January of '64 to August of '08....that's 48 years now, that the government has been waging the "War on Poverty" and still, we are told there has been no improvement. Talk about a quagmire!!!

Posted by: Brett | July 24, 2008 11:30 PM

Freiman wrote in Conservative Outcomes that freedom+religion+capitalism+education=success! We must insist that our young people take advantage of there education opportunities.

Not so fast. First, you have to have the hope that there is a way out. Then you need support from family and/or community. Then (especially if you're a "person of color"), you have to have attitudes changed and barriers removed by people in authority who are willing to give an opportunity in the first place.

The reality is that (and I say this as someone who grew up in the 1970s) I simply didn't have the same opportunities as someone who grew up in the suburbs just because I lived in the city -- and there are reasons for that. There is somewhat of a hypocrisy I detect about (mostly) suburbanites telling city folks how they ought to live but doing nothing to offer the same advantages they had.

Posted by: Rick | July 25, 2008 1:16 PM

Rosemary's thoughtful piece resulted in two totally irrelevant posts that I wish the moderator would remove (esp. the all-caps tantrum) followed by three with all the usual conservative platitudes. So here goes:

"that's 48 years now, that the government has been waging the "War on Poverty""

It was fought for about two years at most when LBJ decided to cut funding for it in order to pay for another war that was disastrous.

"and still, we are told there has been no improvement"

The so-called war on poverty should not have been expected to wipe out poverty. No government program can do that. But there have been improvements in the lives of many families who were helped by the programs. Most people who go on welfare stay on only for a short time, and without that assistance likely would fall into deep poverty. so yes, there have been improvements.

"Everyone in the US has the opportunity to work."

Would that it were so. That's pretty much what we liberals want--for every able-bodied adult to have the OPPORTUNITY to work at a job that can help them get out of poverty. In some places there are no jobs; for some people their skills levels are too low to get a meaningful job. Those are the problems we should all be working on.

"I am going to guess that anyone with a high school education has the ability to make more than $10 per hour."

Nonsense. If so, why would heads of households be working at McDonalds? Vow of poverty?

"pell grants and student loans are an ease to get for college."

Pell grants only cover about 30 percent of the costs of college. Student loans have higher interest rates than ever. Tell your conservative congressfolk to stop blocking student aid reform.

"If we would take some of the constrains that we have on business - we might be able to get more people employed."

No matter how many business tax cuts my state gives, folks like you keep repeating this like a broken record. Well, the Bush Administration as I write is trying to ease the contraints of employers exposing their workers to toxins. Hope that makes you feel better. Real heroic, huh? That oughta creat more (toxic) jobs.

"If we could make it a sliding scale for people to go from total dependancy to independancy - more might be able to navigate those waters."

No problem, that's being taken care of in the welfare system. Google "earned income disregard" and "TANF" to learn how things work.

"We need to keep that lawyers out of this process"

Glad you didn't forget to beat that bogeyman. But you forgot to bash immigrants.

Posted by: I and I | July 25, 2008 5:12 PM

I also want to encourage you to let go of your bitterness. I have no doubt that you've faced enormous obstacles, probably far greater than any I have faced.

Actually, I'm not bitter in the least. That said, I do not at all appreciate your smug, know-it-all, patronizing attitude, which has nothing to do with past hurts (which I personally don't have that many of). However, my desire for reconciliation is so strong I react passionately to anyone that comes up against it. If you attended my church for any length of time you'd change your tune in a hurry because many of my fellow parishioners have personally experienced what I'm talking about, more so than I.

Posted by: Rick | July 26, 2008 12:41 AM

Rick, I sincerely did not intend that as being smug. After reading it again, I can see how it came across that way. As for the "bitterness" comment, I was referring to this statement by you: "I simply didn't have the same opportunities as someone who grew up in the suburbs just because I lived in the city -- and there are reasons for that. There is somewhat of a hypocrisy I detect about (mostly) suburbanites telling city folks how they ought to live but doing nothing to offer the same advantages they had."

I mentioned the book because there seems to be a belief that the wealthy live this fantasy, movie star lifestyle, they live a life of ease and everything they have was handed to them. The book was an encouragement to me and I thought you might benefit from it as well.

Just curious though, could you define what you mean when you refer to you "desire for reconciliation?" What (and/whom) needs to be reconciled and in what fashion should it be done?

