to restore the people to their land. Here is what we read in Jeremiah 29.10-14,
SLIDE – Je 29:10-14
10This is what the Lord says: "When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will come to you and fulfill my good promise to bring you back to this place.
11For I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
12Then you will call on me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you.
13You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
14I will be found by you," declares the Lord, "and will bring you back from captivity. I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you," declares the Lord, "and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile."
SLIDE
The land would be restored if Israel repented.
And these promises and prophecies of return from exile were fulfilled during the reign of Persian King Cyrus back in the 6th century BC from their captivity in Babylon. God brought the Jewish people back. Here is what we read in 2 Chron. 36.22-23,
SLIDE – 2 Ch 36:22-23
22In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the Lord spoken by Jeremiah, the Lord moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and also to put it in writing:
23"This is what Cyrus king of Persia says: " 'The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem in Judah. Any of his people among you—may the Lord their God be with them, and let them go up.' "
In applying this principle to our lives, brothers and sisters, when we repent we are restored to a place where we can receive blessing as well. Listen to me now. I am not saying that all will go well in your life if you obey God. Obedient people often experience great difficulty in this fallen world. There is not an exact one to one correspondence between obedience and blessing and disobedience and a lack of blessing. The world is broken. The rewards are not always handed out fairly in this broken world.
But if you are going through significant, ongoing, trouble in your life, you might want to examine your life and ask God, "God, why is this happening to me? Is this a result of your fatherly discipline?" It may not be. It may be the result of life in a fallen broken world. But it is right to ask God if you are going through a hard time and it is not stopping, "Have I offended you, Father? Is there an area of my life that you are trying to put your finger on that I am just not listening to you? Father, am I in exile, far from your blessing in my search for work? Or I'm having so much trouble on my job? Far from your blessing concerning peace in my home? My finances? My health? A difficult situation with a loved one?"
Again, let me say as plainly as I can that I do not believe that all difficulty and suffering in a fallen world is necessarily the result of disobedience. But some of it is. And we'd be less than biblical if we didn't say that sometimes we can live under the fatherly discipline and displeasure of God. We need to ask God that question with an open heart: Am I being squeezed and pressed as a disciplinary matter?
SLIDE
The view of the land by Jesus and the apostles
Here is the fourth thing: Jesus and the apostles, especially the apostle Paul, reinterpreted all the promises given to Abraham in light of Jesus' coming. Because Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, because the Christ of God has come, every single promise in the Old Testament, every single statement, every command and ritual and symbol is seen in an entirely new light. The coming of Christ changes our vision of everything. It is the difference, ladies, of what your skin or hair color looks like in a dimly lit room and what it looks like in the sunlight. It is the difference of when you're moving of what your couch looks like in your dimly lit living room and what it looks like when you move it outside and you say, "Oh my goodness, this couch is filthy and faded."
The coming of Jesus sheds an entirely new light on the whole Old Testament and all of its promises and all of its statements. For example, in light of the coming of Jesus into the world, who are the children of Abraham today?
SLIDE
Who are the descendents of Abraham?
Who can say today according to the New Testament, "I am a descendent of Abraham? I am one of Abraham's kids?" Listen to what the first New Testament prophet, John the Baptist, said to the Jewish people living in his day. Luke 3.7-9,
SLIDE – Lk 3:7-9
7John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?
8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.
9The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire."
And on a more positive note, listen to what the apostle Paul said about who the true children of Abraham are today in Gal. 3.26-29,
SLIDE – Ga 3:26-29
26So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith,
27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Now, what do the children of Abraham, who become children of Abraham through faith in Messiah Jesus, inherit? What is the promise given to us as sons and daughters of God, as the newly constituted people of God, as the holy nation of God? These are all names given by New Testament writers to followers of Jesus. What is our inheritance?
SLIDE
What is the inheritance promised to us today?
Is it a piece of ground in the Middle East? Is it the West Bank? The Gaza Strip? The Sinai Peninsula? Listen to the apostle Paul's answer in Romans 4.13,
SLIDE – Ro 4:13
13It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
I want you to hear from what I believe is one of the very best and most balanced books on how Christians should think about the land of Israel. It is called "Whose Promised Land: The Continuing Crisis Over Israel and Palestine" by Colin Chapman. If you love the Bible and you enjoy history, you might want to pick up this book in our bookstore.
Again, Romans 4.13 says this:
SLIDE – Ro 4:13
13It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
Here is what we read in Colin Chapman's book:
SLIDE
Paul is here referring to the promise in Genesis that Abraham and his descendents would inherit the land, but that in referring to this promise, he substitutes "the world" for "the land." In other words, for Paul, the "children of Abraham," are those Jews and Gentiles who through faith in Christ have been made righteous. The "land" becomes the "world" which is the inheritance of the righteous. In Paul's thinking therefore, all the divine promises in one way or another find their fulfillment in Christ. And all Christians, both Jews and Gentiles, who place their faith in Jesus are "Abraham's seed" and therefore inheritors of the promise given to Abraham.
Jesus says that our inheritance is not merely the world, our inheritance as children of Abraham is the kingdom of God. See, the return from exile and the re-gathering of Abraham's children from the four corners of the world was not fulfilled according to Jesus in 1948 with the Israeli declaration of independence. The re-gathering of the people of Israel – well, listen to the words of Jesus himself speaking to a Roman centurion who believed that Christ would heal his servant who was sick at home simply by saying a word without Jesus actually having to go to the servant; and, Jesus echoing the promise of re-gathering and restoration from exile and from Isaiah 43 says this in Matthew 8.10-12,
SLIDE – Mt 8:10-12
10When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
11I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
12But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
See, the bottom line, brothers and sisters, is that nowhere in any New Testament writing does Jesus or Paul or the apostle John or Peter or any other New Testament writer reaffirm the promise of a piece of land to the Jewish people. The Old Testament promises have been extended and furthered beyond any Old Testament horizon to include not just the Middle East, but the world and not only the world, but the kingdom of God; and, to include not only people who are Jews by way of natural descent, like me, but to include you who are Jews by spiritual descent through your faith and my faith in Jesus.
See, the question that divides Christians today, and let me put it as starkly as I can put it – here is the question: Did Jesus and the apostle Paul properly interpret the Old Testament regarding who are God's people today, what is the covenant promise, and how we should think about the promised land?
SLIDE
Did Jesus and Paul properly interpret the Old Testament?
In other words, can we trust Jesus and the apostle Paul as Old Testament scholars and Old Testament interpreters? Are Jesus and the apostle Paul our authorities for interpreting various passages from the Old Testament so that we read the Old Testament in light of the New Testament. Or I say this with all affection and respect, should we trust instead Tim LaHaye and Hal Lindsey, and Pat Robertson, and John Haggi, and all the other folks on TV, and who write books in the biblical prophecy section of the bookstores, and read the Old Testament as if the Messiah had never come and the New Testament had never been written?
This is the great divide. When you read the promises in the Old Testament, especially about the land, do you read them the way that Jesus and Paul read them, or do you read them as if the coming of Jesus did not radically reinterpret everything, shedding entirely new light, entirely new understanding on all that we see in the Old Testament.
