I think the Church in the US has a great opportunity here to lead the way in racial reconciliation. It might be a good idea to start off with joint services of churches that don't worship together from all ethnic backgrounds.

Posted by: Will | March 20, 2008 1:46 PM

My question is this, what is the evidence of institutional racism in this country? Not that I don't doubt that racism exists but rather that the issue of race is one of the heart of the individual.

Posted by: Sam | March 20, 2008 3:30 PM

sam
talk to anyone of color about racial profiling.

Look up
"A Multiracial Society with Segregated Schools: Are We Losing the Dream?"

or,

" Still Separate, Still Unequal:"
America's Educational Apartheid
JONATHAN KOZOL / Harper's Magazine v.311, n.1864 1sep2005

Posted by: wayne | March 20, 2008 4:37 PM

The mixed group idea is one warranting further action. I like the idea of black and white church members visiting one another, but I think that EVERY SINGLE MAINSTREAM CHRISTIAN DENOMINATION in this country ought to band together to form "mixed groups" of blacks and white for discussion, friendship, and fellowship. It doesn't have to be limited even to Christian groups....groups of all faiths should adopt such a plan.
I recently spent a weekend volunteering for Barack Obama's campaign in Ohio, and realized sadly at the end of the weekend how much I had enjoyed the trip, in large part because of the diverse nature of the other volunteers...young, old, black, white....all very interesting and involved people. (I'm a white middle aged mom).
I am sad to say I cannot remember the last time I spent any great deal of time talking to a black person. Since I no longer work and my kids attend primarily white schools, it just doesn't happen. My hairdresser is black and that's about it. I left the experience feeling that if Barack Obama does nothing else in his life than make people start talking about race and its implications for our society, he will have done something of the utmost importance.
Any church leaders our there reading this? Why don't the mainstream denominations get together and start programs like supper clubs, where members from black and white churches meet monthly? We cannot continue to ignore this issue. We are still two Americas, and the ending of the Civil War, the passing of Civil Rights laws and all other efforts haven't changed a thing. We need to KNOW EACH OTHER, on a personal level.

Posted by: connie | March 20, 2008 4:51 PM

Brian asks:

"How do you see yourself and your life in the context of “the long march” toward “a more perfect union?” Have you ever actively worked for positive change in America? Who are your heroes in this “long march,” and why?"

I grew up in the South during the latter years of the Civil Rights movement, and for me, this was quite simply the formative experience in my understanding of good and evil in the world. My (white) family deliberately sat in the back of the bus, drove across town to patronize businesses that had integrated, and generally made nuisances of ourselves in what I hope were positive ways.

I very much had the sense, though, that it was us (those of all races who could see past skin color) vs. them (those whites who couldn't - remember I was only 6 or 7). My parents were my heroes in this regard, and they very much taught me to think that there were two kinds of people in the world - bad (or at best unenlightened) people and those who thought as we did.

Those kinds of impressions stay with you. I still live in the South, and the people who used to make anonymous phone calls to denounce us as "n----- lovers" are now voting Republican. I'm older and wiser now, but it is still very hard for me to get around that elemental fact.

Posted by: Another nonymous | March 20, 2008 5:23 PM

I had come to a point in my own life that I was no longer expecting to be moved or inspired by any leadership in this country. Just reading the speech moved me to tears. I didn't think I'd ever hear a politician dive into the core of the matter as Obama did. Until we can recognize that we all carry this burden, we will be unable to put it down.I agree that getting folks together is a terrific solution. It is the only way to begin to see people as individuals instead of under the umbrella of a group-whatever that group may be. This is the way to approach what at a fundamental level is fear of the unknown.

Posted by: Karen | March 20, 2008 5:30 PM

Barack referred to me today as a "typical white person" when he talked about his white grandmother's reaction when approached by blacks on the street. Having been mugged three times in my life, twice by black groups and once by a black man with a gun, I would be foolish not to have my guard up should the situation happen again. But honestly I'm willing to give Obama a chance to change my attitude should he be elected, while at the same time hoping blacks change theirs by joining with white America to make it a true UNITED States. I recognize the history of slavery and racism that has exited in our country for so long, but almost every decent-thinking white person I know wants blacks to be equal in every way with us and other ethnic group in this country who have overcome rough starts mostly just by doing the right thing of working hard, getting a good education, and having a strong family system in place. Stereotypes happen for a reason, and the large percentage of blacks behaving badly must be willing to break free of this stereotypical behavior to join in with others who've enjoyed living in the most prosperous nation on earth if prejudice ever has a hope of ending in this country. I guarantee that most whites will come to accept the black person as just any other person, but first you've got to get the chip off your shoulders, quit thinking of yourselves first as African Americans and change to just thinking of yourself as regular Americans. Right now,I'm leaning toward voting for Barack just so this hope of mine has a chance to happen in my lifetime.

Posted by: Cads | March 20, 2008 7:24 PM

I guarantee that most whites will come to accept the black person as just any other person, but first you've got to get the chip off your shoulders, quit thinking of yourselves first as African Americans and change to just thinking of yourself as regular Americans. Right now, I'm leaning toward voting for Barack just so this hope of mine has a chance to happen in my lifetime.

My experience above should dispel that notion because I had done just that.

Posted by: Rick Nowlin | March 20, 2008 7:46 PM

The post would provide great fodder for a discussion group, and would be particularly rich if that group was diverse. It's really not possible to fully engage with it in this format.

There was a lot of excellent analysis in Obama's speech and many perceptive comments. I have had more opportunity than most Americans to get a quite different view of the black, and more generally minority, experience in America. Many whites don't really have much of a clue because they have been too isolated from the black experience to have any real understanding. Obama clearly tried to speak in a way that he could be heard by this audience, and I hope it helped.

