Thank you for addressing an important topic. The health and prosperity gospel is frankly heretical. I am glad that the Senante is looking into this.

Posted by: Gordon | April 1, 2008 1:03 PM

I share in Nadia's discomfort (6 pairs of skiis, 4 bicycles, 2 trombones, score of electronic devices, etc.), but only a moral ignoramus could explain away "blessed are you poor", the camel and the eye of the needle, and "the love of money is the root of all evil" while denouncing gays and pro-choice people for explaining away other scriptures.

Posted by: Don Gisselbeck | April 1, 2008 1:15 PM

Posted by: Mick | April 1, 2008 2:10 PM

It would be interesting to see what the persentage of their salery makes up the budget. I would be willing to believe that the avg. churches pastors salery is over 30% of the total budget. Theirs might be 5% of the budget.

Now - I am not defending them but this is an interesting idea. OK - what it congress comes up with a restriction that anyone in charge of a church or NFP can only use 5% of the organizations income for their salery - ouch!

Now let's play this out for all NFP's and think about what could happen?

Blessings -
.

Posted by: Moderatelad | April 1, 2008 2:29 PM

Today in America you can only become rich by means of voluntary exchange. This makes wealth more closely associated with mind and effort rather than greed.

STOP!! STOP!! ROFLMBO!!!! PAROXYSMS OF LAUGHTER!!!

Posted by: lloyd crump | April 1, 2008 3:06 PM

I have said this several times before, but I guess it needs repeating. In a unregulated free market economy with a surplus of labor, wages tend towards the bottom. The bottom is; working waking hours for bad room and board. It does not matter whether the labor is physical or mental. Note that wages of "mind" workers are going down as their jobs are outsourced. Note also that nearly all of the policies likely to raise wages; the 40 hour work week, minimum wage, unemployment insurance, welfare, and government jobs are hated by many Christian conservatives. In addition, the trade policies their favorites advocate further depress wages by forcing Americans to compete directly with countries that use child and slave labor. I do not advocate giving things to people who will not work (even though a literal interpretation of the end of Matthew 25 says that will land me in hell). I do demand that people working full time (40 hrs a week in this country) recieve food, clothing, housing, clean water and medical care. If the oligarchs and their defenders continue to resist these basics, they will provoke a revolution.

Posted by: Don Gisselbeck | April 1, 2008 3:38 PM

From what I've seen of "prosperity theology," (just on the blogs), it really is a perversion of Christianity - "Jesus wants you to get rich." Ugh.

The lifestyle you describe sounds modest enough for somebody living in a wealthy nation - not like accumulating wealth is your focus. Moderate material comfort is a good thing. I remember reading in a class on church history where the monks used to overdo the fasting, the beds of nails, horsehair jackets... they finally realized that you can go too far with "mortification of the flesh!"

Paul - originalfaith.com

Posted by: Paul Maurice Martin | April 1, 2008 4:27 PM

While DITE's comment about the "only way to get rich in America" is laughable, his larger point and the question it asks is a decent one.

Is there anything sinful in working hard, earning money honestly, and giving your family a comfortable life? The average middle-class American is extremely wealthy compared to the average human being. Is this sinful? Like Nadia and Don, I spend money on all sorts of leisure items I don't need.

Obviously how you acquire your wealth and what you do with the money matter greatly, but is the simple act of earning money (more than you actually need to get by on) sinful when there are others going without? Is this what Jesus was talking about or was he talking about dishonestly acquired wealth, wealth gained from exploiting others, or wealth accumulated to fulfill greedy desires?

Any thoughts?

Posted by: Eric | April 1, 2008 4:58 PM

While many have probably abused the prosperity message for their own personal gain, I caution all my friends here against judgmentalist attitudes against all those who teach that the Lord indeed wants to bless us. I fellowship at a church that teaches we are to be blessed by God (since EVERYTHING is ultimately His anyways) so that we can in turn BLESS OTHER PEOPLE!

Even Mother Therese had jets and things at her disposal so she could speak and raise money for the poor in her care. Did she take much for herself? Of course not. Prosperity with a purpose is Biblical. I don't know where these 6 people stand as far as the 501(c)3 status and if they need to be investigated so be it. That will prove whether they have something to hide or not.

But do not say that Jesus hates us to have material wealth...He simply warned us not to love money and material goods. And I say all of this as I sit, as a college student, with two kids, divorced, in subsidized housing utilizing food stamps. I do not plan to be here forever though and constantly pray that the Lord blesses the work of my hands that I have overflow of talent, love, possessions, money and grace so that I may better serve others.

2 Cor 9:8 (NLT) And God will generously provide all you need. Then you will always have everything you need and plenty left over to share with others. 9 As the Scriptures say, "They share freely and give generously to the poor. Their good deeds will be remembered forever.”
10 For God is the one who provides seed for the farmer and then bread to eat. In the same way, he will provide and increase your resources and then produce a great harvest of generosity in you.
11 Yes, you will be enriched in every way so that you can always be generous. And when we take your gifts to those who need them, they will thank God."

