'The Jungle' in Postville Affects Us All (by Brian Brandsmeier)
Agriprocessors, the largest kosher slaughterhouse in the U.S., has developed a longstanding reputation for abusing animals, workers, and laws. The abuses have been documented and decried by labor unions, religious leaders, animal rights groups, etc. Children as young as 13 work in dangerous conditions. Cows have their windpipes ripped out while they are still conscious and alive. Central Americans were hired illegally to work long hours with little pay. Untreated sewage has been dumped into the Postville, Iowa, water system. The list goes on and on.
In a bizarre twist of perverted justice, the Bush administration had the workers arrested while ignoring the egregious practices of the owners and operators. On May 20, 2008, Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents arrested 300 Guatemalan workers at the plant and charged them with a serious crime: "aggravated identity theft." Torn from their families, these Guatemalans are forced to choose between a two-year prison sentence or immediate deportation. The immediate deportation is considered "the deal."
So, while the Bush administration prosecutes people who are weak and poor to the fullest extent of the law, the wealthy owners and administrators continue business as usual. The CEO, Sholom Rubashkin, and the rest of the people who run the slaughterhouse bear the most responsibility for the abuses to people, animals, and laws, yet they remain in power and are not prosecuted. That is not the American way. These are not the values of our nation.
The plaque on the Statue of Liberty says, "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" This is a quote worth re-reading these days. As this statement makes clear, our nation is founded on principles of justice, equality, and helping the downtrodden.
Our Judeo-Christian tradition also compels us to care. Exodus 23:9 says, "You shall not oppress a resident alien; you know the heart of an alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt." Matthew 25:40 says, "Whatever you do unto the least of these my brethren, you do unto me." In Postville, there are many people who may be considered "resident aliens" or "the least of these." We're called to care for them because God cares about them.
We should also care because "we" are "them." "Our" lives outside of Postville are bound up in "their" lives inside of Postville. Martin Luther King Jr. said: "We are all caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied into a single garment of destiny." The apostle Paul said: "If one member of the body suffers, all suffer together with it; if one member is honored, all rejoice together with it." Our actions and inactions affect one another. Together we must act so honor can replace the suffering of us all.
Somehow, this perversion of justice in Postville must be addressed and transformed. We all deserve it. So here are five simple actions we can take:
(1) Pray
(2) Educate ourselves further about this complex situation by reading blogs such as Letters & Papers from Postville.
(3) Watch the free documentary Voice of a Mountain, which adds more context to the conversation about immigration reform.
(4) Enjoy high quality coffee from Juan Ana Coffee. This small coffee company in San Lucas Tolimán, Guatemala, helps to provide local people with land, jobs, and homes. It literally helps to provide land for the landless. Drink some coffee. Help people in poverty. Help reduce the need for immigration. Everyone wins!
(5) Donate money to St. Bridget's Parish, which is providing basic help to the families who are in crisis:
St. Bridget's Hispanic Ministry Fund
c/o Sister Mary McCauley
P.O. Box 369
Postville, Iowa 52162
Click here to watch Sojourners' video of Sister Mary of St. Bridget's, who has been ministering to immigrant families in Postville.
Brian Brandsmeier was born and raised in northeast Iowa. He was an English tutor in Postville while he was a student at Luther College. Brian just finished a master's degree in divinity at Eden Theological Seminary in Saint Louis, Missouri.
In a bizarre twist of perverted justice, the Bush administration had the workers arrested while ignoring the egregious practices of the owners and operators. On May 20, 2008, Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents arrested 300 Guatemalan workers at the plant and charged them with a serious crime: "aggravated identity theft." Torn from their families, these Guatemalans are forced to choose between a two-year prison sentence or immediate deportation. The immediate deportation is considered "the deal."
So, while the Bush administration prosecutes people who are weak and poor to the fullest extent of the law, the wealthy owners and administrators continue business as usual. The CEO, Sholom Rubashkin, and the rest of the people who run the slaughterhouse bear the most responsibility for the abuses to people, animals, and laws, yet they remain in power and are not prosecuted. That is not the American way. These are not the values of our nation.
The plaque on the Statue of Liberty says, "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" This is a quote worth re-reading these days. As this statement makes clear, our nation is founded on principles of justice, equality, and helping the downtrodden.
Our Judeo-Christian tradition also compels us to care. Exodus 23:9 says, "You shall not oppress a resident alien; you know the heart of an alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt." Matthew 25:40 says, "Whatever you do unto the least of these my brethren, you do unto me." In Postville, there are many people who may be considered "resident aliens" or "the least of these." We're called to care for them because God cares about them.
We should also care because "we" are "them." "Our" lives outside of Postville are bound up in "their" lives inside of Postville. Martin Luther King Jr. said: "We are all caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied into a single garment of destiny." The apostle Paul said: "If one member of the body suffers, all suffer together with it; if one member is honored, all rejoice together with it." Our actions and inactions affect one another. Together we must act so honor can replace the suffering of us all.
Somehow, this perversion of justice in Postville must be addressed and transformed. We all deserve it. So here are five simple actions we can take:
(1) Pray
(2) Educate ourselves further about this complex situation by reading blogs such as Letters & Papers from Postville.
(3) Watch the free documentary Voice of a Mountain, which adds more context to the conversation about immigration reform.
(4) Enjoy high quality coffee from Juan Ana Coffee. This small coffee company in San Lucas Tolimán, Guatemala, helps to provide local people with land, jobs, and homes. It literally helps to provide land for the landless. Drink some coffee. Help people in poverty. Help reduce the need for immigration. Everyone wins!
(5) Donate money to St. Bridget's Parish, which is providing basic help to the families who are in crisis:
St. Bridget's Hispanic Ministry Fund
c/o Sister Mary McCauley
P.O. Box 369
Postville, Iowa 52162
Click here to watch Sojourners' video of Sister Mary of St. Bridget's, who has been ministering to immigrant families in Postville.
Brian Brandsmeier was born and raised in northeast Iowa. He was an English tutor in Postville while he was a student at Luther College. Brian just finished a master's degree in divinity at Eden Theological Seminary in Saint Louis, Missouri.
