I could not agree more. I have faced this in my own church. It's just odd because the lay people that the church looks to for prayer are the same people that turn to me for prayer and look to me to teach about issues of reconciliation and justice. I will never be the meek, unassuming white leadership they like to promote.

p

Posted by: payshun | February 11, 2008 11:15 AM

We will see the 'Kingdom of God' when we finally look for the canidate that God would have for a position rather than the color/ethnicity of the person. (feel free to add other factors)

Back in the dark ages when I attended High School. (no I did not ride a dino to school - they had just been replaced with oxen) I went to a school that was about 97% white. My senior year - our class was one of the most connected to the community this school had ever seen in our district. Mentoring in elementary schools - assisting in nursing homes. Getting involved with community events and gatherings, etc. Charlie was our student body president and had this vision and communicated it to us. Challenges us to 'pay it forward' before that was a phrase we all know. He united us like no other person in student gov't ever had to that point.

Charlie was black - irrelivant to us in high school at that time - not so much today.

How sad!

Blessings -
.

Posted by: Moderatelad | February 11, 2008 12:17 PM

Well, sometimes you need to "rock the boat."

Especially if you want growth.

p

Posted by: Payshun | February 11, 2008 12:29 PM

We actually faced this in my own church years before I came because the church has integrated over the past 20 years; eventually African-American elders were called to let them know, "You have a stake in this, too; it doesn't all depend on what we [in the majority] do." It's the same reason why, in the early church after the Greek community complained about their widows being neglected, the Apostles told them to put some of their best men in diaconate positions to run the whole operation.

Posted by: Rick Nowlin | February 11, 2008 12:48 PM

I don't think that his being black and the majority of the rest being white registered high on his meter. We were equals - fellow students - co-workers for the benefit of our community.

That's not the point. What if your town were, say, 25 percent black or more? You best believe that the dynanics would have been far, far different -- after all, that's why the South had all those race problems back in the day. Diversity, in fact, is not just about numerical body count; it also means experiences, culture and all that kind of stuff that comes from close contact.

You see, I know personally what it's like to be the "first" or the "only." I myself experienced no lingering problems, but my own people occasionally called me a "Tom" for hanging around white folks. (Only recently did my mother understand what I was doing back then.)

Posted by: Rick Nowlin | February 11, 2008 12:54 PM

so long as this kind of article continues to be written, people will continue to believe there is a shortage of non-white leadership. as with the current political contest, people look for leadership where they feel most comfortable.
rick; "trying to strip people of their racial identity, and the experiences and history that goes with it, is ludicrous." does this apply to whites?
i look around at mayors, governors, legislators, ceo's, managers, sports figures, preachers, boards, commissions, etc. and i see diversity. if randy, rick and payshun are uncomfortable maybe they have personal problems that don't apply to everyone. maybe their schedule for diversity and perfect integration is different than others. i may be naive but i think that people who profess to be christians try hard to be fair, understanding and compassionate.

Posted by: jerry | February 11, 2008 4:01 PM

Lest anyone think that I believe that my high school experience is the way the US or the World is - sadly, even I know that it isn't.

I believe that it could be and it should be but it is not. But this is my background and I believe that we should celebrate the little victories. The problem is that now in the district that I work and my kids are being educated. They are learning that only if you are a person of color will you have the chance to advance in our soceity. Both of my kids that are still in K-12 have opted out of some activities as they know - no matter how good they are, because the are 'white' they are discounted already. I was able to keep them color blind till Jr Hi. - that was the best I could do. We still have wonderful friends that are not 'white' and will continue to enjoy their company and fellowship through the years to come.

Blessings -
.

Posted by: Moderatelad | February 11, 2008 4:18 PM

so long as this kind of article continues to be written, people will continue to believe there is a shortage of non-white leadership.

Well, it's true. Nothing you say will change that.

rick; "trying to strip people of their racial identity, and the experiences and history that goes with it, is ludicrous." does this apply to whites?

Yes, it does. Only that, in probably most places, whites pretty much run things without input from anyone else, and because of that lack of contact many of them see only their point of view and believe that everyone else's is somehow wrong and/or defective.

if randy, rick and payshun are uncomfortable maybe they have personal problems that don't apply to everyone. maybe their schedule for diversity and perfect integration is different than others. i may be naive but i think that people who profess to be christians try hard to be fair, understanding and compassionate.