There's a tension between white racism being endemic and things having improved. I don't think Obama got that quite right, although he would have been close without a small part of the speech that was unnecessarily harsh as to Jeremiah Wright's expressions and overall attitude - something he probably felt was politically necessary to do.

Actually I do feel Obama did explain effects of endemic racism which are continuing. But then there is the jarring attack on Wright calling racism endemic. Obama is right that there has been improvement, but white racism still has such pervasive effects in American society that it is correctly called endemic.

The second thing in the harsh criticism of Wright's statements that bothered me is what could actually be considered a bigoted comment by Obama. And I really doubt he believes it; I think he just made the remark for political reasons. That was the statement about the Middle East which seemed to say that all the problems there were due to "radical Islam" and seemed to completely absolve the state of Israel.

This was quite jarring because it is a sentence that really has almost no relation to the rest of the speech, and because it was the only really one-sided remark in the speech. It was a notable departure from the carefully balanced way of presenting the issues that otherwise pervaded the speech. The remark really needs to be condemned because it is so obviously wrong, and sets a very dangerously false framework for considering such a key world issue. Would Obama, if elected President, act based on that framework? If so, that alone would be more than adequate reason not to vote for him. The Middle East is a tinderbox and we don't need someone fanning the flames in the White House. The attitude expressed in that sentence would result in more conflict in the Middle East and a greatly increased risk of terrorism here.

Posted by: Bill Samuel | March 20, 2008 8:12 PM

Fine Payshun, you're right, I'll join you and "that's how it's going to go down." - And I mean WAY down. I am so frustrated and pissed off with that kind of attitude. African Americans as a group will continue to be discriminated against forever if you insist that whites adapt to black culture. This country has prospered because of white Europeans and their decendents (and those ethnic groups, including numerous blacks and Asians) who have adapted to the highly successful free enterprise system; not because of blacks who cling to their slave past. If you refuse to join the party and cling to your African American and black ways, there's no hope for you to ever be included in the "melting pot" that is America. "To be honest", as you insist, by you adapting to "white culture", even in a small way, you're a hell of a lot better off than your black brothers in Africa. I guess there really is no hope when a well-educated man such as yourself refuses to want to be a true part of what America really is. It can happen, but not by focusing and keeping alive the white-man's sins of the past. I'm sorry for the beliefs and actions of American Caucasions in the past, but you've got to get over it and accept our apology. Let bygones be bygones and let's all move forward - PLEASE!!! And just one question - specifically, what do you want whites to do to adapt to your culture? Point something out that will make me a beter citizen and I'll certainly consider it.

Posted by: Cads | March 21, 2008 12:13 AM

"I was NOT moved by Obama's speech and I'm really tired of the superior attitude of those who think it was the greatest speech since the English language was invented."

It's not a superior attitude. It's just that he's their guy, and when your guy makes a speech, your going to like it because he will remind you of why he is your guy.

Posted by: kevin s. | March 21, 2008 1:15 AM

"Fine Payshun, you're right, I'll join you and "that's how it's going to go down." - And I mean WAY down. I am so frustrated and pissed off with that kind of attitude. African Americans as a group will continue to be discriminated against forever if you insist that whites adapt to black culture."

It doesn't matter if we adapt or not racism in white culture will still be there. That's why I want you to follow into black culture that way you can see it and kill it. That's why Booker T Washington was materially successful but morally bankrupt. The free enterprise system is corrupt and you know it. You know it is and was designed to be unfair. Worshiping greed at the expense of love is not something I would think Jesus would want. But what do I know I only read the gospels

Talk about attitude, well we will get to that.

"To be honest", as you insist, by you adapting to "white culture", even in a small way, you're a hell of a lot better off than your black brothers in Africa."

WTF, no seriously do you understand the words that are coming out of your keyboard? My black brothers are your black brothers. If you don't understand the common humanity of us all then we are all screwed.

As for things you can learn, lets start with learning about the culture. Instead of thinking what you see in popular American culture start by reading a few books. It's simple plus it will make you smarter. But you need understand what my culture is really about, not the greed and booty shaking you see in the videos. THat's the minstrel show. The real culture, the real power is in jazz, tap, underground hip hop, great friend chicken. It's longsuffering, worship, empowerment and the ability to overcome. If you knew anything about Africa you would know that.

p

Posted by: Payshun | March 21, 2008 2:56 AM

Cads,
in any unequal power relationship is there is to be unity and reconciliation then those who have the power have to lower themselves to those without. In any unequal power relationship.

Those below simply cannot make it happen. This is true between nations, between races, between friends and in families. It is true everywhere.

It's also the core element of the Christian message. Jesus came down to us so we could be united with him. There simply is no other way.

Be Blessed,

Posted by: Trent | March 21, 2008 8:43 AM

What McLaren (and Obama) are talking about is listening - really listening. This is what we all need to do - listen to each other.

Posted by: John Mustol | March 21, 2008 9:50 AM

Cads--If I recited all the bad experiences I have had with Black people--the stereotypes would all be reinforced. You are right.

And if I recited all the bad experiences I have had with White people--you would think they were the stereotypical black people.

Strangely, I don't classify my bad experiences with White people as bad experiences with White people. I have other categories: alcoholics, idiots, etc.

Of course, I can also say I've lived in allegedly the worst African American community in my state for decades and never been hurt. I've encountered wonderful grace even from some persons with bitter, bitter life experiences. I've watched a community embrace peoples of the world that respectable neighborhoods don't want: people fleeing torture, war, famine, ethnic cleansing, poverty, and outcasts from small Christian towns. I've experienced hope, genius, creativity, beauty, a richer faith, and love.

The only time most white people feel submitted to the black world (i.e. the time we no longer feel in control, where our white status guarantees our comfort and status) is when we feel violated. We respond, "That is black. Stereotypes happen for a reason......"

