I wouldn't simplify it like that...

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Posted by: live_life | May 13, 2008 2:25 PM

I wouldn't simplify it like that. . .

But sometimes it is just that simple. People who cross legally determined and internationally recognized borders without the permission of the country they are entering, are acting illegally. Period. And the inevitable result is, or at least should be. . . they pay the price for their criminal activity.
I am not a hardheart. I understand well that people want to come to the USA, and they want to come here because of the relative freedom and prosperity that we enjoy here. But there are processes, however poor and bureaucrtic they may be, to allow that privilege. And the future of our civilization likely depends on controlling and enforcing those processes, at the same time that we try to improve them.
Send illegal aliens home. If we want to move to, and live in any country, then we must start off by abiding by the laws of that country.

It really is that simple.

Posted by: joekc | May 13, 2008 2:34 PM

Jim Wallis and others have been assuming that illegal aliens in the USA are comparable to the aliens who were in Israel, Judea and Samaria at the time of Jesus in the 1st Century AD.

But, since almost all of the known world (known by the Jews at least) was under Roman rule at the time, citizens of one country could migrate to another country in the Roman Empire without being illegal aliens.

Jesus did not approve of causing people to break the law on purpose. The illegal aliens in the United States of America knew they would be breaking the law before they got here.

Posted by: Joe Allen Doty | May 13, 2008 2:50 PM

PS
By the way, Jesus also says drunkards, prostitues, tax collectors, "illegal aliens," etc. will get to heaven before you us good, law abiding, Christian, church going peoples!

It's in the Bible! And Jesus says this!

You want to talk about "illegal,"...

...well, we illegally went into a sovereign nation, i.e. Iraq, under the "leadership" of a president who claims to be a "Christian" from a "Christian" nation.

Thousdands of our troops have been killed, maimed, injured, wounded, etc. not to mention all the pain, suffering, violence, destruction, havoc we, the U.S., a so-called "Christian" nation, with the exception of the anti-war/peace/faith based movement and peoples, whose voices are censored, dimmed, quieted, shunned, etc. by a state controlled media, have caused upons tens of thousands, some estimates go as high as 200,000 Iraqi men, mostly women and innocent children killed.

I don't agree with everything Re. Wright says; yet when he speaks "truth to power," i.e. Delane, Joeke, and Joe Allen, you can't handle it!

Posted by: Jose | May 13, 2008 3:18 PM

this raid has given a lot of credence to a lawsuit brought against pilgrams pride. the suit says that pilgrams pride keeps wages artifically low by hiring illegal aliens. those of you that like this is a victumless crime should think again. remember supply and demand. roger

Posted by: roger | May 13, 2008 4:14 PM

Being here without documentation is a misdemeanor offense, as is working without documentation. Our dysfunctional laws make the punishment for these offenses unbelievably extreme and often not up for review of circumstances. (Remember, every time we go over the speed limit, we are also committing a misdemeanor offense. How many of us consider ourselves criminals and feel that our children justly should now suffer?)

The people who were taken into custody will be held, sometimes over a year, in prisons throughout our country. Due process of law, and basic humane health care will be problematic. When the actual deportation comes, many of these people have no homes at all in their country of origin. (If they are lucky, they may have some family members left there to help them.) And those are just a few of the facts they now are dealing with.

I am very thankful for the stand the Methodists and Catholics have taken, and as they listen truly to God and obey His call to help His "least of these".

Posted by: janible | May 13, 2008 4:38 PM

It's time to realize that it isn't those who have broken the immigration laws that are the problem: the laws themselves are the problem. They aren't enforceable because they don't recognize reality. There is no legal way for those with little education and minimal skills to enter the country and work legally.

Until we recognize that the laws need to change and change them, we will simply perpetuate the "problem" of undocumented immigration. And we will continue to see people using "illegal" status for convenient scapegoating.

Jose is right--we need comprehensive reform now, and we need an end to the raids. I hope and pray that the next president will call for a moratorium on workplace raids and deportations that break families apart.

Peace,

Posted by: Don | May 13, 2008 5:03 PM

The poverty problem in Mexico to Central America will not be solved by bringing them all here either -- legally or illegally. That's really where we should put our efforts.

I do agree with Pastor Jeff -- that those who smuggle them in, those who hire illegals (especially those that exploit them) should be held accountable at the highest level.