SLIDE
The view of the land today
And here is where I'm at as a Jewish believer in Jesus, as a person who has come to trust Jesus as my authority in life and my ultimate interpreter of God's Word found in the Old Testament. Jesus is my supreme, infallible interpreter of the Bible. I do not believe that it is right for any Christian whether you became a Christian from a Gentile background, or you became a Christian from a Jewish background, I do not believe it is right or biblical to resolve the current political dispute between the Israelis and the Palestinians based on quoting a few verses from the Old Testament. I think we are pulling those verses entirely out of context and we are reading them in a way that Jesus himself and the apostle Paul and the other apostles did not read them.
Now, does this mean that the Jews have no claim to their historic homeland? I didn't say that. I said you can't base Jewish claims to the land on promises made by God 4000 years ago to the descendents of Abraham. Now listen, I do believe, as a matter of biblical justice, not the promise of God to Abraham, but as a matter of justice, biblical justice, that the Jewish people do have a claim to at least a portion of that land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. Biblical Justice.
SLIDE
What would biblical justice demand?
Why do I say this? I believe that the world owes the Jewish people a secure nation in their historic homeland in light of 2000 years of the world's treatment of the Jewish people. We cannot read world history, especially the history of the 20th century and the Holocaust, with its systematic slaughter of 6 million Jews and participation of so many countries in the world of that slaughter, including the United States. We shut our borders to Jewish refugees. We sent Jews back to Nazi Germany to be exterminated. We cannot read the history of the world without coming to the conclusion that Jews can never be ultimately secure in a nation ruled by others – whether ruled by the Germans, the French, the Russians, the Americans, or the Arabs. As a matter of biblical justice, Jews must have a nation in their own historic homeland.
But biblical justice, brothers and sisters, cuts in two directions. It also cuts in the direction of the Palestinians. And when Palestinians, who can trace their ancestry back 1300 years in the land, are pushed off of their land, and Palestinian children are murdered in bombing raids, when houses are knocked down, and men, women, and children are systematically humiliated and abused, biblical justice stands up for the victim and says this must not continue. We must have justice for both Jew and Palestinian.
And any one-sided tilt is less than justice. Do you know, justice not only for Jews, but for Palestinians is what a lot of Israelis are working for. This is what virtually every Christian who lives in the Middle East believes. President Bush had the courage of proposing a two-state solution. His Secretary of State, Condolesa Rice, has been courageously advocating for a two-state solution. Tony Blair and other respected world leaders, said that we need a two-state solution. I'm not going to stand up here and say that this is easy, this is simple. There are so many unresolved problems – terrorism, political complications, water rights, outside countries – but the God of the Bible cares for all people – not just Jews. The God of the Bible works justice for all the oppressed, not just Jews.
So what is the way forward? How can there be peace in the Middle East?
SLIDE
What would biblical peace require?
You know, peace in any relationship begins when two unreconciled people are willing to listen to the hurt and pain of the other person and not just their own hurt and pain. If you are married and you are distant from your spouse, you are alienated, the only way you will ever be brought together is if at some point you open yourself up to hear the hurt, the wounds, the pain that you caused to your spouse. If you simply insist that they understand your hurt and pain, and you are not willing to ever listen to the pain and hurt that you have caused, there is no possibility of true reconciliation. People have to get past simply telling their own story. They have to listen to the story of the other person. We can't have peace unless we walk in the other person's shoes.
And what is true at a personal level is also true at a national level. Palestinians must acknowledge that the Jewish Holocaust changed everything for the Jewish people and the pain experienced through the Holocaust and subsequent terrorist attacks deeply affect the Jewish need for security. And Israelis must acknowledge that the discrimination, and bombing, and displacement of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians deeply affects the way Palestinians relate to the State of Israel today. Here is where I think Christians have an opportunity to be bridge builders and peace wagers.
SLIDE
What should Christians do?
If we Christians become truly just arbiters, if we stop communicating to Palestinians that none of their claims are legitimate, that they are all just terrorists, that Christ has nothing good to say to them, that the only blessing of God is a blessing upon the Jewish people – if we Christians repent of our biases and our prejudices and offer ourselves as possible bridge people; this will take a mammoth degree of work in earning the trust of both Israelis and Palestinians; I think that in Jesus' name we could assist in this process of reconciliation and peace. I have hope for us as Christians. I believe we can change. I believe that if we do change, if we become people who love justice and love peace, there is hope for peace in the Middle East.
Let's pray.
How Should Christians Relate to the State of Israel?
The History Behind the Zionist Movement
II. The Background Behind Believing that the Land is no longer promised exclusively to the Jewish People
A. The land was promised to the descendents of Abraham
(Gen. 15.18, 19; Ex. 23.31)
B. The land was always a gift and not a legal right (Lev. 25.23)
The land would be lost if Israel disobeyed God
(Lev. 18.24, 28; Dt. 4.25-27; 1 Cor. 100.6-12)
The land would be restored if Israel reprented
(Jer. 29.10-14; 2 Chron. 36.22, 23)
III. The View of the Land by Jesus and the Apostles
A. Who are the descendents of Abraham? (Lk. 3.8, 9; Gal. 3.26-29)
B. What is the inheritance promised to us today?
(Rom. 4.13; Mt. 8.10-12)
C. Did Jesus and Paul properly interpret the Old Testament?
IV. The View of the Land Today
A. What would biblical justice demand?
B. What would biblical peace require?
C. What should Christians do?








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Comments
Powerful! And right in line with historical Christian thinking on this topic.
Blessings to Pastor Nathan, from right here in Columbus!
Peace,
Posted by: Don | January 14, 2008 1:45 PM
Excellent article - it distributes justice to both the Jews and the Palestinians.
I support the state of Israel as it is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East, but I am against the illegal occupation of the Palestinian Territories. Not as much spiritual but for political purposes, I believe it was important to start the State of Israel due to the failure of Europe and America to deal with the increasingly anti-Semitic threat (the longest hatred of a people in human history). Even today, much Europe has lionized Israel as the moral pariah of the Middle East without considering the fact that Kuwait banished 300,000 Palestinians in Gulf War I, Palestinians cannot own land or become professionals and Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia will not even immigrate the Palestinians. Anti-Semitic threats are increasingly rising in Europe today. Young Jewish children are beaten up at school by Arab gangs. In Aix-en-Provence, France, a Jewish teenager was attacked by three masked men who ripped off her Star of David necklace and carved a Star of David in arm. In 2005, 87 European graves have been desecrated and 117 Jewish cemeteries have been vandalized in Western Europe. I have witnessed a professor in Dallas say that "Jewish people may have bee the chosen people but they F***ed it up - the Jews control everything from the media, to Wall Street to the New York Times, etc." Many protests against the occupation contain offensive, tasteless drawings of the Jews reminiscent of the blood libels and "Protocols of the Elders of Zion." Many do not understand that the Israeli people hold themselves to a very high standard - the debate is just not as common at all in the U.S as it is in Israel.
With that being said, democracies are imperfect, and I know Israel holds itself to higher standards than illegal occupations and militaristic abuses. This is why it is important to listen to Christian peace-makers such as Jimmy Carter, Jim Wallis and yourself who support the well-being and existence of the state of Israel, but understand that in order to bridge peace, Israel must cease the illegal occupation of Palestinian territory. As Christians, we need to ensure justice for both sides. The Palestinians are self-respecting people and have been abused by the Arabs as well. Many who engage in terrorism claim to do so for the Palestinian plight, but they could honestly care less. Many just want them to be oppressed to fulfill their sickly goals.
