Palin Owes Some Good People An Apology (by Jim Wallis)
Wednesday morning I got an e-mail from a former member of our Sojourners community. Perry Perkins is now a community organizer in Louisiana with affiliates of the Industrial Areas Foundation (IAF). "Perk," as we used to call him, reported on the enormous consequences of 2 million people being evacuated because of Hurricane Gustav, much of the state now being without power, how hard cities like Baton Rouge were hit, the tens of thousands of people in shelters and churches, and the continuing problems caused by heavy rains and flooding. Then he talked about how their community organizers were responding to all of this -- responding to hundreds of service calls, assisting local officials in evacuation plans, aiding evacuees without transportation, coordinating shelters and opening new ones, providing food, essential services, and financial aid to those in most need. Since Katrina, Perry's Louisiana interfaith organizations have played a lead role in securing millions of dollars to help thousands of families return to New Orleans and rebuild their homes and their lives.
Then Wednesday night I heard Republican vice-presidential nominee Sarah Palin say that her experience as "a small-town mayor is sort of like a community organizer, except that you have actual responsibilities." The convention crowd in St. Paul thought that was very funny. But it wasn't. It was actually quite insulting to the army of community organizers who work in the most challenging places across the country and have such a tremendous impact on the everyday lives of millions of people. I guess Palin and her fellow Republican delegates don't know much about that. The "actual responsibilities" of community organizers literally provide the practical support, collective strength, and hope for a better future that low-income families need to survive,
Community organizers are now most focused in the faith community, working with tens of thousands of pastors and laypeople in thousands of congregations around the country. Faith-based organizing is the critical factor in many low-income communities in the country's poorest urban and rural areas, and church leaders are often the biggest supporters of community organizers. And many of them felt deeply offended by Palin's remarks. Here are a few of their responses:
"As a lifelong Republican, the comments I heard last night about community organizing crossed the line. It is one thing to question someone's experience, another to demean the work of millions of hardworking Americans who take time to get involved in their communities. When people come together in my church hall to improve our community, they're building the Kingdom of God in San Diego. We see the fruits of community organizing in safer streets, new parks, and new affordable housing. It's the spirit of democracy for people to have a say and we need more of it," said Bishop Roy Dixon, prelate of the Southern California 4th ecclesiastical jurisdiction of the Church of God in Christ, member of the San Diego Organizing Project and former board chair of PICO National Network.
They have also pointed out how the most important victories for social justice have come more from community organizers than elected officials.
"We can thank community organizing for the weekend, the eight-hour day, integrated swimming pools, public transportation, health care for children and safe neighborhoods. Community organizing is behind most of the family-oriented initiatives we benefit from every day. I am proud to work for change in my country, my state, and my city as a community organizer, following the great traditions of Dr. Martin Luther King," said Laura Barrett, national policy director of Gamaliel/Transportation Equity Network (TEN).
And when you put the accomplishments of politicians alongside those of community organizers for poor families, it isn't even close. Without the pressure from community organizers and the movements they lead, there would often be nobody to hold politicians accountable.
"Politicians should thank community organizers, not insult them. As a longtime organizer, I've seen time and time again that we are the ones who make government work for the poor, the powerless and the marginalized. Politicians' policies and promises would amount to nothing without grassroots activists to hold them accountable. We are leaders of faith and stewards of democracy. In a time when the face of faith in politics is often ugly, community organizing is a valuable example of faith's positive role in public life," said Pastor Mark Diemer, senior pastor of Grace of God Lutheran Church in Columbus, Ohio, and a DART community organizer.
Palin's effort to attack the experience of Barack Obama, a former community organizer in Chicago, turned into a bad joke and an insult. Palin owes a lot of good people an apology.
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Comments
Thanks, Jim - as usual, you nailed the issue on the head. I would just add that Rugy Guiliani's condescending attitude towards "community organizers" was even worse.
If anything, I would encourage people who found themselves as outraged and angered by those remarks as I found myself to be on Wednesday night to take that negative energy and transform it into something positive by becoming that much more committed to something at the community level so as to bring true change and transformation from the bottom up.
Posted by: Scott Brazil | September 5, 2008 10:55 AM
I think its time for everyone to take a deep breath.
Posted by: letjusticerolldown | September 5, 2008 10:58 AM
I agree with what Jim has said here but I think it would be nice if he would also say something about the people who have said similar things about small town mayors.
Posted by: brad | September 5, 2008 11:04 AM
Jim -- I couldn't agree more. There was a lot to question in Gov. Palin's speech, but that statement in particular struck me as unkind and arrogant. And it offered such an unflattering contrast to the call to public service that John McCain included at the end of his own speech last night. When Gov. Palin was the mayor of Wasilla, she hired a lobbyist and secured about $27 million in federal earmark funding for her town. I wonder whether any of that money fed, clothed or housed a low income person? Or if anyone got job training, help paying their utility bills or drug or alcohol counseling. If her attitude as mayor was anything like the attitude she displayed in her speech, I'm betting it didn't.
Posted by: Julie Huffman | September 5, 2008 11:05 AM
Thanks Jim. I am impressed. You have finally taken a stand on what you believe and who you support (or oppose) instead of your usual bipartisan lip-service. Thank you.
And thank you for identifying a new should-be-protected victim group in our society--the poor 'community organizer'.
Now when we look on a sea of faces we can not only be counting the ones with more pigment, but also the community organizers in the crowd.
Posted by: Peter S. | September 5, 2008 11:08 AM
I would get worked up, but I guess I have too much antipathy. So, I guess I will stay in my small town and cling to my God, my religion and my guns.
With all due respect Jim, can you think of anything good of Republicans? All I have heard from you is they are a bunch of rich white folk who hate everyone.
I am still waiting for Obama to apologize for his elitist comments. But I doubt we will get that, or an solid critique from this blog.