I notice white people had great genius in finding ways to create a complex racist system—even when it became illegal. I notice there were white people more than willing to pit poor whites against poor blacks and immigrants. And when it comes to dismantling such a system—we become helpless. My kids create a huge mess in their playroom and then contend themselves unable to put things away.

Thankfully they’ve never had the audacity to scream at me and tell me to get over it.

Please ask God for the spirit of power, love and a sound mind scripture indicates he has given.

Come to Montgomery AL two weeks from today for 12 hrs of prayer/fasting on the 40th anniversary of Dr King’s assassination www.thec all.org . I’d be happy to meet you and show you around. runwiththechariots@ya hoo.com

Posted by: letjusticerolldown | March 21, 2008 11:53 AM

Donnie McClurkin is not a homophobe. He chose to not live a life as a gay man. Nowhere did Obama say and endorse that Donnie's choice should be for the gay community. Donnie McClurkin is a popular gospel singer in the black community. People love his voice. He has a strong witness that speaks to grace in God without restrictions, I would think that you could celebrate that without agreeing with how he practices his sexuality. I think that would make you hypocritical if you did not. We should be able to include all people in the discussion about this without merely turning it into something it's not.

His comments were not ageist either. That's silly. They were insensitive and predicated on a generation gap. But in no way did he imply that she was inferior because of it. She was just wrong and she was. Being afraid of black men as she walked down the street is wrong unless you have a good reason to be.

Why is it you always have to turn an issue that doesn't address homosexuality into something that does? Try leaving it aside and standing with your black brothers and sisters a little bit. I have done the same thing for you for weeks. I am the only one here that has defended gay marriage and equal rights for all. But its like you just completely ignore that and I think that sucks.

p

Posted by: Payshun | March 21, 2008 12:34 PM

In the hope of expanding the dialogue fostered by Brian McLaren, I highly recommend listening to an example of the preaching of Jeremiah Wright, in his sermon on "The Audacity to Hope". Let's all listen to a complete sermon and then restart our dialogue. The URL is:
http://mp3.christianity.com/mp3/mp3repos32/MMYSEES/317_60682_JeremiahWright__TheAudacitytoHope82A.32.mp3

The sermon is an exegesis of the story in I. Samuel chapters 1-2 of Hannah's seemingly hopeless prayer for a son and God's answer. It is insightful, and offers hope to all of us, regardless of our circumstance or political persuasion. After hearing the sermon, we might ask whether Rev. Wright perhaps indeed has something of value to offer to parishioners like Barack Obama and even ourselves.

The sermon is well-suited for Good Friday.

Blessings to all!

Posted by: Jim | March 21, 2008 3:18 PM

Payshun,
I'll preface my question to you by saying I certainly do not have Cads' attitude on this subject. I'm definitely not taking his “side”. I'm sincerely interested, however, what you mean by the question "have you adapted to my culture?"

What aspect of black culture would you like to see whites or people of other races adopt? Are there aspects of black culture that are unique that other races should adopt?

Again, I'm not asking this because I don't think there are any. I'm asking because I'm genuinely interested.

Posted by: Eric | March 21, 2008 3:42 PM

Sam;

You ask 'My question is this, what is the evidence of institutional racism in this country? Not that I don't doubt that racism exists but rather that the issue of race is one of the heart of the individual.'

John tells us that we the Church have three enemies, the world, the flesh, and the devil. I've always felt that while my own flesh is more than enough enemy for me, there's an aggregate of everybody's selfs that makes up the world.

So there's racism in my heart, and there's an aggregate racism that's institutional. Some of it's incidental, but some of it's deliberate…

Posted by: Ted Voth Jr | March 21, 2008 8:13 PM

Ted Voth Jr. wrote: "John tells us that we the Church have three enemies, the world, the flesh, and the devil."

The Indian monk Siddhartha Gautama, who lived around 500 BCE and became known as The Buddha, said that three fetters bind us to suffering: ignorance, greed and hatred.

Just thought I'd mention.

Posted by: SecularAnimist | March 21, 2008 8:40 PM

My goodness. I'm watching Fox and right now former Sen Bill Bradley has condemned Wright--saying his remarks are "outrageious" Another cowardly white guy betraying a black prophet. Lord Help us.Thank God for Sojourners

Posted by: LMADDOX | March 21, 2008 9:27 PM

The "blame-America-first crowd" that pretty much "is" Sojourners and most of its followers, is always crying for perfect equality throughout the world through bringing the "haves" down to what I consider to be an unacceptable level.

Out of bounds, Cads -- you make it sound as if you're entitled to what you have instead of recognizing it as a gift from God to execute His bidding. And He's not putting up with that anymore. I hate to keep saying this but apparently I have to: It's not at all about economic redistribution but whether people on the bottom have the reasonable opportunity to run their own lives without having to depend on handouts of any kind. Why won't you see that?

Posted by: Rick Nowlin | March 22, 2008 8:24 AM

As I sit here listening to Sade I am reminded of sitting with God in this easter Saturday. I am reminded that in order for me to fully take in what Christ did I too must die with him in his death. It is a place I seldom like to go but with all myths of death and rebirth this must be completed. I praise God for this Saturday for today I take part in his rest after the crucification. Praise God.

Now back to the comments.

"Response: Unfair sure, corrupt sometimes, but what system works better? Our poor are so much better off materialistically than almost all people throughout the world, so the system must somehow work. You sir, would prefer socialism where everyone is basically equal. Unfortunately, it's never been successful."

See and this is what happens when you live in a fantasy world. It has always been corrupt and you know it. It was never and I do mean never designed to be just and you know it. I can sit back and recite history to back this point up if I need to.

Your question about what system would work better is a red herring. No system works great and our poor in the cities are somewhat better off depending on where you live but there are plenty of places within the United States where the poor live like they would in parts of South America, Asia, Europe and Africa. So please stop talking from conservative talking points and see where real poverty lies in our culture. It's there you just have to look.