1 Cor 7:30 "Those who weep or who rejoice or who buy things should not be absorbed by their weeping or their joy or their possessions. 31 Those who use the things of the world should not become attached to them. For this world as we know it will soon pass away."

Posted by: Tasiyagnunpa | April 1, 2008 5:09 PM

One need not be a "conservative" Christian to be dismayed by the prosperity gospel craze. Why do these preachers need corporate jets, penthouses, and all trappings of Western wealth? These people are scam artists, and they need to be exposed. The tax exemption for religious organizations is being used to mask a commercial enterprise, and Senator Grassley is right.

Posted by: blessinggirl | April 1, 2008 5:12 PM

“In a unregulated free market economy with a surplus of labor, wages tend towards the bottom”

Look, wages are the price of labor. Prices are communicators. They communicate millions of economic decisions. So, you can’t really decide which prices are at your definition of a “bottom.”

“Note also that nearly all of the policies likely to raise wages; the 40 hour work week, minimum wage, unemployment insurance, welfare, and government jobs are hated by many Christian conservatives.”

How do these policies raise wages?

“In addition, the trade policies their favorites advocate further depress wages by forcing Americans to compete directly with countries that use child and slave labor.”

Nearly every economist would disagree with your call for protectionist trade policies. You can’t prevent an economy from evolving. Should the government have stepped in to prevent the decreased wages of those who were making typewriters when the PC was invented?

“I do demand that people working full time (40 hrs a week in this country) recieve food, clothing, housing, clean water and medical care”

Well, Roughly three-quarters of all poor families with children have total parental work levels of less than 2,000 hours per year (the equivalent of one adult working 40 hours per week for 50 weeks). So, if you work fulltime you have a pretty good shot of not being poor. And if you are in the unfortunate fourth that are under the poverty line you will be able to have food, clothing, housing, clean water, and medical care…and a TV, cell phone, and probably air conditioning.

You demand that the government provide people with these rights? The government doesn’t create or give rights…it protects them. The poor in America deserve better than government dependency.

“We forgot the lessons of the Great Depression.
Unregulated capitalism doesn't fix itself when it crashes.”

Absolutely wrong. First, the Great Depression was largely a result of poor monetary policy and protectionist trade policy. There were also taxes, subsidies, and franchises. So, how can you say that that the Great Depression was a result of unregulated capitalism? The depression started in 1929 and didn’t end until the mid 1940’s. That’s over a decade of New Deal government regulation failure.

“only way to get rich in America" is laughable

If it is laughable, tell me how to become wealthy legally without voluntary exchange.

Posted by: DITE | April 1, 2008 5:27 PM

Never mind the "theology" of prosperity -- isn't there a dangerous irony in having Congress examine the integrity of anyone? One could talk about pots calling kettles "black."

And beyond that -- I am reminded of the quote about "When they came for the trade unionists, I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist, etc."

Whenever one is too pleased that the one with whom one disagrees is "getting what he deserves," one forgets that it may not be long before some shoe is on a different foot, and one's own ways are out of fashion.

It is a dangerous thing when any government organism -- however good the proclaimed intentions -- begins poking its nose into religious affairs. It would be so if this were about some eastern religion; it is equally so if it is about Kennith Copeland or Benny Hinn or Joe Schmoe.

Posted by: OgbomoshoPete | April 1, 2008 5:48 PM

At what point does a Not For Profit cease to be "not for profit" and become "for profit"? when the head of the NFP can afford to buy a new mountain bike? or a Toyota Corolla? or a pink Cadillac? or a Lear Jet?

At what point does the Not For Profit abuse its legal status as a NFP?

Posted by: carl copas | April 1, 2008 6:04 PM

"Does unregulated capitalism fix itself when it crashes?"

I don't know. I have never seen an unregulated market crash.

Posted by: DITE | April 1, 2008 6:36 PM

The Grassley Six, fleece their flock no differently than does Jim Wallace and the Sojouners business ventures. It all starts with an altered Gospel.

Posted by: Today is not yesterday. | April 1, 2008 7:10 PM

WHATEVER HAPPENED TO "GO, SELL ALL YOU HAVE, GIVE IT TO THE POOR, AND THEN FOLLOW ME?"

SELL ALL. NOT SOME. ALL. I FAIL THE TEST... BUT I CONFESS I AM HELD ACCOUNTABLE BY IT.

I CARE NOT WHAT GRASSLEY MAY OR MAY NOT UNCOVER. THOSE WITH WEALTH WILL BE JUDGED BY GOD. I'LL LEAVE IT IN GOD'S HANDS.