Oh well...
Posted by: Armed2Win (Eph 6:10-18) | September 5, 2008 11:10 AM
There was a great quote floating around the web yesterday that stated, "Mrs. Palin needs to be reminded that Jesus Christ was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a governor"
Posted by: Jeff | September 5, 2008 11:12 AM
I agree, Scott. I was startled by the smirk on Giuliani's face when he mentioned community organizaers. It made me wonder if he had had some negative experiences with them as mayor of NYC.
Brad, I didn't hear anyone at the Democratic convention say anything negative about small-town mayors. If you're talking about the blogosphere, check Free Republic first.
Posted by: I and I | September 5, 2008 11:12 AM
Jim, Next time, you may want to point out the outrage a little quicker though... waiting for 36 hours to 'me too' the criticism of others shows that maybe you did not recognize a problem as your heard the speech yourself. That could be interpreted as being opportunistic.
In 36 hours from now will you have finally formed any comments on McCain's speech? This article seems kind of diversionary.
Posted by: Peter S. | September 5, 2008 11:15 AM
And thank you for identifying a new should-be-protected victim group in our society--the poor 'community organizer'.
For whatever you have, thank a "community organizer." One such person actually led me to Christ -- Martin Luther King Jr.
I am still waiting for Obama to apologize for his elitist comments. But I doubt we will get that, or an solid critique from this blog.
He already did -- you mean you didn't notice?
Posted by: Rick | September 5, 2008 11:20 AM
"Brad, I didn't hear anyone at the Democratic convention say anything negative about small-town mayors."
Obviously, since Palin wasn't the VP pick at that time.
Posted by: Brad | September 5, 2008 11:22 AM
It appears that a lot of American's just love to find something to be offended about.
Posted by: marcus | September 5, 2008 11:22 AM
There was a great quote floating around the web yesterday that stated, "Mrs. Palin needs to be reminded that Jesus Christ was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a governor"
Posted by: Jeff | September 5, 2008 11:12 AM
-------------
Jesus is the Son of God and savior of the world. not a community organizer.
And again with the vilification of those who killed Jesus. He gave is life freely as a sacrifice for our sins. No one took his life. Thank God for Jesus sacrifice.
Posted by: Peter S. | September 5, 2008 11:29 AM
Palin's running mate displayed his contempt for community organizers when he cast his vote against recognizing a holiday in honor of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr
Posted by: Sister Marie | September 5, 2008 11:30 AM
"I would get worked up, but I guess I have too much antipathy. So, I guess I will stay in my small town and cling to my God, my religion and my guns." Armed2Win
Reading your quote gives me pause--- thank you God for big cities, diverse populations and problems. I am happy to be in a big city as the alternative has become increasingly stark.
Posted by: JamesM | September 5, 2008 11:32 AM
"And when you put the accomplishments of politicians alongside those of community organizers for poor families, it isn't even close. Without the pressure from community organizers and the movements they lead, there would often be nobody to hold politicians accountable."
One would think conservatives would be far more respectful, appreciative, and encouraging of community organizers, since they conform to the conservative ideal. Instead of relying on government to take care of identified problems, these people work without government influence or funding to do the work and make change to improve countless lives. Sounds like a conservative ideal to me.
Posted by: squeaky | September 5, 2008 11:36 AM
For whatever you have, thank a "community organizer." One such person actually led me to Christ -- Martin Luther King Jr.
Posted by: Rick | September 5, 2008 11:20 AM
----------
Rick,
I thank God for what I have, not a CO. MLK was a minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Whatever organizing he did was not what saved you, it was his testimony and ministry and life.
Posted by: Peter S. | September 5, 2008 11:38 AM
"Jesus is the Son of God and savior of the world. not a community organizer.
And again with the vilification of those who killed Jesus. He gave is life freely as a sacrifice for our sins. No one took his life. Thank God for Jesus sacrifice."Posted by: Peter S.
The manner in which you write seems to take away the fully human element of Jesus. You might want to study what Docetism was and its implications before you make such broad [and factually incorrect, I might add] statements.
You wouldn't want to join the proud ranks of us happy heretics, would you?
Posted by: JamesM | September 5, 2008 11:38 AM
JamesM: if you didn't see that as a play off of what Obama actually said about small town Americans, then you need to keep up with the news. It's called irony...
And Rick, he didn't apologize - he glossed over as only a smooth politician can.
Regardless, I was a bit disappointed by the attacks by many on Palin's big night - including a few of her own. Yet historically, VP's are a candidates "attack-dog", so it can be expected.
So, where is the outrage here at what has been said at the DailyKOS and other media outlets about Palin, her Down's Syndrome child and the pregnant daughter? Oh, that's right - its OK if the target is a Republican. My bad... (more irony...)
Cheers!
Posted by: Armed2Win (Eph 6:10-18) | September 5, 2008 11:40 AM
I have to disagree to a point. While I totally understand how important "community organizers" are to a community in crisis, I believe Governor Palin was addressing Obama's "community organizer" defense of his ability and experience to be the President of these United States. And while the importance of these community orgaizers is without refute, I would have to argue that there are not many (if any) that have the qualifications to run the greatest country in the free world.
I think she did a valiant job of addressing Obama's shortcomings in this area. We would all do well to take a look at what he has really done for us lately.
Respectfully,
Sally Richards
Posted by: Sally | September 5, 2008 11:41 AM
Sorry, the only ones who felt "offended" were already supporting Obama, the object of her attack. The attack was retaliation for the first blow struck by Obama against small town mayors. Are you going to take Obama to task for any of his elitist or derisive remarks?
Posted by: jesse | September 5, 2008 11:45 AM
If Palin wants to tout her executive experience of attempting to fire the town librarian or firing officials to settle family feuds, then I would say, "Bring It On."