Cads,

And this is why I say you are a fool. I am an entrepreneur, I am in the middle of planning and starting my own business. I am a greedy capitalist just like most of the people on this blog. But unlike many business folks I want to use just and humane labor practices that Ben & Jerry and others use. The only difference is that I do see some Marxist and socialist ideals being good and revealing more of Christ than not. So please stop assuming that you know me and know what I would prefer when you don't. That doesn't mean I want capitalism completely destroyed but I am not going to pretend its better than it is. That's your job.

"Response: To this I agree. I only want the best for my brothers and sisters, which is why I want everyone to join the capitalist system that brings prosperity to the greatest number of people."

I am going to say this and it won't really be nice. I won't apologize for it but I doubt it will hurt your feelings. Stop lying. You are not the least bit interested in helping black people whether they are children of the Diaspora (Americans, Dominicans, Brazilians...) or people from the mainland of Africa. Your earlier posts suggest that we have to follow Europe and America's white example to excel.

If you were interested in empowering black people you would be for them to find their own way and supporting that but your not. So maybe you might want to ditch the racist and false idea that Europe and by extension America is better.

America is spiritually bankrupt and has a poverty of spirit that is greater than almost anywhere on the planet. Yet somehow you equate money with being rich. Being rich is much greater than wealth. You should know that.

Which leads me to answer Eric's question.

Here are some unique attributes God has gifted his African and by extension his black and brown children. One such gift is the gift of worship. It is a celebration and has deep, powerful and primal elements of African culture. They are the way we connect to God. There is something powerful that Europeans and Americans can learn by watching and adapting black worship patterns without loosing themselves or their culture in the process.

Prayer is another gift. I don't know if you all have ever had the unique opportunity to sit in a room full of black men or women and pray with them but it's powerful and speaks of the great and powerful and unique expression of communicating with God. If you ever get the chance to pray with Nigerian and Ghanaian people do it. You will be there for hours, maybe days but in the end you will see God's face and every believer should want that.

There is a lot more but I have to go.

p

Posted by: Payshun | March 22, 2008 12:51 PM

Gee Payshun, as I sit here listening to The Platters Anthology, I note that I referred to you as "sir" and you then you called me a "fool". Really nice. Now you've caused me to break my weekend vow of silence since no one calls me a fool without me responding.

P: "Your question about what system would work better is a red herring."

How am I diverting attention from the real problem by claiming there's never been a better system ever developed than capitalism? Corrupt as it may be, you fail to come up with an alternative that would be better.

P: "Stop lying. You are not the least bit interested in helping black people - If you were interested in empowering black people you would be for them to find their own way and supporting that but your not."

A liar and a fool in the same post! Thanks so much for the compliments. Now it's my turn to say YOU know nothing about me and my past and present actions. I'm financially involved in my daughter's two coffee shops and we try to hire as many qualified black employees as we can. We pay $1 more per hour than like businesses in the area and get a more dependable employee base because of this. One of her black employees had little life skill experience when he was first hired, having grown up abused and pretty much alone. His biological father with the same name had used his SS# to ruin his credit and made it impossible for him to get an apartment. We hired him anyway because he was really personable and appeared to be sincere about wanting to succeed. After just a while of dependable, on-time performance, we helped him get his own apartment by making guarantees with the landlord and then gave him bedding and furniture so that he could attempt to start his life anew. I'm happy to say he's developed into one of her most dependable and appreciative employees. He now has a growing savings account, a decent place to live and is being considered for the assistant manager position at one of her shops.

Several years ago, we took an interest in this kid with polio from Somalia. We were able to help with his wheelchair expenses and other miscellaneous items while he attended high school and then college. With his pleasant attitude and hard work ethic, it was no wonder he graduated from college and is now gainfully employed. I just wanted to point out two instances where black people were helped because of my actions so that you might realize I'm not the monster you think I am. I'm all for helping people who want to help themselves and always will be.

Now to address Rick:

I AM entitled to what I have because my wife and I both worked hard for 30 years and made the correct life choices needed to get ahead. God's gift was giving us life and brains with which to think, but WE made it happen by saving and investing wisely instead of wasting money on smoking or buying the latest gadget that we didn't really need. It's amazing how much one can accumulate by being frugal, keeping the original spouse, not overreproducing and having both spouses contributing to the family income stream! What always amazes me about poor people is that no matter how poor they become, they always seem to have cigarette money!

You add: "It's not at all about economic redistribution but whether people on the bottom have the reasonable opportunity to run their own lives without having to depend on handouts of any kind."

I maintain that opportunities exist to all in America if the right choices are made. My niece graduated from a 90% black enrollment high school and was constantly threatened by blacks simply because she did her homework and studied hard. They told her to watch her back, because she was ruining the "curve" for everyone else. Now what kind of crap is that? I can only assume that this is not an isolated instance in our education system. Where is the parental guidance needed to keep this from happening? With this kind of attitude, handouts will be the only way that many will be able to survive if people refuse to grasp the opportunities that are available. "Do The Right Thing" was a great Spike Lee movie title that applies so well to today's world. By doing the right thing, all things are possible, but proper attitude is required first.

Posted by: Cads | March 22, 2008 3:22 PM

I, too, have been both inspired by Obama's speech and frustrated with the resulting criticisms. I think this speech could really help our rhetoric move towards a plane of more harmonious integration, and I am really interested to see where Obama's ideas of integration and reconciliation lead him in the pressing areas of immigration reform. For more the application of Obama's speech to issues of immigration, please visit my blog at: http://smartborders.wordpress.com

Posted by: Matthew Webster | March 22, 2008 7:14 PM

"When I got to college, I learned otherwise. "

Aren't you a prominent journalist? You have succeeded in one of the very most competitive professions.