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Comments
I'm one of those "liberals" who has no interest in hunting down illegal immigrants and ejecting them from the country. I know the arguments about taking jobs from Americans, costing taxpayers for schooling and medical treatment, "polluting our American culture" (whatever that is) by speaking their original tongue and honoring their own traditions.
I don't think that allowing and supporting Mexican immigrants in their celebrations for Cinco de Mayo, means we've got to stop honoring the 4th of July. I don't think that the welfare of American citizens is compromised because we give up our ability to pay for more "stuff" in order to pay for quality-of-life needs for others.
I also believe anti-immigrant anger focuses most on persons who are from non-white cultures.
Once again we come to an issue that infuriates "real Americans" who, at least in the case of the vigilante group, the Minutemen, take up arms, horses, and four-wheel drive vehicles to hunt down Mexican/Latin American immigrants and mete out whatever punishment the captor, at that moments, deems fit.
Try justifying any of this with examples from the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, the still, small voice of the Holy Spirit. The people of God "do justice, love mercy. and walk humbly with their God."
Posted by: openeyes | August 20, 2008 2:41 PM
This sounds a lot like Enron to me. Those who did most of the crimes lost a lot less than the ones who came to work every day and just did their jobs. The leaders were protected. The workers lost everything.
Just because I'm for legal immigration doesn't make me against justice, love or mercy or pro-white.
To me, it sounds like you want me to define justice in unjust terms. If you were to steal a car -- what do you think should happen to you when you got caught? They should say, "Oh he's had it for so long, we should do the right thing and let him keep it."
I think Agriprocessors should be sued for millions more than any case that's gone on so far and shut down. If they were the ones handing out fake social security numbers to the illegals, then yes, they should have to pay them retribution. I'm not for illegal business practices either.
Posted by: frankie | August 20, 2008 3:22 PM
They were illegal - they should not have been here. I have helped several families come to the US hoping to have a better life for them and their families - but the did it legally.
The minute the first person got to Iowa - illegally the whole thing started to fall apart. My dad taught me that if all the cards are on the top of the table and everyone is playing by the same rules - it is difficult to cheat. The minute someone strays from this paradyme, you have given the advantage away to someone.
Yes - the company was wrong in hiring them and they should be held accountable. So should the people who took the job when they knew they were not qualified to have a job in the US.
We need to clean house - make the employer hire only people that can legally work here in the US and stop the illegal immigration. just because they can walk here should not put these people at the front of the immigration line compaired to the family from Africa that wants to be a US citizen too.
vigilante groups - four-wheeler.
What a crock.
All the Time - God is Good
.
Posted by: big guy | August 20, 2008 3:28 PM
They were illegal - they should not have done that!
The abuses of animals, disregard of local laws for the treatment of sewage, underage works, and disregard or worker's rights. Many of those are felonies, but all the press and enforcement of misdemenor immigration crimes!
Perspective! I would be much more sympathetic to the concerns around illegal immigration if law enforcement paid more attention to the more serious crimes that impact all of us. There were legal workers that were abused, legal neighbors subjected to untreated sewage, and health hazards that legal residents had to endure. Go after the big fish that will keep doing this regardless of the worker's immigration status!
Oh yeah, if the government is serious about stopping illegal immigration why don't they slap a $500,000 fine per worker caught?! I remember now, they don't want to hurt "business" that funds their campaigns. Don't worry about getting caught, we will only punish the people you are victimizing, and you can easily get more of them!
Posted by: Doc | August 20, 2008 4:03 PM
Big guy, apparently you missed the point. You had all of one sentence about the employer's responsibility and the rest was the usual rant against the undocumented working families themselves. Try to feel at least as much anger toward the exploiters as you do to the exploited.
Posted by: I and I | August 20, 2008 4:21 PM
Posted by: Doc | August 20, 2008 4:03 PM
And what about all the US citizens that lost their jobs working at that facility? Because there were illegals available at a cheaper wage they were able to lay off (fire) legal citizens that had those jobs in the first place. What about those families that lost their income because of cheap labor that was in the area. Where did these families go when their jobs were terminated? What about the businesses that closed because the income in the area went down to the point that they were not purchasing the items that they were in the past.
Had the plant only had legal citizens - i don't believe that they would have gotten away with all that they have. They should be held accountable but you have to think of the legal citizens that might have still been empolyed there - you want more people on the welfare rolls?
Sewer - animal rights - etc. These items might have been taken care of if the climate of abuse had not been allowed to develope.
18 months ago because of a storm my house needed a new roof and siding. I was approach by several companies about doing the work. A friend of mine was also in the business and he gave me a bid that was higher than the others. He was busy so I went with another company. I remember asking the person if the workers they had were legal to be employed in the US. She assured me that they were. They were not - she lied - shame on me. This company got a lot of business in the area and even got the work doing new construction jobs. My friend had to close down his business and lay off 3 other workers. (legal ones) I am currnetly working with our township to make it so that this company and others like it will not be able to get work here. I can not file suit as she never wrote on the contract they they were legal employees. I have been able to stop them doing business with one of the builders in the area. Oh - yes I know that they contribute to political canidates - she had an old Kerry-Edwards sticker on her bumper.
Yes - illegals hurt many more people than we want to know about. I also pulled out money from my 401k to pay my friends mortgage for the next six months which is about what I would have paid him had I let him do my house.
That will never happen to me EVER again in my life time if I can at all help it.
Sadder but wiser
All the Time - God is Good
.
Posted by: big guy | August 20, 2008 4:29 PM
As someone who lives in Postville and has spent some time at St. Bridget with the people affected by the raid, I want to say thank you for this piece. Reading the reports and seeing videos of the situation simply do not compare with the transforming experience of being there and looking into the eyes of people who do not know when or if they will see family members again. The women who were released wearing ankle bracelets have no other means of income to feed their children than the help they receive at the church since they are not allowed to return to their countries and not allowed to work.
ANother thing you see is how the labels we give people, "illegal", serve to allow us to put them off as the other, as the criminal, as the outcast without a nation. Thusly, it is easier to dismiss their dignity as humans and deny them what are otherwise basic human rights, namely the right to put food on their family's table.