Posted by: Sister Marie | September 5, 2008 11:51 AM
Posted by: Sally | September 5, 2008 11:41 AM
"And while the importance of these community orgaizers is without refute, I would have to argue that there are not many (if any) that have the qualifications to run the greatest country in the free world."
Sally - great comments. It's nice to see a thoughtful post actually dealing with what Palin said.
Posted by: Chris | September 5, 2008 11:52 AM
I guess the thing that gets me is the liberal-mind's need for a "community organizer". Conservatives tend to not feel the need for someone else to come along and organize them and be a surrogate hand for the benevolent government.
Posted by: Peter S. | September 5, 2008 11:53 AM
"So, where is the outrage here at what has been said at the DailyKOS and other media outlets about Palin, her Down's Syndrome child and the pregnant daughter? "
Check out Wallis' first thread about Palin. Many posters expressed outrage for the attacks against Palin's family life.
Many others made good points, however, about how inappropriate it is for her to take on the role of VP with the family issues she has to deal with. I can see both points because it is a double standard, but on the other hand, I think I also would argue that a father should not take on such a challenge with such heavy family responsibilities.
The irony, however, is that if she were a Democrat with the same family challenges, those committed to conservative family values would criticize her even more heavily than the criticism she is receiving now.
Posted by: squeaky | September 5, 2008 11:58 AM
And while the importance of these community orgaizers is without refute, I would have to argue that there are not many (if any) that have the qualifications to run the greatest country in the free world.
I think she did a valiant job of addressing Obama's shortcomings in this area. We would all do well to take a look at what he has really done for us lately.
Posted by: Sally | September 5, 2008 11:41 AM
--------
Great comments Sally. Nail on the head! The intent was to criticize that as a qualification for President NOT to criticize that as an honorable VOCATION.
Posted by: | September 5, 2008 11:58 AM
"The smug, Satanic hatred of some folk on here is palpable. Wow. Posted by: carl copas | September 5, 2008 11:43 AM"
Carl, my friend, that smacks of being just a wee bit (as in planetary) judgmental. Perhaps some here are utterly tired of double-standards for ALL politicians and pundits, whether right or left, conservative or liberal?
Posted by: Armed2Win (Eph 6:10-18) | September 5, 2008 11:59 AM
RE: Posted by: | September 5, 2008 11:58 AM
That was me (Peter S.) I hit post too soon.
Posted by: Peter S. | September 5, 2008 12:00 PM
Oh - an example of double-standard in regards to Obama's and Palin's individual treatment:
I just read that Oprah does not want to bring Gov Palin onto her show. I find this humorous. Why? First, it is sort of like censorship. Secondly, if the Democrats get their "Fairness Doctrine" in place, then Oprah would be required by law to have Palin on as a competing viewpoint.
Again, irony.
Posted by: Armed2Win (Eph 6:10-18) | September 5, 2008 12:03 PM
Armed2Win: "Carl, my friend, that smacks of being just a wee bit (as in planetary) judgmental. Perhaps some here are utterly tired of double-standards for ALL politicians and pundits, whether right or left, conservative or liberal?"
Perhaps, but I don't see any evidence of it. What I see is a lot of smug superiority. How can a Christian condemn someone for community organizing, esp. when he was hired by a group of churches to do so? See in particular Peter S's comment of 11:53. While I don't approve of Bud Duncan's snarky response, I find Peter's observation just appalling. How can Christians see things so differently? Maybe the Anabaptists have it right.
Posted by: carl copas | September 5, 2008 12:08 PM
"The irony, however, is that if she were a Democrat with the same family challenges, those committed to conservative family values would criticize her even more heavily than the criticism she is receiving now. Posted by: squeaky | September 5, 2008 11:58 AM"
Squeaky - a palpable hit!!! Very true and I made that very comment to my wife when watching Guliani's speech. If the tables were turned, Dobson would be on the radio stating that she should be home with her kids.
Another example of an earlier comments (11:59). Anyhow, way to go in pointing that out.
Posted by: Armed2Win (Eph 6:10-18) | September 5, 2008 12:08 PM
Listen, people, the main reason the "community organizer" joke is funny is because no one really knows what it means...it also seems to mean different things to the people that Wallis cites. For ex., one woman who is "National Policy Director" calls herself a "community organizer." People are also saying Jesus was a community organizer...that is just bizarre.
Palin was specifically jabbing at the kind of community organizer Obama was...Obama cites his experiences as organizer as making him qualified to be president, while he belittles Palin's experiences as mayor. It is fair game for Palin to make the contrast between her duties as mayor and his debatable contributions as community organizer.
Posted by: jesse | September 5, 2008 12:08 PM
"What was Bill Clinton? A Community Whoreganizer? Posted by: Peter S. | September 5, 2008 12:09 PM"
Dude! Not cool. That comment does not elevate this conversation and takes a lot of credibility from your arguments. Plus that was over a decade ago - give it up!
Posted by: Armed2Win (Eph 6:10-18) | September 5, 2008 12:13 PM
Bill Clinton's sin was despicable, but like many of us, he is a sinner saved by grace. He and Mrs. Clinton have resolved this issue.
I would caution against pointing fingers at a former president because of his sin. My Bible tells me that God hates divorce.
Posted by: Sister Marie | September 5, 2008 12:23 PM
Dude! Not cool. That comment does not elevate this conversation and takes a lot of credibility from your arguments. Plus that was over a decade ago - give it up!
Posted by: Armed2Win (Eph 6:10-18) | September 5, 2008 12:13 PM
----------
A2W, DUDE! Just a joke! No one is having any fun here. Except maybe Lord Voldemort. Whose last post to Jim was AWESOME.
BTW: The truths in my arguments speak for themselves.