I'm only against the raids if they only focus on the illegals and NOT the management. Employers should be expected to obey the laws and pay their workers a fair and living wage.

As for Jose's comments -- two wrongs don't make this right.

Posted by: frankie | May 13, 2008 5:34 PM

don, should we not have a broder? frankie, who decides what fair wage is? roger

Posted by: roger | May 13, 2008 5:48 PM

Roger, the laws are unenforceable. It has nothing to do with the border itself. It has everything to do with the fact that there's a demand for the work and no legal way for the workers to enter the US and work.

We want a manageable immigration policy. The current "policy" is really no policy at all.

Is it really too much to ask that we have a border and immigration policy that's both manageable and enforceable, so we can know who is coming across the border and why? Or is it preferable to continue the current non-policy so those who are inclined to scapegoat can continue doing so?

Frankie wrote: As for Jose's comments -- two wrongs don't make this right. Who or what is in the wrong? Those who are trying to provide for their families, or the unworkable laws that keep them from working here legally? Our job as Christians is to care for the marginalized and despised. If there's a marginalized, despised group in the USA today, it's undocumented immigrants.

I have no doubt where Jesus would stand on this matter.

Peace,

Posted by: Don | May 13, 2008 5:59 PM

Is it unrealistic to think that helping to improve the quality of life in countries from which these people come is a better response?

Posted by: Robb | May 13, 2008 9:07 PM

Robb: Isn't that what we went to Iraq for? Maybe we should invade Mexico and set up a democracy there. It might even reduce the trade deficit what with all the oil there.
(Nation building doesn't work.)

Roger: Didn't the place you worked for ever hear of salaries? Lots of people work 70 hours/week and don't get paid overtime.

Pastor Jeff

Posted by: Pastor Jeff Staples | May 13, 2008 10:00 PM

Robb: Isn't that what we went to Iraq for? Maybe we should invade Mexico and set up a democracy there. It might even reduce the trade deficit what with all the oil there.
(Nation building doesn't work.)

I don't think that fighting a war there is "improving the quality of life" like I suggested. I'm going to go out on a limb here, but no, I wouldn't support sending troops to Mexico, haha. Nevertheless, it seems my question was answered, that my thoughts were unrealistic.

I honestly have no idea how to resolve the immigration issue in my own heart. I don't see any way to be behind both God and country in this issue. That's why I asked. I wasn't supporting any ideology.

Posted by: Robb | May 13, 2008 10:27 PM

Jesus couldn't have given hot spit for legal, illegal. He cared about people. How hard is that to figure out from ALL those scriptures? And, come on, people are not illegal any more than they are bastards any more. They may well do things that are not considered illegal by others, but they are human beings only. And AT LEAST since the Incarnation, that is no minor triumph...except in a culture that sold slaves and separated families from the beginnings of our history. We are a broken folk. Jesus could do a lot more work here.

Posted by: Fr. Bruce Clanton SDS | May 14, 2008 12:10 AM

No sympathy here for illegal aliens. Fact of the matter is they have broken a multitude of our laws and deserve to be treated as criminals. Forget the 'separation of families' ploy so spare me the sob stories. FACT: illegal aliens themselves are responsible for any family problems they may encounter. Deal with it.

(1) Violating the immigration law is a CRIME
(2) Forging documents is a FELONY CRIME
(3) Passing forged documents is a FELONY CRIME
(4) Stealing ID is a FELONY CRIME
(5) Using stolen ID is a FELONY CRIME

Illegal Immigration IS A CRIME:

8 U.S.C. 1325 = illegal entry.
" (a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection;
misrepresentation and concealment of facts Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both."

Posted by: zeezil | May 14, 2008 2:51 AM

After careful review, anyone with a even a modicum of logic can come to no other conclusion: illegal immigration must be halted, illegal immigrants here now must be deported and legal immigration needs decreased from the approx. 2 million allowed in per year currently.

Please review the following report on the FISCAL COST OF IMMIGRATION by economist Edwin Rubenstein released in April 2008:
http://www.esrresearch.com/Rubensteinreport.pdf

A partial summary of the report:

The impact on 15 Federal Departments surveyed was: $346 billion in fiscal related costs in FY 2007.