Posted by: Bradley | July 26, 2008 2:00 PM

When you say that Conservatives tend to think that they are "entitled to what they get" it is somewhat confusing.

Do I believe I am "entitled" to get something for nothing? Absolutely not.

However, when I bid a job and a customer gives me specifications to be met and I offer a price and we both agree on the terms, do I then believe that I am "entitled" to the payment I've earned upon completion of the work? Absolutely!

In the same way, the customer is "entitled" to receive the service and specifications that I agreed to give. (Although I always try to give more, because I want to have repeat customers and referrals.) Neither of us is "greedy" or has an "entitlement" attitude, although we both are entitled to something, the customer to a product or service and me to payment.

Although I am not rich, my business takes me into circles with wealthy people (both Conservative and Liberal) and I can honestly say that I have NEVER heard, either in public or private settings, a single wealthy person complain about ANYONE from ANY CLASS asking about "similar opportunities" as they have had.

However, I know of MANY wealthy people who have taken people from lower classes under their wing and invested time with them, taught them, given them books to read, helped them with financial emergencies, introduced them to new opportunities and contacts, taken them to lunch and coffee and taught them everything they know. I have experienced that personally and I see it happening all around me.

Posted by: Bradley | July 26, 2008 11:04 PM

Rick,
We Conservatives fight passionately, not because we believe that we are "entitled" to "call the shots." Quite the contrary, we do not want to call the shots for anyone.

It is your side that is determined to "call the shots" for everyone. We have the perspective of history to see what happens when Marxist ideas make there way into the government.

Under the guise of "helping the lower classes" they impose bondage and slavery on the entire population. Germany, The Soviet Union, North Vietnam, Laos, North Korea, China, everywhere that we have seen the WORST human rights abuses, the greatest misery among the people, the most depressing poverty, the most hopelessnes among the poorest of the poor, all of this occurs, not under capitalism, but under precisely what the left is proposing for this country as "progressive" ideas. Redistribution of wealth, planned economy, elimination of private property, none of this is new. It began long ago and was stated clearly in 1848 in The Communist Manifesto. There's nothing "new" or "progressive" about "change" when it amounts to "changing back" to the failed system that murdered more than 100 million innocent people in the last century, not including the many who perished of starvation as a result of the economic mess that it created!

You seem determined to show your ignorance by pretending to know me and lecturing me according to your carricature of me. You don't think I've been around many "African-Americans" (I can tell you that term is offensive to blacks whose ancestry is NOT African.) To be quite honest, the town I grew up in is a small Southern town where the population is slightly over 80% black. The community where I live now is about 45% black, so once again, your assumption is dead wrong. I am happy to debate you on issues, but when you continually make this personal by throwing out your ignorant assumptions about my life experiences, you show yourself a fool.

Furthermore, how pompous and arrogant you are and condescending to successful blacks! How dare you belittle the accomplishments of the many successful blacks in this country! I don't know whether you are black or white or what race you may be, but I can tell you that your attitude disgusts me. I am sickened that you, for the purposes of advancing your political agenda, would disregard the successes of hard-working blacks. Their lifetime of achievements brushed aside and called nothing, their struggles and tears overlooked so that you can say they didn't really accomplish anything, the white people gave it to them. You should be ashamed!!

Posted by: Bradley | July 27, 2008 9:19 AM

We Conservatives fight passionately, not because we believe that we are "entitled" to "call the shots." Quite the contrary, we do not want to call the shots for anyone.

Then why do you protest so much on this particular blog? Please -- that's what the movement born in the 1950s and began taking over the GOP in the 1960s intended to do from the start.

We have the perspective of history to see what happens when Marxist ideas make there way into the government.

Be advised that calling ideas that differ from yours "Marxist" is itself an ignorant insult and does not advance your viewpoint. The very same charge was made about Martin Luther King Jr., and many conservative whites hate him to this day -- as did Ronald Reagan, who said some inappropriate things upon his assassination.

You don't think I've been around many "African-Americans" (I can tell you that term is offensive to blacks whose ancestry is NOT African.) To be quite honest, the town I grew up in is a small Southern town where the population is slightly over 80% black.

That doesn't impress me in the least -- my family on both sides has Southern roots, and my mother and paternal grandparents even moved here to get away from the degradation that took place on a daily basis in that part of the country.

Furthermore, how pompous and arrogant you are and condescending to successful blacks! How dare you belittle the accomplishments of the many successful blacks in this country! I don't know whether you are black or white or what race you may be, but I can tell you that your attitude disgusts me.