Posted by: Peter S. | September 5, 2008 12:26 PM
RE: Posted by: Harold | September 5, 2008 12:20 PM
Harold, I agree. Good post.
Posted by: Peter S. | September 5, 2008 12:28 PM
Oh please, have you ever known a harsh ultra-conservative to apologize for anything? That's too soft for them.
Afterall, a moose shootin', Penecostal, beauty queen doesn't need to apologize for nothin'! :)
God Bless her!
Posted by: Steve | September 5, 2008 12:33 PM
Inhale.
Exhale.
Inhale.
Exhale.
Slow your breathing.
Get a breath of fresh air.
Posted by: letjusticerolldown | September 5, 2008 12:34 PM
Peter S
"No Armed, this is a pretty one-sided liberal crowd at least 80% would rejoice if Christian Conservatives were wiped off the face of the earth."
Please provide statistics to support this point. You ascribe quite a bit of hatred towards non-conservative Christians, an accusation that is unfounded.
We can disagree with each other without demonizing each other. And that comment is for Carl Copas' remark, too. I agree that many comments were smug, but it is a huge stretch to characterize them as satanic, and certainly does little to promote respectful dialogue.
Posted by: Squeaky | September 5, 2008 12:34 PM
MLK was a minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Whatever organizing he did was not what saved you, it was his testimony and ministry and life.
It was his deeds as a community organizer, specifically the way he went about it, that gave the Gospel legs and hands. Mere preaching and teaching wouldn't have done that.
I'm pretty sure Palin wasn't talking about you or your friends, she was talking about Obama's work, which was particularly long on ideals and short on accomplishments.
Which can often take years to bear fruit. True story: A missionary who faithfully labored for years overseas never made one convert; he retired and returned to the States. But his replacement came to that same field and saw plenty of conversions -- and they credited the first guy for his faithfulness.
Posted by: Rick | September 5, 2008 12:37 PM
We can disagree with each other without demonizing each other.
Posted by: Squeaky | September 5, 2008 12:34 PM
---------
Then why does Jim demand an apology? I would look for Jim to come out in full support of Obama within 72 hours.
Posted by: Peter S. | September 5, 2008 12:40 PM
Oh please, have you ever known a harsh ultra-conservative to apologize for anything?
Point well taken.
Posted by: Rick | September 5, 2008 12:41 PM
Peter--what did Jim say that was hateful or that asked for conservative Christians to be destroyed? Where does he demonize anyone?
Calling someone to task for their remarks is not demonizing them. That's all he is doing.
Your Clinton comment was deplorable, by the way. Not the kind of speech that should come from a Christian.
Posted by: squeaky | September 5, 2008 12:54 PM
Maybe the Anabaptists have it right.
Posted by: carl copas | September 5, 2008 12:08 PM
-------
Where is there an Anabaptist church I can attend?
Posted by: | September 5, 2008 12:55 PM
"Politicians should thank community organizers, not insult them. As a longtime organizer, I've seen time and time again that we are the ones who make government work for the poor, the powerless and the marginalized."
Why would the government thank people for reaching out to this group? The government has shown time and again that they do not want to reach out to people because they need money for their next campaign and people in need of assistance have nothing to offer.
Posted by: Greg | September 5, 2008 12:56 PM
The stinger was for BHO and it hit home. I love Palin for this. I did find it hard to vote for McCain since he has always been a moderate and has always worked with the Dems. But Palin has been great. I'm now looking forward to voting for McCain/Palin.
Roger
Posted by: Roger | September 5, 2008 12:58 PM
This strikes me as a tempest in a teapot. Jibes like Palin's "community organizer" comment are common in political campaigns, and I'm sure the Democrats are more than capable of defending the record of their candidate. Just as I am sure they will make equally amusing insinuations about the Republican ticket. I would wish that political campaigns were always objective and thoughtful, but alas that doesn't seem to be the way it works, at least not in the world of the 5-second soundbite.
Posted by: Gordon | September 5, 2008 1:04 PM
"JamesM: if you didn't see that as a play off of what Obama actually said about small town Americans, then you need to keep up with the news. It's called irony..."Armed2win
The point wasn't lost on me and I stand by what I said. Many of the comments offered up here (yours included) only serve to give credence to Obama's words.
"Sorry, the only ones who felt "offended" were already supporting Obama, the object of her attack. The attack was retaliation for the first blow struck by Obama against small town mayors. Are you going to take Obama to task for any of his elitist or derisive remarks?" Posted by: jesse |
It is the height of irony that the Republicans would accuse anybody of elitism, as their party as it is the epitomy of elitism.
I would have loved to have seen if a Democrat had named somebody with such scant credentials as a VEEP candidate. The concerns are legitimate, and the Republicans did the best that they could to spin them into elitism.
No apology was called for and hence none was given.
Gotta go now-- I need to field dress that moose I shot this morning. Alaska First!
Posted by: JamesM | September 5, 2008 1:06 PM
Posted by: squeaky | September 5, 2008 12:54 PM
-----
Peter--what did Jim say that was hateful or that asked for conservative Christians to be destroyed? Where does he demonize anyone?
>>I never said Jim wants that--just the extreme leftists on this blog. The tone of condescension in his article and the audacity to demand an apology from one 3rd party to another is inline with demonization of this wonderful young christian governor.
Calling someone to task for their remarks is not demonizing them. That's all he is doing.
>> that is NOT all he is doing. he is clearly in the tank for Obama and is being intellectually dishonest about that.
Your Clinton comment was deplorable, by the way. Not the kind of speech that should come from a Christian.
>>I say that a lot of speech on this forum should not be coming from a Christian, greatest of which this faux-outraged article to begin with. It probably was a cheap-shot, but I really was just trying to be funny. Sorry to offend all the Clinton fans.