Most of the people who come here "illegally" are desperately poor and find that they cannot properly provide for their families in their home countries and make enormous sacrifices and take horrible risks out of love and care for their family. Especially in the case of Guatemala, where many of the people arrested were from, our government has had a history of involvement that has adversely affected the country's economy and helped to provide for a permanent class of extreme poverty. I find it ridiculous that in discussing the issue of immigration, these immigrants are most often compared to car thieves and common criminals.
All of this is not to say that the law was not broken. It was. However, when you start to look at the complex maze of regulations that make up immigration law, when you see that the number of work visas available for a year in the US is desperately low for the need we have for them, when you see families torn apart, you have to begin to ask if the law itself isn't unjust. The simple fact of the matter is that if you were to talk to most of those arrested they would tell you that they would like to be here legally but for whatever reason were made to feel that the system had no place for them.
After spending time at St. Bridget, the need for just, comprehensive immigration reform is patently evident to me. As Christians, we are called to be people of hope and people open to the Christ in "the least of these".
Posted by: Mike E. | August 20, 2008 4:37 PM
Posted by: I and I | August 20, 2008 4:21 PM
The company will have to pay now or in the future - I have seen that happen more often than not. The community will not stand for it.
But which came first and cause the problem?
Was it the company lack of standards when it comes to animal rights - sewage discharge - etc. Or was it when the adm found out they could replace the higher wage US citizens with undocumented workers that could be abused and forced to do things that they shouldn't have and had to keep silent because of the threats of the company?
I believe if the workers were legal - the adm would have been held to a higher standard than they had to with the illegals.
Everything on the top of the table playing my the same rules. Change one part of either principle, you are asking for trouble.
All the Time - God is Good
.
Posted by: big guy | August 20, 2008 4:45 PM
Posted by: Mike E. | August 20, 2008 4:37 PM
My heart does go out to them and I have sent money to various organizations that help people like these. But are these people more important or better than the people in Africa that would like to come here? Quotas are low according to you - let you congress person know - work with the system.
I like structure - guidlines - restrictions. It keeps the playing field level and safe for all concerned. When they come here illegally - they show that they have little respect for our country or the people that immigrated here a few years earlier - legally. As I have shown in prior post - it hurts businesses that are empolying people that are supporting families. It will allow business people that will make a buck no matter who they hurt in the process a free hand because they can abuse someone who has already broken the law. Two wrongs will never be right.
We have to stop the bleeding of the US at the source - the borders.
All the Time - God is Good
.
Posted by: big guy | August 20, 2008 4:59 PM
big guy
You are much more optimistic than I that these abuses would not have occured if there were only legal residents employed. The abuses the committed against humans, animals, and the community, are severe enough that I don't believe they were crimes of opportunity triggered by available illegal immigrants. They are crimes of greed and disregard for societal norms, made even more shocking by the religious underpinnings of the business. The pervasiveness of the abuses runs well beyond a business owner simply trying to save money on wages, if that were the only impact(as it most often is) I would be less concerned.
The simply statements that we simply need to get rid of all illegal immigrants and everything would be fine, is naive. Simply math shows that with the current unemployment numbers, if we deported all 12+ million illegal immigrants we would not have enough people to fill the available jobs (this ignores most economic theory that says unemployment below 3% cannot be achieved on a wide or prolonged basis). The answer is comprehensive reform including a dramatic increase in the number of legal immigrants. I agree with you that if you bring workers openly and through legal channels, the risk of exploitation decreases, and reduces the need or desire to illegally cross border.
Posted by: Doc | August 20, 2008 5:27 PM
What I want to know is how this company passes this treatment of animals and humans off as "kosher"!? Aren't there pretty strict rules about what passes as kosher food?
Posted by: Eric | August 20, 2008 5:58 PM
The several comments that claim that jobs performed by persons unauthorized to work created the bad conditions they were all working in belies the reality of not only Postville but the rest of the country in which "cheap" labor is sought and cannot be exported to another shore.
If US citizens were sitting on the sidelines in rural USA watching their jobs be "stolen" from them, why did not those droves flood that plant when 300 jobs suddenly opened up? Why is it that now, rather than unauthorized Guatemalans, it is "authorized" Somali workers that are doing the jobs, not US citizens? The claim that "illegals" (sic) are stealing jobs from US citizens that would do them is full of holes, yet it keeps getting used to - as one commenter noted - dehumanize and demonize an entire class of people.
There was a time in this country when the masses would have stood on our Judeo-Christian prophetic tradition and called out those in power who exploit the powerless. Now, those who would call themselves Christian while dehumanizing others in the same breath are complicit with the power brokers.
Posted by: divineconomy | August 20, 2008 6:18 PM
"vigilante groups - four-wheeler.
What a crock."
Please come visit Arizona and I will take you out to the desert regions where this 'crock' with semi automatic weapons will run you over in their hummers and atvs (often in violation of weapons and protected lands laws) so you can see first hand exactly what is in the 'crock'.
Then we can also converse with people whose feet are blistered and bleeding because their families are starving but our immigration policies give them no possible way to "do it legally". Come look into the eyes of a 14 year old boy and hear the story of how his grandmother is home taking care of his sisters and he is the only family member capable of working to support them. Listen to him while you bandage his feet and splint his broken arm.
Nobody promised anyone that Christianity would be easy or give easy answers. There is meant to be a cost to discipleship and the people of St Briget's are living that out.
Posted by: divineconomy | August 20, 2008 6:31 PM
I don't feel it's dehumanizing to call them illegals. They are here illegally. Maybe if we used the term more often, people would see the consequences of not renewing their visas or coming without proper papers.
I also think the people and not the animals are the important part of this story.
When you read the book of Acts 22, Paul's Roman citizenship meant something -- because citizenship has always meant a lot. Our laws protect citizens and people who are here legally, but they often cannot protect people who come illegally. But Paul was pretty big into obeying the laws of the land.
I'm not afraid of them taking my jobs, and I doubt most educated people are.
I also don't eat kosher food, but even I know there are very strict guidelines on what's kosher and this company clearly violated that.
Posted by: Fay | August 20, 2008 6:58 PM
Big Guy- I do not see the need to choose between the hispanics arrested in POstville and your friends in Africa. We are all connected and do not need false choices such as this. One of my favorite quotes comes from Gerard Straub:
"We are all brothers and sisters, children of the same Creator, and to set ourselves up as higher or better than others is a subtle form of blasphemy. We are all connected, one with all of creation and the Creator. If one amongst us is diminished, we are all diminished."