Truth be told, I am myself African-American and a fairly conservative evangelical at that, and I can tell that your attitude disgusts most of us, not to mention the conservative white pastor of my interracial evangelical church which ministers extensively to the poor in my city. FYI, there isn't a single successful black man or woman that has made it without some kind of help, and for that reason the vast majority of us who do "make it" feel the obligation to give back and help others.

My late stepfather, who would have thrown you out on your ear had he heard you make those kind of comments, retired as the dean of the school of education at my college alma mater right before he married my mother; once he succinctly summed up the "conservative" way of doing things: "I got mine; you have yours to get!" He did quite well for himself -- eight college degrees, including two Ph.D's -- but refused to lord his position over others; he used his contacts and savvy to help plenty of other folks along in their lives. So I think I know a few things about "successful blacks."

Posted by: Rick | July 27, 2008 1:43 PM

Not one African American has succeeded without help or charity?

No, not one -- and for that matter, neither did you or anyone else. At least we have the humility to understand and accept that, and it's time for conservatives to admit that they, too, had all kinds of help to get where they are. Who got you your first job? College scholarships? The capital to start a business? I mean, do you really think it was all about you and your talents? C'mon, someone had to believe in what you were doing and point you in the right direction.

Posted by: Rick | July 27, 2008 6:39 PM

Please be assured that I do not call ideas "Marxist" simply because they differ from mine. I call them Marxist because they are the same ideas put forth by Karl Marx. You may have heard of him, "From each, according to his ability, to each, according to his need." or "Abolish all private property."

That, however, does not summarize the views of us "non-conservatives," as much as you would like to believe that's the case, and it is simply slanderous for you to insist that's the case. Besides, Marx noted that the political system was rigged to favor the wealthy, and during those days in Europe the church was heavily involved as well in affairs of state, which is why he concluded that "religion [was] the opiate of the masses." He was ultimately wrong in his conclusions but made some good points in the process -- even Martin Luther King Jr., who was strongly anti-Marxist, nevertheless admitted as such (and ironically, he was consistently called a Communist for supporting equality). Going further, if you read the Prophets -- my pastor preached through the entire book of Isaiah in 1999-2000 -- in context you would also call them Marxists because they raised the very same issues!

Did you ever consider that it's because people like you tell them over and over how bad off they are, how they don't have a chance, there are too many obstacles, their only hope is salvation from Washington in the form of a small welfare check?

I don't have to tell them -- they live that every day and they will tell you if you bother to listen -- but libertarians/conservatives rarely, if ever, do. See, you assume that it's we "liberal do-gooders" who make the poor aware of their plight and create resentment in the process; however, all they need to do is to go downtown during rush hour, turn on the TV or read the newspaper to remember how alienated they are from what we consider the "mainstream." And as for lack of opportunities, I'm a journalist by trade and covered many of the bedroom communities in my area, and I have seen first-hand what suburbanites have access to in comparison to folks in the city.

Posted by: Rick | July 27, 2008 9:46 PM

Rick, now you're calling me segregationist? What the heck?

I'm not saying that per se, but that's where your statements are taking you. Again, we're talking not really about the smokescreen of "economic redistribution" but power and authority -- because segregationists (who were undeniably conservative by your or anyone else's definition) knew they would no longer be in complete control were Jim Crow eradicated. As you said you lived in the South, I would expect that you would understand that; Southerners understand their history.

But when you want to have a real discussion of who wants to "call the shots" for everyone else:

I was specifically referring to folks who wanted their way at the expense of everyone else. None of those items on the list you rattled off is remotely about that -- they were implemented for the the good of society in general, also called justice -- which in my experience is a foreign concept to most conservative ideologues but very much a theme on this particular blog and very, very Scriptural. This is where and why conservatism/libertarianism is not compatible with the essential tenets of the historic Christian faith -- it got corrupted during the Protestant Reformation, which was as much about power politics as anything else.

Posted by: Rick | July 28, 2008 11:00 AM

i guess UN is doing a great job n m supporting it ....
poverty is the reason of lack of opportunity... they do have enough capability but lack of opportunity to rise...
I am voluntarily working with the United Nations on its Millennium Development Goals.
if thr any ways u can contribute thn plz let me knw
thanks.

Posted by: pooja | July 30, 2008 7:16 AM