Posted by: squeaky | September 5, 2008 12:54 PM
Posted by: Peter S. | September 5, 2008 1:08 PM
Jesus was a community organizer? What community exactly?
I applaud community organizers, but I also applaud members of the PTA, which Palin also was. Neither one of them qualifies you for President. Just because someone founded a rescue mission doesn't mean I'd vote for them for President.
Comments like, "Doesn't everybody know that McCain was a POW" also merit an apology. That was every day for years for him. I don't think it qualifies him for President either, but he doesn't deserve to be slammed for it.
On this very blog, I have seen replies that have said, "He does have the experience. He was a community organizer in Chicago."
To that I kindly and respectfully say, 'That has nothing to do with running a country.'
The point, which you all have missed, is that Obama's lack of experience is very similar to Palin's. You'd think that would end this argument.
Obama's ad that says McCain doesn't know anything about the economy is just as appauling. His scare tactics about McCain overturning Roe vs. Wade are lousy, same ole, same ole politics I see every election season.
Change what???
Posted by: Connie | September 5, 2008 1:10 PM
Peter,
As a proud liberal why don't you take responsibility for your own thoughts and prove yourself wrong? why should I have to do the heavy lifting for you?
p
Posted by: Payshun | September 5, 2008 1:10 PM
James,
The Dems don't name the VP with scant credentials, they have BHO for that. Hence the reference in the speech.
Roger
Posted by: roger | September 5, 2008 1:13 PM
Peter,
As a proud liberal why don't you take responsibility for your own thoughts and prove yourself wrong? why should I have to do the heavy lifting for you?
p
Posted by: Payshun | September 5, 2008 1:10 PM
--------
I'm not a liberal. What gave you that idea? Just ask Squeaky, Don, or any of the other regulars.
Posted by: Peter S. | September 5, 2008 1:17 PM
"I never said Jim wants that--just the extreme leftists on this blog. "
To make such an accusation of "extreme leftists" on this blog requires actual evidence. I don't agree with much of what you say, and I would say you fall in the "extreme rightists" camp. But I would never believe that you or others like you on this blog want liberal Christians to disappear from the Earth. That is a horrible thing to say of your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
What speech within the faux-outraged article is not befitting of a Christian? Where does Wallis resort to coarse jokes and slams of those he doesn't agree with?
From the comments you have made so far on this blog, you seem to equate disagreement, even disagreement that has been expressed respectfully, with anti-conservative hate-speech.
Posted by: squeaky | September 5, 2008 1:19 PM
I did find it hard to vote for McCain since he has always been a moderate and has always worked with the Dems. But Palin has been great. I'm now looking forward to voting for McCain/Palin.
Which is precisely what he put Palin on the ticket -- to do the dirty work he can't or won't to get such people to vote for him.
I say that a lot of speech on this forum should not be coming from a Christian, greatest of which this faux-outraged article to begin with.
So anything that criticizes conservatives' positions or actions is somehow "un-Christian?" Talk about being touchy, let alone hypocritical! Conservatives have been skewering their opponents with impunity since the early 1980s, and they have the gall to get huffy when someone gives it back to them? Truth be told, Wallis's entry was actually pretty mild in comparison.
Posted by: | September 5, 2008 1:19 PM
Yikes that comment about Bill Clinton was rude .
Regardless of their politics, they are people! How sad that aspect of their lives , the down deep embarrassment and hurt . Pray for those folks Peter !
I got people in the local paper I log at , calling Palin white trash , sexual degrading names kids give momnen who perform sex on a common basis , making fun of her breasts , mocking her religion using Jerry Falwell quotes , which liberals are good at it even here , and on and on .
The fact Jim you make an issue out of this organizer tit for tat , well it makes you look so very partsian . Well we know you are , but it looses your creditability
The community organizer was giving the other side of some what she was getting . Politics 101, it was you ridicule me for who I am and my life work , you get it back . I suppose you are asking Bidden and such to be forgiven for mocking the importance of ALASKA ?
Too funny .
Posted by: Michael | September 5, 2008 1:26 PM
"What speech within the faux-outraged article is not befitting of a Christian?"
Posted by: squeaky | September 5, 2008 1:19 PM
---------
The title for one, then the whole premise for two. When you look at it in the context of knowing Jim's affinity for Obama and his history of work for the DNC it is clear that he is acting in surrogate-attack for benefit of Obama. That is unchristian, dishonest and should be pointed out. The Communist Party of America has no problem voicing support for Obama, why should Jim Wallis?
Posted by: Peter S. | September 5, 2008 1:31 PM
I wasn't offended and I am in community emergency management. And I'm proud to help in a crisis and organize relief efforts and recovery. But I am JUST an community organizer. I don't handle millions of dollars, I don't handle diplomatic relations, I don't have sole responsibility for the accountability of the project.
It is what it is.
Posted by: | September 5, 2008 1:33 PM
Michael--thanks for your sensitive response about Clinton.
What paper are you getting?! It sounds like a very left-wing rag, and not worth your time! I haven't heard any such language in mainstream media, and don't spend any time with the fringe media, where, apparently the more vitriolic attacks are coming from. Not worth anyone's time, if you ask me.
Posted by: squeaky | September 5, 2008 1:37 PM
"Jesus was a community organizer? What community exactly?" Connie
The disciples were a community.
Posted by: JamesM | September 5, 2008 1:37 PM
"Jesus was a community organizer? What community exactly?" Connie
The disciples were a community.
Posted by: JamesM | September 5, 2008 1:37 PM
----
That is a stretch. But anyway Jesus did not run for President.
Posted by: Peter S. | September 5, 2008 1:42 PM
Peter-- If you criticized an unfair attack that Obama made, I wouldn't call your speech un-Christian, if your criticism is expressed respectfully. Just because Wallis is clearly a Democrat doesn't mean he doesn't have the right to point out particularly hurtful comments by the other party.