Eric- Your question is one that is being discussed very heatedly in Jewish circles. There is a very strong movement afoot to have their Kosher certification revoked.
Peace and all things good.
Posted by: Mike E. | August 20, 2008 6:59 PM
If the Postville plant is indeed committing all those abuses, by all means, they should be prosecuted. That says nothing about whether illegal aliens should be allowed to enter and work in the country.
Posted by: Gordon | August 20, 2008 7:47 PM
Mike E - That is good to hear (about the Jewish community revoking the kosher designation).
We all need to pay more attention to where our food comes from. Many of the meat products we buy from large corporations come from animals raised in horrible conditions and slaughtered by workers that are given the barest of protections. Try to buy locally from merchants you trust as much as possible. It may cost a little more, but it's more humane, plus you benefit your local economy. Also, we'd probably all benefit if we cut down on the amount of meat we eat anyway.
Posted by: Eric | August 20, 2008 8:07 PM
Posted by: Mike E. | August 20, 2008 6:59 PM
I do not see the need to choose between the hispanics arrested in POstville and your friends in Africa.
I don't think so either. The challenge is that the people that we helped come to the US and from the former Soviet block nations had to fill out the paperwork first and pay the fees. I believe that all who desire to come to the US should have a chance, a fair and equal chance to come here. Those that are here illegally are not playing fair compaired to the ones that are coming from Africa. Is it fair that just because you can walk into this country you should be given a 'go to the head of the line' card? Why not work with these countries and make it so that we could bring the jobs to them - wouldn't that be the better answer? I am for immigration - but it has to be fair for all no matter their country of orgin.
God is Good - All the Time
.
Posted by: big guy | August 20, 2008 8:21 PM
Posted by: Gordon | August 20, 2008 7:47 PM
I agree - the Postville plant should be cited and brought to justice. This plant should remain open for business so that the people in the area can be employed. The management of the plant and the nationality of the workers are seperate issues.
All the Time - God is Good
.
Posted by: big guy | August 20, 2008 8:24 PM
Jimmy please - you're killing me.
Articles on photos of the Spanish Team and Postville IW? Yes - we can and should talk about these issues.
But one of the best meetings in the last week or so in CA. The Showdown at Saddleback and you are silent - you have to have something to say on the don't you? Surely you could write something about our friend Rick Warren and his bringing these two together.
This is hot stuff and you are missing it. Unless that is your objective - to ignore it totally - WHY?
OK - you passed on Snow - fine.
I want to hear your take on what the two had to say at Saddleback - is Friday too soon for you?
All the Time - God is Good
.
Posted by: big guy | August 20, 2008 8:50 PM
big guy,
I don't get your constant harping on the Saddleback forum. I'm sure one of the regulars will write something on it, but not every commentary must be written within days of an event. There's something to be said for waiting several days and thinking something through before firing off one's initial thoughts.
We're so used to immediate reaction because of modern day technology. We expect instant commentary and in-depth analysis without giving anyone time to think. For all we know Jim Wallis is on vacation with his family. I think you need to ease up a little.
Posted by: Eric | August 20, 2008 10:14 PM
I wonder which of you anti-immigrant bloggers will be the first to volunteer for the grunt jobs that "Americans" don't want. Like roofing in 100 degree weather, or slaughtering animals, cleaning other peoples' dirty plates at restaurants. Anyone raise your hand yet? Oh yeah, low wages to boot.
I"ve noted this before, but anyone who believes in free trade is a hypocrite if he also doesn't believe that the borders should be open at the same time. Isn't labor and human capital part of the great capitalistic equation?
Posted by: ando | August 20, 2008 10:31 PM
Posted by: Eric | August 20, 2008 10:14 PM
Russert died unexpectantly and within 36 hours there was a story on Sojo. Snow left the White House and we all knew why - they could have had someething in the can ready to go - they didn't - whatever.
This event at Saddleback was well promoted and Wallis and Co all knew about it. They could have had an outline ready to go and just flesh it out.
I believe that there is a reason why there hasn't been anything on about it - Obama did not come across as well as some had hoped. He did great on some issues or questions and was too political or vage on others. I think Wallis might be choosing his words very carefully and that might be the hold up. I could be wrong and often am. (I predicted that Edwards was going to be the Dem canidate - wrong)
Wallis doesn't miss too many things that are timely - this is just too interesting.
All the Time - God is Good
.
Posted by: big guy | August 20, 2008 10:54 PM
ando -
I wouldn't want to work at any of those jobs, but I still think the immigration law should be enforced.
Posted by: Gordon | August 20, 2008 10:58 PM
ando,
I have worked those jobs, and I think the immigration laws should be enforced.
Posted by: Bradley | August 21, 2008 2:03 AM
We need immigration reform that allows for all immigrants who want to come to this country that are willing to work and learn English. The demand for labor should dictate how many immigrants come to this country not some arbitrary quotas set by Washington. With that said, we still have laws and we need to enforce them.
As it has been pointed out, if the big wigs at Agriprocessors have committed crimes they should be punished. I don't agree with rich vs poor summation of the events here.
"I wonder which of you anti-immigrant bloggers will be the first to volunteer for the grunt jobs that "Americans" don't want"
Immigrants don't "volunteer" for these jobs. They agree to take them for pay.
Posted by: DITE | August 21, 2008 2:44 AM
Big Guy, pipe down! Eric is right. My bet is that most of the Sojo crew is on vacation, like much the entire city of DC during August. There is no back room decision to omit coverage of the Warren event. You're reading too much into its absence. Speaking of absence, weren't you banned from posting anyway because your continuous mean-spirited and off topic comments? My guess is that Sojo knows full well what the rest of us know, Big Guy = Moderatelad.
Posted by: Annoyed | August 21, 2008 7:13 AM
As a person with a family and unempolyed at the time because the Dems in St Paul can not get their act together on funding education at a basic level. I am looking for any job and have applied for positions that pay half of what I was making just to be able to make the house payment. We are about 6 months away from putting the house on the market because we will not be able to afford to live here. (considering putting a Kidney on Craigs List - lol) If there was a job like that in my area - I would apply for it beacause 30% of something is better than a 100% of nothing.
