A New Baptist Unity for Social Justice (by Adam Taylor)
At last week's New Baptist Unity Conference in Atlanta, an estimated 20,000 Baptists spanning the moderate to progressive spectrum gathered for three days of worship, fellowship, and training. Even though Southern Baptists were conspicuously missing, the conference united members of denominations from the American Baptist Convention, Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, National Baptist Convention USA, and the Progressive National Baptist Convention, among others, to collectively represent over 17 million U.S. Christians.
As the core convener and patron of the event, the longstanding Baptist Bible study leader and former President Jimmy Carter opened the conference with a challenge that strikes at the heart of division within the Baptist and Christian church at large. Carter named the wedge issues that have fragmented the church - from the ordination of women to homosexuality, abortion, capital punishment, etc. - and then asked the participants whether a shared belief in the saving grace of God through Jesus Christ and a commitment to spreading the gospel was more important than all these divisions combined. Carter compared these divisions to the ones that Paul addressed in his letters to the early church in Corinth. According to Carter, "these animosities have become a cancer that is metastasizing in the body of Christ."
The conference provided ample testimony to the ways in which Baptists are uniting across theology, ideology, geography, and race. It placed a particular emphasis on the themes of diversity, good news to the poor, and welcoming the stranger. Speakers included Rev.Tony Campolo, Marian Wright Edelman, Dr. William Shaw, Senator Charles Grassley, and Bill Clinton. While many in the media and conservative circles cynically accused the conference as an attempt to baptize the Democratic Party, the event upheld a staunch commitment to nonpartisanship and offered a prophetic challenge to both Democrats and Republicans. As an associate minister at a church that's a member of both the American Baptist Church and the Progressive National Baptist Convention, I straddle the historic black and predominantly white Baptist worlds. It was significant that this gathering took place in the seat of the South and demonstrated a genuine commitment to uniting across the racial divide. An entire worship service focused on the theme of welcoming the stranger and dealt head-on with the polemical issue of immigration - emphasizing the need for a biblically-based response characterized by compassion, mercy, and justice.
Historically, Baptists have been reluctant to engage in politics, due in part to an abiding belief in the separation between church and state. It was a Baptist minister that played an instrumental role in convincing the founding fathers that this separation represented the best way to protect religion from the interference of the state and the best way to safeguard the state from the interference of religion. Throughout the plenary sessions and workshops, I sensed a growing recognition that this separation should not lead to a fast from politics. Baptists' voices are expressing a growing desire to address the great moral issues of our time, including poverty, climate change, religious freedom, and HIV/AIDS. While real disagreements still exist, particularly around the differences between charity and justice or systemic change and personal transformation, momentum is growing favoring deeper and broader political engagement. Perhaps one of the greatest and most hopeful signs of this nascent tidal wave was on display at a luncheon featuring former Vice President Al Gore. In contrast to the Southern Baptists, who spurned Gore's advocacy to open eyes around the intensifying crisis of global warming, thousands of conference participants gave a rousing standing ovation to his now famous hour-long Power Point presentation, as Baptist leaders listened to ways in which we have shown contempt for God's creation.
The conference recognized the difficulties that lie ahead in sustaining this movement. Organizers seem committed to avoiding the creation of a new organization or reinventing the wheel. I have been struck by the degree to which Baptist denominations lack a substantial staff presence in Washington, D.C., working to influence public policy and advocate around Baptist concerns. While most mainline churches have full-time policy staff and Washington-based offices, Baptists are often under-represented. This is not to equate a presence in Washington with policy change, yet a more mobilized constituency of 17 million Baptists would have a profound degree of influence. One concrete outcome of this New Covenant Baptist movement would be to combine efforts and resources across these Baptist denominations to establish a joint advocacy presence to better represent the voices of progressive and moderate Baptists across the country. A Baptist constituency united around shared biblical values and a focused agenda on common ground issues like ending poverty would represent good news for the church and our nation.
Adam Taylor is director of campaigns and organizing for Sojourners.
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Comments
The NBC may not have been partisan, but it was definitely liberal.
Posted by: Ben Wheaton | February 6, 2008 1:14 PM
Wow! What a lineup of speakers. This is encouraging, Adam. Thanks for sharing.
Now, what bothers me is that there was only one historically white denomination listed: the American Baptist Association. The absence of the SBC was noted. I guess it is just too much to expect the General Association of Regular Baptists (GARB) or the Conservative Baptists or any of the many other white Baptist denominations to participate. Yet if it were a conference on abortion or protecting your family from homosexuals, I'll bet all those groups would be there regardless fo what Roger Williams said about church-state separation.
But all that aside, this is still encouraging. I hope to see more such unity among denominations of other traditions.
Posted by: I and I | February 6, 2008 1:42 PM
I and I ,
May it was the list of speakers that kept them away ? Bill Clinton ? Jimmy Carter ? Al Gore at lunch Maybe people you admire , and people I would love to meet , and even I admit would love to shake their hands . But for spirtual wisdom and guidance ? Al Gore compared conservative Christians to people with an extra chromosome . Not exactly someone I would listen to on spirtual matters .
Sorry .. Nope
If the speakers were James Dobson , Cal Thomas , Tony Compolla , Jim Walliss and mixed in like that and dedicated to a united mission for the church in this century , I would travel to see that conference .
Posted by: Mick | February 6, 2008 2:03 PM
Interesting. I am impressed but at the same time skeptical. I don't associate baptists w/ grace, well maybe American baptists but southern baptists, not so much. I will wait to see if all the baptists can get together and actually talk.
p
Posted by: Payshun | February 6, 2008 2:13 PM
"Maybe it was the list of speakers that kept (white Baptists) away? If the speakers were James Dobson, Cal Thomas, Tony Compolla, Jim Wallis and mixed in like that and dedicated to a united mission for the church in this century , I would travel to see that conference."
Mick, point well taken. But if white Baptists are so averse to the speaker lineup as it was, I don't know that they would put up with Tony and Jim being added to a conservative lineup, either. My point was that somehow this divided along color lines, not theological liberal/conservative lines. Most of those black Baptist denominations are theologically conservative.
Posted by: I and I | February 6, 2008 3:21 PM
This is an excerpt from an article on the Dombroski’s The Lighthouse Trails on-line newsletter that also discussed this recent convention. I always find it interesting (to say the least) to read their take on such major movement and activity among protestant groups.
The Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Baptist body in existence, is not part of the New Baptist Covenant. A statement on the NBC website explains why: While a number of the leaders in the New Baptist Covenant are members of Southern Baptist Churches, and individual Southern Baptists and Southern Baptist congregations are expected to participate in the Celebration, the SBC's leadership has to date not been involved in this initiative. The organizations represented in the New Baptist Covenant are members of the North American Baptist Fellowship, an affiliate of the Baptist World Alliance. The Southern Baptist Convention withdrew from membership in the North American Baptist Fellowship and the Baptist World Alliance in 2004. In addition to Al Gore and Tony Campolo, both advocates of eastern mysticism, some of the "Presenters" at the conference are also proponents of mystical meditation: MOPS (Mothers of Preschoolers), The Alban Institute, and The Upper Room. While this article will not attempt to determine whether there are political motives behind this newly formed organization that includes at least three major political personalities, one thing can be stated with surety: The New Baptist Covenant has the potential of being another avenue through which mystical spirituality will enter the lives of millions of people and thus take them further away from the Gospel message of Jesus Christ.