And he did not use any coarse speech while doing so. He was respectful, not sarcastic. Where is he being disrespectful? Where is he being hateful? How does his obvious liberal leanings equate his speech with disrespect and hatefulness?
Disagreeing with someone does not equate to disrespect. Disagreement with someone can be expressed without the use of hate-filled remarks and sarcasm. And I see no place in Jim's article where he resorts to such tactics.
Posted by: squeaky | September 5, 2008 1:44 PM
To those in the remaining 20% if you would like to sound off and prove my 80/20 split wrong please do.
Posted by: Peter S.
Peter this site can be pretty nasty at times . The double standards , and the rooted hatred of Bible believing Christians who have not the humanistic world view injections.
Like Wallis being concerned about the organizer remark . The comments directed at the Jesus FreaK Palin, and her family, her state , her life's work went completly un noticed . he is looking at the issue as how a partsian looks at an issue, that promotes his political cause . As if he grieves for political community organizers feelings . If they are liberal he does maybe.
Putting the name of Jesus on it is more insulting then the community organizer hit .
But both sides do it . I notice more here, the humanistic approach to dealing with the poverty issue , or other issues .
The concern about the causes are never considered to be self inflicted , sin . That someone else is always at fault. And of course those people are in politics and side with your political beliefs . If not you yourself which gets stated also . Always a great open for intellectual exchange .
And of course we have a few who always hated you , but prove their un bias by saying they use to be republican , but now support socialism . They of course are pro life also , like I am pro wrestling . Just a few million other things are more important .
You can't help take away poverty with out stopping the cause of poverty and also reaching out to help those physically in it . Its spirtual and physical . To Christians it seems logical , it gets much debate here . You mocked here for it , because race is involved you are limited to comments of being ignorant or racist .
And of course if you have eneough and explode in anger or frustration , unlike liberals , you will be banned .
I have heard worse dergoratory comments about other people on conservatibe sites , and liberal sites . I have never seen Christians mock other Christians and their motives so pathetically in the name of cheap politics as from this place though .
Posted by: Michael | September 5, 2008 1:53 PM
"I...don't spend any time with the fringe media"
Posted by: squeaky | September 5, 2008 1:37 PM
----------
Oh my GOSH! Squeaky, this IS the Fringe Media!!!!! and you are here all the time!
What else do you think this is? All Jim talks about is Politics!!! Not pure articles of instruction on God or Jesus--all tied in some way to how the american political structure should change in favor of his theology. One of his big missions is to pull Christians away from the right by saying that the left is more compassionate and more like Jesus. And by the way forget abortion because that is only ONE issue. Please understand that this IS the FRINGE MEDIA.
Posted by: Peter S. | September 5, 2008 1:53 PM
Fully agree. And while she is at it she should also apologise for the line "Al Qaeda terrorists still plot to inflict catastrophic harm on America ... he's worried that someone won't read them their rights?" America has lost great standing and moral influence in the world due to its failure to respect human rights in the context of the war on terror. More of this will only harm America further. Her speech was disgraceful in many ways.
Posted by: Andy | September 5, 2008 1:55 PM
Where is there an Anabaptist church I can attend? Posted by: | September 5, 2008 12:55 PM
The Anabaptist movement is represented by the Mennonite, Church of the Brethren, and Amish groups.
Peace,
Posted by: Don | September 5, 2008 2:03 PM
After reading all of the hateful attacks on Jim Wallis, I went back and reread his original post to attempt to learn what brought them on. I detected no partisan motives. What he did was to review a portion of her speech and put it into the context of those community organizers who have been personally offended by what she said.
Look, when you give a speech, you need to be held accountable for what you say - even when what you say was written for you. So when you deliberately denigrate someone's job, you are not just putting down the person you wish to criticize - you are also putting down everyone else who is doing that job.
Now, maybe McCain and Palin are not particularly concerned about the community organizer vote. But if that was my vocation, or if I were one of the millions of people whose lot had been improved by the actions of community organizers, I would consider carefully their remarks before I cast my vote for them.
Jim was right and fair in his remarks, letting a Republican community organizer speak for himself. What profession will the Republicans go after next?
Posted by: Sister Marie | September 5, 2008 2:05 PM
OK--I guess you got me there.
Let me re-qualify my statement, then. What I consider fringe media is that media which is not only completely biased (as this, I concede, is), but which presents its biased views in a disrespectful manner, often making jokes at the expense of those with whom they disagree. For example:
All the folks at MSNBC
Bill O'Reilly
Rush Limbaugh
Ann Coultier
Whatever paper Michael was referring to.
If you have found disrespectful, hateful speech here BY THE BLOGGERS, show me. Yes, many posters have fallen into that category, which I find regrettable and unnecessary. But I haven't seen it by the bloggers themselves.
Posted by: squeaky | September 5, 2008 2:06 PM
Oh my GOSH! Squeaky, this IS the Fringe Media!!!!! and you are here all the time!
Yawn.
Posted by: Don | September 5, 2008 2:07 PM
re: Posted by: Michael | September 5, 2008 1:53 PM
Michael, Was all that directed at me? I lost some of the references.
"The comments directed at the Jesus FreaK Palin"
How much of Jesus makes one a "Jesus Freak"? Why did you insert that?
I'm not sure how to respond except to say: I am just trying to offer a different perspective. Some may be pointed, and I am sarcastic by nature so please don't be offended. I mean you no harm.
Posted by: Peter S. | September 5, 2008 2:15 PM
Funny, Peter S, that you accuse "liberals" here of hatemongering, inflammatory language, and demonizing of Sarah Palin, yet it is you who feel compelled to load your comments with words in all caps and multiple exclamation marks.