Posted by: Drew | January 14, 2008 3:21 PM
I thought this was way too one sided myself .
The only times Palestinians have the opportunity to vote is in Isreal , because they are a democracy . its in America's bst interest to support Israel and of course to be friends also with the Middle ast Countries .
The arguements of borders ? I believe if Israel had the confidence that that they would stop being a target the situation would change .
If say we had Canada taking pot shots at us from here in Victoria , and the US attacked and took over Victoria , I don't see us giving it back till we were assured that Canada would go back to being a good neigbor ?
Posted by: Mick | January 14, 2008 3:24 PM
I thought it was quite balanced, actually. Not many who argue that the New Testament doesn't support the notion of a biblically mandated nation-state for the Jews demand at the same time that justice itself demands a homeland for the Jews in the Middle East.
A balanced Middle East foreign policy demands that we weigh this need for a Jewish homeland with the legitimate concerns of the Palestinians. One-sidedness rests not with Pastor Nathan but with those on both extremes of the Israel-Palestine question.
Peace,
Posted by: Don | January 14, 2008 3:37 PM
Mick: The arguements of borders? I believe if Israel had the confidence that that they would stop being a target the situation would change.
Therein lies the problem for a lasting peace, and Israel's self-preservation concerns have to come first. With Hamas insisting that Israel must cease to exist, is a meaningful peace even possible? I doubt it.
Posted by: Cads | January 14, 2008 4:14 PM
Once again this site refuses to post my offering without going through the powers that be.
You can read what i brought to this table on WAWA Blog January 14, 2008:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
When Leaders Fail; People Will Lead:
On January 26, 2008, nonviolent, justice and peace activists distressed over the humanitarian crisis in Gaza will not offer them cake; but clean water...
Posted by: Eileen Fleming | January 14, 2008 5:16 PM
Excellent sermon, clearly prepared in the spirit of Jesus, not of any human partisanship.
In response to Cads, yes the Hamas position is a major obstacle to a peaceful settlement. But the question is how to get Hamas to change their position - there are plenty of precedents of violent organisations doing so when their opponents engage them in dialogue. And keeping Gaza in a state of siege is not going to achieve this.
Mark
Posted by: mark | January 14, 2008 5:24 PM
Hey Eileen,
Perhaps if your posts weren't at least as long as the person starting the subject post and if you stayed more on subject, you'd have more success!
Posted by: Cads | January 14, 2008 5:32 PM
Whoa! Cads beat me to it!
Eileen, yes, perhaps if you edited your own writing more, more of us would be able and willing to read rather than wade through or skip them entirely. In a blog discussion, there is often significantly more value in a point or two being made succinctly, instead of long diatribes being posted. Peace.
Posted by: PSF | January 14, 2008 5:37 PM
Quite a few of her posts are simply copied from her website and posted here. Those darn "copy" and "paste" buttons become very dangerous in certain people's hands!
Posted by: Cads | January 14, 2008 5:39 PM
Add me to the list of those who don't read long posts. The only exception was History Nut.
Jeff
Posted by: Jeff | January 14, 2008 6:17 PM
I'm with Don on this - as usual, I suppose, but I can claim particular moral authority here, being part Jewish myself. I couldn't have said it better.
Posted by: Another nonymous | January 14, 2008 7:16 PM
If say we had Canada taking pot shots at us from here in Victoria , and the US attacked and took over Victoria , I don't see us giving it back till we were assured that Canada would go back to being a good neigbor ?
Posted by: Mick | January 14, 2008 3:24 PM
Our Air Force was actually scheduled to take out Seattle tomorrow, but apparently they're having trouble getting the damn plane started.
Posted by: canucklehead | January 14, 2008 7:38 PM
Part of the problem of some conservatives is their skewed view of the world.
Somehow, it speaks volumes that a conservative should somehow compare Canada's situation vis a vis to the United States, as an analogy for that of Israel and Palestine.
It is highly offensive for an American conservative like Mick to talk of invading Canada until it learns to "behave itself" as if everything and anything America has ever done, is doing and might do in the future is automatically justified.
Is this more of the "pre-emtive war" mentality, that says invasion of any nation is justified, given that some day it "might" pose a threat to the well-being of the U.S. (which could include the mere psossession of oil resources "necessary" to America, as Canada certainly does)?
With American conservatives, it appears that's it's not just the unjust blindness of "my country right or wrong" but "my country never wrong."
Especially if we consider that Canada is not the nation militarizing the border between it and the U.S. and does not waste money spending more than all the rest of the world combined on weapons while ignoring the plight of its own ill and uninsured - including its own sick and abandoned military veterans once they're no longer fit for duty.
Posted by: Victoria Cross | January 14, 2008 7:59 PM
Posted by: Eileen Fleming | January 14, 2008 5:16 PM
I have read your posts - most of the time it takes a cups and a half of coffee to get through it. If you would give us the 'Readers Digest Condensed' version - it might make it on the site.
Blessings -
.
Posted by: moderatelad | January 14, 2008 9:57 PM
Victoria C,
I'm sure Mick was only using Canada as an example because of its location, not because of any actual threat or basis in reality. This is not a discussion on how the USA treats its military personnel or how evil conservatives may or may not be. Sheesh - get real.
Posted by: Cads | January 14, 2008 11:15 PM
How glibly, though, demonization in theory rolls off the tongues of those who just don't get it - that neither they nor their allies are the Lords of the earth and of their brothers and sisters in it by birthright.
If the example were reversed, we all know how ramrod such would be in the almost canine, and similarly unthinking, "patriotic" justification of their country's jingoism.
No country in the world now takes America's intentions as benign. We have shown we are capable of the same sorts of things we mightily protested against in the past and will make any excuse to justify whatever it is we want to do, regardless of how it violates our most sacred ideals of human rights.
I have heard, as I am sure you have, public pronouncements about how allies ought to be punished if they won't get into line and do whatever it is America wants to do for its own interests rather than theirs.
We are back to the self-righteousness of "Manifest Destiny" which proclaimed the right to dominate everyone else for their own good - supposedly.
We recognize no international treaty nor transnational organisation as binding on us and alone in all the world assert the right to act unilaterally and extraterritorially, to assert American law on all peoples everywhere and to recognise no legal constraints on our own behavior by anyone else anywhere else.
In this, of course, America shows no more restraint than any other hegemony or imperial power of the past has shown, either.
It is true that Israel, similarly, acts in much the same character towards other nations, violating the religious precepts to which it owes the legitimacy of its founding; it is, however, constrained by limits on its size but the manner of America is becoming much like the same psychological state of siege used to justify any means, including loss of the equal rule and application of law.
Now I get tears at the national anthem as much or more than the next person, but demonising others and trusting in bloated militarism is against everything it means to me.
I sympathise with Hillary choking up at the thought of all the advances after we've come so far being trashed.
Posted by: Victoria Cross | January 15, 2008 12:41 AM
Mick: The arguements of borders? I believe if Israel had the confidence that that they would stop being a target the situation would change
Posted by: Cads
I agree with that I can not imagin living over there , we have had it so good here in this regards , except 9/11 .
We invaded two countries because off that .