Posted by: Doug | February 6, 2008 3:40 PM
Doug ,
Tony Campola is into Eastern Mysticism ? I recall this blog having something he wrote on how he used it to clear his mind in the morning somewhat , but he focused on Christ .
I hope he is not going that way . TBN sure has its share of name it and claim it . People selling holy water and cloth to get healed .
These are exciting times , but sad times also .
Posted by: Mick | February 6, 2008 4:05 PM
I and I ,
I really have no problem at all with what Jim Wallis promotes , its his politics that I disagree with most of the times . And I think he is making the same mistakes that the religious right leadership did, ever read Blinded by Might Same with Tony , except if what Doug just shared has merit I would be concerned about embracing mysticism .
I do not know much about the Baptist and their divides , racial or otherwise . In my area they are basically conservative minded with regards to the scriptures , Meaning more of take it literally . A ferry ride away in Seattle , most of the Baptist churches are quite liberal in regards to the scriptures .
Basically I have learned not to say once saved always saved is false theology when I hang out with those guys . ;o)
Posted by: Mick | February 6, 2008 4:15 PM
Jimmy Carter continues to speak substantive and heartfelt truth into the body politic and the body of faith from which he grew.
Doug. How is mystical spirituality not essential to Jesus message? Mystical spirituality simply means union with the divine, union with God, immersion in the holy spirit. Some may prefer union with priests, or union with Republicanism, or union with their nation, or union with the doctrines of Paul the Pharisee, or union with Episcopal liturgy or union with James Dobson or perhaps with their favorite TV programs. Some like immersion in beer or money or power politics. The wonderful thing about Jesus is that the simple essence of his teaching is that anyone who approaches God humbly and with faith , and fearlessly as to a loving Parent will find a freedom and joy that cannot be controlled or bought or sold or taken away because it is the free redemptive love of God. Jesus never taught people to pray to him or any intermediary but to God. His ministry was one of the open table, the shared bread of life, healing and inclusive love. He never used his hands to damage anything but the moneychangers table. He used his hands instead to heal and embrace the weak and despised.
Some prefer patriarchy , some fear of hell, some prefer the letter of the law, but followers of Jesus prefer the mystical spirituality that gently unites them with the love of God.
Posted by: Jonabark | February 6, 2008 4:19 PM
Jonabark: "Some may prefer union with priests, or union with Republicanism, or union with their nation, or union with the doctrines of Paul the Pharisee, or union with Episcopal liturgy or union with James Dobson or perhaps with their favorite TV programs. Some like immersion in beer or money or power politics."
Occasionally, I rather like union with my wife.
Posted by: bud duncan | February 6, 2008 4:26 PM
Folks like Jim Dobson, as a matter of their own personal political philosophy, have a policy to never appear with or give platform on their programs, to any other than fellow travelers on their own private dining car.
Like certain of his political idols, Jim Dobson does not believe in talking with those he's demonized.
He has elevated himself to such a position in his own mind and surrounded himself with sycophants among all the trappings of self-aggrandizement - his picture adorns countless walls and genuflections by tour guides at Focus on the Family world headquarters in Colorado Springs - that he sees himself as without peer as a peevish Republican kingmaker.
So blaming the hosts of the party because someone wouldn't RSVP their invitation is hardly just.
I'm reminded of how Jesus opened up the banquet for the wedding of the bride to all those considered beneath the
prominent, when they wouldn't deign to attend.
I wouldn't be afraid to engage anyone, myself. I'm not so threatened by the existence of opinions that diverge from my own understanding, a work in progress - like the apostle I can only see through a glass darkly - that I have to identify those in other political parties or denominations as Devils of Darkness to be exorcised from my presence. After all, we struggle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers in the spiritual realm.
Didn't the Lord himself invite, "Come let us reason together?"
Former Republican leader, Dick Armey (himself a Christian) characterized his onetime ally Jim Dobson's political hardball practices as thuggish. "Nasty bullies," was the evaluation of Dobson's "gang" by the #2 Republican who saved homeschooling in the House in the early nineties when First Lady Hillary and California Democrat George Miller tried to criminalize it, and whom Dobson praised fulsomely at the time.
Posted by: Sojourner Truth | February 6, 2008 4:26 PM
Lighthouse Trails is pretty extreme. Don't get alarmed if they say Tony is into mysticism. They attack Rick Warren too for that, and many other mainstream spiritual leaders. Take a look at their website and you'll catch what I mean right away. They are on a witch hunt, to say the least.
Posted by: I and I | February 6, 2008 6:09 PM
As one who was actually at the gathering, let me say that it was a very encouraging time of unity and reconciliation. The preaching was great (you can watch the main speeches here: www.newbaptistcelebration.org). It was not a partisan event (there were Republican speakers), nor was it all liberals or moderates as many conservatives were there including Southern Baptists. I hope the messages from this historic gathering will continue to ripple through Baptist life.
Posted by: Kaylor | February 6, 2008 6:23 PM
I find some of the nonsense in these comments hard to stomach. I would say up front that I had absolutely no part, in any way, shape, or form, in the organization of the NBC Celebration, but I did attend the entire meeting as a simple member of Providence Baptist Church in Hendersonbille, NC. I know that they had asked some Republican Baptists who did not choose to come (but so did Democrat Bill Moyers). To call it "liberal" is to try to stop discussion with a scare word. It had to be one of the most open and affirming Baptist meetings I ever experienced. If taking what Jesus said in Luke 4:18-19 and Matthew 25:31-46 is "liberal," then conservatives are more spiritually and morally bankrupt than I could have thought. I have never experienced a Baptist meeting where African-Americans occupied so many places of leadership and played prominent roles in the program and whites and blacks fellowshipped with one another as brothers and sisters in Christ. It was an extraordinary event and we hope it will have a far-reaching impact in bringing Baptists together. Don't look for the "hidden agenda." It was not there, except in the minds of the media and Southern Baptist honchos who excluded themselves from the experience because they weren't in charge of it.
Posted by: Richard Pierard | February 6, 2008 6:35 PM
I and I
I know more about Rick Warren , and if that is true it sounds bogus to me also . But you just had a few psoters defend mysticism .
The problem with it is it is a process that is not limited to religion . In other words , the experience is not neccessarily because of your relationship with Christ . I will allow you investigate it yourself , but where I find a problem with it is that the experience you have , may not be from a spirtual connection with our Lord . The very process is used by other people , and sometimes people who profess no religion of God and it results in a physical and mental eurphoria , in a way self induced .
Transcendent experiences may happen to anyone, regardless of religious training or a belief in any religion at all .