Each immigrant cost taxpayers more than $9,000 per year.

An immigrant household (2 adults, 2 children) cost taxpayers $36,000 per year.

Legal immigrants were not separated out from illegal immigrants for the fiscal impact study, but if they had been, the fiscal cost per ILLEGAL immigrant would be even more shocking than the figures quoted above.

The most extensive and authoritative study, prior to economist Edwin Rubenstein's "The Fiscal Impact of Immigration" (April 2008) , is the National Research Council (NRC)’s The New Americans: Economic, Demographic and Fiscal Effects of Immigration (1997).

The NRC staff analyzed federal, state, and local government expenditures on programs such as Medicaid, AFDC (now TANF), and SSI, as well as the cost of educating immigrants’ foreign- and native-born children.

NRC found that the average immigrant household receives $13,326 in federal annual expenditures and pays $10,664 in federal taxes—that is, they generate a fiscal deficit of $2,682 (1996 dollars)per household.

In 2007 dollars this is a deficit of $3,408 per immigrant household.

With 9 million households currently headed by immigrants, more than $30 billion ($3,408 x 9 million) of the federal deficit represents money transferred from native taxpayers to immigrants.

Our national immigration policies have to work for the United States. While improving the plight of the world’s poor is a laudable goal, the finite resources we have available to fulfill that goal would be swamped if there wasn’t some orderly and manageable system in place to limit entry into the United States to what this nation can actually support. The more illegal aliens that are permitted to subvert the immigration system, the fewer immigrants we can accommodate who might actually produce a positive benefit for our country.

The more we become a nation of illegal immigrants, the deeper we fall into anarchy.

Posted by: zeezil | May 14, 2008 2:54 AM

zeezil wrote: "it seems far too easily forgotten that one must be an U.S. citizen in order to warrant the rights afforded to a citizen. That should be the end of discussion."

But one needs only be a child of God in order to warrant basic human rights; it is not only US citizens that deserve our love and compassion.

zeezil wrote: "we cannot afford to turn a blind eye to those who enter illegally, ignore our laws and seek to subvert our culture and national values. We welcome those who follow the rules, learn the English language, and respect our sovereignty."

Immigrants do not come to America to subvert our culture; they come in order to try to earn a better living than what they would be able to find in their place of nativity. And it is exclusive and condescending to say that any immigrant must respect "our" sovereignty; Jesus is the only with a true claim to sovereignty.

zeezil quotes: John 10:1

That verse is taken wildly out of context. We need to read to at least verse 10 in order to understand what Jesus was saying. It is the beginning of a parable, not a literal imprecation against people who don't use doors.

"I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice." Jesus used this figure of speech, but they did not understand what he was telling them.
Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. (John 10:1-10, NIV)

Posted by: Ophelia | May 14, 2008 3:55 AM

"Second, it seems far too easily forgotten that one must be an U.S. citizen in order to warrant the rights afforded to a citizen. That should be the end of discussion."-zeezil

At the risk of starting a discussion that is already ended as far as your concerned; Are there any "inalienable rights" endowed by virtue of being human granted to non-US citizens? What rights are unique to US citizens?

I can't imagine Jesus saying some of the things said about fellow images of God.

Pastor Jeff

Posted by: Pastor Jeff Staples | May 14, 2008 8:48 AM

It never ceases to amaze me that as Americans, we enjoy the best of the best, (even those of us who are experiencing troubles are still usually better off than we would be if we were somewhere else), yet some of us seem to live in a constant state of fear and resentment.
If you want this problem solved, push Congress to reform the current system of laws which have caused the problem.

If you just want to punish people and force them out of the country you are attempting the impossible.

Making the undocumented live in fear and pain will not make your problems go away. It will not keep jobs from disappearing over seas.It will not put food on your table or shoes on your children's feet. It will not make America the land of the free and the brave. It will not justify you to criminalize them. It will not make you more secure. It will not help you at all. It will just make all of us afraid and mean.

Posted by: wayne | May 14, 2008 10:33 AM

The immigration laws are enforceable--and we've failed miserably at that--but they are enforceable. We enforce them at airports all the time. I know you don't like the laws, but they are legitimate.