Posted by: Stephen Brown | April 1, 2008 7:27 PM

Let's put this another way. The essence of the free market is that individual consumers (us) want to pay as little as possible for things, especially labor. If we can get something for nothing, we will. If some starving workers underbid their neighbors, we will hire them. We do not want to pay full long term costs for labor, and that primarily means paying enough to lessen the risk of social disruption. I cannot think of any entity capable of compelling the free market to pay full cost of labor and resources (a species of preventing theft),except the government. We certainly don't seem to be responding to preaching.

Posted by: Don Gisselbeck | April 1, 2008 7:31 PM

Don Gisselbeck, faith in the magic of the free market is far greater in this country than is faith in the Lord. I'd argue the historical evidence for the latter is far greater than for the former.

Posted by: carl copas | April 1, 2008 7:58 PM

The so-called prosperity gospel is an unmasked expression of a theology of glory. It is what Christianity looks like without the cross.

Posted by: Joe Holub | April 1, 2008 9:18 PM

As I see it, there are two components that are not at all related.

One, primarily in the African-American community, preachers are looked up to for community leadership because at one point there was no other choice -- it actually wants its preachers rich (to a certain extent). That is why the civil-rights movement almost had to start in the church. On top of that, the American church has always had its share of charlatans, and that had to do with the unique freedom of religion it has here; in Europe back in the day the church you attended was territorial and state-connected (if not state-run).

Two, much wealth these days is accumulated not through hard work but on speculation (banks, real estate, stocks etc.), and anything that hurts investment thus needs to be removed. There's nothing wrong with investments as such, but when that's your primary focus it becomes a problem. A lot of your health-care issues, specifically prescription drugs, come straight from keeping the value of such stocks high, never mind what it does to the people who have to buy inflated prices for such goods.

There's nothing wrong with being rich per se, but I completely agree with the poster who said that we should use our wealth to bless others. That we don't says something about us.

Posted by: Rick Nowlin | April 1, 2008 10:44 PM

“Have you been watching the news?”

Ha, are you insinuating that the US has an “unregulated” market?

“WHATEVER HAPPENED TO "GO, SELL ALL YOU HAVE, GIVE IT TO THE POOR, AND THEN FOLLOW ME?"

Jesus commanded that to one person who struggled with idolizing material possessions…not to all mankind. P.S: love the all caps.

“I cannot think of any entity capable of compelling the free market to pay full cost of labor and resources”

Again, what do you mean by “full cost?” Who decides what is “full cost?” You? I repeat, prices are communicators not something you can just make up. What you are asking for is for the government to use coercion to set prices rather than the voluntary agreement of free people.

Posted by: DITE | April 2, 2008 12:01 AM

Anybody ever thot that if the church would take out its own trash, Congress wouldn't have to do it for you?

Posted by: canucklehead | April 2, 2008 1:09 AM

“Is there anything sinful in working hard, earning money honestly, and giving your family a comfortable life? The average middle-class American is extremely wealthy compared to the average human being. Is this sinful? Like Nadia and Don, I spend money on all sorts of leisure items I don't need.”
Eric

I think the key really lies in the verse Matthew 6:19-21
19 "Don't store up treasures here on earth, where moths eat them and rust destroys them, and where thieves break in and steal.20 Store your treasures in heaven, where moths and rust cannot destroy, and thieves do not break in and steal.21 Wherever your treasure is, there the desires of your heart will also be.

There really is no “recipe” or “paint by numbers” set of instructions on what to have or not to have. The issue is more “Why do I want it?” and “Where is my treasure?” Is it just for the bragging rights? Or a tool I humbly place in God’s hand?

Also….”What am I trusting in? Who is my God?” Am I trusting in God to accomplish His purposes, or my own cleverness and power?
“”Not by power, not by might, but by My Spirit”, says the Lord.”

I think we will always have to ask ourselves those questions just because we live in this country where there is such abundance. And you know….don’t know about you, but I find I need to ask those kinds of questions in the oddest places.

I don’t find myself needing to ask those questions in places like J.C. Penney’s or Ashley Furniture or Circuit City. In those kinds of places, the sticker prices answer those questions – quite quickly for someone on a budget. Where I find myself MOST having to ask myself those kinds of questions is in the cheapie discount places.

We have a place here called The Dollar Tree that I frequent to buy hygiene items for homeless people. But…by golly…everytime I go in there, my eyes get big as my car’s 2 front tires. Wow…I can buy this, and I can have that! And I can afford it, because it’s only a buck!
And I have to ask myself why I want it, what would I do with it.

But those sorts of questions have to be asked privately and individually. It’s kind of like the “What would Jesus drive” thing that circulated a couple years ago. It made very good sense to me to ask myself what Jesus would drive if I went to pick out a new car. Where it started to slide down the hill into silliness was when people started asking that question in regards to others.