Posted by: Don | September 5, 2008 2:17 PM
At this time I would like to publicly apologize for making fun of lawyers. In my life I have told lawyer jokes and even laughed at them. And even more troubling it was only Republicans who laughed at those jokes. Grow some skin Wallis!!!! I trust no one in this blog who is upset with Sarah has ever laughed at a lawyer or told a lawyer joke.
Posted by: PB | September 5, 2008 2:21 PM
"Yawn."
Posted by: Don | September 5, 2008 2:07 PM
Good morning Don. Why don't you give an opinion and something proactive instead of piping in with a "snarky" comment as some like to say.
Posted by: peter S. | September 5, 2008 2:21 PM
Funny, Peter S, that you accuse "liberals" here of hatemongering, inflammatory language, and demonizing of Sarah Palin, yet it is you who feel compelled to load your comments with words in all caps and multiple exclamation marks.
Posted by: Don | September 5, 2008 2:17 PM
------
CAPS WERE FOR EMPHASIS NOT HATE!!!!
Once again what is you analysis of Jim's article? This is for you Don:
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly...Who knows the great enthusiams, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who have never known neither victory nor defeat."
- Teddy Roosevelt
Posted by: Peter S. | September 5, 2008 2:31 PM
This outrage over the line about community organizers is over the top. It was a joke aimed at Obama's qualifications, a decent point in fact.
It was not really a hit at all community organizers. I didn't take it that way, nor would most thinking people. Just like people who scoff at Palin's PTA experience as a qualification to be VP would not be scoffing at everyone who has ever worked in the PTA.
I'm interested in the discussions of political and government philosophy and policy that really matter. Both conventions did what conventions do, rally the troops. Now we can only hope for substantive discussions, even from God's Politics (which is more what even those of us who disagree with him, have come to expect from Jim Wallis).
Posted by: G. Bruce | September 5, 2008 2:32 PM
Peter S: "Good morning Don. Why don't you give an opinion and something proactive instead of piping in with a 'snarky' comment as some like to say."
Yawn.
Posted by: carl copas | September 5, 2008 2:33 PM
Peter--Michael's post was actually in support of your comments.
Posted by: squeaky | September 5, 2008 2:36 PM
Peter, it was a reaction to your comment about fringe media; we;ve heard this kind of thing before, and we're simply tired of accusation piling upon accusation.
The fact is, one's definition of fringe media depends on whose ox is being gored. The Web site you directed us to yesterday, americanthinker.com, looks quite loaded with fringe to me. See my comments about it on yesterday's marathon blog. I would consider it in the same category as the outlets on Squeaky's list above.
Accusations and counter-accusations aren't getting us anywhere; in fact, they are the reason so many are turned off by electoral politics.
The way I see this particular blog today is that Rev. Wallis is merely asking Sarah Palin to act like the Christian she claims to be and to treat her political opponents respectfully even when disagreeing. I don't think that's too much to ask, especially since we can be quite sure that Ms. Palin was asked to be on the ticket precisely because of her "Christian" credentials. You can reply with "if you can't stand the heat..", but pleading politics as usual doesn't get her off the hook.
That's all Rev Wallis was asking for. I don't think it's unreasonable at all. But along come partisans like you who take this so personally as an attack on Ms. Palin's own character. And then you get all upset with comments from others who rightly think you and other like-minded folks are overreacting. This blog degenerated into a verbal food fight almost as soon as it was posted, and that's a real shame, if for no other reason than it once again gives Christians a black eye.
If you want to continue misreading and then misrepresenting what folks like Jim Wallis write here, expect to be countered. A couple of days ago, we had our own disagreement, and out of it, I thought, you were going take Kevin S' advice to be respectful. I haven't seen much respect here from you for those with whom you disagree today.
Peace,
Posted by: Don | September 5, 2008 2:39 PM
CAPS WERE FOR EMPHASIS NOT HATE!!!
Caps are evidence of comments from someone who is reacting emotionally, not thinking critically.
Posted by: Don | September 5, 2008 2:40 PM
Peter--Michael's post was actually in support of your comments.
Posted by: squeaky | September 5, 2008 2:36 PM
----
ok. Thanks for the translation.
Posted by: Peter S. | September 5, 2008 2:42 PM
G. Bruce
"Just like people who scoff at Palin's PTA experience as a qualification to be VP would not be scoffing at everyone who has ever worked in the PTA."
Very few people who are members of a PTA would think that experience qualifies them to be vice president.
Posted by: squeaky | September 5, 2008 2:44 PM
Don, Seems like your comments only come on the scene to rebuke people. Are you actually Jim?
Posted by: Peter s. | September 5, 2008 2:50 PM
Don--I appreciate your 2:39 post. Well put and well analyzed.
As a person who uses caps every now and then for emphasis...I can't agree with your assessment of the use of caps...I know context matters, but if I agree, I am indicting my own use of the cap.
Actually, I use them because I can't figure out how to post using any other means to provide emphasis. I"m sure there is some button to click...but because of the power behind the cap, I try to use them sparingly when making a point. It is strange how caps look like were are shouting, while italics and bold print are generally interpreted as emphasis, as intended.
Posted by: squeaky | September 5, 2008 2:52 PM
It is strange how caps look like were are shouting, while italics and bold print are generally interpreted as emphasis, as intended.
Posted by: squeaky | September 5, 2008 2:52 PM
------------
I 'was' shouting Squeaky. I was saying to look out! Danger. You are not getting the whole picture!
Posted by: Peter S. | September 5, 2008 2:59 PM
Squeaky, I have also occasionally used caps as well, for emphasis. As a former typographer and one who teaches document design and layout, occasional use of caps (one or two words at a time) will not convey shouting or emotional tone. But a whole line or sentence in all caps, ending with multiple exclamation points, will.