All the Time - God is Good
.
Posted by: big guy | August 21, 2008 9:24 AM
Posted by: Annoyed | August 21, 2008 7:13 AM
Back off - OK. In this day and age of innernet - one can work even if you are on vacation. I do hear that Jim's book is selling a little better than Nancy's - he could still be on 'tour'. As for my handle - whatever but please get it straight. Conservative people that are view as 'mean-spirited' as 86'd. Liberal and mean-spirited - they are the darlings of Sojo. For what Mod-lad and Wolverine said on this site and how some goaded or labed them and they were alloed to remain - speaks louder than anyones words.
All the Time - God is Good
.
Posted by: big guy | August 21, 2008 9:45 AM
Ando --
What's your point? I did manual labor when I entered the workforce and had no other credentials. Then I broke my back getting an education so I wouldn't have to break my back every day. You don't have to be here illegally to do manual labor. If I owned a restaurant, I'd do the dishes. My husband and I dream of owning a Bed and Breakfast one day -- I'll do dishes and laundry, take out the trash, etc.
I work hard every day (providing services to illegals by the way)so I don't have to live outside and can have indoor plumbing.
The guys who reroofed my house the last time were what many would call priviledged white folks -- they were born here and have their own business.
Posted by: fay | August 21, 2008 10:36 AM
Ok Big Guy, I'll bite.
I saw some of Saddleback. The thing I don't like about those things is that candidates lie. What a candidate says in a church isn't nearly as interesting to me as what he says at a women's health care clinic, or on almost any other platform in America.
So now we have our soundbites of their faith statements. I'm sure they prepared them carefully.
I did think it was a well-organized debate, etc. I do wish the pieces I saw (and they were all being analyzed) were about more of the issues and not their personal stuff so much. Their moral failure didn't impress me as much as who they wouldn't have appointed as a judge, etc.
I also don't think political debates can really be won -- since winning is in the eye of the beholder.
Posted by: frankie | August 21, 2008 10:44 AM
Ando,
The problem with the "Americans won't do these jobs" argument is that the reason Americans won't do these jobs isn't because the jobs are tough (there are lots of Americans working on unionized road crews in the middle of a hot summer), it's because the wages are so low. Immigrants will take the jobs because the wages are actually much more than what they could earn back in their home country. Americans would fix roofs and do dishes if the wages were higher.
The problem with the argument you're making is that it leaves you with two choices: 1) keep importing low wage labor that can be exploited or 2) raise wages for all workers, which results in immigrant workers being priced out of the job market.
By the way, I'd be very open to the idea of opening the boarders more so that people could go back and forth for work purposes legally.
Posted by: Eric | August 21, 2008 10:58 AM
Eric - I would agree with that. Make it easier for people to cross and recross the border for work purposes. There would have to be some oversight to assure the system didn't get abused, but it would be the best possible solution IMO.
Posted by: Gordon | August 21, 2008 11:51 AM
I'd be open to that if they can figure out a way to track it. People are here now with expired visas (a totally solvable problem in my opinion). But as they say, we can find people now like never before, so there's really no excuse for it.
Bringing people in undocumented is a totally short-sighted solution, since there's no way for them to become documented once they get here.
Posted by: frankie | August 21, 2008 11:58 AM
Gordon,
Yes, the time that a potential immigrant has to wait in order to get the proper documents is ridiculous. If we could find a way to process people quickly through the immigration system so that they could come here to work it would be ideal. With proper work visas it would be a lot harder for them to be exploited too.
Posted by: Eric | August 21, 2008 12:00 PM
Eric - I really think a law to that effect would pass muster, even with people as conservative as I, as long as it did not include an automatic "path to citizenship" for illegals.
Posted by: Gordon | August 21, 2008 12:25 PM
Big Guy --
I'm sorry you're out of work. I had to take a huge cut about a year ago. I've made up about half that loss in a huge array of events at the temp job I took. It stinks to take a cut in pay at the same time prices are increasing exponentially.
You will find another job.
Let me know how I can pray -- you may want a kidney for one of your kids later.
Posted by: frankie | August 21, 2008 12:32 PM
Posted by: frankie | August 21, 2008 12:32 PM
Thanks for the encouragement! We have gone through this before and I believe there is one more time before I retire - if I can. I pary that all will find employment so that they can keep body and soul together and maybe even fulfill a few dreams.
Kidney - not that I drank a lot - but they made want one from a Mormon.(lol)
All the Time - God is Good
.
Posted by: big guy | August 21, 2008 1:33 PM
Posted by: frankie | August 21, 2008 10:44 AM
I also don't think political debates can really be won -- since winning is in the eye of the beholder.
Personally - I don't think in debates or interviews that you get a true winner or looser. But they can 'mis-speak' and that does shead a little more light on the subject. I am a conservative - DAH, I am sure that many know that one. I respect the canidate on both sides for the most part. I believe in the system and when the election is over - the people have spoken and we all win. (not like some of my high school liberal friends who will talk about how dumb the voters are when a Rep wins - I know - they both do it)
BHO blew is royally when he used the 'pay rate' comment. Tell me you don't know. Tell me you don't want to answer. Tell me that you are not going to answer but you believe in the 'womens right to choose from the 1st tri to the 3 tei'. But define it for me so that I can talk about it with you or others. Pay Rate - too much of life is above his pay rate if he can't give me an answer that will allow discussion.
He gave some very good answer and I know more about how he thinks in some areas and how he feels about families.
The LoveFest of Liberals on CNN with Wallis - OK but not as effective in knowing the canidate as the interview with Rick Warren. Obama had the chance to be direct and to the point and he went vague and political. This was not the forum to do that.
I will be interesting to see what Wallis and Co have to say.
All the Time - God is Good
.
Posted by: big guy | August 21, 2008 1:44 PM
Make it easier for people to cross and recross the border for work purposes. There would have to be some oversight to assure the system didn't get abused, but it would be the best possible solution
Gordon, you and I agree on more than one thing.
Peace,
Posted by: Don | August 21, 2008 2:06 PM
Another that could be done is shining a light on the abuses by Agriprocessors, until they stop: Encourage a boycott of their products, or find out who their accounts are and let them know what violations are occurring there.