Yes, you are naive -- and that condescending remark that we have "personal problems" is just what Randy's talking about. Thing is, apparently you don't want to adjust your views to accommodate others and that causes more problems than it solves. You can be "fair, understanding and compassionate" all you want but also ignorant all the while, and that causes friction. (The more mature believers will admit they need more education.)

Back in 2006 I wrote a sidebar about my church in ESA's magazine. In the main story the dean of a certain seminary could not attract black students, and the dean was asked if the curriculum included history of the African-American church. When the dean answered no, the person who asked said, in effect, "And you expect blacks to attend your seminary without accepting they have a history distinct from yours?"

Posted by: Rick Nowlin | February 11, 2008 4:34 PM

i should have said "personal experiences". sorry. your knowledge of how whites think always amazes me. "....probably most places..", "...whites pretty much.."

Having functionally lived in white society since the age of 10 and never even regularly attending a black church in that time, I trust that my observations are pretty accurate. (And that includes intimate friends and dating partners.)

Posted by: Rick Nowlin | February 11, 2008 5:11 PM

I was ten when Dr MLK was assassinated. I lived in a small all-white midwestern town. To me, that news was farther away than the Vietnam War. I often wondered how my parents/grandparents made sense out of segregation.

But then, I have white friends in Alabama who have been instrumental in racial reconciliation in their town. Growing up, they thought everything was just peachy until the Civil Rights organizing occurred in their town.

In regards to Randy's article, I am most saddened that after 40+ years of very public, broad consciousness-raising, that these institutions don't grasp the issue Randy is raising. That confuses me until I think about my Alabama friends or my growing up years. We have the capacity to live with huge planks in our eyes.

We so need the Body of Christ living in unity so as to hear each other and work out answers in relationship.

My top advice to any leader seeking to learn and change in this area (other than to say "yes" to the daily promptings of Christ's Spirit) is to anonymously put one's self in a submitted position to a leader (and community) of another culture. The North American church will continue to be crippled in our calling until we do so.

Posted by: letjusticerolldown | February 11, 2008 6:30 PM

"i may be naive but i think that people who profess to be christians try hard to be fair, understanding and compassionate."

Apparently you never visited a church in the South.

Posted by: I and I | February 11, 2008 4:06 PM"

I do live in the south and go to a PCA Presbyterian Church. I believe we would be considered by many as being evangelical conservatives. Having grown up down here I fully understand the dearth of ethnic diversity in the leadership positions in the southern church. However it is unfair to generalize when commenting about the church in the south. Our church,which is predominantly white, has a black pastor and a korean assistant pastor. We made an effort to find and recruit these men so that the church could be evenly represent the body of Christ. I would definitely say that we are an exception to the rule of churches in the south, but also an exception to churches throughout our nation. The vestiges of ethnic "purity" are present in the church for the most part, no matter what region of the country you live in.

Posted by: Greg | February 11, 2008 10:07 PM

Having had pastors from outside the US, white, black, old, and young... I find that color matters little to anyone under... 60.

Moderatelad describes an experience from his youth where "colorblind" existed, and it is immediately attacked as unreal. After all, how could he have known how his friend felt about being black?

My oldest son's best friend from middle school has no father he knows, and his mother is a raging alcoholic, with all the accompanying misery that affords. By his junior year in high school, we had decided that it was simply untenable, and we personally funded his entrance fee and some of his bill to attend a private boarding school some 3 hour's drive away, so as to remove him from his toxic mother and home environment.

His senior year, his mother attempted suicide, and a kind staff member drove him home while she was in the hospital. By the time she left the hospital, I was driving him back to school. Being self employed, I could make the time during the week.

On his way back to school, he was somewhat at a loss to speak his mind... Finally a few of his thoughts came out. He was struggling with the idea that if he were home, he might have prevented his mother's overdose. School work had piled up while he was gone. He didn't know what to do about college, but he wanted to go, and his senior year was just over half over.

Honestly, that's a huge burden for a 17 year old. He wasn't to blame for his mother's illness. She chose and still chooses to refuse any help drying out and staying dry. She officially hates Casey's friends, who are EMS and at his call, managed to save her life.

Finally, having vented on that, and listening to my responses, he seemed to become somewhat at ease. But I knew he was still burdened heavily.

That's a load of weight to carry. But he's not alone. C has a dozen families who consistently have befriended him and give him a shoulder to lean on and a place to vent.. Advice when he needs it, and sometiems even a little reproval when he gets a little too youthfully foolish.