I do not wish to insult or hinder anyones Faith . As A Christian I would warn against it to other Christians , because one who shares our Faith that uses this may reach a conclusion that the Eurphoria is Christ given . I see a danger there . I saw that Tony wrote about it and it was on this blog .
My concern would be the same for someone like myself , sometimes when I am worshipping God , sometimes I get very emotional myself and the experience is quite ALL consuming . It takes some spirtual discernment on my part to know which is the Holy Spirit and which mayjust be me .
I have to make sure it is aligned with the word of God . I believe sometimes this is how good people of Faith have gone off on tangents and gotten into some weird stuff .
Mean no dis respect if you are involved in this , but I would warn against it for those who have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior .
I know we all enjoy the Savior part , the Lord part is what I am always working on .
Posted by: Mick | February 6, 2008 6:38 PM
Richard Pierard,
it's all too unusual for someone on this blog to comment on a topic with which he/she actually has had some first-hand, personal experience.
Thanks.
Posted by: carl copas | February 6, 2008 6:40 PM
Some have said that Southern Baptists like to keep the Holy Spirit at arm's length - safely confined within the pages of the Bible!
Anything jumping out of those pages - is for another dispensation, certainly not this one!
And the function of the church, is to throw some cold water on the overenthusiasm and literal-mindedness of the new believer and bring him or her back to the hard reality of those wooden pews.
"Yes, sonny, I was once like you, but then the pastor and elders set me straight. Now I just come for my weekly spiritual top-off to get me through the rest of the week of the workaday world..."
Posted by: Sojourner Truth | February 6, 2008 6:48 PM
Please correct me if my facts are wrong.
I understand the event was driven by President Jimmy Carter and President Bill Clinton. It was organized and announced at the Carter Center and the Southern Baptist Convention was not invited. The public announcement of the event indicated its intent was to take the microphone away from the Baptists who presently had the microphone.
I don't have a problem with the event. I pray they intend to pursue and build unity--including the SBC.
But I really don't think they get there by starting out the way they did. They and God know their motives.
All I ask in this blog is for the best honesty about the event and not portray it as a unity event in which the SBC refused to participate.
Posted by: letjusticerolldown | February 6, 2008 6:57 PM
Don't look for the "hidden agenda." It was not there, except in the minds of the media and Southern Baptist honchos who excluded themselves from the experience because they weren't in charge of it.
Posted by: Richard Pierard |
Would not be that perception of them that would keep them away would it ?
Posted by: obvious | February 6, 2008 7:04 PM
obvious,
could you reword that last sentence
Jeff
Posted by: Jeff | February 6, 2008 7:38 PM
Hello,
I'd like to return to Adam's original posting and widen the discussion. With Mike Huckabee's surprisingly strong showing in the primaries yesterday, "Christian values" are sure to play a big role in the election this year.
While that could be good news, the last thing we need is more judgementalism masquerading as Christianity and influencing public policy in negative ways, ranging from tax rebates to the wealthy to gung-ho support for war, regardless of scripture or who has to pay the cost.
I'm wondering if Sojourner readers/members, and even staff, have considered organizing a campaign to raise awareness of key Christian values such as peace and social justice, that you don't hear from a lot of people who like to publicly push what they describe as "Christian" values that I never read in the Gospels.
I think it's great that Jim Wallis made up a bumper sticker that said "God is not a Republican (or a Democrat)". God can't belong to any party or political line. People need to be reminded of that, and also that there's been a shameful appropriation of Christianity as a political brand by the Right Wing, in which everyone who disagrees is not only wrong but standing in God's way.
I'd like to see a visual, graphic campaign organized around a few core Christian values (as articulated by Jesus, not Pat Robertson), that challenges everyone to really think about what Christian values are, and how they should influence politics, both domestically and internationally. For example, you could have Jesus wearing sunglasses and carrying a serious semi-automatic weapon, with the caption "Does this look like Jesus to you?", with a couple of key versus beneath, like "he who lives by the sword shall perish by the sword", and "Peace be with you."
This kind of thing is non-partisan in the conventional sense but radical, in getting to the roots of real Christian values and then contrasting that with how Christianity has been made into a very different set of values, all because Christians were too timid to challenge the situation.
Any takers? Adam, what do you think? I have some ideas.
Peace be with you,
vawineman
Posted by: Richard Leahy | February 6, 2008 8:06 PM
I was there. I have no idea who started the rumor that there were no whites. It was at least 50-50 but probably a majority were white. It does not matter. The American Baptists and Cooperative Baptists were there. The size and importance of Southern Baptists is greatly exagerated. They DO NOT have 16 million members. It is an inside joke. Baptists of all stripes are known to inflate membership by refusing to drop people from their roles. What the SBC does have is a tremendous publicity machine. It is NOT NECESSARY for whites or the SBC to participate in order for Baptists to be a voice for Christ. Remember, the SBC was famously on the other side of abolishing slavery and civil rights for people of color.
Posted by: Jorge | February 6, 2008 8:28 PM
Richard, welcome to the blog; you'll fit right in. In fact, I think it's fair to say what you are proposing is pretty much the purpose of the blog. On good days a real gathering of minds gets going; on other days it devolves into bickering. I haven't read Jim's latest book yet, but from what I gather he does in fact articulate a few Christian principles around which political activity and choices could be made. Check his December post in which he describes the new book.
Posted by: I and I | February 6, 2008 8:29 PM
But, LetJusticeRollDown, it WAS a unity event. I was there. The SBC leaders WERE invited to attend, but refused. Be careful of the "facts" you speak about, lest they be unfactual. Mike Huckabee was invited and scheduled to be there, but cancelled out several months ago.
It was a wonderful meeting! It was not a theological debate, and Tony Campolo was also there (earlier someone mentioned him as not being there) speaking truth as he has a way of doing.
There was great care taken not to make it a political event, but to focus on social justice and unity of purpose, even when we disagree theologically. Surely that is what Jesus spoke about as His desire--our unity. We can only pray that this first attempt will have great outcomes for the future as we all struggle to live the life Jesus has called us to live.
Posted by: genie | February 6, 2008 8:32 PM
Genie--Thank you for responding to my request for correcting my understanding.
Why do you say the SBC was invited?
The commonality of the bodies that first met belong to the North American Baptist Fellowship from which the SBC withdrew in 2004.
I understand there is a desire to connect with
SBC leadership and President Carter pledged to report on the event to the SBC.
It is impossible to instantaneously get everyone on the same page. I have zero criticism. I am immensely grateful for all giving of themselves to this.
I just did not understand that there was desire for the SBC to participate and that they refused. If that is factual--then it is factual. Do we know that?
That's all I'm really asking (because misinformation breads disunity and I am most anxious to correct my misunderstandings0
Posted by: letjusticerolldown | February 6, 2008 8:59 PM
Uh oh the specter of mysticism has raised it's head. Run for the hills conservative evangelicals.
