The Worst of the Worst? (by Ryan Rodrick Beiler)
Friday morning I posted about Bush legalizing waterboarding. That evening, Bill Moyers' Journal had a compelling and disturbing segment on the use of torture by U.S. forces. It was about the Oscar-nominated documentary film, Taxi to the Dark Side, directed by Alex Gibney who made Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room. The Moyers segment includes excerpts from the film and testimony of prisoners falsely accused and tortured in Afghanistan and Iraq. Watch it.
Key quote:
Despite Rumsfeld's and Cheney's and President Bush's allegations that these guys are the worst of the worst, that they were all captured on the battlefield, recent studies of the whole compendium of the government's documents show that only five percent of these people were picked up by the United States. Only eight percent of them are accused of being members of the Al Qaeda. Over 90 percent of them were picked up by Northern Alliance or Pakistani forces in exchange for bounties.
Ryan Rodrick Beiler is the Web editor for Sojourners.
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Comments
May God forgive us, and may someone, someday be held to account for this...
Posted by: radicaljonny | February 11, 2008 2:38 PM
How wonderfull. Thanks to the glorious leadership of the Compassionate One we have become a country which grabs innocent people off the street, imprisons them indefinitely without trial and tortures them. What's next, dropping The Bomb on Iran?
Posted by: Don Gisselbeck | February 11, 2008 2:51 PM
I can't help think that as a nation we're going to pay dearly for these unconscionable acts. At least there is hope that, whoever is elected president next, that person will put a stop to such evil and ultimately self-defeating actions.
Posted by: L D | February 11, 2008 4:26 PM
If it had been for the Compassionate One only, then it would not have been such a big deal. The real problem is that he has such a big following, all representatives and senators and politicians who empower him, and also all the people who still admire him. I bet the overwhelming majority of them are regular churchgoers and they would even try to convince anybody who would listen that the guy is a Christian.
What happened to the Sermon on the Mount?
Posted by: Ernie | February 11, 2008 4:26 PM
We know it's wrong, it's evil. Now what can we do to stop it? Signing petitions is fine "for the record", but this administration couldn't care less about objections from mere citizens. What we call "the opposition", aka the Dem Party, will grumble a bit on occasion, but they've consistently allowed everything that Bush has wanted. How can we organize enough people who can show enough unity and force to ensure the changes that are vitally important?
Posted by: DHFabian | February 11, 2008 5:32 PM
first of all, I really can't trust Bill Moyers. He has shown himself to be quite biased and anti-Christian. And secondly, for the record, only 3 terrorist suspects have undergone waterboarding since 2001. But meanwhile, these men (the terrorists) have been in cohorts with those who strap bombs to children and blow them up, among other vicious inhumane acts. Hmmm.... I believe nations do have the right to interrogate terrorists and put an end to their deeds. I'm not talking about the church, I'm talking about nations.
Posted by: catherine | February 11, 2008 6:27 PM
"first of all, I really can't trust Bill Moyers. He has shown himself to be quite biased and anti-Christian."
Bill Moyers is an ordained Baptist minister. I assume that what you mean is not that he is anti-Christian, but that he is vocally and articulately opposed to a particular way of mixing Christianity and politics.
Posted by: Another nonymous | February 11, 2008 7:11 PM
Catherine - you should rightly apologize for calling Bill Moyers "anti-Christian." Anti-Bush, anti-Republican, anti-Religious Right, perhaps. Or are those terms synonymous with "Christian" in your mind? If so, then that is truly scary.
Posted by: canucklehead | February 11, 2008 7:54 PM
May God forgive us, and may someone, someday be held to account for this...
Unfortunately, I think that we the American people as much as our leaders are the ones to be held to account. We voted them in...twice...And history if looked at at all, would have told us all we needed to know of the Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowicz group. Until the actions of these "compassionate leaders" touch us directly, as in a draft perhaps, I think we will go blithly along with our heads in the sand. A cynical viewpoint perhaps, but not much in these last seven years has pointed to it being incorrect.
Posted by: zoink | February 11, 2008 8:24 PM
I'm not here to fight, but whether or not Moyers is an ordained Baptist minister, really means nothing. It is not hard to find instances where Moyers makes things up about Christians and I'm not referring to the Bush, Republicans, Religious Right, etc. But maybe the key words are "conservative Christians." In the Canada free press I read the following: "Southern born and bred, Moyers, an ordained Baptist Minister, called conservative Christians "homegrown Ayatollahs," equating them to Islamist terrorists." By Anthony Oluwatoyin
Friday, October 28, 2005
Or perhaps being anti-Christian is synonymous with being anti-Bush, anti-Republican, anti-Religious Right in Moyer's mind. Does that scare you, Canucklehead? It scares me.