Posted by: Nance | August 21, 2008 2:52 PM
Big guy, this is a request that you be considerate of others and stay on topic. Your last seven posts absolutely said nothing about Brian's subject matter. If you continue hijacking the thread I will request that your posts be removed.
Posted by: I and I | August 21, 2008 4:05 PM
A brief tangent on the "steps for action"
"Enjoy high quality coffee from Juan Ana Coffee. This small coffee company in San Lucas Tolimán, Guatemala, helps to provide local people with land, jobs, and homes. It literally helps to provide land for the landless. Drink some coffee. Help people in poverty. Help reduce the need for immigration. Everyone wins!"
Actually, everyone will not win and the coffee farmers will not be better off. The presumably higher price you pay for this coffee from Juan Ana creates an artificially higher price above the rest of the market, encouraging an excess supply of labor and supply of coffee. Any gains that the farmers would make from growing Juan Ana coffee would be offset by losses to the other farmers who cannot sell their coffee at that higher price. All the farmers will compete for the business and the higher wages, some will be able to sell their coffee at the higher price, others will not. This system creates a “winner takes all” zero-sum game.
Furthermore, in the long run the higher wages (and other benefits such as housing and land) will provide incentive for more workers to enter the coffee business. In order for a country to grow economically and for the people to be truly lifted from poverty they will need to focus on a trade that is more profitable than coffee. Look at the U.S. - we have very few people employed in agriculture, yet we are still productive in it and we have a booming economy and the highest wages in the world.
To truly help the Guatemalan people, you should donate money towards their education or career retraining.
Posted by: Brandon | August 21, 2008 4:38 PM
That's right. No one every changes the subject on this blog-site. The Magnificat post runs through half of church history and the ramifications of exegesis.
You can skip his posts if you don't want to read them.
Posted by: U TOO | August 21, 2008 4:45 PM
No one every changes the subject on this blog-site. The Magnificat post runs through half of church history and the ramifications of exegesis.
U TOO, there's a big difference. The discussion on the Mary thread is based on the thread author's interpretation of verses from the Magnificat. So discussion of exegesis and interpretation is not off topic. Sure, other discussions, of which I was a part, could be called off topic--the Kingdom of God, biblical authority, etc. But those tangents all developed out of the discussion of what Mary's prophecy means.
I and I is complaining about something completely different. In this case, we have someone who regularly complains to the blog owner (i.e., Rev. Wallis) for not writing about topics he thinks are important. These complaints often come completely out of the blue and have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. This person also tends to name his least favorite "liberals" so he can take swipes at them--again, with no connection to the topic at hand.
I don't think I and I's complaint is out of line (though it seems to me that only "big guy's" last six posts were off topic).
Peace,
Posted by: Don | August 21, 2008 4:55 PM
Don
Fair enough, but check out I and I's comments on Race at the Olympics. He's no better.
Posted by: U TOO | August 21, 2008 5:09 PM
check out I and I's comments on Race at the Olympics
How were those comments off topic? The subject is racial gestures; I and I simply added comments about racial remarks by radio personalities.
Now before WE are accused of being off topic here, this is the last comment I will make.
Peace,
Posted by: Don | August 21, 2008 5:27 PM
If the pilgrims and the conquistadores (the original illegal aliens - thieves, murderers) had assimilated and spoken our language we probably would not be in this conundrum... isn't that where "we didn't cross the border, the border crossed us" comes along? greed is what fueled this raid, and yes it was a kosher meat plant! How ironic, eh? And why would the Guatemalans want to leave their beautiful tropical rain forest in the first place, if not because of the violence (death squads and drug lords trained and equipped by US and Israel)and landgrab (foreigners again) in their ancestral lands? Cut the crap. It's time to connect the dots, folks. Our silence allows injustice to prevail. "An ignorant people, are a blind instrument of their own destruction" (Simon Bolivar).
The anti-Christ is alive and well at the White House and in Tel Aviv. Repent! For your history is full of evil.
Posted by: ceguidos | August 21, 2008 5:36 PM
If the pilgrims and the conquistadores (the original illegal aliens - thieves, murderers) had assimilated and spoken our language we probably would not be in this conundrum... isn't that where "we didn't cross the border, the border crossed us" comes along? greed is what fueled this raid, and yes it was a kosher meat plant! How ironic, eh? And why would the Guatemalans want to leave their beautiful tropical rain forest in the first place, if not because of the violence (death squads and drug lords trained and equipped by US and Israel)and landgrab (foreigners again) in their ancestral lands? Cut the crap. It's time to connect the dots, folks. Our silence allows injustice to prevail. "An ignorant people, are a blind instrument of their own destruction" (Simon Bolivar).
The anti-Christ is alive and well at the White House and in Tel Aviv. Repent! For your history is full of evil.
Posted by: ceguidos | August 21, 2008 5:36 PM
"Americans would fix roofs and do dishes if the wages were higher."
Oh, please. I know plenty of high schoolers who woudn't want to touch grunt work. They'd rather make money playing on computers all summer. In addition, I talked to a farmer many yrs. ago here in WI who said that the only labor he could rely on to do good work were the Amish, because they at least could tell the difference between the crop and the weeds.
"The problem with the argument you're making is that it leaves you with two choices: 1) keep importing low wage labor that can be exploited or 2) raise wages for all workers, which results in immigrant workers being priced out of the job market."
So, raise the wages then. I don't have any vested interest in the issue, other than to see God's people being treated fairly. What's interesting is how we're so pro-free trade in this country, but only when it serves our interest. So we keep pouring cheap corn -- now not quite so cheap -- into foreign markets -- as well as rice, cotton, sugar, etc. because the farmers are given huge subsidies to grow these crops. But then we expect the rest of the world to abide by our rule of law. Since when has the United States played fairly on the world's economic scene?
Posted by: ando | August 21, 2008 6:13 PM
Are you saying Amish are illegal aliens? Or have you disproved your own point?
Is it the farmer or the US who is busily serving their own interests?
Posted by: U TOO | August 21, 2008 6:38 PM
Are you saying Amish are illegal aliens?
Well I dunno. Around here, the Amish don't speak English when they're among themselves. Maybe you're on to something.