I am a mystic and proud of the unique Christian heritage that comes from the Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic and Quaker traditions. It is a dangerous faith to walk and full of error (if you worship yourself or loose track of the divine.) One could fall into Quitism (a nearly gnostic twist on orthodox mysticism) or any number of errors. it is dangerous, but then I don't see how it's any less dangerous than fundamentalism.
Don't be afraid evangelicals, the waters fine.
p
Posted by: Payshun | February 6, 2008 9:05 PM
Let me also correct something that Mick said. Mystics like myself seek no euphoric experiences or epiphanies. Those are like are the frosting on a cake at the end of a seven course dinner. They are almost meaningless compared to letting go and letting God.
Mystics want God and God alone.
We don't worship ourselves regardless of what our critics say. As usual they don't know what they are talking about because they are willing to settle for shallow expressions of faith.
Contemplation is a prayer form that has existed for over 1000 years. It's older than the shallow prayer forms associated w/ most evangelicalism. It's roots are originally from the Jesus prayer, google or wiki it to know more.
We seek to kill all aspects of our human emotional, spiritual, mental and physical state focusing on breathing and emptying the mind, and spirit. But we don't empty it to the great nothing we empty it to Jesus. His spirit interacts w/ us in ways that are too much for most people. That's understandable it's too much for us. But we learn love and live that love for all people.
So again please do your research and learn about it from people that actually practice it. Most evangelicals don't know how to describe it and believe it's about crazy experiences. That's a lie made from fear. It's about love and knowing that Love (God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit) intimately on His terms, in his way. The only way to do that is for my humanity to be sacrificed and made new daily.
p
Posted by: Payshun | February 6, 2008 9:14 PM
I am really encouraged by this gathering. It would have been great to attend and I am amazed by how much good work Jimmy Carter continues to do.
"Uh oh the specter of mysticism has raised it's head. Run for the hills conservative evangelicals...Don't be afraid evangelicals, the waters fine." Payshun
Agreed. I think that the way it is being brought up here is to use it as a put down of Campolo's Christianity and to paint it as being flawed. Sad that they would resort to this, but not unexpected.
Posted by: JamesMartin | February 6, 2008 9:39 PM
I have been assured by the Beliefnet moderator that the issue I expressed concern about over the weekend has been or is being addressed, so I am going to jump in here and point out that one of the organizers of the conference was Bill Underwood (not Bill Clinton), president of Mercer University and former interim president of Baylor. Underwood is known in the Baptist world as a champion of intellectual and academic freedom, both of which are cornerstones of historic Baptist identity. It is hard to share that identity with people who don't accept it.
On this Ash Wednesday, I want to offer up a prayer for unity among the Body of Christ: unity based on genuine love and respect for others, regardless of differences in background. May the Church truly know that unity and the freedom that it brings, and may that freedom set us free from fear.
Posted by: Another nonymous | February 6, 2008 9:39 PM
Another,
Thanks for your positive sharing. Sometimes we just need these reminders. If we can't take a break and pray together, online, then what's the point of debating and discussing as Christians?
Posted by: I and I | February 6, 2008 10:26 PM
Let me also correct something that Mick said. Mystics like myself seek no euphoric experiences or epiphanies
Posted by: Payshun
Where did I say that ? "Seek " The euphoric feelings are felt with those who use the same techiques with God involved , and I warned people that some believed this eurphoric experience has been from the Lord and been misled .
You warned about possible problems with the practice . Getting defensive P , with all the crappolla you put on the backs of Evangelicals I WOULD EXPECT a little more backbone .
think that the way it is being brought up here is to use it as a put down of Campolo's Christianity and to paint it as being flawed. Sad that they would resort to this, but not unexpected.
Posted by: JamesMartin
Forgot your dosage today ? Don't think without it , it shows .
Posted by: Mick | February 6, 2008 10:35 PM
In all fairness to Doug, I don't think he brought up the Lighthouse Trails piece to bash mysticism--that wasn't even the topic--but to help shed some light on SBC's reasons for non-involvement. Nowhere in his message did he endorse what Lighthouse wrote. Hopefully he'll come back on and clarify.
For the record, the Lighthouse Trails website is http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/. They attack a lot of good writers including Brian McLaren and George Foster, Henri Nouwen, etc--even Mothers of Pre-Schoolers!
And anyway, their take on the reason for SBC's absence is pretty feeble. Essentially, they seemed to be using it to promote their own agenda.
Sorry to continue this straying off the topic.
Posted by: I and I | February 6, 2008 10:41 PM
"...Baptists are uniting across theology, ideology, geography, and race. It placed a particular emphasis on the themes of diversity, good news to the poor..."
Sadly, telling the "good news" is about all that the church and the American people have been willing to do to reduce the suffering of our poor.
Posted by: D.H.Fabian | February 7, 2008 12:12 AM
"Where did I say that ? "Seek " The euphoric feelings are felt with those who use the same techniques with God involved , and I warned people that some believed this euphoric experience has been from the Lord and been misled ."
I used the word "seek" but I did it because I saw this:
"I do not wish to insult or hinder anyones Faith . As A Christian I would warn against it to other Christians , because one who shares our Faith that uses this may reach a conclusion that the Euphoria is Christ given . I see a danger there . I saw that Tony wrote about it and it was on this blog."
There is no euphoria in centering. But sometimes there is some euphoria later in other prayer forms but those are called visions, ephipanies, theophanies. There is a long Hebrew, Christian and Sufi tradition attached to it. I think you are confusing that w/ centering. They are not the same thing at all. You are talking about things you know nothing about and therefore you should not comment on them, unless you like making ignorant statements. Do you?
"My concern would be the same for someone like myself , sometimes when I am worshiping God, sometimes I get very emotional myself and the experience is quite ALL consuming . It takes some spiritual discernment on my part to know which is the Holy Spirit and which may just be me."
In centering there is no doubt that one grows and learns the quiet voice of the Holy Spirit. But it takes dedication, suffering and death. It's not easy to keep doing that. It's the hardest prayer tradition I have ever seen.
"You warned about possible problems with the practice . Getting defensive P , with all the crappolla you put on the backs of Evangelicals I WOULD EXPECT a little more backbone ."
I really don't understand how you could read defensiveness in that post. I was just pointing out the real dangers where you were just spouting off about euphoric experiences. My point is that my backbone has nothing to do w/ this. It never did. I just want an honest portrayal about my spiritual practices. If you need to see my backbone in that then go ahead, but that's a hard thing to see when you don't walk in the traditions I do.
No crapplolla, just the truth. Evangelicalism lacks depth. It's a fact. Any more crappolla you want to talk about?
p
Posted by: Payshun | February 7, 2008 12:58 AM
"Forgot your dosage today ? Don't think without it , it shows ." Posted by: Mick
When I spoke to you on the other post, Mick. I spoke out of anger. That anger was not unprovoked but that does not justify it. Peace to you, Mick.