Get my drift? There are the glaring cases that clearly cross the line (such as when people are buying personal Leer Jets and living lavish lifestyles.

On the other hand…. Tasiyagnunpa had an excellent point – and I quote his/her view on this:

“I do not plan to be here forever though and constantly pray that the Lord blesses the work of my hands that I have overflow of talent, love, possessions, money and grace so that I may better serve others.”

Very true.

Other than the glaring extreme violators like the Grassley 6, I think that’s a Holy Spirit Question. Jesus Christ only left general guidelines . The specifics we need to pray and ask for God’s wisdom and guidance. And the Holy Spirit tends to be highly individual in those places where God’s Word hasn’t been specific. Because there are valid purposes under some circumstance for jet airplanes and SUV’s, for electronic gadgets like computers and cell phones.

It all depends on the circumstances God has placed us in, on the time and the season and the place. All those things can, at the right time, under the right circumstances, be used for God’s glory as tools in God’s hands.

But at the wrong time and under the wrong circumstances, they can be items we put our trust in rather than God. They can be things that we lust after.

And I can’t tell you what the right time and circumstances are. Only the Holy Spirit can. And He’d be most likely to tell YOU the right time and circumstances

Posted by: Amazon Creek | April 2, 2008 3:28 AM

Some people reading this might like to remember to look at www.globalrichlist.com

Here in England, a minimum wage job puts you in the highest 11.25% of all world earners. Rich is a question of perspective and that is the problem of the prosperity gospel. It's not about how much money you have, it's about whether your sights are set on God's kingdom or your neighbour's new car.

I don't like the prosperity gospel, but I have heard Creflo Dollar and Joyce Meyer preach on tv, and thought them to be helpful and biblical.

Posted by: Simon Travers | April 2, 2008 3:59 AM

Greed has been unleashed on the nation. It's not just T.V. preachers or politicians. It seems everybody wants so much for so little. We're overtaxed and overcharged. There's a mindset to appease the wealthy at every turn. I searched for "Greed in the Bible" on the Internet. The Bible says a lot about it. After some thought, it occurred to me that I haven't heard many sermons on greed. Greed has been mentioned. but only as part of a list and not a solitary topic. T.V. preachers' never talk about greed.

Posted by: Will Duress | April 2, 2008 6:24 AM

Hi,

I listen to prosperity preachers sometimes and have some very dear friends who attend one of the chuches here in the Atlanta area.This is what it means to me:

I am poor, but I am not poor. How can I be poor when I have God's love in my life? I may be physically poor, but I am spiritually rich. "The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want."

It is not about the physical. It is about the spiritual wealth we all have in Christ.

I am always amazed that as Christians, we are always looking at the physical rather than the spiritual.

The church I refer to has someone praying there 24/7. I heard of a Catholic church that has something similar. Does your church have someone praying there 24/7?

Posted by: Gloria Poe | April 2, 2008 7:08 AM

You know - SOJO just seems to be a smaller - Christian version of CNN. The authors seem to out there looking for people in the Christian that even many of us conservatives do not totally agree with and give them even more press. Let blast them and smear them all over the conservatives. You mean there aren't any people doing the Lord's work that are worth writing about and informing the family about? Can we tell about all the wonderful things that they are doing and not bring in Dobson - Kennedy or Fawell to show the good, band and percived ugly according to the author? I have said it before and I will say it again but I know I am talking to the wall. If Wallis and Co. would just promote their ideas and agenda without attacking others in the faith to achieve some kinda of 'advantage'. I and I know others could be more supportive. But the way Sojo promotes itself. I have to trash Kennedy - Fawell - Dobson in order to be supportive of Wallis.

whatever -
.

Posted by: Moderatelad | April 2, 2008 9:06 AM

Moderatelad: Pot, meet kettle.

First of all, show me where Nadia "trashes" Kennedy, Falwell, and/or Dobson on this post. I thought she was talking about Copeland, Hinn, and Osteen. And where on God's Politics is anyone really "trashing" them? Taking issue with political positions isn't "trashing." Oh, yes: when Falwell died, I seem to recall Rev. Wallis writing a gracious obituary. Do you want me to look it up?

Second, you seem to love making fun of the other Kennedy, Pelosi, Reid, Gore "the climate evangelist"), Obama, Hillary, Hillary's husband, etc. Do I need to search out examples to show you? You don't really take issue with their positions, you just tell us why you don't trust them.

It's you and your neocon friends who continue going to great lengths to find fault with Jim Wallis and Sojourners. You really need to take that log out of your own eye.

D

Peace,

Posted by: Don | April 2, 2008 9:23 AM

To be fair, I don't see this as necessarily a criticism of the right. Maybe I missed it, but Bolz-Weber doesn't seem to me to be trying to pin all this on conservatives or the Bush administration.

And yes, the Prosperity Gospel is a real problem that needs to be addressed.