He calls my wife "Mom". And we had the honor of being asked to be his family and recieve his flowers at his graduation ceremony.

The question I have is this... Are those enough burdens for anyone? There is noone on earth I would wish this upon growing up.

But I submit to you that his mother doesn't think that's enough. She endlessly rags on him that he can't succeed, he can't make it, he's going to fail, he's going to flunk college, he c an't get accepted, he won't get a job.. Because he's black. And that we all are standing in his way, giving him bad advice, and look down on him...because he's black.

Moderatlad's schoolmate didn't HAVE to carry around any burden. Maybe he didn't "feel black". He could simply have chosen not to let that be significant to him. Maybe it never even occurred to him.

I submit to you that Rick can't let go. He actively seeks to burden himself and carry around that emotional pain and depressive stress. He chooses to view the lives of everyone through the lense of race, and claims it isn't possible not to.

I don't know if anyone's ever made an issue of my young friend's race. Nobody I know has. Except his mother. I don't think it has ever been a disadvantage for him for ANYTHING he has ever done. I don't think a single moment of prejudice has denied him a single opportunity. He has gotten entrance to the school of his choice.

His career choice will not be significantly impacted by race.

So why should he carry that around?

I think that people like moderatelad's friend are the examples of what we should work towards. Not insist that it is unreal.

Posted by: mark | February 12, 2008 12:59 AM

Mark--If race were not at play in this family--would the mother stop tearing her child down??

Your question sort of begs more questions, but for the moment, let me just state...

His skin color is NOT REALLY A FACTOR in his life, external to his mother's continual efforts to instill in him racial angst and a built in excuse for failure to succeed. I don't think she wants him to, actually. It would be a tremendous contrast to her and her life...

Is "race at play in this family"? Only between the only two people in it. His younger brother was taken away by the authorities and sent off to live with his biological father - one who has not had or wanted anything to do with him previous to then. Child services decided that was better than where he was.

A friend of mine is just finishing his engineering degree in college. He has cerebral palsy (not severe), but has managed to overcome being a foster child until he was adopted around 12 years old by a white family... though he is technically...'black'.

So I have to ask... Is race any real factor in his life? No, it isn't.

Not really any more than say, someone who has to overcome having buck teeth or acne.

Fat kids, skinny kids, kids with acne on top of acne, or who are just plain considered "ugly". What of them? Are these obstacles in thier lives? Can they be larger obstacles than race?

It is my contention that the individual's unique situation has far more to do with what kind of obstacles they face. Can a black kid in the ghettos of Detroit face more prejudicial obstacles, than if he were in... say... Jackson, Wyoming?

Probably so. Years ago I befriended a starter of a yahoo list, a young girl living in the bowels of NYC. She was bright, educated, ambitious, and yet almost bereft of hope, because no matter what she did, everything around her went from bad to worse.

I suggested, advised, eventually begged her to leave, to go ANYWHERE but there. To leave the squelching confines of her cultural prison. To go to any one of a dozen places I had been and knew held opportunity for anyone willing, smart, educated, and bright like her. She had the money to leave in the bank.

She would not. She could not imagine that she wasn't just going to be a total victim of racism everywhere she went, and that I was just suggesting moving her away from her emotional support system - her fellow "ghetto-mates".

Her conditions and her uncomprehending view of the world around her was imprisoning her... Not the world around her.

Understanding people's self imposed limitations, as much as recognizing the real impediments a person has are of equal importance, at least.

Posted by: mark | February 12, 2008 4:10 AM

H-m-m-m.

Who created the prism of race???

Who placed it into language, philosophy, theology, religion, education, government and law? Who worked it into every contour of culture to the extent of defining how one might walk down the street, what one might look at, whether one might read, whether one might live or die, and whether one was human?

Who has maintained a cultural reality that ends up with almost all Christian white guys at the heads of their institutions?

I too long for persons to not be imprisoned by their own minds. but that also obligates me to consider how the idolatry of racism has shaped my own life and that which I steward.

My tongue speaks English. My mind thinks in English. There is no absolute divorce between my mind and the mind of the culture. All of this is to be brought under the Lordship of Jesus.

Randy's post does not ask Evangelical institutions to assume responsibility for the mind/attitudes/heart of one minority person. It asks they assume responsibility for the institutions they govern. White Evangelicals can accept the special assignment from God to be reconcilers--or continue to be the last ones to the table, sacrificing the very calling on our lives.