Posted by: kevin s. | March 23, 2008 12:23 AM

"Just as black anger often proved counterproductive, so have these white resentments distracted attention from the real culprits of the middle class squeeze – a corporate culture rife with inside dealing, questionable accounting practices, and short-term greed....

This is where we are right now. It’s a racial stalemate we’ve been stuck in for years.

For the African-American community, that path (Out of poverty) means embracing the burdens of our past without becoming victims of our past. It means continuing to insist on a full measure of justice in every aspect of American life. But it also means binding our particular grievances – for better health care, and better schools, and better jobs - to the larger aspirations of all Americans -- the white woman struggling to break the glass ceiling, the white man who's been laid off, the immigrant trying to feed his family. And it means taking full responsibility for own lives – by demanding more from our fathers, and spending more time with our children, and reading to them, and teaching them that while they may face challenges and discrimination in their own lives, they must never succumb to despair or cynicism; they must always believe that they can write their own destiny."

Cads, Rick, and Kevin.
You all are exemplifying Barak Obama's speech.
You are living examples of what he described.

Posted by: Wayne | March 23, 2008 9:23 AM

Payshun wrote: "The free enterprise system is corrupt and you know it. You know it is and was designed to be unfair."

Cads replied: "Unfair sure, corrupt sometimes, but what system works better? Our poor are so much better off materialistically than almost all people throughout the world, so the system must somehow work."

Cads, you are mistaken. First of all, Western European systems which have "mixed economies", and a lot more "socialist" interventions than the USA, work demonstrably "better" by any objective measure of human well-being than the USA's system does. Health care is but one example: developed countries like Canada, the UK, France, Germany etc. that have some form of government-run, single-payer nonprofit health insurance under public administration have better health outcomes for a greater number of people at lower cost, than the for-profit US health insurance system.

Second, it is simply not true that poor people in the US are "so much better off materialistically than almost all people throughout the world". Other developed -- and more socialist -- countries have lower poverty rates than the USA, and many poor people in the USA would be considered poor almost anywhere in the world. Sure, they may not be as poor as people living in utter poverty and famine in sub-Saharan Africa, but what kind of standard is that for the richest and most powerful nation on Earth to hold itself to?

With regard to Payshun's comment -- the so-called "free market system" may well be inherently unfair, or perhaps not. That depends on your idea of "fairness". However, the actual system that exists in the USA today is most certainly "corrupt" in the literal sense that it is afflicted with high levels of crime -- and I'm talking about high-level, white collar, corporate crime, like Enron.

It seems to me that those who are strong supporters of the "free market" are the ones who should be shouting the loudest about corporate crime, since it violates the basic principles that the "free market" system is supposed to be built on.

Posted by: SecularAnimist | March 23, 2008 3:26 PM

Kevin
If immigrant poor or minority populations are worse off in say, France, would that make our situation okay?
By the way those I know have varied stories of both acceptance and discrimination. That is part and parcel of the life of an immigrant. Why is that? Is it because our system is better than others and so we do not need to talk about it?

Why not just talk about the wrongs here, talk about how we can take the good ideas and make them better, admit to the history in more than just an "I didn't do it", or, because of the history I cannot do it fashion?
All of that is the essence of Senator Obama's speech. The only reason to not like that speech would be because you do not want to admit the reasonableness of it.

Posted by: wayne | March 23, 2008 7:14 PM

LJR,

I could feel the love you still have for your departed lady. She must have been a truly fine person. You have my sympathy for your devastating loss.

Secular,

I would sure like to visit the site used to come to your conclusion that I am mistaken.

Posted by: Cads | March 23, 2008 11:42 PM

"the best single speech I have heard from any American politician in my lifetime"

I mean, are you kidding?

How about this one;

Address to a Joint Session of Congress and the American People
United States Capitol
Washington, D.C.

September 20, 2001 9:00 P.M. EDT

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Speaker, Mr. President Pro Tempore, members of Congress, and fellow Americans:

In the normal course of events, Presidents come to this chamber to report on the state of the Union. Tonight, no such report is needed. It has already been delivered by the American people.

We have seen it in the courage of passengers, who rushed terrorists to save others on the ground -- passengers like an exceptional man named Todd Beamer. And would you please help me to welcome his wife, Lisa Beamer, here tonight. (Applause.)

We have seen the state of our Union in the endurance of rescuers, working past exhaustion. We have seen the unfurling of flags, the lighting of candles, the giving of blood, the saying of prayers -- in English, Hebrew, and Arabic. We have seen the decency of a loving and giving people who have made the grief of strangers their own.

My fellow citizens, for the last nine days, the entire world has seen for itself the state of our Union -- and it is strong. (Applause.)

Tonight we are a country awakened to danger and called to defend freedom. Our grief has turned to anger, and anger to resolution. Whether we bring our enemies to justice, or bring justice to our enemies, justice will be done. (Applause.)

I thank the Congress for its leadership at such an important time. All of America was touched on the evening of the tragedy to see Republicans and Democrats joined together on the steps of this Capitol, singing "God Bless America." And you did more than sing; you acted, by delivering $40 billion to rebuild our communities and meet the needs of our military.

Speaker Hastert, Minority Leader Gephardt, Majority Leader Daschle and Senator Lott, I thank you for your friendship, for your leadership and for your service to our country. (Applause.)

And on behalf of the American people, I thank the world for its outpouring of support. America will never forget the sounds of our National Anthem playing at Buckingham Palace, on the streets of Paris, and at Berlin's Brandenburg Gate.

We will not forget South Korean children gathering to pray outside our embassy in Seoul, or the prayers of sympathy offered at a mosque in Cairo. We will not forget moments of silence and days of mourning in Australia and Africa and Latin America.