Wolverine

Posted by: Wolverine | April 2, 2008 9:35 AM

Justintime,
I agree with you completely when you wrote that “These sad times bring death spasms for deregulated, free market, laissez faire, neoliberal, Freidmanic, supply side, trickle down, voodoo capitalism. We forgot the lessons of the Great Depression. Unregulated capitalism doesn't fix itself when it crashes. Now the innocent will suffer for the sins of those who worshipped the bitch goddess of the bottom line.”

You are so right. It is high-time the capitalists who have trampled on the workers be made to pay. We must centralize the ‘credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly…There is only one way to kill capitalism – by taxes, taxes, and more taxes.’

Democracy is a form of government that cannot long survive, for as soon as the people learn that they have a voice in the fiscal policies of the government, they will move to vote for themselves all the money in the treasury, and bankrupt the nation.’ The nation will die away and the workers of the world will be united. Put your trust in the regulators of the central government. They know best. The bureaucrats in Washington are incredibly competent.

Karl

Posted by: Karl Marx | April 2, 2008 9:43 AM

Nadia,

I posted a while back something I called "Does God Want Me To Get Rich?" and really resonate with your revulsion of prosperity preachers while living in the richest country on the planet.

It's a constant struggle to be prophetic and realistic at the same time.

Brian Jones
www.brianjones.com

Posted by: Brian Jones | April 2, 2008 9:49 AM

Posted by: Don | April 2, 2008 9:23 AM

'...Nadia "trashes" Kennedy, Falwell, and/or Dobson on this post. I thought she was talking about Copeland, Hinn...'

Kennedy and Fawell are dead so they need to be replaced. WHY - give them any press. Why make them the issue at all. WHY not just promote what your agenda is without making someone or some organization your Scape Goat.

'...Kennedy, Pelosi, Reid, Gore "the climate evangelist"), Obama, Hillary, Hillary's...'

I do take on the issues with these people. I understand what there agenda is because their actions scream so loud their words are hard to hear. You and others seem to split the hair with we and others on this site. But just take what many of these people say as gospel. (ie. Hillary was named for Sir Edmond Hillary who climbed Mt Everest - he climbed it in '53 - she was born in 47'. She as first lady few into sniper fire? - Love story was written because of Al and Tippers courtship - about 3 years before they meet - Wallis knighted Gore as the 'Enviormentalist Evangelist') If a conservative tried to rewrite their history - they would be cained by the Big Four.

Wallis and his message would find a larger crowd and more support if he/they would just write about what they are seeing as the needs of the world or future and not always looking and identifing their scape goat as to why they are not able to get the job done. (the visual that I have with Wallis try to get noticed is like the donkey in Shrek jumping up and down in the crowd yelling 'pick me - pick me'!)

'...take that log out...'

There are enough logs to go around for everyone.

whatever -
.

Posted by: Moderatelad | April 2, 2008 10:14 AM

Wallis and his message would find a larger crowd and more support if he/they would just write about what they are seeing as the needs of the world or future

And where are they not doing just that? It's easy to suspect that the reason you are criticizing Wallis is because you don't like his politics, not because he isn't articulating what he blieves the world needs.

And your comments about Hillary, Gore, and Tipper demonstrate the point I was trying to make--you don't want to talk about their policies, you just want to poke personal fun at them.

Finally, Falwell and Kennedy are indeed dead, but the movements they began are not. Is Wallis really scapegoating them? Or is he responding to the political reality that the Religious Right and its narrow agenda are still something to be reckoned with?

D

Posted by: Don | April 2, 2008 10:26 AM

Posted by: Don | April 2, 2008 10:15 AM

Back in the day with I had the honor of working for Dr Billy Graham - one of our concerns was that as mission fields opened, in stead of being evangelized they would be franchized. We saw that coming and it made us sad. But in reading Graham - Kennedy - Schuller and others. Yes we were challenged on our faith, shown the needs of the community or world, pointed out as to what God required of us, but also shown the victory that we have in Christ and what has been done to further the Kingdom. I sorry - if I had to only believe what most of the authors and Wallis have to say - I'd be drinking the Kool-Aid.

The church has done so much that is good - yes some was not done well. But you need to celebrate the little victories. Wallis and Co. seem to just enjoy wallowing in the mud. I can wallow through the mud but I have to get to the summit of the mountain occasionally. I am one of those 'peek to peek' kinda people. I can work in the valley - but I have to climb the mountain and bring a few people there with me.

be well -
.

Posted by: Moderatelad | April 2, 2008 10:32 AM

Posted by: Don | April 2, 2008 10:26 AM

The comments from Hillary Gore etc were said to gain support and endear themselves to the people they were talking to at that time and in the future. So - lying to make me like you is OK? If they would lie about something so simple - what would they do with very serious subjects. My dad taught me that you can count on a man (he was talking about the male gender at that time) by how he handles his family and wife. That was a stumbling block for me with Clinton. That is my challenge with her at this time.