:-)
Posted by: Don | August 21, 2008 6:47 PM
In fairness, the ability to find good workers is always tied to the market. When the economy is booming, more qualified people have good jobs and have no interest in the low-paying jobs. When the economy plummets, those same highly qualified people loose the good jobs and have to start working harder to make less money.
If our economy continues this down-turn, the arguement about stealing jobs will become a louder and to some degree, truer issue. Workers are also more likely to be exploited, because they're less willing to quit a job for moral or comfort reasons.
As I've said earlier, I do not think that's the biggest concern on this subject.
Posted by: frankie | August 21, 2008 6:58 PM
What part of ILLEGAL aliens committing identity THEFT did you not understand? If you wish to increase the penalty for hiring these aliens, I will be right behind you. However, we cannot support every single person who wants to come to America. Let them get in line like everyone else.
Posted by: Jeff Borden | August 21, 2008 8:35 PM
Posted by: ando | August 21, 2008 6:13 PM
"Americans would fix roofs and do dishes if the wages were higher."
Oh, please. I know plenty of high schoolers who woudn't want to touch grunt work.
You must have missed my post. I have a friend who lost his business that did roofing and other things on houses. He lost it because I and others used someone else which was fine because he was busy at the time when I inquired. I ask the person that I gave the contract to do the work on my house if all their employees were legal to work in the US. I was told that they were.
I was lied to and they when and got jobs at on new construction that my friend was working on and they were able to under bid for the work because their workers worked for less - because they were illegal and did not pay the 'going rate'. Now my friend and 3 of his employees are out of work.
You think this is fair? I also paid for six months of his house payment so that he has a chance albeit slim to get other work. Six months is about what I would have paid him or another company in my community that had legal workers to do the work. So - I paid twice - once for the illegals and once because I was lied to and felt responsible. That will never happen again - somehow I will have the documentation in hand that those I am hiring are legal. What I did because I was lied to is much like purchasing clothes that were made in sweat shops overseas.
God is Good - All the Time
.
Posted by: big guy | August 21, 2008 9:08 PM
Posted by: I and I | August 21, 2008 4:05 PM
If you continue hijacking the thread I will request that your posts be removed.
Please - lighten up a little. I may make a side bar comment but there are plenty of others that are 'off topic' here and there if for no other reason that to add a little humor now and again.
Whatever -
.
Posted by: big guy | August 21, 2008 11:19 PM
Ando,
Pointing out that you know some lazy teenagers who won’t do tough work doesn’t prove that American citizens, in general, would not take slaughter-house, construction, or restaurant jobs if the wages were higher. Why wouldn’t they? If one could make a decent living doing these things surely there are Americans who would do them. As I said, in jobs like state and county road crews that are unionized and can force higher wages, there are plenty of American citizens working.
“So raise the wages then.”
That’s fine by me too, but you just have to realize that that will reduce the demand for cheap immigrant labor and that many immigrants will lose their jobs and will return to their home country where their families are. Raising wages doesn’t help immigrants much at all.
We’re in agreement on agriculture subsidies. They waste American tax dollars and hurt third-world famers. But I’m not sure who you’re criticizing here. Most people I know who support “free trade” also are opposed to subsidies.
Posted by: Eric | August 22, 2008 7:11 AM
The problem that we face somewhere down the road is the discrepancy between the number of available unemployed citizens and the number of illegal immigrant filled jobs that will need to be filled when all the illegals are kicked out.
The only halfway reliable numbers I can find come from the INS and the US Dept of Labor. With a minimum of 12 million jobs being held by deportable illegals and only a maximum of 7 million available legal workers, that will leave 5 million jobs to go begging. Part of the shortage can be handled by stretching out the time frame allowed to accomplish the labor but that is impossible in time sensitive industries like fresh vegetable farming where a large portion of the illegals are working.
The only forseeable result will be more shortages of food supplies with the attendant rise in food costs. We have already seen 200% to 300% increases in the retail price of things like tomatos and cauliflower resulting from the increased cost of fuel for harvesting, processing, and transportation. When we add the expected labor cost increase of 500%, we can easily expect tomatoes prices to rival those of prime beef. Lettuce, broccoli, cauliflower, carrots, and all other fresh garden vegetables requiring stoop labor will not be far if any behind.
I live frugally on a fixed income and I must have a heart-healthy diet if I want to live much longer so my food costs for one person run in the neighborhood of $200 dollars a month. That amounts to almost 20% of my Social Security and with housing accounting for another 35%, utilities costing still another 35%, and medical care including prescriptions running at least 15%, I am running 5% in the red before I begin to pay just for the transportation costs to and from doctor appointments and grocery shopping.
Insurance to protect me from disasters like fire and Oklahoma's tornados is not even feasable to dream about and when something happens to this computer, it will be impossible to replace.
Folks, the scary part is that there are millions of elderly and disabled people who are worse off than me. Are you ready to see the tax increases that will inexorably follow the inflation resulting from the current policy. What will happen to your own household budgets when those tax increases hit on top of your own increase in food costs on top of steadily rising energy costs.
One economist friend tells me that the result of rounding up even 80% of the illegals and deporting them will push over all inflation into the 25% bracket under the best case scenario for the first year with a much higher rate likely. He says that the inevitable bidding war for workers will end up with $15 to $20 dollars an hour for McDonalds counter help being a reasonable expectaion.
For those of you yelling that undocumented workers have broken the law and absolutely must pay for it, are you ready to pay the costs of that move. Are you financially prepared for your cost of living to go up at least 25% with a possiblity of it doubling within 3 years. All you have to do to guarantee it happening is to keep demanding that all illegals must be deported and screaming like a stuck pig everytime you hear the word amnesty.
Posted by: Gary | August 22, 2008 9:29 AM
Gary, your point is well taken, but I don't think we need worry about all undocumented immigrants being found and deported. It simply ain't gonna happen. As nasty and as much in violation of due process as it was, the raid at Postville was nothing more than grandstanding and pandering.
There's no way the government will be able to locate and round up twelve million people who are essentially living underground. For one thing, they don't have the resources (read budgeting and personnel) to do it, let alone enough cells in holding facilities or enough to buy them a ride back to wherever they came from.