However, it is very workable to only hire workers authorized to work in the U.S. I don't know how an employer can get I-9 documents without it. (I just had to turn over a former employee file - from long before I worked here -- to the local Sheriff's office to prove she'd been involved in identity theft.)We now have to verify social security numbers on all of our employees, and it's for more reasons than illegal aliens.

My city just conducted a raid on a restaurant yesterday. The owners (it was a Japanese restaurant)were basically holding indentured servants -- who they paid very poorly and abused as employees. Without these raids, employers like these would never get stopped. There is a visa available for employees of these conditions -- a type T -- is what they said on the news, so these innocent employees can still stay and work towards their green cards.

While we are obviously a hypocritical nation, I don't think we should stop arresting drunk drivers just because we let a lot of people get away with speeding.

Finally -- it does seem that meat-packing plants are the latest job choice for illegal immigrants. I know they raided a nearby town about two years ago, and I've heard of it across the nation periodically since.

We do have a ton of citizens who need those kinds of jobs. All those factory workers who complain their jobs have left can do that kind of work and need that kind of work. They'd be glad for it.

Posted by: frankie | May 14, 2008 10:52 AM

Rounding up the "illegals" and giving their employers and the consumers of the products of their labor a free pass is like a police sting that arrests the prostitutes and gives the pimps and johns a free pass. The strategy is that we find the most vulnerable population to scapegoat while ignoring how we ourselves play a part in perpetuating the problem.

The problem is, really, that the immigrants here are undocumented and are thus ripe for exploitation. That expoloitation hurts them in obvious ways that don't need to be enumerated here, and hurts society by driving down wages and keeping large numbers of people in perpetual poverty with few rights.

The only practical and humane solution I can see is to get the undocumented immigrants "into the system" ASAP so that they can receive American wages, pay income tax, and get their health care and other needs met without fear of arrest. I call it a road to citizenship; if you want to call it amnesty, that's fine, but the "punishment" mentality ought to be scrapped as it does not address the problem.

Sorry, but I can't help thinking that fear of and prejudice toward "the other" are what is behind the gridlock. Just please don't justify your fear and prejudice as the "Christian position."

Posted by: I and I | May 14, 2008 11:17 AM

Just one other point: given what frankie wrote, "raids" are fine with me as long as the exploiters get punished and the undocumented are dealt with humanely.

Posted by: I and I | May 14, 2008 11:28 AM

"Italics mine. Note that the phrases are "no person/any person," not "no citizen/any citizen.""

The current administration has written and issued legal guidance that only citizens are considered persons for legal purposes.

Further, corporations have all the advantages of such citizenship without similar accountability.

Wall Street speculators and corporations, accountable to no one but themselves (stock owners) love cheap commodity labor. Whatever pushes the cost of this commodity down enhances profits for them. The human costs of this matter to them no more than the cost of any part of the commodity chain. People and their labor are no more than things to be bid down to the lowest possible level. If that means desperate workers without rights, regardless of their origin, legal status etc. are the cheapest, then they will be the most profitably used. In fact, the more desperate they become, the more valuable they are, because their cost will be even more reduced.

As for the public, get them to hate and blame one another as their living standards drop and more of the economic pie is transferred further into the hands of the elite.

Eviscerate the power of labor, reduce the minimum wage, decrease living standards through inflation which benefits the speculators and wealthy.

Wave the flag while you're doing it and you'll have them all feeding you to fatness while they become your indebted economic slaves.

Posted by: N. M. Rod | May 14, 2008 12:08 PM

"(Remember, every time we go over the speed limit, we are also committing a misdemeanor offense. How many of us consider ourselves criminals and feel that our children justly should now suffer?)"

If you are caught going over the speed limit, you are stopped. If you continue to go over the speed limit, you have your license taken away.

Similarly, if you illegally enter our country, you have to leave. I wouldn't advocate heavy penalties beyond that.

Really, this is apples and oranges (there must be some prominent website that uses the speeding canard), but if you are going to reach a comparison, this example does not advance your case.

"Even if you consider illegal immigants to be your enemies, aren't we still called to love them?"

Nobody said they were enemies.

Posted by: kevin s. | May 14, 2008 2:32 PM

wolverine: "To this day, Sojo has yet to address the effect that the migration of 10 million Mexicans to the US has had on Mexico, nor have they explored the effect that importing so many unskilled workers has had on low-income workers in the US and the families they support. These populations, near as I can figure, simply do not matter in Sojo's worldview."