Which is why I tried to give a perspective of having missles and bombs coming into our home town and killing people . I thought that might help put ourselves in their shoes .
The people here in our country , regardless the reasons why we were being shot at , would want the bombing to stop first , and the talking to settle it later .
I can see why that would be war mongering to the innocent people who happen to be living in the direction of where the missles were coming from , because now they are being shot at and they were not doing anything either .
The people in power in Isreael at least have a government that is somewhat accountable to
their citizenery , and I believe that is a hope for peace .
The problem as I see it in the long run is as you say Cads , groups like Hamas who go to their own way , and its usually their way or people die . They stop the peace process from going on .
Israel of course is not without fault , or are they always wrong . But consider the fact that they are negotiating at times with people that make Victoria Cross look like a supporter .
Posted by: Mick | January 15, 2008 2:01 AM
Our Air Force was actually scheduled to take out Seattle tomorrow, but apparently they're having trouble getting the damn plane started.
Posted by: canucklehead
Good one Canuck ,
We were hiding all our coffee cups and umbrellas in case you were going to invade us by land .
Actually after Seattle getting its rear ends kicked by Green bay , you would have put many of us out of our misery .
Posted by: Mick | January 15, 2008 2:08 AM
I share very little with the writer theologically though his sermon would have matched my views quite closely earlier in my life. But his conclusions are in profound accord with my own. I know many with no particular theology but live and let live who see the same rather obvious spiritual and humane answers to this ongoing tragedy.
Mick, your views are so one-sided. So many conservatives regard the defense of their homeland and culture as a fundamental human right, but cannot extend sympathy or understanding to those who have been displaced or abused by Israel or any other entity they regard for the geo-political moment as an ally. I never hear humanitarian defenders of the Palestinians laud them for violence against Israel, but so many who call themselves conservatives avidly support every aggression, every bullet, every olive orchard bulldozed. every cluster-bomb dropped by the Israeli army or civilians. How is it that no matter how many more Palestinians have been killed or displaced than Israelis, and no matter that all the loss of land has been on the Palestinian side, still it is the Palestinians who are threatening Israel. How do people manage to believe this story? I understand the centuries old desire of Jews for a secure homeland. What I cannot understand is how a people who were bullied, robbed and ghettoized so often cannot manage to treat the Palestinians as they would themselves be treated.
God is Love and the spirit is not male or female, Jew or Greek, neither is the maker's house a piece of land, but a peace of heart.
Have you ever tried reading books or stories that present these issues and events from a Palestinian"s experience?
Posted by: jonabark | January 15, 2008 2:23 AM
Eilleen
Glad your post got through. Good to provide means of action, too.
Posted by: jonabark | January 15, 2008 2:33 AM
I see that Eileen got her complete post to go through and it's shorter than Pastor Nathan's! A good read if you like Palestinian propaganda.
Victoria, your criticism of America relating to this topic is unjustified in that Bush and Rice are now in the middle east pushing for a two-state solution compromise. Perhaps your "Manifest Destiny" claim might be appropriate on another post, but not here. Please focus and stay on topic or get together with Hillary and have yourselves a good cry over the sorry state of America.
Posted by: Cads | January 15, 2008 2:55 AM
Wow ... what diversity of thought. I'm actually one of those that believes God's everlasting word concerning Israel. I don't abide injustice - whether it's from Israel, or the Palestinian peoples (which is a misnomer ...). And, while Israel's rockets and war planes may be viewed as terrorist weapons, they hardly compare to the bombs strapped to mortals that walk into restaurants and banks. Anyway, it would be altogether lovely were the two peoples able to live side-by-side in harmony, but I'm not about to endorse a "state within a state" solution, and certainly not the cannibalization of Jerusalem.
Posted by: Sassy Granny | January 15, 2008 7:08 AM
If I am sensitive to the Palestinian view am I allowed to mention the name of that nation being discussed here?
Posted by: letjusticerolldown | January 15, 2008 9:16 AM
I believe that there could be and in many ways should be dou-states for Israelies and Palestinians. Has anyone read the history about how other countries in the Mideast have handled the Palestinians in the past? They don't want the Palestinians either. Many have killed thousands of Palestinians to keep them out of their country.
Blessings -
.
Posted by: Moderatelad | January 15, 2008 11:26 AM
As Malcolm Muggeridge observed, the history of the human race can be succinctly stated as "who, whom" and
in this, every nation, every people is as complicit as any other.
Posted by: N.M. Rod | January 15, 2008 12:46 PM
I think one thing that's missing from the debate -- especially from Israel's die-hard supporters among Christians -- is the purpose for which God created ancient Israel. Guess what -- it wasn't for its own aggrandizement, to rub in everyone's faces that "We are God's chosen." Chosen for what? So that God could bless the whole world through Israel -- but the ancient nation got so hooked on its own nationalism that it overlooked that. That should change the tone of the whole Israel/Palestine question.
Posted by: Rick Nowlin | January 15, 2008 12:57 PM
Has anyone read the history about how other countries in the Mideast have handled the Palestinians in the past? They don't want the Palestinians either.
Well, there's certainly enough blame to go around in this situation. But will pointing fingers at this group and at that group and then assigning blame for this and for that help solve the problem? If we want to obey Christ and become peacemakers, we need to first examine ourselves and expose the faults within ourselves that keep us from working for peace. Only then can we hope to find a way forward.
Chosen for what? So that God could bless the whole world through Israel.
And ultimately, God's blessing of the world through Israel came through his Messiah, born of the bloodline of Judah, through whom all the nations of the earth are blessed. We can never forget that Jesus--not a parcel of real estate in the Middle East--is the ultimate fulfillment of all God's promises to Israel.
Peace,
Posted by: Don | January 15, 2008 1:15 PM
Agree N.M.Rod. Agree Rick. I also agree with the article. I like Rev. Hagee's unequivocal desire to say we love Israel and Jewish people--period.
And it seems the love of Jesus extends equally to the Palestinians, to Hamas, to Arab Christians, etc. Period.
We need to begin with our what we can do. And for one the Evangelical leaders who are countering each other's voices in "representation of us" are feeding confusion when their interests are not even contradictory on many counts. STOP IT! PLEASE GET PAST WHATEVER KEEPS YOU FROM TALKING!For the sake of Jesus; that the glory of God might be proclaimed to the nations; for the shalom of God. Stop acting like wee little helpless pawns that cannot get on an airplane and sit down for a day to love each other, pray, negotiate and lead.
That is intended as a rebuke in love. If you have done so and found other Christian leaders to refuse to pray and work; then seek avenues of accountabilty and discipline. I understand leadership is not easy. But so do you.
I weary of leaders in Washington, the United Nations, Cairo, Amman, Damascus, and Beirut who both wage war while refusing to make peace. We are to steward that which God has granted as Rick highlights re: God's call on Israel. And I weary of Christian leaders who will not seek and serve each other in the love of Jesus so as to express the bountiful, just, love of a saviour who laid down all He could have rightfully held onto--for us--while we were rebellious, sinners.
At mealtimes my little girls thank Jesus for many people in their lives and the people on the other side of the Earth. It is possible to obey our Lord.