Posted by: JamesMartin | February 7, 2008 5:53 AM
"In all fairness to Doug, I don't think he brought up the Lighthouse Trails piece to bash mysticism--that wasn't even the topic--but to help shed some light on SBC's reasons for non-involvement. Nowhere in his message did he endorse what Lighthouse wrote." I and I
Fair is fair. You are right, I and I.
Posted by: JamesMartin | February 7, 2008 6:00 AM
Unfortunately I had to log off way too soon yesterday afternoon, so I'm just getting up to date. I love the fact that there were actually some folks at the celebration that shared their take here - way to go Kaylor and Richard!
Jonabark - "Some like immersion in beer or money or power politics. The wonderful thing about Jesus is that the simple essence of his teaching is that anyone who approaches God humbly and with faith , and fearlessly as to a loving Parent will find a freedom and joy that cannot be controlled or bought or sold or taken away because it is the free redemptive love of God."
This is an awesome statement!!!!
I an I - "Lighthouse Trails is pretty extreme. Don't get alarmed if they say Tony is into mysticism. They attack Rick Warren too for that, and many other mainstream spiritual leaders. Take a look at their website and you'll catch what I mean right away. They are on a witch hunt, to say the least."
This is absolutely true. They are to the extreme right of fundamentalist. The old adage, (and please don't take this the wrong way) reminds us of the soundness in the idea that we should keep our friends close, yet our enemies closer is reason enough to keep abreast as to what groups like Lighthouse Trails have to say. Not that I consider them enemies, but they have a much different viewpoint that I do on the ministry work of such folks as Tony, Rick Warren, Brian, Rob Bell, etc,,, They seem to be defined only by what and who they oppose, and not what they up hold. And in case anyone is concerned, I did recieve their permission to copy and share their articles.
letjusticerolldown - "All I ask in this blog is for the best honesty about the event and not portray it as a unity event in which the SBC refused to participate."
It appears to me that NBC is making that very claim on their own website, I don't see it as an assursion that started here? I have yet to read/hear anything form the SBC heiarchy as to why they chose not to participate.
vawineman - "I'd like to return to Adam's original posting and widen the discussion. With Mike Huckabee's surprisingly strong showing in the primaries yesterday, "Christian values" are sure to play a big role in the election this year."
I am intrested in knowing if Mike Huckabee make an effort to try an get added to the roster of speakers at this meeting. If not, I would consider it a very serious missed opportunity on his part, (despite winning the Bible-Belt for the most part on Super Tuesday) yet if he did, was he denied access by the Democrtatic leadership stronghold over the convention? If so this would be a very telling sign of a not-so-hidden agenda. doug
Posted by: Doug | February 7, 2008 7:56 AM
Huckabee calculated that he had little to gain politically by attending - people there wouldn't be angry at him for not doing so - and everything to lose by antagonising political SBC figures like Richard Land who would be angry.
It's true SBC continues to suffer membership attrition in at least some areas of the nation. Anecdotally, we and some other families have withdrawn to other theologically conservative yet more personally engaged denominations. We still continue to receive the conference's publications, which lament with consternation a continuing erosion of membership over the past decade, with an aging demographic for those who remain.
I am adamant in my belief that at least a significant reason is the very narrowed political agenda which is inconsistent with the holistic concerns expressed in scripture. The narrowed views begin to be reflected in a truncated spirituality, too, and you no longer feel like you're being fed or growing in the Spirit.
Posted by: N. M. Rod | February 7, 2008 8:57 AM
Posted by: Payshun | February 7, 2008 12:58 AM
"In centering there is no doubt that one grows and learns the quiet voice of the Holy Spirit. But it takes dedication, suffering and death. It's not easy to keep doing that. It's the hardest prayer tradition I have ever seen."
Amen.
Posted by: Another nonymous | February 7, 2008 9:43 AM
I am glad to see that there is some unity happening, but the separation of church and state is not that we are not to be politically involved ,but that there would not be a state church that would rule over the government and other churches
Posted by: michael quimby | February 7, 2008 9:49 AM
As a Southern Baptist I find this effort far more devisive that helpful. In California many black Baptist churches are seeking affiliation with our associations, and are being accepted because of what the Southern Baptist Conventon offers. Jimmy Carter has said Mormons are Christians and we know Clinton's moral failures. At best you need better spokesmen and at the least you need to stop putting down a denomination that seeks to share Jesus. No we can't find the sixteen million talked about but we know where about eight million Southern Baptists are. Size is not a sign of divine approval however!
Posted by: Dr. Calvin Nation | February 7, 2008 9:53 AM
As a Southern Baptist I find this effort far more devisive that helpful. In California many black Baptist churches are seeking affiliation with our associations, and are being accepted because of what the Southern Baptist Conventon offers. Jimmy Carter has said Mormons are Christians and we know Clinton's moral failures. At best you need better spokesmen and at the least you need to stop putting down a denomination that seeks to share Jesus. No we can't find the sixteen million talked about but we know where about eight million Southern Baptists are. Size is not a sign of divine approval however!
Posted by: Dr. Calvin Nation | February 7, 2008 9:53 AM
As a Southern Baptist I find this effort far more devisive that helpful. In California many black Baptist churches are seeking affiliation with our associations, and are being accepted because of what the Southern Baptist Conventon offers.
Be advised, however, that it has more to do with structure than with theology; e.g. health insurance for pastors and other church workers. I've never been any kind of Baptist, but it is my understanding that the SBC in some ways is pretty diverse. That said, some of its leadership can be frightening (which is why Jimmy Carter left).
Posted by: Rick Nowlin | February 7, 2008 10:11 AM
Rick -
I'm not officially any kind of Baptist either. However, I am from the South - lived here most of my life - and, to paraphrase Garrison Keillor, everybody in the South is Baptist. The Baptists are Baptist, of course, but the Catholics are also Baptist, and the Methodists are Baptist, and even the atheists are Baptist, because the God that they don't believe in is a Baptist God. That's why I take the liberty of commenting here.
Posted by: Another nonymous | February 7, 2008 11:32 AM
Let us not forget that although the national SBC leaders chose not to participate in the Celebration that many Southern Baptists were there and were involved in the planning. Dwight McKissic, a well-known conservative Southern Baptist preacher, said it was like heaven. So it is inaccurate to make this out to be a liberal event. It was much broader than that. There was no partisanship at the meeting (unless you count Bill Clinton praising … Mike Huckabee!), and SBC leaders were praised by the speakers instead of being attacked. Those who chose not to participate missed out on a great opportunity to fulfill the prayer of Jesus in John 17.
Posted by: Kaylor | February 7, 2008 11:37 AM
Another anonymous: "On this Ash Wednesday, I want to offer up a prayer for unity among the Body of Christ: unity based on genuine love and respect for others, regardless of differences in background. May the Church truly know that unity and the freedom that it brings, and may that freedom set us free from fear."
Amen.
JamesMartin: "When I spoke to you on the other post, Mick. I spoke out of anger. That anger was not unprovoked but that does not justify it. Peace to you, Mick."
James, for what it's worth, I'm proud of you.