Before you take off - my Dad died before Clinton was Pres so it was the way he handle his life - not that he was more conservative.

whatever -

Posted by: Moderatelad | April 2, 2008 10:39 AM

Moderatelad,
So we should just ignore heretical teachers who convince people who can least afford it to send in their money. This practice is just fine, then? Is that what you are saying, because you seem to be defending the practice.

You yourself have taken issue with the fact that the government is trying to do something about this and how dangerous that is (slippery slope fallacy of argument). If the government doesn't do anything, then who should?

I argue that if we as Christians do not expose this heresy for what it is, then we have no right to criticize government for stepping in to do what we should be doing. But then again, if we do that, you argue we are just wallowing in the mud. So, it seems you are saying it is best not to do anything. And little old ladies can continue to send in their social security checks for false promises of prosperity while the recipients of those checks buy another Armani suit.

Sorry for the sarcastic tone, but I have an extremely deep sense of righteous anger towards these charlatans for what it does to the least of these, and what it does to Christ's Gospel. My anger is not directed towards you, but them.

Posted by: squeaky | April 2, 2008 10:47 AM

Posted by: squeaky | April 2, 2008 10:47 AM

You make a very good argument - I would agree with most of what you have said.

I have never support these prosperity people. They are wrong on that part of their theology. I have several people in my church that came to faith because of Joyce - Benny - Paul and Jan and dare I say - the Bakkers. They also grew in their faith and saw that some and at time most of what they had first thought was not always correct. (not wrong - just not correct) Through study they came to a deeper understanding. I did not have to trash Paul and Jan and demand that she burn all her 'Jan Dolls' or 'Tammy Records'.

'..government doesn't do anything...'

OK the Senate looks at Benny - Paul and Jan and says - 'from now on any pastor of a church or leader of a ministry - their salery can not be greater than 10% of the budget'. You have just killed financally 95%+ of the pastors in this country. They are going to have to get another job so that they can make the mortage payment. It can happen.

'...in their social security checks for false promises of prosperity...'

In short - You Can't Fix Stupid. (No one is holding a gun to their heads but I have several friends that still smoke and started after it was confirmed that it caused cancer.) Do you think that if more of the pastors and people like Wallis spent their time talking about the love of God and that God only wants what it best for all of his children all around the world and not so much putting the spot-light on Benny - it would be time and effort better spent. I believe that you further the Kingdon of God be showing the sweeter side of God. Paul and Jan - Benny etc will fall and God will deal with them. Now in our efforts to further the Kingdom - if asked I will say that I do not agree with Paul and Jan if asked. But I will not blast Paul and Jan and then tell the peoson about Christ's love. Truth always wins out.

'My anger is not directed towards you, but them.'

Anger from someone like you - I listen to you. You are respectful, direct and you have thought the issue though. I would rather deal with your anger than be kissed by an enemey. I just look at what Paul and Jan start - I pray that God will put someone like you in their path to compleat the process. Love them into the Kingdom.

Blessings -
.

Posted by: Moderatelad | April 2, 2008 11:14 AM

Modlad -

". . . am not sure that I would be praising the Senate's investigation just yet. If they look at those few and decide to make wholesale changes on what a minister can and can not do. It might come down to the point where it bits those of you who get a various modest income from your congregation or NFP organization."

Point taken, but I very much doubt this will be the ultimate upshot of the Senate investigation. I am glad that someone is putting the spotlight on these people. The priest at my church talks about this, I have heard sermons on the subject for years . . . and this heresy continues. It isn't the business of Congress to concern itself with heresy, but it is arguably its business to concern itself with fraud.

Posted by: Gordon | April 2, 2008 11:49 AM

In this beautiful Easter season we are reminded via the readings in the Acts of the Apostles how the early Christians saw the teaching of Jesus. Those who had more than they needed sold what they had so that all could live in dignity and without want. It's called justice. Sometimes, mercy. It's not I,I,I, me,me, me, and Mine, mine, mine . Good article. We all need to ponder how we spend and what we spend it on. We make a moral decision everytime money changes hands.

Posted by: rita | April 2, 2008 11:51 AM

Posted by: squeaky | April 2, 2008 11:50 AM

'...government shouldn't be doing the Church's job, this should really raise your hackles...'

You know - it does. But I still believe that if Wallis would focus on the positives of the Christian life and celebrate what we have been able to do along with challenging us that more needs to be done - it would be better. His need to have an example of what he believes is wrong and then say 'but I have the answer' doesn't work.