Posted by: letjusticerolldown | January 15, 2008 1:26 PM
The fact remains that many Arab groups and some Arab countries do not recognize Israel's right to exist. I truly feel for Arab innocents who are caught up in this hatred, but Israel must have a way to survive. Until its right to exist is recognized, all the talk in the world will do no good. Land can be ceded, papers can be signed, promises can be made, and nothing will change until Arabs recognize the right for Jews to live. Only then would there be a real chance for peace.
Posted by: Cads | January 15, 2008 2:23 PM
Posted by: Don | January 15, 2008 1:15 PM
'...pointing fingers at this group and at that group and then assigning blame...'
Not looking at blame, but knowing what has gone on in the past and way would help everyone know what not to use as a foundation for a future peace.
Blessings -
.
Posted by: Moderatelad | January 15, 2008 2:47 PM
"Only when every single Arab loves every Israeli can all Palestinians escape communal punishment, and not before. All Arabs bear complete responsibility for the actions of any single Arab or Palestinian."
Christian "biblicists" ignore the Sermon on the Mount, the definitive statement of the heart of Christianity, of following Jesus, in favor of violence-laced Old Testament "proof-texts" that they take to justify genocide, the "smashing of babies' heads against the rocks."
Isn't it a shame when any religious scriptures are misused to justify genocide?
Jesus wept.
Posted by: Sojourner Truth | January 15, 2008 3:12 PM
Shouldn't we as Christians, being advised by Jesus to be "born again,"to be "as shrewd as a snake, innocent as a dove,"as part of our repentance, examine from many angles our societal programming?
Doesn't our walk with God require us to reconsider much of what have thought to be true?Don't we do a grave disservice to our faith and our saviour if we continue to accept "conventional wisdom," particularly as it applies to our consenting to carrying out unjust and harmful foreign policies?
There are a number of Israelis and Jews that have uncovered the unsavory history of the Zionist movement. They also call into question the myths of ongoing Arab aggression and the unreported and rejected overtures for normalized relations and peace.
Curious readers could begin research by Google-ing
Uri Avnery, Norman Finkelstein, Lenni Brenner...
Posted by: El Petey | January 15, 2008 4:21 PM
"Mick, your views are so one-sided. So many conservatives regard the defense of their homeland and culture as a fundamental human right, but cannot extend sympathy or understanding to those who have been displaced or abused by Israel or any other entity they regard for the geo-political moment as an ally."
"sigh"
I agree they are one sided , compared to your two sided I assume ? But I thought I stated that their are innocents on both sides of this situation that happen to be on the side where the missles are coming from , and sometimes on the side where they are going . That a conflict is almost impossible to be resolved till people stop shooting at each other , and their are independent groups that are against Isreael , regardless merited or not , that will not adhere to a a cease fire that other pro Palenstenaian state forces will .
jona stated
" but so many who call themselves conservatives avidly support every aggression, every bullet, every olive orchard bulldozed. every cluster-bomb dropped by the Israeli army or civilians."
Well my one sided position is against that also .
Jona said
"How is it that no matter how many more Palestinians have been killed or displaced than Israelis, and no matter that all the loss of land has been on the Palestinian side, still it is the Palestinians who are threatening Israel."
I don't know , why ? Like I said , till people stop shooting at each other , the exchange of anything will be unlikely .
"How do people manage to believe this story?"
I have no idea what you are talking about !
Jina said
"I understand the centuries old desire of Jews for a secure homeland. What I cannot understand is how a people who were bullied, robbed and ghettoized so often cannot manage to treat the Palestinians as they would themselves be treated."
If you need to belive Israel is evil , all wrong , perhaps your right . My one sided view tends to believe their is a religious, historial, and culture problem adding to the situation .
Jona
God is Love and the spirit is not male or female, Jew or Greek, neither is the maker's house a piece of land, but a peace of heart.
Thanks for the clarification , I thought He was somewhat like Barney Miller , what are you talking about ?
Jona
Have you ever tried reading books or stories that present these issues and events from a Palestinian"s experience?
Conservative read a book ? Ok I will try that . Can I have a intellectual exchange after I do that from you . Perhaps you could start by accepting the fact I am from NJ , I forget much of what happened in the 70s , and I have an opinion that is equal to yours . You may be right , but besides the fact you are convinced of your spirtual and Middle East superior positions , you have not given me any reasons why I could tell another you have those blessings accept your opinion of yourself .
Posted by: Mick | January 15, 2008 4:25 PM
If you need to belive Israel is evil, all wrong, perhaps your right. My one sided view tends to believe their is a religious, historial, and culture problem adding to the situation.
That's not what jonabark said. What he/she is saying is, "Why would someone who understands personally what it's like to be bullied then do the same to others?" And I understand that.
Posted by: Rick Nowlin | January 15, 2008 4:44 PM
That's not what jonabark said. What he/she is saying is, "Why would someone who understands personally what it's like to be bullied then do the same to others?" And I understand that.
Posted by: Rick Nowlin
And what he was saying I was saying was not ven close , but stereotypicaL RHETORIC .
Does that mean you do not do that Rick WHEN YOU BULLIED ? Sometimes , when you are bullied ? I know I do , and you
And and I know the Living God .
Posted by: mick | January 15, 2008 5:11 PM
And I understand that.
Posted by: Rick Nowlin
P.S Rick , Then you understand that it goes both ways ? That is what I was saying .
Both sides "feel" bullied . The peace process will not go forward till the shooting stops , "both" sides feel safe . The renegade terrorist organizations appear to be the problem from stopping the peace to move forward .
Do you agree with that ?
Posted by: Mick | January 15, 2008 5:31 PM
Has anyone who posts on here been in Israel, and spent time in areas of Israel controlled by Palestinians? Can you talk about that?
I would also like to hear from people who may not have been to Israel but have talked personally with Palestinians. I'll share one story: a Palestinian friend who now lives in California tells of the house that had been in his family since the 17th century. In 1948, BEFORE war broke out between Israel and the Arab states, the family was forced to leave by the Israeli government.
He tells me that is a common story. Have others heard similar?
Posted by: carl copas | January 15, 2008 5:35 PM
Both sides "feel" bullied. The peace process will not go forward till the shooting stops, "both" sides feel safe. The renegade terrorist organizations appear to be the problem from stopping the peace to move forward.
There's a difference. The Palestinians see the real bully as the United States and much of the rest of the West, which they feel foisted the Jewish people on them to deal with their own "Jewish problem." Let's keep in mind that many, many more Palestinians than Israelis have died in this conflict.
Posted by: Rick Nowlin | January 15, 2008 7:38 PM
Let's keep in mind that many, many more Palestinians than Israelis have died in this conflict.
Posted by: Rick Nowlin
Well yes , but what would you suggest is the solution . Concessions first by Israel hoping the independent terrorists aspect of the equation just stop shooting ? Or are you advocating surrender land that was taken in previous confrontations just be given back regardless ?
Am I wrong to say Israel would give back those terrorities if they knew peace and their borders would be respected ?
Posted by: Mick | January 15, 2008 8:40 PM
This is a problem with no solution.
I am not sure it is the shooting that needs to stop--although that would be nice. It is going to take MANY parties who are willing to lay down their grievances and problems for the sake of fulfilling a just future.