Does anyone have any idea of how many African Americans live in the vicinity of Postville, Iowa? Do we have evidence that lower-class whites wanted work at the meat-packing plant but could not get it due to illegal immigrants who work more cheaply?

Cads: "We have plenty of low-wage qualified people living here that would gladly do the work if that was the only way they could make a living, but our welfare system makes it hardly worth the effort."

Cads, I urge you and anyone who shares this opinion to voluntarily go on welfare for six months. I've never done it but I have a brother who did for a period of time. It was a miserable existence for him, living in cheaply-built public housing, on a diet of lousy, unhealthy food. Socially, he was looked down upon as a parasite; every time he entered a grocery or convenience store the store manager followed him around to make sure he didn't steal anything. It took him years to get his confidence back.

Through my brother, I met a number of people also on welfare. Everyone of them, without exception, was desperate to get off welfare; many of them worked part-time for cash only to supplement their welfare checks.

Posted by: carl copas | May 14, 2008 2:52 PM

Carl copas,
"Does anyone have any idea of how many African Americans live in the vicinity of Postville, Iowa? Do we have evidence that lower-class whites wanted work at the meat-packing plant but could not get it due to illegal immigrants who work more cheaply?"

I'm originally from Northern Illinois. Within driving distance there were meat packing plants. At one time they paid a good though not great wage. When these plants started bringing in illegals to work in the plants the wages fell through the floor. At one time these were jobs that were sought out by workers in the community, not any more.

Jeff

Posted by: Jeff | May 14, 2008 4:13 PM

The plant will have most likely have to now higher legal workers at a higher wage as happened at other meat packing plants after immigration wages.

Imagine that. Paying higher wages to legal workers.

Sounds good to me.

A follower of Christ can easily treat an undocumented immigrant with dignity and respect as commanded in the Bible, while simultaneously supporting vigourous enforcement of existing immigration laws.

The dichotomy between government immigration policy and an individual's treatment of undocumented immigrants is easy to reconcile.

I do it all the time with my family and in community.

I have several family members whom I wish the government would deport. However, for familial peace reasons I cannot report my family members.

Posted by: Jay | May 14, 2008 4:47 PM

Kevin says: "If you are caught going over the speed limit, you are stopped. If you continue to go over the speed limit, you have your license taken away.

Similarly, if you illegally enter our country, you have to leave. I wouldn't advocate heavy penalties beyond that."

Jan says: Sadly, there are many other penalties beyond deportation, and they are often heavy. Extenuating circumstances are often not even heard. But, again, this is just part of the bureaucratic quagmire that passes as our immigration laws.

Kevin says: "Really, this is apples and oranges (there must be some prominent website that uses the speeding canard), but if you are going to reach a comparison, this example does not advance your case."

Jan says: I will assume that you aren't trying to be patronizing. The relevance between misdemeanor offenses should be obvious, since we don't treat the one area as "criminals", but too often the other is held up as one of the crimes of the century. Why else would people like Sheriff Joe of Maricopa county, Arizona, make catching "illegal aliens" his highest priority? And as for the implication that I found this "speeding canard" on some website, I should point out that every time I drive on I70, being passed by everything including a lot of trucks when I am speeding myself at 70 miles/hour, I feel frustrated at the double standard, and I have been making that drive weekly for the past three years. Writing it off because it doesn't convince you is fine, but it does make me wonder if you are the rare exception that sticks religiously to the speed limit.

I'll carry the analogy further. Say you have been speeding frequently, and decide you want to be righteous and follow the laws to the letter. You go in to renew your license, and the first thing you are asked is, "Have you ever gone over the speed limit in your life?". You want to be forthright and you answer honestly, "yes". The next thing you are told? Come back in ten years and apply for that driver's license. Oh, and pack a lunch: it will take us about five years to process your paperwork.

That is what happens right now if someone voluntarily returns home and tries to work with the system.

Posted by: janible | May 14, 2008 7:49 PM

The answer is simple: obey the law or pay the price, period! I fully support those enforcing our laws.

Posted by: Vernon | May 14, 2008 8:05 PM

"The dichotomy between government immigration policy and an individual's treatment of undocumented immigrants is easy to reconcile.

"I do it all the time with my family and in community.