Posted by: Catherine | February 11, 2008 9:18 PM
Actually, it doesn't scare me. I'm just disturbed by his attacks on people who call themselves Christians (the term "conservative can means so many things. There needs to be clarification if he is truly only trying to attack the right-wing) and i'm disturbed that he is given so much credit as a journalist when he is so incredibly biased.
Posted by: catherine | February 11, 2008 9:35 PM
Since when is it ok as long as we only torture three people (which is clearly not the case anyway)? How many makes it bad?
We're all responsible from the moment we know these things are being done in our names. The question is, what then? I have written letters and signed the petitions and, you know, whined about it and all those passive, virtually useless things, but I have to echo DHFabian - what do we do? I know I need to do something, but I'm not sure what it is. I feel sort of helpless; doubly so since this administration has somehow in just a few years changed all the rules.
Posted by: kimberly | February 11, 2008 9:40 PM
Catherine -
Now I'm confused. I take it you're identifying yourself as a conservative, at least in some sense. Yet you recently referred approvingly to G. K. Chesterton's Orthodoxy. One of Chesterton's central themes is the necessity, in a fallen world, of being progressive, even revolutionary, in order to prevent things from falling progressively under the power of sin. I can think of few journalists who have argued that point more eloquently or persuasively than Bill Moyers, whom I deeply admire and respect. I don't think he's incredibly biased at all: just incredibly good at what he does.
Posted by: Another nonymous | February 11, 2008 9:43 PM
With regard to accountability:
For some time, I have been thinking that the Republican Political Machine has been and is
the most destructive force in America. Surely there must be some erudite and impartial historians who keep track of such things. I have seen lists of the "most effective presidents,"
for example.
By its destruction of the "liberal media," the demonization of anything other than redneck religion, and the hiding of caskets returning from Iraq, we can be assured that there will be no national accountability for a long time.
I've heard several interesting things about the CIA:
-They work to keep Republicans and Democrats
apart.
-One of their methods is to create a problem, and then step in to solve it.
To begin with, we need a list. The List of the most destructive policies in America during the
last 50 years.
In his book "Jesus of Nazareth," Gunther Bornkom had a wonderful line in his preface:
As we begin to seriously study the life of Jesus of Nazareth, we must be prepared to find things we do not expect.
Posted by: plumbline | February 11, 2008 9:50 PM
"I have been thinking that the Republican Political Machine has been and is
the most destructive force in America. Surely there must be some erudite and impartial historians who keep track of such things. I have seen lists of the 'most effective presidents,'
for example."
If by "Republican Political Machine" you mean the kind of politics that Rove and co. have practiced for the past 8 years, I rather agree with you.
But as an academic historian, I can tell you: there are many "erudite" historians but there are no "impartial" historians. Some get closer to impartiality than do others, but just as there is no such thing as absolute journalistic objectivity (Fox News claims notwithstanding), there are no impartial historians.
I've answered a number of those "most effective presidents" queries, and "the worst president" lists, etc. Usually, you get a letter, or these days an email, from some scholar asking you to rank the presidents. You may or may not respond, but if you have an axe to grind against or for one or more presidents you're more likely to do so.
So the rankings come from self-selected historians (nothing like modern scientific polling samples) who often are ideologically motivated. "Impartiality" isn't part of the picture.
Posted by: carl copas | February 11, 2008 11:30 PM
>>"It is not hard to find instances where Moyers makes things up about Christians and I'm not referring to the Bush, Republicans, Religious Right, etc. But maybe the key words are "conservative Christians." In the Canada free press I read the following: "Southern born and bred, Moyers, an ordained Baptist Minister, called conservative Christians "homegrown Ayatollahs," equating them to Islamist terrorists." By Anthony Oluwatoyin
-Catherine
Catherine, I live in Canada and have worked in the Canadian media. Journalists do not take kindly to the accusation that they "make things up" and your accusation of Bill in that regard requires either concrete proof of your claims or a genuine apology.
That being said, the fact that you are apparently familiar with canadafreepress.com prompts me to suspect that neither proof or an apology will be forthcoming anytime soon. For those in the know, and cfp is certainly not a well-known source here, cfp does not rate as a bastion of credibility.
In any event, as a Baptist, and having been following the thread on Shane Clayborne's posting yesterday on God's Politics re his disinvitation to Cedarville college, it's obvious the "Free Speech for Me, But Not for Thee" police are very active in conservative Christian circles (no surprise there). Accordingly, Bill's thots on "homegrown Ayatollahs" is, sadly, accurate.
Posted by: canucklehead | February 11, 2008 11:49 PM
Hi Canucklehead,
I invite you to read the following article found at:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID={DEB0BB4F-80B9-49B9-8095-116A923BE524}
And this is just one instance. I know you could find more if you tried yourself, being closely acquainted with the media and all.