Posted by: carl copas | February 7, 2008 11:57 AM
Unity among Christians is interesting. I realize the SBC takes a lot of flack. It will probably continue to. It's conservative and dispensationalist roots make it difficult for the rest of to engage w/ them.
But there has to be a way to reconciled w/ people I don't agree w/. Any suggestions?
p
Posted by: Payshun | February 7, 2008 12:25 PM
This is wonderful to hear.
While I am not a Baptist, I had a fair amount of experience with Baptist churches and members through the years; and, hence, have a great respect for the original Baptist tradition. Consequently, I have on a number of occasions had to point out to folks that the radical/reactionary wing of the Southern Baptists does not speak for all Baptists.
God's blessing on your work.
Posted by: Chab Guthrie | February 7, 2008 4:04 PM
I would recommend to those who dislike Bill Clinton but favor Christian unity go the www.newbaptistcovenant.org website and watch his speech. His comments about the role of love in the process of reconciliation were quite remarkable. Y'all would have a hard time disagreeing with what he had to say.
Posted by: Richard Pierard | February 7, 2008 5:09 PM
Since 1971 the "American Baptist Convention", formerly the Northern Baptists, has been known as the American Baptist Churches in the USA (ABC-USA). Please get the name right in your story, we have a long and noble heritage.
Posted by: David Casto | February 7, 2008 6:01 PM
Guys, please.... it is Campolo. Your inaccuracies in names makes me seriously doubt the slurs toward Campolo, Gore, et.al. regarding "eastern mysticism. By the way, is that something that is practiced on the East Coast, maybe Delaware??
Seriously, the Christian faith has a long history of meditative practice and Christian mystics. Read your church history!
Posted by: David Casto | February 7, 2008 6:08 PM
Calvin Nation wrote: "Jimmy Carter has said Mormons are Christians . . ."
Calvin is referring to a Newsweek interview that occurred after Carter called for the recent Celebration meeting. In May, 2007 Rabbi Michael Lerner reports Carter called Judaism an "equally legitimate path to God" and encouraged Jewish leaders to shun supportive overtures of "Zionists" who only want to see them converted. Carter has not refuted either report of his supposed comments, so they may be true. We don't know.
Based on Carter's silence and seeing no responses to what Calvin said above, I take it none of you "Baptists" are concerned at all that salvific pluralism might be an acceptable view in NBC circles?
Until and unless Carter refutes the reports and reporters, Calvin is correct that the NBC needs a better spokesman. Or, perhaps "New Baptist" will be a title, not a description.
Posted by: Chuck | February 7, 2008 7:43 PM
Yes, yes! It's most important to spend your time answering any and all queries about "When did you stop beating your wife?"
And until you respond we will assume you *are* beating your wife!
Posted by: Sojourner Truth | February 7, 2008 8:22 PM
I think a serious flaw was the prominent involvement of Bill Clinton up front. He doesn't have Carter's record of deep church involvement, although he is a Baptist. It brought a focus on it being the thing of two former Democratic Presidents, one of whom is the wife of a current Democratic Presidential candidate.
There were more prominent Republicans who were invited and who initially accepted, but backed out because it got too Democratic an image, primarily due to Clinton. One of those was Mike Huckabee. The organizers did make a serious effort to cross the political lines, but the heavy publicity about it being a thing both Carter and Clinton were about compromised their efforts.
Even without the SBC leadership supporting it, it could have gotten more SBC involvement (Huckabee was once President of the state SBC convention) if it hadn't become so identified in the public mind with Democrats. There are many in the SBC (including Huckabee) who are much more interested in dialogue across theological and political lines than the SBC leadership.
Posted by: Bill Samuel | February 7, 2008 8:39 PM
Uh oh the specter of mysticism has raised it's head. Run for the hills conservative evangelicals.
I am a mystic and proud of the unique Christian heritage that comes from the Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic and Quaker traditions.
Posted by: Payshun | February 6, 2008 9:05 PM
Ironically, there were elements of mysticism in some components of American fundamentalism in the early-mid 20th century. Some would even argue there is significant overlap between mysticism and pietism. You're right, P, regretably it has become a bogeyman for some.
Btw, is it true that if you go to the Lighthouse Trails website, Gene Autry can be heard singing "Happy Trails to You?" I searched high and low on that website for some indication of their qualifications for what they're doing but came away concluding they see themselves as a self-appointed watchdog to all matters orthodox??
Posted by: canucklehead | February 7, 2008 8:42 PM
"Ironically, there were elements of mysticism in some components of American fundamentalism in the early-mid 20th century. Some would even argue there is significant overlap between mysticism and pietism. You're right, P, regretably it has become a bogeyman for some."
That's the sad part. by and large Mystics are pluralist in many aspects of their theology. We get along w/ every group. The only group we have issues w/ are fundamentalists and this same divide exists in Islam, go figure. The same divide is not there is Judaism.
p
Posted by: Payshun | February 7, 2008 8:59 PM
When I spoke to you on the other post, Mick. I spoke out of anger. That anger was not unprovoked but that does not justify it. Peace to you, Mick.
Posted by: JamesMartin
God Bless you James Martin .
Posted by: Mick | February 8, 2008 12:52 AM
"There is no euphoria in centering.
"But sometimes there is some euphoria later in other prayer forms but those are called visions, ephipanies, theophanies."
Posted by: Payshun
Again you are talking about your religion , the conversation started weith a reference to Eastern Mysticism .
"You are talking about things you know nothing about and therefore you should not comment on them, unless you like making ignorant statements. Do you?"
I warned about Eastern Mysticsm . Which , unless you want to defend blending in another Faith that has nothing to do with Christ , is what Doug said Tony was doing . if that is not so , good for Tony , If he is , hopefully a friend will help him out . Of course we all know you need no help .
" I was just pointing out the real dangers where you were just spouting off about euphoric experiences. "
I guess it sounds like spouting whyen you get so defensive about your own "religion" I was talking to Eastern Mysticism , not Christian Mysticism . .
Again this was Doug's post That I responded to
"In addition to Al Gore and Tony Campolo, both advocates of eastern mysticism, "
Notice the word Eastern P . I guess if your not being defensive about your religion , you proceeded to make everyone on this blog appear to be defending Eastern Mysticism . Big Difference between Eastern Mysticism and Christian Mysticism .
"No crapplolla, just the truth. Evangelicalism lacks depth. It's a fact. Any more crappolla you want to talk about?"
Your inability to understand the difference between Eastern Mysticism and Christian Mysticism just shows your mistake in the conversation .
. I praise the Lord for what depth He has allowed in my life . For I know it Because Him , not me that I have gained any wisdom or strenghth through Christ at all . It must be hard to know you have such a superior view point and understanding Of Christ and the rest of us just can not see it in you .