Story - I was with a friend of mines mother back in the day. She was a big support of the Bakkers and and given a lot of money to them. (including the purchase of their weekend and Heritage USA that they never got.) She was listening to Tammy talk and cry on TV - she was crying too. Tammy was giving her 'I need to experience true grief' speech. How God answered her prayer because the 'dog died'. My friend had died of cancer about 20 months earlier. I was able to sit with her and point out that Tammy know the grief she had gone through in the loss of her son at 22 years because the mutt died in the dog house. She came to an understanding that something was not adding up. Had I taken the Bakkers to task about any number of issues that I had with them - my friends Mom would have never listened. That I was able to show her the shallowness of Tammy and her understanding of grief - now, she understood. Wallis needs to let them go and not make them the focal point of the issue. Make the issue the issue and the people will understand.

Blessings -
.

Posted by: Moderatelad | April 2, 2008 12:48 PM

"In other words, you make enough money to buy a Land Rover. So buy a Honda and put the rest towards something important- it will get you where you need to go. Or even better, a Hyundai."

Even better, buy one that's made with local labor, by those offering health insurance and retirement.

Posted by: N.M. Rod | April 2, 2008 3:21 PM

For sale: Idolatry Dectector

Retail: $5,000

Sniffs out:

*Mammon (aka "the free market")

*Self-righteousness (aka "Christianity"- either conservative or liberal)

*Arrogance (aka "me"- for coming up with this little scheme)

Available wherever the Gospel is "sold"

Please list your e-mails so that I can write to all of you from the EUROPEAN LOTTERY which you have just won.

Bad Duh-sciple (aka "spiritually immature")

Posted by: Duh-sciple | April 2, 2008 3:37 PM

When I was in the States with my daughter and son-in-law (a well educated Hindu who is sympathetic to the teachings of Jesus but not to many aspects of Christianity itself), we saw some absolutely dreadful "Christian" TV programmes. These included a lot on demonology which went far beyond what we are taught in Scripture, dubious theology on all sorts of social and international issues, unbiblical health, wealth and prosperity teachings, and very little on discipleship, self-sacrifice or ministering to the poor and needy either in the USA itself or in the Developing World. Hopefully these TV programmes are not a true reflection of the state of the US Church. However, they and the people who produce them are a very poor witness and probably mislead many uneducated or gullible people to part with money they can ill afford to support the lavish lifestyles, personal jets, big houses etc of the tele-evangelists, many of whom seemed to me to be extremely overweight!. Like my son-in-law I find the life and teachings of Mahatma Gandhi closer to the teachings of Jesus than many of these false preachers and prophets.

Some of the less awful programmes I watched were those of Pat Robertson and yet even he and his fellow presenters came out with statements about modern Israel, homosexuality, Women, Islam etc which were extremely inaccurate and at times quite nasty. I believe that Pat Robertson is a right wing multi-millionaire with very dubious business interests both in the US and Africa and in his younger days supported segregation in the US and Apartheid in South Africa. From a UK perspective I find it difficult to understand why so many US evangelical Christians leaders seem happy to appear on his programmes to promote their books and/or ministries.

Posted by: Florence | April 2, 2008 4:32 PM

justintime; all the failures you cite are part of the free market clean up system. the poorly run companies go broke and new, smarter ones take their place. regulation results in the current mortgage debacle, high gas prices, etc. how? the gov. sets the lending criteria, the goverment restricts refinery output. etc. etc. taxes are a form of regulation. think. responsible oversight by corrupt politicians - ha ha ha. tee hee. and which democracy will police the government?
when did unregulated capitalism collapse into an ocean of greed?
and lastly look at all the people that used "hate" to describe feelings. scarrrry!

Posted by: jerry | April 2, 2008 5:46 PM

don: elections? choosing between two corrupt parties? democracy? throw trhe rascals out? so let's see----are politicians corrupt because the corps.. give money or.....do they give money because the politicians coerce? hmmmmmmmm. and
didn't the free market take care of the speculation of the late 20s? so we are where we are now? rich, spoiled, fat and religious. oh, and overregulated.

Posted by: jerry | April 2, 2008 7:46 PM

A friend wrote: That's a lot of money for an idolatry detector. Common sense works pretty well and that's free.

1. I thought $5,000 was an outstanding price for an idolatry detector.

2. I talked to my manager. And she says I can lower the price to $2,500.

3. And she reminds me that people overvalue their "common sense". Even though it is free, you get what you pay for. When it comes to idolatry, what we need is "uncommon sense." Look around you. People are falling for false gods left and right. There's the "free market" and the "government should fix it" and "if we just murder all the bad guys, then you eliminate evil, and everyone will get along"

So please consider this outstanding offer. You might not get a better price anywhere.

And note: all profits will be given to a worthy cause, supported by all major USA political parties.

$2,500- a great bargain- for an idolatry detector!

Duh-sciple Tim (now into sales)

Posted by: Duh-sciple | April 2, 2008 9:32 PM

Duh,

Do you have a website with more information about your idolatry detector you're offering at half price?
How do I know it's any better than plain old common sense?
I would need to understand how it works before shelling out that kind of money.