This is a wonderful part of the world to visit--with multitudes of opportunities to directly connect with sll parties. (Just find something more interesting than a standard tour). It needs the world to solve its problems and yet can be engaged postitively by any individual
Posted by: letjusticerolldown | January 15, 2008 8:56 PM
"There's a difference. The Palestinians see the real bully as the United States and much of the rest of the West"
Rick you know as well as I that their is a history of Middle East Countries just terroizing other Middle East Countries and denying basic Human rights to their own people . 2 Million Black Christians have been said to be killed in the Sudan . That has nothing to do with the west . Many of these regimes and Terrorist Cults need little reason to kill their fellow citizens, Blaming America gets to be a cliche that does nothing , and it does not justify terrorism .
I thought Israel was a friend of the United States , I did not know it was based in just this Zionism I have been reading about here . Because its not . I would love to go to Israel , maybe just to think I possibly could have walked where our Lord walked . That does not make me want to accept every wrong doing Israel does , but it does not make me want to condemn them either .
This Israel right or wrong concept is bogus I agree , but this seems to be taking it to the other extreme ,
I will not justify terrorism . Perhaps learning what motivate it does help . But you do realize also Middle East newspapers , which are available on line , and even their schools teach and write that Jews subscribe to racial superiority . That Judaism and Christianity are deviant religions .
Also presently the only Palenstinians with the right to vote live in Israel . The only Palenstinians who can serve in an elecetd government live in Israel . The only Palentinians who live in countries where there is freedom of religion is Israel . This does not mean Israel is right , the same way because we have an elected government we are always right , but I wish the other countries in that region were at least moving in that direction .
Posted by: Mick | January 15, 2008 10:23 PM
Mick
I mixed addressing you and addressing what I hear as a common conservative position and it was awkward and unclear. I will try to be more direct. I do not mean to lump you with ideas you don't share and apologize for pointing my thoughts too much towards you.
Lebanon has freedom of religion. I have been hearing about the demonic nature of Islam from many Christians for years, so Islamic countries aren't the only ones that indulge in this kind of thing. I have also heard some pretty awful racism from Jews.
It is true that Islam does not favor democratic process. There were autocracies in Christian Europe and Rome for centuries.
Posted by: jonabark | January 15, 2008 11:34 PM
I thought Israel was a friend of the United States, I did not know it was based in just this Zionism I have been reading about here.
A lot of it is based on dispensational theology, some of whose adherents have a pretty big megaphone in this country.
Posted by: Rick Nowlin | January 16, 2008 12:52 AM
Thank you Jona for making it clearer and understanding the lumping in that offended me .
And Rick , honestly I will have to that up . but even many on the left share the belief Israel is a friend also , just as Great Britain is considered a friend . We can always use more friends , but we also need to at least respect the friends we already have too .
Posted by: mick | January 16, 2008 6:16 AM
And Rick, honestly I will have to that up. but even many on the left share the belief Israel is a friend also, just as Great Britain is considered a friend. We can always use more friends, but we also need to at least respect the friends we already have too.
Real friends challenge you to do what's right in the eyes of everyone, just as Paul says.
Posted by: Rick Nowlin | January 16, 2008 10:53 AM
"And, while Israel's rockets and war planes may be viewed as terrorist weapons, they hardly compare to the bombs strapped to mortals that walk into restaurants and banks"
That's true. Israel's rockets and war planes have killed more civilians, often in indiscriminate attacks. You can read detailed investigations of what happened in Lebanon in 2006 at the Human Rights Watch website if you choose.
Not that this justifies Arab terrorism. But it's weird how people seem to think there's a civilized way to blow people up.
Posted by: Donald | January 16, 2008 12:12 PM
No "nation" can be considered a "friend," for the alliances of convenience involved in "the great game" all depend upon changing interests and balances of power as the leadership of each nation seeks economic and political advantage.
If you look at the arc of history, you see yesterday's ally is today's enemy, today's enemy tomorrow's ally.
It's safe to say that unless stirred up by their particular leaderships, most of the masses of people in any geographic location aren't enemies or even give one another much thought.
The more individuals in any population have personal contact with each other from elsewhere, the harder it is for political and economic leaders to spread false propaganda in pursuit of gaining support for their selfish interests.
We as Christians should be wise as serpents in regards to these continuing cycles, that are fuelled by those stirring up remembrance of past grievances in service of sacrificing others to violence in support of their aims.
In being harmless as doves, we are not passive, but to actively fly in the olive branch of peace to our fellow humanity.
Posted by: Sojourner Truth | January 16, 2008 12:18 PM
Not that this justifies Arab terrorism. But it's weird how people seem to think there's a civilized way to blow people up.
Posted by: Donald
In the American Civil War a Confederate General would not allow his men to use land mines .
Weird or what .
Posted by: Mick | January 16, 2008 2:57 PM
Real friends challenge you to do what's right in the eyes of everyone, just as Paul says.
Posted by: Rick Nowlin
And I thought we did that ? In fact we have .
Posted by: Mick | January 16, 2008 2:59 PM
Sorry about the follow post, But an example is 2006 when Hamas attacked Isreal , shot missles within their borders , took two guys . Isreale came back and went bonkers ,
Bush and other folks pressured Isreal publically and privately to cool their jets becaue they retaliated causing much damage and lost of innocent life .
Also
dispentional theology ,that I have seen . Sermons supporting and not . People and emails also . I did not realize it was so hotly viewed from outside the church .
The Old Testament is a also a great history showing people in the nation of Israel screwing up . I never viewed Israel as holier then thou , just a people that shared somewhat of our own culture based in our religion, and I thought a friend of the United States .
Posted by: Mick | January 16, 2008 3:15 PM
Sorry about the follow post, But an example is 2006 when Hamas attacked Isreal, shot missles within their borders, took two guys. Isreale came back and went bonkers,...
You should know that Hamas originally was aided and abetted by the Israeli intelligence service Shin Bet as a counterweight to Yassir Arafat.
Posted by: Rick Nowlin | January 16, 2008 4:08 PM
I am a premillennialist, but I heartily share Nathan's conclusions. Blind Zionism is bad theology.
Posted by: J. Ferdinand Gonzalez | January 16, 2008 4:27 PM
Sr. Gonzalez:
Thanks for pointing out that premillennialism and dispensationalism are not synonymous. Many early Church fathers (e.g., Irenaeus, Justin, Tertullian) were premillennial, though many also were not. But dispensationalism, from which "Christian Zionism" derives, did not exist before the 1830s.
BTW, I'm not premillennial myself--I'm more of an amillennialist. But I don't quarrel with historical premillennialism [at least not too much :-)], just dispensationalism.
You should know that Hamas originally was aided and abetted by the Israeli intelligence service Shin Bet as a counterweight to Yassir Arafat.
Wow, this sounds tragically familiar! Israel creates its own enemies, just like the US has done (e.g., Saddam Hussein).
Peace,
Posted by: Don | January 16, 2008 5:14 PM
"You should know that Hamas originally was aided and abetted by the Israeli intelligence service Shin Bet as a counterweight to Yassir Arafat."
Wow Rick , while the rest of us were reading Spider Man I gather you were reading Enclopedia ?
Your the George Will of the left , , ehh very left though . ;0)
Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, established in 1946 in Gaza. The Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood was a quiescent force whose main goal was a reorientation of Palestinian society to religion. The Brotherhood had relatitvely little to do with the fight against Israel or later in opposition to the occupation, though individual members were active in arms smuggling during the Israeli War of Independence. However, one group initiated by former members of the brotherhood, Hizb ut Tahrir, formed in the West Bank, later evolved into an international Islamist organization.