Posted by: Mick | February 8, 2008 1:41 AM
Mick,
I don't really care if you see Christ in me. But I bless you regardless of what you see. You are Christ's beloved and for that I am grateful. Blessings to you.
eastern mysticism was not even an accurate description of Campolo's prayer practice. A few weeks back his prayer blog dealt w/ Lectio Divina and centering. Neither of those are eastern mysticism. Those are purely western prayer forms, one of which developed in Egypt nearly 1000 years ago w/ the Jesus Prayer.I wish you would get that right. He is not an eastern mystic, and by eastern what were you talking about anyway? Did you think he was a buddhist? Thomas Merton is someone you should read, he can be considered an eastern mystic and guess what he is a Christian too.
I never said centering is superior just deeper. That doesn't mean that other prayer forms are less important. One should strive to practice all forms of prayer because all are necessary. But in order to truly grow in a deeper relationship w/ God then one should look to deeper forms of prayer. That doesn't make me superior. I just think that your insecurities are talking.
p
Posted by: Payshun | February 8, 2008 1:55 AM
Here is the actual link to what Tony wrote.
http://blog.beliefnet.com/godspolitics/2008/01/a-cure-for-burnouts-by-tony-ca.html
p
Posted by: Payshun | February 8, 2008 1:58 AM
Baptists are as diverse a block of believers as one will ever encounter. Indeed, that is exactly why we are not a "denomination". Baptists pioneered soul freedom, separation of Church and State and the priesthood of believers, the fundamental idea of which is that all believers have equal access to God. Baptists also are at the front of the line in "sola scriptura". Somewhere along the line, many have forgotten, too, that from its inception, Baptists, were a "lay" movement (though that has drastically changed, and the corruption of that ideal and value manifests itself clearly in places even the blind can see.
As a glad participant in the Atlanta event, as a man who has had a lengthy history with SBC churches, pastors, state conventions and international missionaries, as a person who has sojourned through several different international Baptist communities, and as an American Baptist pastor, I believe the Atlanta event was a laudable attempt at providing a forum for all North American Baptists, hewn from the same rock, to gather for inspiration, and possibilities.
Carter and Clinton are not "spokespersons" for Baptists. This is a misunderstanding of Baptist polity. And it is debatable how prominent Clinton was in the whole planning anyway! I am so grateful to God that where some see liberals, God sees children; where God sees conservatives, God sees children; where some see Clinton a rotten "sinner", God sees his forgiven son; where some see a failed and wasted event, God smiled at the tremendous declaration of his Word, the inspiration shared around superb music, Christian witness, and even he must have muttered Psalm 133:1 to himself last week!
Are Baptists perfect? Nope; never have been. One thing most posters here have to learn is that the "liberal" and "conservative" labels we love to bandy, and the easy judgments to which we love to jump about some other poster, is a denial of the very freedoms we enjoy in America, which declares that all views contend, and every position has its rightful location in the marketplace. I think I heard one speaker at the Atlanta event declare something to the effect that liberals need a little bit of conservativism and conservatives need a little bit of liberalism in order to be credible and responsible. How true.
Can't we refrain, in these discussions, from flinging the labels all over the place, and arguing the issues?
Posted by: Michael Friday | February 8, 2008 2:00 AM
The last line above should have ended, "...and argue the issues alone, instead?"
Posted by: Michael Friday | February 8, 2008 2:01 AM
By the way, my sources are very solid and highly placed, that YES, the SBC were invited to this event from the get-go, and declined; YES, Mike Huckabee was invited and declined; YES, some individual SBC persons were involved and present, but not in a Convention capacity. And yes, nobody present could truthfully claim that this was a platform for any political mileage for ANYBODY. Senator Charles Grassley was gracious as was Mr Clinton towards him. The event was a huge success at avoiding criticism of anybody, and highlighting the tremendous mission that lies ahead for Christians to accomplish both at home and abroad.
Posted by: Michael Friday | February 8, 2008 2:11 AM
You said:
"I do not wish to insult or hinder anyones Faith . As A Christian I would warn against it to other Christians , because one who shares our Faith that uses this may reach a conclusion that the Euphoria is Christ given . I see a danger there . I saw that Tony wrote about it and it was on this blog."
But you are warning people over nothing. Eastern mysticism is not what Tony or Al practices. Al Gore is a born again Christian.
You can read more about it here.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/e2247.htm
Doug is reprinting lies about Tony and Al. That sucks.
"In addition to Al Gore and Tony Campolo, both advocates of eastern mysticism, some of the "Presenters" at the conference are also proponents of mystical meditation:"
I don't know what type of meditation Al Gore practices and neither does Doug. For him to quote that website shows a level of ignorance that makes me speechless. Not only that but then you parroted the line and ran w/ it.
Now you back away from your erroneous statements because you are starting to realize they were wrong. Good for you. But please get the actual form of meditation correct. That's why I spoke of Christian mysticism because that's what Tony actually does. As for Al he obviously has some mystical views but it never says he practices any form of mystical prayer. I wish these evangelicals would get that right.
p
Posted by: Payshun | February 8, 2008 2:31 AM
"But please get the actual form of meditation correct. That's why I spoke of Christian mysticism because that's what Tony actually does. As for Al he obviously has some mystical views but it never says he practices any form of mystical prayer. I wish these evangelicals would get that right." Posted by: Payshun |
Unfortunately lectio divina and centering prayer, although ancient practices in the Christian church are not taught in the vast majority of evangelical churches. I do not know whether that is attributable to the abrupt and radical separation from Roman Catholicism that many protestant churches underwent, ignorance, fear, or a desire to exercise undue control over the way people relate to God. My guess is that it is a combination of all of these factors. Whatever the cause or motive, it is tragic that these sacred practices are maligned by fundamentalist Pharisees like the web site referred to above.
I too have benefited greatly from centering prayer. It is all too easy to engage in criticism. It is harder and requires more patience and effort to actually come to an understanding. I'm with you, Payshun.
Peace,
Jim
Posted by: JamesMartin | February 8, 2008 9:33 AM
Payshun wrote: "Doug is reprinting lies about Tony and Al. That sucks." "I don't know what type of meditation Al Gore practices and neither does Doug. For him to quote that website shows a level of ignorance that makes me speechless. Not only that but then you parroted the line and ran w/ it."
First off, I would not knowingly post a lie regarding anyone.
Secondly, I was merely referencing the "Not-so Happy Trail" folks to add their take on the Celebration and the participants to the conversation. As I hoped it resulted in widening this very thoughtful discussion from the meeting itself, to include also issues that tag along with some of the key speakers that were there. And thus I learned more about them. If by doing that it shows my ignorance as you suggest, then so be it. Ignorance is merely a lack of knowledge.
I'm sure that you're not a defensive person by nature Payshun, but at times you seem to get revved up my Mick's or others comments and you seem to want to slash out. This is just my opinion, so take it for what its worth. But at those times when you begin to feel the seething begin to transpire into the words you write, take a deep breath, and feel the loving spirit of Jesus himself take over your heart, soul, and mind. Maybe this will help you to keep things in a loving perspective. ??? your brother in Christ, doug
Posted by: Doug | February 8, 2008 9:42 AM
Payshun: "But there has to be a way to reconcile w/ people I don't agree w/. Any suggestions?"