Nor will we forget the citizens of 80 other nations who died with our own: dozens of Pakistanis; more than 130 Israelis; more than 250 citizens of India; men and women from El Salvador, Iran, Mexico and Japan; and hundreds of British citizens. America has no truer friend than Great Britain. (Applause.) Once again, we are joined together in a great cause -- so honored the British Prime Minister has crossed an ocean to show his unity of purpose with America. Thank you for coming, friend. (Applause.)

On September the 11th, enemies of freedom committed an act of war against our country. Americans have known wars -- but for the past 136 years, they have been wars on foreign soil, except for one Sunday in 1941. Americans have known the casualties of war -- but not at the center of a great city on a peaceful morning. Americans have known surprise attacks -- but never before on thousands of civilians. All of this was brought upon us in a single day -- and night fell on a different world, a world where freedom itself is under attack.

Americans have many questions tonight. Americans are asking: Who attacked our country? The evidence we have gathered all points to a collection of loosely affiliated terrorist organizations known as al Qaeda. They are the same murderers indicted for bombing American embassies in Tanzania and Kenya, and responsible for bombing the USS Cole.

Al Qaeda is to terror what the mafia is to crime. But its goal is not making money; its goal is remaking the world -- and imposing its radical beliefs on people everywhere.

The terrorists practice a fringe form of Islamic extremism that has been rejected by Muslim scholars and the vast majority of Muslim clerics -- a fringe movement that perverts the peaceful teachings of Islam. The terrorists' directive commands them to kill Christians and Jews, to kill all Americans, and make no distinction among military and civilians, including women and children.

This group and its leader -- a person named Osama bin Laden -- are linked to many other organizations in different countries, including the Egyptian Islamic Jihad and the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan. There are thousands of these terrorists in more than 60 countries. They are recruited from their own nations and neighborhoods and brought to camps in places like Afghanistan, where they are trained in the tactics of terror. They are sent back to their homes or sent to hide in countries around the world to plot evil and destruction.

The leadership of al Qaeda has great influence in Afghanistan and supports the Taliban regime in controlling most of that country. In Afghanistan, we see al Qaeda's vision for the world.

Afghanistan's people have been brutalized -- many are starving and many have fled. Women are not allowed to attend school. You can be jailed for owning a television. Religion can be practiced only as their leaders dictate. A man can be jailed in Afghanistan if his beard is not long enough.

The United States respects the people of Afghanistan -- after all, we are currently its largest source of humanitarian aid -- but we condemn the Taliban regime. (Applause.) It is not only repressing its own people, it is threatening people everywhere by sponsoring and sheltering and supplying terrorists. By aiding and abetting murder, the Taliban regime is committing murder.

And tonight, the United States of America makes the following demands on the Taliban: Deliver to United States authorities all the leaders of al Qaeda who hide in your land. (Applause.) Release all foreign nationals, including American citizens, you have unjustly imprisoned. Protect foreign journalists, diplomats and aid workers in your country. Close immediately and permanently every terrorist training camp in Afghanistan, and hand over every terrorist, and every person in their support structure, to appropriate authorities. (Applause.) Give the United States full access to terrorist training camps, so we can make sure they are no longer operating.

These demands are not open to negotiation or discussion. (Applause.) The Taliban must act, and act immediately. They will hand over the terrorists, or they will share in their fate.

I also want to speak tonight directly to Muslims throughout the world. We respect your faith. It's practiced freely by many millions of Americans, and by millions more in countries that America counts as friends. Its teachings are good and peaceful, and those who commit evil in the name of Allah blaspheme the name of Allah. (Applause.) The terrorists are traitors to their own faith, trying, in effect, to hijack Islam itself. The enemy of America is not our many Muslim friends; it is not our many Arab friends. Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every government that supports them. (Applause.)

Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated. (Applause.)

Americans are asking, why do they hate us? They hate what we see right here in this chamber -- a democratically elected government. Their leaders are self-appointed. They hate our freedoms -- our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other.

They want to overthrow existing governments in many Muslim countries, such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan. They want to drive Israel out of the Middle East. They want to drive Christians and Jews out of vast regions of Asia and Africa.

These terrorists kill not merely to end lives, but to disrupt and end a way of life. With every atrocity, they hope that America grows fearful, retreating from the world and forsaking our friends. They stand against us, because we stand in their way.

We are not deceived by their pretenses to piety. We have seen their kind before. They are the heirs of all the murderous ideologies of the 20th century. By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions -- by abandoning every value except the will to power -- they follow in the path of fascism, and Nazism, and totalitarianism. And they will follow that path all the way, to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies. (Applause.)

Americans are asking: How will we fight and win this war? We will direct every resource at our command -- every means of diplomacy, every tool of intelligence, every instrument of law enforcement, every financial influence, and every necessary weapon of war -- to the disruption and to the defeat of the global terror network.

This war will not be like the war against Iraq a decade ago, with a decisive liberation of territory and a swift conclusion. It will not look like the air war above Kosovo two years ago, where no ground troops were used and not a single American was lost in combat.

Our response involves far more than instant retaliation and isolated strikes. Americans should not expect one battle, but a lengthy campaign, unlike any other we have ever seen. It may include dramatic strikes, visible on TV, and covert operations, secret even in success. We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place, until there is no refuge or no rest. And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. (Applause.) From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime.

Our nation has been put on notice: We are not immune from attack. We will take defensive measures against terrorism to protect Americans. Today, dozens of federal departments and agencies, as well as state and local governments, have responsibilities affecting homeland security. These efforts must be coordinated at the highest level. So tonight I announce the creation of a Cabinet-level position reporting directly to me -- the Office of Homeland Security.

And tonight I also announce a distinguished American to lead this effort, to strengthen American security: a military veteran, an effective governor, a true patriot, a trusted friend -- Pennsylvania's Tom Ridge. (Applause.) He will lead, oversee and coordinate a comprehensive national strategy to safeguard our country against terrorism, and respond to any attacks that may come.