After 1967, the main front organization of the brotherhood was Ahmad Yassin 's Mujama‘ (established 1973), a welfare charity (clinics, kindergartens, education), that was encouraged by Israeli civilian administration in Gaza to apply for registered charity status in 1978 and was indirectly funded by Israel as a means of dividing Palestinian society. It collected funds from from local zakat collections, Gulf Islamic organizations (often via Jordan), and expatriate Palestinians.
Posted by: Mick | January 16, 2008 6:24 PM
Mick -- You ignored what I just said.
Posted by: Rick Nowlin | January 16, 2008 7:55 PM
Rick I thought I actually found information that substantiated what you stated , and complimented you on your knowledge . This is from the clip from the Enclopedia ? Shows Israel supporting Hamas in the begiinings .
After 1967, the main front organization of the brotherhood was Ahmad Yassin 's Mujama‘ (established 1973), a welfare charity (clinics, kindergartens, education), that was encouraged by Israeli civilian administration in Gaza to apply for registered charity status in 1978 and was indirectly funded by Israel as a means of dividing Palestinian society
Posted by: Mick | January 16, 2008 8:15 PM
Jesus did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill the law. Every word of the Old Testament remains. We must not listen to a man's interpretation of the Word, but to the Holy Spirit for revelation. Be very careful.
Posted by: Elizabeth | January 16, 2008 9:11 PM
Mick -- I stand corrected.
Posted by: Rick Nowlin | January 16, 2008 9:13 PM
Jesus did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill the law. Every word of the Old Testament remains. We must not listen to a man's interpretation of the Word...
What about Jesus' own interpretation of the Old Testament? What about Paul's? Didn't Paul write under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? Pastor Nathan is only pointing out how Paul interpreted the promises.
Popularized interpretations of OT "prophecy" have basically ignored Paul and his divinely inspired perspective. Jesus surely did fulfill the Law, in all ways. Therefore, we must interpret the Old Testament in light of the New. In this we must indeed be careful.
Peace,
Posted by: Don | January 16, 2008 10:00 PM
Some thoughts from an interview addressing the issue of Israel as a democracy and Muslim/Christian relations. Here is a glimpse of a Christian offering a very different mode of how to move toward justice understanding and respect than the klutzy good guys vs, bad guys idea.
By Matthew Davies
ENS102505-04
Tuesday, October 25, 2005
[Episcopal News Service] The Rt. Rev. Riah Abu El-Assal is the Anglican Bishop in Jerusalem, a diocese that includes Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine and Syria within the Province of Jerusalem and the Middle East. In an interview with Episcopal News Service, El-Assal speaks about the church's role in justice and reconciliation and his hopes for peace in the Holy Land.
ENS: Israel claims to be a democracy. In your opinion, is this a fair assessment?
EL-ASSAL: The claim is one thing, the reality is another thing. There are all sorts of proof that shows it can't be a democracy. Being Jewish and being democratic is not possible. It is like an Islamic state. It can't be an Islamic state and a democracy at the same time. Over the last 50 years Israel has exercised all sorts of discrimination against the Arabs. If you visit an Arab village and a Jewish village or settlement or city, you can tell the difference. When it comes to budgets, what is given to the Arab towns or cities is far less than what is given to the Jewish cities.
ENS: How important is education for the Palestinian people?
EL-ASSAL: In my ministry over the last 40 years I have endeavored to promote education, to educate people in life and dignity. I also helped initiate and establish educational institutions, like the high school in Nazareth. Now we are busy working on a kindergarten in Shafar Amr. I have helped establish a high school in Jordan and a number of kindergartens here and there because I believe that education does help people to see life in a different way and help people also to become independent in their decisions that count for a different style of living. So I helped add to the number of educational institutions in the Diocese of Jerusalem and now the number of institutions is about 37, most of those have to do with education. I am keen to see that every child is subsidized if they do not have the means.
ENS: Muslim/Christian relations appear quite healthy. Is there an inclination to evangelize?
EL-ASSAL: In our schools, we do not serve only the Christians. We serve the Muslims as well. In our school in Jerusalem, 90 percent are Muslims and in Nazareth 65 percent are Muslims. The relationship between us and them is a cordial one and credit goes to those who started those schools a hundred years ago and who paved the way for a better understanding of the other. Those Muslims who graduated from our schools have a great respect to the church and they know that when we welcomed them and admitted them to our schools the intention was not to evangelize them. We share our faith; we don't impose our faith on people. When we share our faith the intention is to share Jesus Christ the way we've seen him.
Posted by: jonabark | January 16, 2008 11:28 PM
There is a group of Arab Christians that publish www (dot) comeandsee (dot) com -- "The Christian Website from Nazareth". There are links there to other local Christian ministries--including the Bethlehem Bible College.
Posted by: letjusticerolldown | January 17, 2008 1:54 AM
" I thought it was quite balanced, actually. Not many who argue that the New Testament doesn't support the notion of a biblically mandated nation-state for the Jews demand at the same time that justice itself demands a homeland for the Jews in the Middle East.
A balanced Middle East foreign policy demands that we weigh this need for a Jewish homeland with the legitimate concerns of the Palestinians. One-sidedness rests not with Pastor Nathan but with those on both extremes of the Israel-Palestine question.
Peace,
Posted by: Don | January 14, 2008 3:37 PM"
this article is so good, i'm going to put a link to it on my blog!
Posted by: Jordan Lester | January 17, 2008 8:20 AM
Funny thing to me, he never exegetes the biblical passages in light of other portions of Scripture such as Daniel or Revelation.
But the worst part about this sermon is that Pastor Nathan fails to call all men to repentance (Acts 17:30) and shows that the only way to secure eternal life in heaven is through Jesus Christ (John 14:6). He calls for compassion for Jews and non-Jews in Israel but the greatest cry should be for evangelism of the nations including Israel, the United States, and all Muslim nations. Without being perfect in word, thought, or deed then no one will enter into God's holy presence (Romans 3:19-20; 7:7,14; 1 Timothy 1:8-11) which is why we need Jesus Christ (Romans 3:21-28; 5:1-11; 8:1-4; Galatians 3:13-18, 22-29; Ephesians 1:3-14; Philippians 3:8-10; Colossians 1:15-20; 1 Timothy 2:1-6; 2 Timothy 1:15).
Posted by: Roy | January 17, 2008 3:38 PM
While Pastor Nathan (I know some folks who attend his church) made some good points, I feel that he overlooked a significant NT passage, Acts 1: 6-7, in which the disciples ask the Risen Jesus, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" Vs. 7, "And He said to them, 'It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority." Now, I realize that to argue from silence (on what was NOT said) can be dangerous, but I tend to think that if it was never in God's purpose to restore Israel as a nation, Jesus would have said something like, "No, God is finished with Israel as a nation. Now there's a completely different plan." But Jesus said nothing of the kind. He said that it was not for the disciples to be concerned about the restoration of Israel, but He never said that it wouldn't happen at some point. In our day, we have seen it happen! But
Israel has been regathered in unbelief. That,
however, will not last, since Romans 11:26 promises that "all Israel shall be saved" -- and
the foregoing chapters make it clear that Paul is
talking about a physical nation, not a spiritual
one. How and when will all Israel be saved? Those are matters of speculation, but Scripture
guarantees that it will happen.