Payshun, it starts with being fair. I have to say there is much I agree with you on, being a fellow liberal and a onetime Quaker who sees the benefit of Christian mysticism. But I already pointed out quite some time ago that Doug appeared to be posting the Lighthouse quote not in order to spread false ideas about Tony or mysticism, but to shed light on ONE extremist group's take on the convention. Doug affirmed this when he got back on the thread. So it is distressing that you have said "I don't know what type of meditation Al Gore practices and neither does Doug. For him to quote that website shows a level of ignorance that makes me speechless." You are beginning a fight where there was not one.
You've contributed much of worth to this blog and this seems out of character for you. Given it was just a misunderstanding, can you just forgive and forget?
Posted by: I and I | February 8, 2008 10:08 AM
I am a Baptist and I was there. I was privileged to attend the Thursday morning session, the luncheon at which Mr. Gore spoke, and a workshop on Faith and Public Policy, and was truly blessed by sharing in worship and study with Baptists from around the world. I am a scientist by profession and a liberal Democrat by politics - because science and teaching was my calling, and becaue my Lord was (is) the most radical thinker of all time. The New Baptist Covenant is an attempt to catch up with Jesus and take his teachings seriously.
Posted by: Charlotte Ward | February 8, 2008 10:39 AM
"But at those times when you begin to feel the seething begin to transpire into the words you write, take a deep breath, and feel the loving spirit of Jesus himself take over your heart, soul, and mind. Maybe this will help you to keep things in a loving perspective. ??? your brother in Christ, doug" Posted by: Doug
This is just dripping with condescension and is anything but conciliatory.
Posted by: JamesMartin | February 8, 2008 11:13 AM
James, I can see how you would think that - but it is far from the truth or my intent! I just believe some folks get way too emotionally attached to the cnversations here, and begin to fling insults or personal jabs at others instead of focusing on the content of the item at hand. Since you don't know anything about me, I can see how you could mistake my comments to Payshun as condesending, but that isn't within my normal character. I'm sorry that you thought that way. My comments about breathing in the peaceful spirit of Christ were truly innocent and stem from my own experiences with what some want to lable as "mysticism". I've always looked at it as simply a way of drawing closer to God. Which I believe payshun and I would both agree to???
I think one of the finer things that I've seen done this week on these threads was your reconcillation note to Mick. I thought that showed real class. Be blessed! doug
Posted by: Doug | February 8, 2008 12:25 PM
But you are warning people over nothing. Eastern mysticism is not what Tony or Al practices. Al Gore is a born again Christian
I quoted Doug's source P , and said I hoped Tony was not going that way . I and I told me the source even had Rick Warren on it , I then checked out the web myself , and it did seem to be a blog that would hold Jesus Christ in contempt of the scriptures . Having that said again , I warned about a Eastern Mysticism stated by Doug , and then stated I hoped Tony was not going that way even before I investigated the validity of the comments ., and I even tried to make sure I did not injure anyones personal Faith , but Eastern Mysticism and Christianity being mixed could hinder anyone's walk with the Lord .
Also My Faith teaches that people should be able to see I am a follower of Christ . Sometimes my pride stops that .
Posted by: Mick | February 8, 2008 1:19 PM
I was only able to attend one day of the New Baptist Covenant, but I found it one of the most encouraging events I've ever attended. It was the brainchild of Jimmy Carter and William Underwood, president of Mercer University. Bill Clinton was asked to be, and identified himself, as a "cheerleader" for the event, not an organizer. Pres. Carter talked with Southern Baptist leaders early on about participating, but they declined. The president of the Southern Baptist Convention was quoted in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution as saying that Baptists ought to be focused on evangelism, not politics --striking because Southern Baptists have been quite busy in recent years endorsing various political stances, and striking because it seemed to reject issues such as poverty, racism, and creation care as outside the responsibility of Baptist Christians.
I don't know what this stuff about Tony Campolo and mysticism is, but I know that he preached the gospel with power on that Thursday morning!
Posted by: L D | February 8, 2008 2:10 PM
"Also My Faith teaches that people should be able to see I am a follower of Christ. Sometimes my pride stops that."
As it does all of us Mick. None of us can throw the first stone.
Be blessed, brother, and have a great weekend.
Posted by: carl copas | February 8, 2008 4:54 PM
Mick and I have issues. I don't think I am trying to be defensive here, but I interpreted Doug's use of that website as a defense of that. That pissed me off. That was my bad.
Mick you are right, mixing eastern mysticism w/ Christianity can be dangerous. But then again any spirituality is dangerous. There are some Christians that do it right like Thomas Merton. He understands that Zen Buddhism can teach people the beautiful art of detachment, (basically never letting our enjoyment of the moment turn us into people that worship possessions.)
I admire Christians that are orthodox but still teach the principles and universal truths that exist in all religion. I have seen this true w/ a Christian mystic by the name of Bede Griffith. he merges Hindu mystical principles w/ Christianity w/o sacrificing Jesus. He is a Christian but the way he would define or explain that belief system is not something fundamentalism would ever stomach. That saddens me because so much life is found in that and we can see Jesus in new and exciting ways. It deepens worship.
Like the Hindu idea of prana (the life energy that lives in the body, the Japanese call this chi.) I worship God because he made the human body so wonderfully. It doesn't mean that I now worship Vishnu or Brahma.
"Also My Faith teaches that people should be able to see I am a follower of Christ . Sometimes my pride stops that."
I would not give your pride that much power. I still see that you are God's beloved son, I still see Jesus in you and nothing you say or do could change that, even when you question the Jesus in me.
Oh and I can forgive and forget.
p
Posted by: Payshun | February 8, 2008 7:19 PM
thanks James,
The reason there is very little mystical teaching in the evangelical American church can be traced to the founder of the Protestant Christianity, Martin Luther himself.
He hated it, thought it was not necessary and felt that since he could never achieve peace through it (and honestly the man lacked people that were great teachers of the tradition) people that followed him should not know it. It's sad really. Luther did a lot of good but there were a few things that he got wrong and unfortunately ignoring Christian mysticism was one of the things he got wrong.
I have to admit something. The spirit has been convicting me for a while, it's just that sometimes I can be stubborn. Aspects of evangelicalism can create and foster depth. I was wrong to say that the whole religion is dead. Most of it is really immature and childish but then again that was true of my faith walk a little while ago. I went to a wedding a few months ago that blew me away. I saw my Father's spirit in everything. It was an evangelical wedding. I learned that there were evangelicals that were following God w/ their whole heart. who knew?
p
Posted by: Payshun | February 8, 2008 7:31 PM
I loved your article and would have loved to have heard the wonderful speakers. From the comments, I now understand the broad spectrum of Baptists and why I have such a hard time calling myself one, even though Baptist was the only faith I knew until adulthood. I love the social consciousness that you are bringing to this religion...one that I could gladly join.
Posted by: Kathy Patrick | February 11, 2008 9:28 AM
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