Posted by: letjusticerolldown | February 12, 2008 10:26 AM

"...flaws in his "argument", yes..." Jerry

Randy notes objectively that almost no Evangelical institutions are headed by minorities; and argues it would be helpful if more were.

What is flawed in that argument, Jerry?

Posted by: letjusticerolldown | February 12, 2008 11:27 AM

Greg: "I do live in the south and go to a PCA Presbyterian Church. I believe we would be considered by many as being evangelical conservatives. Having grown up down here I fully understand the dearth of ethnic diversity in the leadership positions in the southern church. However it is unfair to generalize when commenting about the church in the south. Our church,which is predominantly white, has a black pastor and a korean assistant pastor."

Greg, I appreciate your comments. I do want to note one thing and I don't mean to sound snarky. The PCA may be making headway in putting male minorities in the pulpit, but it prohibits women from serving as pastors. Not only that, it broke off communion with the denomination of a church I now attend, the CRC, when and because the CRC began allowing women pastors. Your church may not agree with that position--there were many CRC churches in my area in the 1980's that urged the denomination to allow women pastors but had to follow the policy until the prohibition was changed.

Posted by: I and I | February 12, 2008 1:35 PM

I've noticed that two of my posts were removed. What's up with that?

Posted by: Rick Nowlin | February 12, 2008 3:04 PM

let justice; what does almost no mean? 1%, 19%, 50%, 90%? the flaw is that it his opinion. there is no argument. good idea squeaky. carry confrontation and thoughts of slavery on forever. that way we can perpetuate racial feelings, differences etc on forever.
i notice that no one wants to address my comments about where i see integration. my post 2-11-08 at 4;01.

Posted by: jerry | February 12, 2008 8:01 PM

I should correct something too. he is not saying all white people in anything. he is saying there is a blind spot in American evangelical structure that doesn't include other people that look and think different.

Oh and I am so sick of the idea that us black folks can't let go. I am a living survivor of genocide and destruction. That should not be glossed over. Would you ask a Jewish person to forgot the Holocaust or a Japanese person the Manchurian rape/ and mass murder or a Sudanese woman about the death and rape and genocide of her people? No of course not but us black people oh yah it's time to turn the page, move on forget that 40 years ago we could not vote or live in areas of our choice.

I hold no malice toward the white man that tried to shoot me because I was black or the people that would stare at me because I walked down the street or... I forgave them all but I am not foolish enough to forget what happened but I am brave enough to love my enemies. That's what Jesus requires of all of us.

It is dehumanizing to ignore the brutality of our country's history. Many folks have been trying to do that for centuries. The only way this country will heal from it's racist past is to look and describe it in total detail and do justice for it's descendants, whatever that means. It's the only way. There is no other but then this country has never been good at dealing w/ it's former slave population or it's own genocide w/ the Indian population.

One way we can call for justice for the Sioux and others is to call for the return of the Black Hawk Mountains and other lands stolen. That's a good place to start.

p

Posted by: Payshun | February 12, 2008 11:15 PM

It would be helpful to remember the immortal worlds of William Faulkner, who as a Southerner would have understood the whole concept: "The past is never dead. It isn't even past."

Posted by: Rick Nowlin | February 13, 2008 7:57 AM

"The PCA may be making headway in putting male minorities in the pulpit, but it prohibits women from serving as pastors."

I and I,
As you say, the PCA does not allow women as pastors or ruling elders. My understanding of the principle (I grew up southern baptist, so I am not extremely well versed in PCA doctrine) is not rooted in a belief that women are unsuited or incapable of leadership roles in the church. The opposite is fully and completely embraced. The root of the matter is the belief that if women where allowed to be the teaching elder or ruling elder, that men are lazy enough to complete relinquish their roles in the church. Admittedly in the 50's the suppression of women's roles was ingrained in the culture more thoroughly and the church accepted this whole heartedly. Women fulfill many vital and important roles in the PCA and in many instances would make much better leaders than many of the men I have known in the church. Yet the women that I have questioned about this issue are not offended by this restriction. But as Rick stated this is the situation in many,many of the conservative evangelical churches.
Also, I understand that the changes the PCA made in breaking off from the PC-USA was due to the change in the view the PC-USA had about the inerrancy and infallibilty of the scripture, not anything to due with women's ordination.