These measures are essential. But the only way to defeat terrorism as a threat to our way of life is to stop it, eliminate it, and destroy it where it grows. (Applause.)

Many will be involved in this effort, from FBI agents to intelligence operatives to the reservists we have called to active duty. All deserve our thanks, and all have our prayers. And tonight, a few miles from the damaged Pentagon, I have a message for our military: Be ready. I've called the Armed Forces to alert, and there is a reason. The hour is coming when America will act, and you will make us proud. (Applause.)

This is not, however, just America's fight. And what is at stake is not just America's freedom. This is the world's fight. This is civilization's fight. This is the fight of all who believe in progress and pluralism, tolerance and freedom.

We ask every nation to join us. We will ask, and we will need, the help of police forces, intelligence services, and banking systems around the world. The United States is grateful that many nations and many international organizations have already responded -- with sympathy and with support. Nations from Latin America, to Asia, to Africa, to Europe, to the Islamic world. Perhaps the NATO Charter reflects best the attitude of the world: An attack on one is an attack on all.

The civilized world is rallying to America's side. They understand that if this terror goes unpunished, their own cities, their own citizens may be next. Terror, unanswered, can not only bring down buildings, it can threaten the stability of legitimate governments. And you know what -- we're not going to allow it. (Applause.)

Americans are asking: What is expected of us? I ask you to live your lives, and hug your children. I know many citizens have fears tonight, and I ask you to be calm and resolute, even in the face of a continuing threat.

I ask you to uphold the values of America, and remember why so many have come here. We are in a fight for our principles, and our first responsibility is to live by them. No one should be singled out for unfair treatment or unkind words because of their ethnic background or religious faith. (Applause.)

I ask you to continue to support the victims of this tragedy with your contributions. Those who want to give can go to a central source of information, libertyunites.org, to find the names of groups providing direct help in New York, Pennsylvania, and Virginia.

The thousands of FBI agents who are now at work in this investigation may need your cooperation, and I ask you to give it.

I ask for your patience, with the delays and inconveniences that may accompany tighter security; and for your patience in what will be a long struggle.

I ask your continued participation and confidence in the American economy. Terrorists attacked a symbol of American prosperity. They did not touch its source. America is successful because of the hard work, and creativity, and enterprise of our people. These were the true strengths of our economy before September 11th, and they are our strengths today. (Applause.)

And, finally, please continue praying for the victims of terror and their families, for those in uniform, and for our great country. Prayer has comforted us in sorrow, and will help strengthen us for the journey ahead.

Tonight I thank my fellow Americans for what you have already done and for what you will do. And ladies and gentlemen of the Congress, I thank you, their representatives, for what you have already done and for what we will do together.

Tonight, we face new and sudden national challenges. We will come together to improve air safety, to dramatically expand the number of air marshals on domestic flights, and take new measures to prevent hijacking. We will come together to promote stability and keep our airlines flying, with direct assistance during this emergency. (Applause.)

We will come together to give law enforcement the additional tools it needs to track down terror here at home. (Applause.) We will come together to strengthen our intelligence capabilities to know the plans of terrorists before they act, and find them before they strike. (Applause.)

We will come together to take active steps that strengthen America's economy, and put our people back to work.

Tonight we welcome two leaders who embody the extraordinary spirit of all New Yorkers: Governor George Pataki, and Mayor Rudolph Giuliani. (Applause.) As a symbol of America's resolve, my administration will work with Congress, and these two leaders, to show the world that we will rebuild New York City. (Applause.)

After all that has just passed -- all the lives taken, and all the possibilities and hopes that died with them -- it is natural to wonder if America's future is one of fear. Some speak of an age of terror. I know there are struggles ahead, and dangers to face. But this country will define our times, not be defined by them. As long as the United States of America is determined and strong, this will not be an age of terror; this will be an age of liberty, here and across the world. (Applause.)

Great harm has been done to us. We have suffered great loss. And in our grief and anger we have found our mission and our moment. Freedom and fear are at war. The advance of human freedom -- the great achievement of our time, and the great hope of every time -- now depends on us. Our nation -- this generation -- will lift a dark threat of violence from our people and our future. We will rally the world to this cause by our efforts, by our courage. We will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail. (Applause.)

It is my hope that in the months and years ahead, life will return almost to normal. We'll go back to our lives and routines, and that is good. Even grief recedes with time and grace. But our resolve must not pass. Each of us will remember what happened that day, and to whom it happened. We'll remember the moment the news came -- where we were and what we were doing. Some will remember an image of a fire, or a story of rescue. Some will carry memories of a face and a voice gone forever.

And I will carry this: It is the police shield of a man named George Howard, who died at the World Trade Center trying to save others. It was given to me by his mom, Arlene, as a proud memorial to her son. This is my reminder of lives that ended, and a task that does not end. (Applause.)

I will not forget this wound to our country or those who inflicted it. I will not yield; I will not rest; I will not relent in waging this struggle for freedom and security for the American people.

The course of this conflict is not known, yet its outcome is certain. Freedom and fear, justice and cruelty, have always been at war, and we know that God is not neutral between them. (Applause.)

Fellow citizens, we'll meet violence with patient justice -- assured of the rightness of our cause, and confident of the victories to come. In all that lies before us, may God grant us wisdom, and may He watch over the United States of America.

Thank you. (Applause

Posted by: Paul Jamieson | March 24, 2008 9:05 AM

Yes, it was a well done bit of political theater, but I have no idea what new ground it broke in race relations. The comparison between Rev. Jeremiah Wright and Barack's grandmother strikes me as strained too.