I'm not sure why you keep asking me to apologize. I haven't wronged Moyers by stating some of the things he is guilty of. I haven't called him names and I won't. And how have I wronged you that you would ask me to apologize? Your the one who agrees with the name "homegrown Ayatollahs." Wow.
I know that I won't convince anyone on this website to take off the blinders so I'm not going to try anymore. I've been wasting my time and I have other things I should be doing.
Thanks for engaging me in conversation, albeit, it was more like being labeled and presumed upon in conversation.
Posted by: catherine | February 12, 2008 8:47 AM
Sorry you're leaving, Catherine. I was going to address what seemd to be a defense of torture in your first post. Or was I misreading? (It seemed like that was your main point, not the statement about Mr. Moyer.)
Posted by: I and I | February 12, 2008 9:39 AM
Catherine, I followed your link. Bill Moyers indeed did apologize for repeating the quote about Watt, which he got from the magazine Grist. That does not make him anti-Christian.
And it so happens, by the way, that Moyers does have a point about end-times theology causing people to have a destructuve view of the planet. Read the quotes from a horse's mouth here:http://www.pbs.org/moyers/moyersonamerica/print/isgodgreen_transcript_print.html
Read it! Moyers has several Christians on his show, including the fine Christian leader Rich Cizik. But he does quote someone named Beisner from Florida, who precisely makes the link between his own end times theology and his lack of concern for global warming. Catherine, there is nothing anti-Christian here. He presented many sides of an issue and was taking issue with one interpretation, not with Christian teaching as a whole.
Or am I wasting my time explaining all this? Just read the link.
Posted by: I and I | February 12, 2008 9:49 AM
Catherine -
You need to realize that Bill Moyers is a hero to many at this site for doing exactly the things that you upbraid him for - and we read Chesterton and C. S. Lewis and consider ourselves Christians.
Posted by: Another nonymous | February 12, 2008 12:27 PM
I was amused to see ther post regarding Moyers
thought on "homegrown Ayatollahs."
I've had the same thought(!)and certainly see a similarity between the Taliban and our right wing "Christians" who want to force other people's children to have unwanted babies.
Katherine Jefferts Schori, the recently consecrated Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church in the U.S., is another Christian who was interviewed by Moyers. In response to a question by Moyers as to what she thought God must feel about the created universe, she replied "joy."
Posted by: plumbline | February 12, 2008 1:55 PM
"And secondly, for the record, only 3 terrorist suspects have undergone waterboarding since 2001."
Interesting that you can authoritatively pronounce the truth of an assertion that the preponderance of evidence rejects.
In reality, you have absolutely no idea of how many people, whether legitimate suspects or no, have been tortured (which is always illegitimate) by any means, except that as more information comes out that's been hidden, it's an ever greater number. But come out it should - it's not loose lips that sink ships, but loose cannons.
Why have we gone from denial, to shame, to mendacious justifying pride in these matters?
I really hate when our own side's pronouncements begin to sound like the wicked propaganda of a banal Soviet Kosygin or Brezhnev. We have squandered our moral capital. It could have been so different - but the end result will be the same for us as it was for them. Instead of being saviors of the region, as we hoped and dreamed (at least some of us) we will be ejected as hated occupiers in the end, after a whole lot of destruction on all sides that simply did not have to be had we not abandoned the high moral ground.
Posted by: Tortured Logic | February 12, 2008 4:47 PM
Since the administration said only 3 were waterboarded BY THE CIA, they have admitted they have hired private torturers who have used waterboarding. No attempt to say how many these have waterboarded.
The problem with saying those abused are terrorists is that we have a system of law which guarantees a trail by a jury of peers with open evidence, rules for the admissability of evidence and a presumption that the burden of proof is with the accuser. The point that the movie makes evident is that many have been treated brutally who were innocent of any crime but being unlucky.
There is an excellent discussion of this topic in an interview by the lawyer Scot Horton with the Iranian American academic,Darius Rejali, who just published a book about torture(Torture and Democracy). http://www.harpers.org/subjects/NoComment feb 13 08
Posted by: jonabark | February 13, 2008 2:10 PM
Here is a sample of Pofeessor Rejali's thoughts:Torture involves giving absolute power by one individual over another. Our founders knew that absolute power corrupts absolutely and that we shouldn’t even trust ourselves with absolute power. That is why they promoted limited government in politics, toleration of minorities in social life, and dignity in our relations with strangers. The history of slavery teaches us that this kind of power corrupts society, and the history of torture shows how badly it damages states. Thomas Hobbes, whose national security credentials are impeccable, says it quite clearly in The Leviathan: “Accusations upon torture, are not to be reputed as testimonies” for what each prisoner confesses “tendeth to the ease of him that is tortured, not to the informing of the torturers.” People will say anything under torture to ease pain, says Hobbes, and this as far as he concerned, corrupted the judicial process and made all of us unsafe.
Posted by: jonabark | February 13, 2008 2:14 PM
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