Posted by: justintime | April 2, 2008 9:49 PM

Even @ $1750.95 I would need more information about your idolatry detector before making a purchase - What is the method of detection? What specific claims on sensitivity and reliability? also a photo of the unit would be helpful.
Do you have a website?

Posted by: justintime | April 2, 2008 10:26 PM

All I know is I feel like I'm living in a society of rip-offs. It appears to me that what was deregulated away under Deregulation was any sense of ethics and what is fair and reasonable. Now greed is on the march. Ravishing the nation of living-wage jobs, giving vent to the greedy aspirations of executives and politicians and filtering down to influence ordinary folks into being greedy. Those ministries who preach prosperity don't give any account to all the varied situations 300 hundred some million people must live in. Sometimes you have to look at the ways of greedy folks and ask,"Do I really want to be like that?" Don't you feel the growing oppression?

Posted by: Will Duress | April 2, 2008 10:53 PM

Mick:

Okay, my bad. Hillary and her mom helped feed the rumor, so it wasn't technically false for Moderatelad to say that they were making that claim.

Nevertheless, these kinds of rumors need to be checked out before they are forwarded. Far too many people, including a loot of Christians, are too eager to hit the "send" button without verifying.

And my original comment still stands: Moderatelad is more interested in making fun of people he disagrees with than he is in making a case for why their policies are wrongheaded. I'm not trying to defend the policies of any of the politicians he and I named in our exchange, but Moderatelad shouldn't be accusing Sojourners-God's Politics of negativity without first recognizing the negative nature of his own contributions.

Peace,

Posted by: Don | April 3, 2008 6:59 AM

Don -

"A Republican officeholder running for reelection or a Republican candidate for office has to tow the line with these interests or he/she will be defeated in the next primary--these interests will see to that. Just look at the struggles John McCain--who doesn't fit these molds very well--is going through to try and make himself acceptable to these interests, and you can see what I mean."

Would it be rude to point out that McCain won the nomination?

Your experience with the Republican party in your location sounds like my experience with the Democrat Party in Kentucky. My solution has been to belong to no party.

Posted by: Gordon | April 3, 2008 10:03 AM

Yeah I also think that Jesus throws up whenever the prosperity gospel comes on. But it's because he can't stand the deception and manipulation. He still loves this seedy bunch of swindlers. That's where he and I differ. I can't stand to watch their programs and I've ruined too many carpets with my vomit. But love them? Still trying to get there.

Posted by: Mark | April 3, 2008 4:11 PM

Jody:

The evangelical pastor in El Salvador whom we discussed the prosperity gospel (see my earlier post) with is most concerned with what he sees as the false hope of earthly riches that it gives to people. For the poor of Latin America, that's a big draw, but it eventually leads to despair--and loss of faith.

Lutheran theology focuses on the Cross. Our faith is both tested and proven through our sufferings, not through our external prosperity.

What do the prosperity teachers do with this promise of Jesus: "In the world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer--I have overcome the world" (John 16:33)?

Posted by: Don | April 4, 2008 7:59 AM

There's a line from Salinger's novel Catcher in the Rye that occurs, as I remember, as the players in the Radio City Music Hall Easter Pageant conclude their performance, in which Holden, the narrator in the novel, reflects, "Good 'ol Jesus woulda puked." The same response would be elicited by these "profits of prosperity."

Posted by: randy | April 4, 2008 10:20 AM

The concept of "word of faith" (one can speak or think things into reality) also goes hand in hand with prosperity teachers. Also a great debate and a fine line. In either case, in the end, the Word is a sword of truth, knows our motives and will convict. But it's fun to debate.
Will try to be brief (for me), but this is my hot button (first blog ever). We know that God allows blessings and a read of Exodus shows He gave it to the people to be used for specific purposes and that He would take care of them. Abundance is not stated as money but it is not excluded. Jesus was clear about how it would be for a rich man to get to heaven but it was after he was not willing to part with it. God blesses those who bless others and blessing does not always mean giving money that does not help. It is but one tool.
Being in the money industry, it's undisputable that money is what facilitates our economy and means for support of selves and others and can be used for good or evil. But incorrect use of this tool will catch up and we see that now.
As with many things, there is a razor fine line between helpful and hurtful collection and use. It becomes dishonest when promising specific results by professing to know God's plan for someone. Those who actually are defrauding should be looked at, if those who cannot normally govern themselves can do so and react in a responsible manner. This country has yet to address where the line for executive pay is fair or not when companies fall apart. Also a source of damage to all people. Difficult questions all and all require time and focused critical thinking to solve. Something many do not carve out in this world of conflicting priorities.

Posted by: godsdaughter8 | April 15, 2008 12:24 AM