Then I say you've missed the point. No one, certainly a major presidential candidate, has ever made a speech like that (Howard Dean came close in 2003) that received so much play, let alone started a lot of water-cooler talk. Obama's reference to his pastor and grandmother has to do with many of his opponents on whatever side expecting him to repudiate them because they say offensive things, not realizing that, like it or not, he considers them "family" and you just don't do that to family.

It seems to me as if Sojo is trying to declare the Wright controversy Over And Done With. I regret to inform you that it is not in your power to do that unilaterally.

It's not so much "over and done with" than "much ado about nothing."

Yesterday I heard from a former associate pastor of my former church, now a head pastor at a different church, who had accompanied me two decades ago when I sent some my original songs to a local Christian TV show; I had reminded him that one of the songs, a scathing denunciation of contemporary American foreign policy, was called "G.D.U.S.A." He preached on Wright yesterday and suggested that I might want to dust it off! (I told him that it was now obsolete.)

My point is that Obama may actually gain politically not just because of the speech but because folks actually are gaining some insight into the prophetic tradition of the historic African-American church. After all, Wright was caught saying what's been said for decades in many black pulpits -- as much as we laud a Martin Luther King Jr. today, few remember that his life was in constant danger and eventually ended violently because what he said was very unpopular then.

However, conservatives, in my experience very easily offended, wanted Obama to mollify them because they have always wanted to control the discourse -- Wright's and King's real message has always been that conservative America has done wrong in God's sight and needs to repent and they just don't want to hear that. Obama did the right thing in refusing to do that.

Posted by: Rick Nowlin | March 24, 2008 11:22 AM

"However, conservatives, in my experience very easily offended, wanted Obama to mollify them because they have always wanted to control the discourse"

I don't want him to mollify anyone, and I don't know anyone who is personally offended. He can't mollify me on this point because I think it is just one example of his poor judgment.

I want him to be authentic to who he is, which is just now beginning to happen. Thus far, the authentic thing isn't working well for him with moderates.

"conservative America has done wrong in God's sight and needs to repent and they just don't want to hear that. "

I'm conservative, and I'm unrepentant about my political views. Am I damned? Is a moderate half-damned? I don't think these sorts of discoveries about black theology help Obama at all.

Posted by: kevin s. | March 24, 2008 1:32 PM

"Folks, I think you're overselling the Obama speech. Yes, it was a well done bit of political theater, but I have no idea what new ground it broke in race relations. The comparison between Rev. Jeremiah Wright and Barack's grandmother strikes me as strained too."

Wolvie,

It's only overselling if you do nothing about it and don't engage in the conversation. Why not talk to conscious people in your neighborhood? See what other people think, see where you can love folks that are your neighbor.

Paul,

I used to be a public speaker and I can tell you that speech Bush had written for him was in parts good and in parts dumb. They don't hate us for our freedom. They hate us for a lot more than that. That speech reveals an immature and unimaginative world view. It's sad really, he is the president.

If you think that's the best speech you have heard before then you need to listen to FDR, Kennedy, read Lincoln, and a few more people. Obama's speech was a speech for adults. That's something that Bush has not delivered since the fall of the Two towers and Pentagon attacks.

Eric,

I am going to be honest, answering your question is draining for me. I think the best advice I can give that doesn't push me is for you to look and write about what your experiences are and tell me how you see our Father's face in the different cultural forms. It will involve you working hard to ignore the natural way you look at things. But I think you can handle it.

p

Posted by: Payshun | March 24, 2008 2:27 PM

Whaddya mean "no remarks about Alan Keyes"? You mean we can't note that he was a last minute fill-in for Jack Ryan? You mean we can't note that Keyes had virtually no ties to Illinois before running? Do you mean that we can't note that Keyes performance in that campaign was so over-the-top that he turned off a lot of conservatives?

I don't think any of that mattered. I recalled seeing Obama campaigning in downstate Illinois, which I assume (because I know little about that state) is prime GOP territory, and people nearly swooning over him even there. If I remember correctly, Ryan was already polling behind before dropping out.

For all my reservations about Sen. McCain, he's a far stronger candidate with moderates than Keyes could ever hope to be.

Except for one thing -- the war in Iraq, which McCain has always supported but only hard-core Republicans support today.

Posted by: Rick Nowlin | March 24, 2008 3:21 PM

"Calling it "poor judgment" is one sign, as if your judgments about candidates you don't agree with are insightful -- but, truth be told, they rarely are."

Calling it poor judgment is a sign that I thought it was poor judgment. Wright IS offensive, but that does not mean I was offended. A baby throwing a fit in a restaurant is offensive, and reflects poorly on the parent, but that does not mean I personally offended.

"Another example of the idea that you just don't like Obama, who's always done well with moderates."

Until now. Have you seen the polling data?

"oh, and no remarks about Alan Keyes"

I can see why you wouldn't want me to remark on that particular barrel-bound fish. Hillary Clinton did well among moderates in the Michigan primary. Oh, and no remarks about how Obama wasn't on the ballot. I like this game.

"I don't think any of that mattered."

Of course it did, or you wouldn't have brought it up.

"I didn't say that."

You said conservative need to repent. I am conservative. What happens if I don't repent of that fact? Am I damned, or is Wright just off-base?

"steer the conversations on this blog to reflect the conservative agenda"

I steer them away from the notion that one must hold a set of political beliefs in order to be a Christian, and often defend my own beliefs as a way of making that points. But so what?

"occasionally pitching a fit when someone challenges you"

Can you give an example of a fit I have pitched? Does disagreement constitute a fit?

"Did you read the New York Times story yesterday about pastors in black churches incorporating the story in their Easter sermons?"

I did not, but if the gist is that black churches are seeing Wright as a messianic figure, then this event (in addition to being utterly depressing) will continue to do damage to Obama's perception among moderates.

Posted by: kevin s. | March 24, 2008 6:50 PM