Posted by: John G. | January 17, 2008 4:52 PM
While Pastor Nathan (I know some folks who attend his church) made some good points, I feel that he overlooked a significant NT passage, Acts 1: 6-7...
John, this is a very thoughtful comment. I think it deserves some kind of answer. I probably don't have all the facts at hand that perhaps I need to give you a really good answer, but I'll try.
At first thought, it's logical to think that Jesus would have and/or should have made some kind of comment regarding the future of Israel at this point in Acts 1. Possibly the reason he didn't is because he had been teaching for the last three years about the true nature of the Kingdom of God and just didn't think it was necessary to say any more. I'm thinking, for example, of things like the words he said to Pilate: "My Kingdom is not of this world. If it were, then I would have my servants fight for it" (my paraphrase). And when on the Mount of Olives Jesus said the Temple in Jerusalem would be destroyed and the disciples in response asked when that would happen (Matthew 24; see also the parallel account in Luke 21), Jesus' response included not only a prediction of the Temple's destruction (which happened in AD 70), but he also talked about the end of the age and his eventual return. The Christian church for many years considered the Temple's destruction as a sign that God was indeed finished with Israel as a nation. Logically, his purposes for Israel were completed when Christ ascended to heaven. The nation had produced the promised Messiah, who had, through his death and resurrection, become the blessing to all nations that God had promised to Abraham.
And also, not all commentators and scholars think that Romans 9-11 refers to a physical nation, so your comment that it is clearly so taught isn't quite accurate. For example, some believe that Paul saying that the "Israel" that would all be saved are those chosen from among the Israelite nation--that is, to use Calvinistic terminology, the elect (or the remnant) from within the nation--not necessarily the nation as a whole. It is possible to see that this happened not long after Paul wrote those words--before the Temple's destruction, in other words. It's also possible to see that this will occur as a final gathering in of Jewish elect before the final end of the age, which is what many Protestant Christians believed in the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries (e.g., Johnathan Edwards). Neither of these interpretations require a reconstituted Jewish nation for their fulfillment.
I don't know if this helps, but I hope it does illustrate that this is a complex issue and that not one single interpretation is possible. Perhaps none of our interpretations will prove in the end to be correct--after all, none of the scribes' interpretations of the OT messianic prophecies were correct.
Peace,
Posted by: Don | January 17, 2008 9:19 PM
I find it somewhat odd that to a large degree I find myself agreeing with the conclusions of Nathan about current conditions, even though I disagree with his amillennial replacement thelolgy. One thing I did find offensive was his characterization of those of us with pre-millennial theology as ones who advocate "Israel can do no wrong- mindless support of Israel no matter what they do.The Arabs are nothing." That is a strawman.
Posted by: Lee J. Smith | January 17, 2008 9:34 PM
Lee J Smith:
It appears that YOU are setting up the straw man, Lee. As I mentioned in an earlier post, premillennialism and dispensationalism/Christian Zionism are not synonymous. One can be premillennial and still believe in what you call "replacement" theology. Historically, many have held that position (and I named some from early church history in my earlier post).
To tag Nathan as amillennial is unwarranted, because he says nothing one way or the other about his millennial beliefs. And you make ammillennialism itself sound like a suspect position.
Peace,
Posted by: Don | January 18, 2008 6:23 AM
When Christ preached, why do you think there were those who rejected him?
The prophecies were correct- man's interpretation was not. And they hated Him for it.
And here we go again...
Ecclesiastes 1:4-9
One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever. The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose. The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits. All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again. All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing. The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Elizabeth Daniele
author of "Proof of God"
Posted by: Elizabeth Daniele | January 18, 2008 12:14 PM
With regard to John's point about Acts 1.6-7, the text reads, as you quote "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?". But later you write - " He said that it was not for the disciples to be concerned about the restoration of Israel". "Restore the Kingdom to Israel" has become "the restoration of Israel". According to Jesus it's the kingdom that will be restored to Isreal, not Israel itself - which still existed then anyway. This restoration of the kingdom to Israel relates back to those times when Jesus spoke of the kingdom being taken from those who thought they had a right to it and it be given to others,eg Matthew 8.11-12.
So what does Jesus mean by restoring the kingdom to Israel? If it's taken away because of unbelief, it is restored to those who believe. It'll be restored to Israel, and all Israel saved, when all Israel believes in Jesus. That I understand to be the thrust of Paul's teaching in Romans 9-11 as well. There is nothing here about an earthly country. The Kingdom of God is within you, said Jesus.The disciples were well aware of that teaching when they asked the question. They were wondering when Israel was going to repent and believe in the one they had so recently rejected . Let us then continue to pray for the salvation of all Jewish people, as well as all Palestinians, seeking, and supporting justice and mercy for all.
Posted by: eric macarthur | January 29, 2008 5:37 PM
Pastor Rich Nathan's describing of Zionism as a national political movement eager to get control of all the ME as promised to Abraham is false suggestion. Never Jews said or dreamed to create Israel between the two rivers – Nile and Euphrates. Jews dreamed and prayed for the holly land and not for the "holly Middle East". Jews acted through their political national revival movement, Zionism, to gain back control on some portion of land of Israel land and creating a national home for the Jewish people' which they deprived for two millennia by gentiles. The much they dreamed is to build their home in both banks of the Jordan River – the west bank from the river to the sea shore and the east bank from the river to Moab Mountains, in the near reached mountains. Any way, the Jews always agreed for compromise with the local Arab conquers of their biblical land. The side that always pushed away any political solution and acceptance of the other was the Arabs.
Jews always lived in Israel land through the last 5000 years. The very factor that always has been changed was the identity of the foreign occupier. Arabs first occupied the land in the 7th century in the midst of their struggle to Islamize the inhabitants of the "old" world. Since than, many other nations conquered the land. But Jews communities still survived the occupiers. The only time Jews didn't sit in Jerusalem and other part of the land was in the 11th century. Why? Because Christian crusaders conquered the land and slaughtered Muslims and Jews. Many Jews and Muslims scatted to the land's fridge and rescued.
The great number of now days Arab in Israel land, are new out comers who came after the Jews widened their exodus to Israel, in the end of the 19th century. Those Arabs left their national land and came to Israel land for food and jobs, as they do today in Europe and northern America. They didn't want to search their belief or soil in Israel land. Why those Arab immigrants now entitled to share the national assets of the Jews? Why can't Arabs demand the same from Europe or the US? Is it only a factor of the length of their occupation and existence in the spot?
What do you mean by saying "Palestine" and "Palestinian". Did Jesus call his homeland "Palestine"? The Romans did. Wake up dear believers, you play to the hands of the Romans that crucified the Lord and blame the Jews. It's a typical tactic of Anti Semite. And I persuade to think that you don't, so be aware of the hole you are reaching near.
Palestine is the name given by the non believers in Christ in order to erase any reminiscence of the Jews, the holly land, Jesus and pure belief. Why do you take part in that scum? You have to remember that at that time Arab didn't live in the land of Israel and the vicinity. Only Arab merchants came and went for their business.
As an anecdote I use to tell my audience about the source of the world "Palestine" let me tell you that there is no "P" in Arabic at all! How could a "people" calling