And by the way, please keep use of the word 'illegal' to its adjectival meaning and not use it as a noun when referring to people. People aren't themselves illegal, though some do perform illegal acts.
Peace,
Posted by: Don | August 22, 2008 9:47 AM
But Gary's concern is valid even if they are allowed to stay.
If the grossly underpaid ones stay here, they will get services they cannot pay for, which means tax dollars. You cannot bring in unlimited numbers of people that cost your government something without figuring out a way to pay for it. No economy can spend more money than it brings in.
That's why there's limits on who can come in and who cannot.
I'm all for the owners of the fields providing some form of insurance for them -- but our current system isn't working. But if we force that, they will pass those costs on to the consumers as well. And I'm all for Americans having affordable fresh fruits and vegetables -- which is another rant.
Posted by: frankie | August 22, 2008 10:38 AM
I'm all for granting amnesty and giving Social Security numbers to all persons who are living here illegally, except for those who have committed serious crimes after coming here.
It is not a perfect solution and I do have some discomfort with it, but it is the most effective and workable way to bring the individuals into the mainstream, where they would pay income taxes and be entitled to the same wages as those who are here legally. This would take away the "threat" to the jobs of legal residents, becasue everyone would be on a level playing field. Plus, the newly legal workers would contribute to their local economies through increased spending of their wages, thus helping to create jobs.
It would make law enforcement easier, because not only would lawbreakers be easier to track, but witnesses would not fear being deported. It would reduce the financial strain on hospitals because they would be more likely to have some form of insurance, even if Medicaid or SCHIP. Their children would be able to go to college and thus contribute even more to the economy.
Nobody wants to reward illegal behavior, but this is the only workable solution and it will will benefit all of society. Even Ronald Reagan thought so.
Posted by: I and I | August 22, 2008 11:12 AM
The brutality of humanity has been shifted to a corporate container it seems in this article. Killing to live is not a pretty thing but has been very sanitized for most of us by these 'evil' places known as slaugherhouses. Food is now something that exists in a plastic package and only suffers because of some entitiy not connected with our hunger. Perhaps we could all have a farm semester where we have to chop off heads of things to eat them rather than pay someone else to do it. I am sure any suffering thing whether a wooly mammath or a chicken of today would vote for humans to be vegetarians. The roots of faith are interestingly enough tied to bloody sacrifices - certainly not a kindly thing either - but apparently necessary. Christ approached his own death with fear and misgivings, but without it I doubt this forum would exist. People with resources usually have less to pay for their crimes - OJ for example. It seems to be the way it always was, and likely will be in this age. People who are poor and without resources should tread the straight and narrow, lest they will pay for it. Whatever their origin, nationality, or any other category you can think of. America it seems has so much debt that it is scary. The businesses that keep us working and feeding our families are doing whatever they can to survive (like most) or flourish in the case of the oil companies. Tbe underpaid/oppressed workers are now factoring into the equation of survival for some businesses and their survival is important to the survival of the US. I would not be holding your breath to see the big man tax collector holding the big men tax payers accountable for any sins except tax evasion. If we must be charitible to lower standard of living countries, we should be funding programs to teach them to 'fish' for themselves rather giving them fish so that they can multiply and overrun us. It is sobering to look at the numbers and think that your charity to the south of yesterday and today- ensures that you're unemployed or bilingual tomorrow. I am one of the unemployed ones today.
Posted by: Serfer | August 22, 2008 11:32 AM
Just one thing to say in regards to the whole argument that has been going since the original article was posted. Who are 70% of US residents that they can call workers from South and Central America illegals? The US is one of a very few countries (Canada, Mexico, Chile, Sudan, South Africa until recently, etc) where the current population is non-representative of the population that has lived on the land in the past. Yeah 250 years is a while but 'Manifest Destiny' wasn't realized until only about 100 years ago. So, a population of people who have essentially conquered a continent raising their voice about "illegal immigrants" whose ancestors have lived in the Americas (and 50/50 with "illegals" it's North America) seems hypocritical. We have laws but those laws exclude people on the outside of the group that wrote those laws (both internal to the country and external).
Also, as a side note realize that most meatpacker employers travel to South and Central America to literally found workers and transport them to the US to work the job. It's hard for me to find workers at fault when they are told we have a job for you in the US that pays much better than here. Meatpacking is one of the most crooked businesses in operation in the US when it comes to labor practices. Abre los ojos.
Posted by: acacianpunk | August 22, 2008 2:14 PM
How acacianpunk,
Your points are well established, but I feel the entire history of mankind is one where the technology of conflict pushes peoples out of the way when they do not obtain the best. Remember even the native inhabitants were pushed out of the way in North America when the first 'native' humans found their way here and wiped out many great mammals such as the giant sloths. I am in favor of multiculturalism, I am in fact considering Spanish starting next week. I find many things good about the influx of culture. But I think if America is a melting pot, it is dangerous to have non-melting cultural Islands growing within that pot. One has only to look at the conflicts in Europe to recognize that self interested peoples who do not melt together could end up like Georgia, or Yugoslavia. Wisdom and reason should not be abandoned in favor of a policy of dependence upon an oppression. For some slavelike, and high taxation for others. Those who point to the cost of importing the poor need only look to the great state of California. Look where the most imported poverty resides. Look at the educational score drop over the decades from the top to the bottom. Look at the Fiscal mess. Sure I favor relieving the oppressed. I would willing to help organize relief for the farm workers, a mobile home with chiropractors and accupuncturists and standard medical aid to visit the oppressed farm workers. But look at the picture also for the oppressed taxpayers, the money spent battling the gangs and graffiti in the cities and suburbs now. We have highly disproportionate prison populations of illegal aliens. The poor seem to be able to oppress right back when you look at the big picture. LA's mayor thinks that the church should battle the gangs. Do you hear the ACLU crying foul about the separation of chuch and state there? No Sir.
acacianpunk - consider that what was pushed aside were not gene packages, but ways of life. Interestingly, after the great chaos to come - it may find a comeback. Primitive life was sustainable. Abre los ojos to you too friend.
Posted by: Serfer | August 22, 2008 3:14 PM
What can be done to hold corperations as accountable as these immegrants?
Posted by: Sara | August 24, 2008 4:27 PM
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