"I have several family members whom I wish the government would deport. However, for familial peace reasons I cannot report my family members."

Yes, people are all for "justice" for others, but prefer "mercy" for themselves.

What hypocrisy. If you cannot stomach the horrible results for yourself, how can you countenance inflicting the same cruelty on others?

Posted by: N. M. Rod | May 14, 2008 8:46 PM

It's undeniable that illegals have increased supply for unskilled labor, thereby lowering wages for undereducated and unskilled citizens here legally. When welfare and unemployment benefits are close to equal to unskilled labor wages brought about by an oversupply of illegals, is it any wonder that welfare beneficiaries and the unemployed choose not to seek jobs that undocumented Mexicans will take for minimum wage? The law of supply and demand once again takes over. That being said, I feel I'm arguing to a brick wall and wasting my time trying to apply logic to those unwilling to even consider basic economics. Therefore, I've finally seen the light and will be joining Moderatelad on the sidelines, at least until June (It's like a horrible traffic accident; one can't help but look). I'm not saying I'm gone forever, but it's so frustrating, I've got to get away for awhile. Best to all.

Posted by: Cads | May 15, 2008 2:30 AM

Jeff, I'm not assuming too much. I have debated folks on this issue for over a year, and I know how many of them think. To many, it is little more than a law-and-order issue. And I'm not saying everyone has contempt for the families. But I know that some who have posted here in the past have expressed what I would call contempt--the bottom line for them is that they don't want "those people" living here. Finally, you make an error yourself--you apparently think I FAVOR illegal immigration? Not so! I just favor a way to deal with it that conforms to reality. Our current policy is so far from reality that it is unworkable.

That gets to your second point. The current laws aren't being enforced because they CANNOT be enforced. They are unrealistic. They don't recognize the real situations of real families, let alone the economic needs of the USA. You can throw all the money at border enforcement that you want; you can fortify that ridiculous border wall all you want, and it won't keep people from trying to come here so long as their own situations are so desperate and so long as there's a demand for the work they can do. (The Great Wall of China didn't keep the Mongolians out either.)

Nobody has demonstrated why it would be pointless to reform immigration laws, so I don't buy it.

Finally, yes, Jesus was referring to his disciples. But aren't almost all Latinos at least nominally Christian? I think my understanding of Matt. 25 stands.

There's a lot more that could be said, because this is a complex issue. It doesn't present itself well in the sound bite world, which is part of the problem. It's so easy to say "they're illegal; what else need be said?" but that ignores the complexities. All too many people, though, don't want to think any further than that.

Peace,

Posted by: Don | May 15, 2008 1:11 PM

Jeff, not everyone I have debated this topic with writes here on God's Politics, and I won't accuse them or name their names here in a public forum. And right now I cannot go back and dig up lots of comments here on God's Politics. But you'll find some on this post:

http://blog.beliefnet.com/godspolitics/2007/07/alexia-salvatierra-sanctuary-b.html#comments

You are right that I misread your comment about

When enforcing the current laws is unjust (because people are torn away from their families) then we need new laws. It's much more than a matter of trust. It's a matter of compassion and justice.

I don't believe most commentators would support the notion that the "least brethren" in Matthew 25 are limited to the Twelve.

Finally, I have heard enough statements that boil down to "we don't want these people here" that I won't back down on what I said. Maybe that doesn't apply to you, but it surely applies in many cases I know. And that isn't being simplistic.

D

Posted by: Don | May 15, 2008 5:58 PM

The answer is simple: obey the law or pay the price, period! I fully support those enforcing our laws.

Posted by: Vernon | May 14, 2008 8:05 PM

Would that also apply to the Randall Terrys of the world and the civil disobedience folks?

Or do we each just individually decide when we answer to a "higher power" or not?

And enough already w/ the quasi-dispensational spin on Matthew 25, Jeff.

Posted by: canucklehead | May 16, 2008 12:22 AM

"I feel I'm arguing to a brick wall and wasting my time trying to apply logic to those unwilling to even consider basic economics."

Well, Cads, sorry I'm so dumb. I thought you were one of the kinder dissenters that frequent this blog.

"...it's so frustrating, I've got to get away for awhile."

You'll be back sooner than you think.

Posted by: I and I | May 16, 2008 5:11 PM