Posted by: Greg | February 13, 2008 11:12 AM

Greg, thanks for the info on the PCA and the women-pastors issue. I couldn't remember the name of the affiliation that the CRC was kicked out of following their move in the 90's to allow women pastors, but it was NAPARC (North American Presbyterian and Reformed Council). The whole affair was disappointing because it indicated that not only were the denominations adamant in continuing their own prohibitions, but they were willing to break off formal relations with those denominations who changed their policy. Of course, the PCA may have played less of a role in that than some of the far more conservative denominations.

Posted by: I and I | February 13, 2008 1:24 PM

the issues of race and immigration are foremost in the minds of voters this year. thank you ladies and gentlemen for the discussion. i hope you get what you hope for.

Posted by: jerry | February 13, 2008 3:04 PM

""carry confrontation and thoughts of slavery on forever. that way we can perpetuate racial feelings, differences etc on forever. "

Where did I say that? I said we need to DEAL with the issue. Not just say "it's over. Forget about it." You seem to be unwilling to acknowledge, admit, or recognize the profound impact racial injustice has had in our nation and continues to have in our nation."

Squeaky,

In following the threads above, I get the feeling that various participants believe that racial injustice is a thing of the past in the church. I apparently am going to contradict some of the things I said back on 2/11/08 @ 10:01. While I really believe that the younger generations as a whole are becoming more "colorblind", the racial polarization is definitely not gone from either the church or the secular world.
I am a white male in Mississippi whose father, grandfather and probably (most) many other of my past family generations where or are virulently rascist. Every time I see or hear comments made regarding someone strictly due to their ethnic background I am sickened and wracked with guilt due to the allowances I have made in the past for relatives and associates to perpetuate these issues. My children go to a christian school that is racially mixed. The families who started the school began with the premise that they would ensure that this was not another "white flight" mississippi private school, but that it would represent all of God's family. The children from 7th - 12th grades appear to be fulfulling this desire admireably. We play athletics in a private school organization, and our teams are frequently assaulted with racial prejoratives during the games. So this supposed "color-blind" generation is not. They are still being taught the prejudices and hates that I was as a child and will probably continue to perpetuate these to their children.
It will take many generations for our society to truly progress to the point where we are truly beyond the racial issues we face now.
Having said all of that I also know many people who attend "mainline" evangelical churches who would stand and leave a service if a minority was announced as being in leadership. The comment of "they want everything that is ours" being heard as they walked out the door. The church that belongs to Christ needs to understand that the cleansing blood of Christ removes all sin and makes all of us his children. Why would a parent want to leave one of his children in the back of the church just because he was a little different from the other kids?
The nation, and particularly the south has come a great distance from 40 years ago. However, we have an equally great distance to go. Christian church should be at the forefront of these changes, not brought kicking and screaming up at the rear.
I am filled with grief about the way the church has treated my brothers and sisters in Christ. I ask for forgiveness for the way my ancestors and my race have treated non-white people. I cannot change the past but I can be part of assuring that the future does not allow the reoccurence of these actions.

Posted by: Greg | February 13, 2008 3:50 PM

I think white guilt is o.k. We are used to hearing from our pop-psych culture that guilt is bad. But after reading Shelby Steele's new book "A Bound Man" I have come to understand white guilt a little more, and no longer go on the knee-jerk defensive when being "accused" of it by someone of a more conservative viewpoint.

Let's hear it for white guilt. Sure as heck beats white apathy or white racism. Better to err on the side of overcompensation for past injustice than on the side of injustice.

Posted by: I and I | February 14, 2008 8:56 AM

... and no longer go on the knee-jerk defensive when being "accused" of it by someone of a more conservative viewpoint.

In my experience, however, it's the conservatives who are running away from their association with racism, especially the institutional kind. A couple of weeks ago I had a tiff with a co-worker, a conservative columnist who wrote that "Democrats" (i. e. liberals) fought the civil-rights movement while Republicans ("conservatives") supported it, completely misrepresenting the views of a nationally-syndicated columnist who mentioned that conservatives opposed black progress up and down the line. When I confronted her about it, she had a hissy fit, accusing me of "not getting over it." You can't talk to people like that.

Posted by: Rick Nowlin | February 15, 2008 5:03 PM

Rick Nowlin says:

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I'm not dogmatic about this, but I have experienced churches that do ordain women and those that don't, and I have found that I as a man get more respect from women in churches that don't.

Since when is church about you getting respect?

Posted by: p | February 18, 2008 11:18 AM