To use italics and bold print on this forum, one must use HTML tags--there's no keystroke or combination that I know of that will do it. I would show you the tags, but you might not be able to see them after my comment is posted. (You might be able to see them by selecting View:Source from your browser's View menu.)
Peter, I was actually trying to stay away from this food fight; I didn't enter it just to rebuke you. I can only do this so much, you know. But having said that, I agree with letjusicerolldown, who from the very beginning was asking folks to do some breathing exercises.
Peace,
Posted by: Don | September 5, 2008 3:00 PM
I think there's a reason why Palin spent so much of her speech denigrating community organizers. Look the Republicans know that as long as this campaign is focused on the issues, they cannot possibly win. Americans hate their positions on the issues.
Therefore, she conveniently omitted from her speech any discussion of "middle-class" or "health care" or "housing crisis" or "Afghanistan". On all of these, there was a deafening silence.
Fellow Democrats, lets shut up about the pregnancy of her daughter. The Republicans will launch a barrage of negative attacks just like they did in 2004 when a genuine war hero was unjustly criticized by two men who found a way to avoid the conflict faced by their generation. If we focus on the important issues that the next president will face, we will win. When you get down in the gutter with the pigs, you only get dirty - and the pigs like it!
Posted by: Sister Marie | September 5, 2008 3:03 PM
"a small-town mayor is sort of like a community organizer, except that you have actual responsibilities." this seems to be objectively offensive to community organizers and saying that they don't have "actual responsibilities." why is it so hard to acknowledge this, apologize, and move on? we all mess up, but we forgive each other when we acknowledge the wrong & are contrite.
Posted by: nad2 | September 5, 2008 3:03 PM
'...to be reminded that Jesus Christ was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a governor"'
BULL!
Christ was not the community organizer. He for the most part deal with small groups and kept private company with 12 men and a few others. He did not organize agaist the Roman Govt. He told us to 'render to Ceaser what is his and to God what is His'.
Pilate was Romans appointed leader - never voted in by the community he was assigned to govern. He played to the special interests groups and did not rock the boat. He would not make the decision about Christ's guilt or innosence - guess that was above his 'pay-grade' too.
Blessings to all!
.
Posted by: big guy | September 5, 2008 3:06 PM
I 'was' shouting Squeaky. I was saying to look out! Danger. You are not getting the whole picture!
Translation: You can't be getting the whole picture, because you still disagree!
Posted by: Don | September 5, 2008 3:09 PM
"The Republicans will launch a barrage of negative attacks just like they did in 2004 when a genuine war hero was unjustly criticized by two men who found a way to avoid the conflict faced by their generation."
Hmmm--ironically the exact same thing happened during the 2000 Republican primaries...
Posted by: squeaky | September 5, 2008 3:09 PM
Mr Wallis -
I will consider sending a note to Gov. Palin about an apology only when BHO gives an apology to me and others like me who are gun owning, Bible believing Christians who are just trying to pay their taxes and make our communities a little better than when we moved in.
Blesssings to all!
.
Posted by: big guy | September 5, 2008 3:10 PM
Apparently there is some kind of computer glitch that removed my earlier comment, so I'll repost a shorter version:
This response to Palin only makes Obama's supporters appear defensive and thin-skinned, and ultimately undermines his campaign.
If you want to make Obama a less attractive candidate, and diminish his chances of winning the Presidency, this is a good way to do it.
LV
Posted by: Lord Voldemort | September 5, 2008 3:11 PM
Oh, almost forgot to mention: Palin's comments were mainly directed at Obama's experiences, in which the resuts were rather nebulous. I doubt she was speaking of Jim Wallis or his friends.
LV
Posted by: Lord Voldemort | September 5, 2008 3:14 PM
There's a most interesting article today in The New Republic about Obama's move from community organizing to politics. The author suggests that Obama made the switch because he felt that community organizing was inherently incapable of producing the type of results he felt were necessary for the people he was working with. If the author has it right, then one can argue that even Obama agrees that community organizing is poor preparation for higher office.
Posted by: Gordon | September 5, 2008 3:17 PM
Apparently there is some kind of computer glitch that removed my earlier comment, so I'll repost a shorter version:
Posted by: Lord Voldemort | September 5, 2008 3:11 PM
----
LV: IT HAS BEEN DELETED!!! I saw those comments and commented on them!! .....
"Except maybe Lord Voldemort. Whose last post to Jim was AWESOME.
BTW: The truths in my arguments speak for themselves.
Posted by: Peter S. | September 5, 2008 12:26 PM
It was a long letter, I saw it. WHO IS DELETING POSTS???
Posted by: Peter S. | September 5, 2008 3:20 PM
Beliefnet monitors will delete posts if they think their content is inappropriate in some way. Sometimes these deletions appear rather arbitrary, but if you post here very long, you can expect to have one or two posts deleted.
Posted by: Don | September 5, 2008 3:23 PM
LV: you started the letter by asking if Jim was trying to throw the election.
Posted by: Peter S. | September 5, 2008 3:24 PM
Wallis' first reaction to this speech was conciliatory and reasonable. Now, suddenly, he is worked up over the community organizer thing? It's like he had to read the post-game analysis to decide what to be mad about. Isn't he getting the talking points in his daily e-mail anymore?
Community organizing is a legitimate activity. It is part and parcel of being a politician. I've taken the role myself in my work experience, and a church is certainly an example of organizing the community. It's important, and I suspect Sarah Palin knows that it is important.
The role of "community organizer" as a job title is defined nebulously. When applied to someone whose ambitions lie at the presidential level, the inclination is to assume that the role is simply a stepladder to a "real job".
As such, it is more than reasonable to make a jab, and it does not consitute a jab at anyone who has ever organized communities. If it were, Wallis would have expressed his indignation sooner.
That said, if Obama wants to make the rest of this campaign about his experience as a community organizer, I'll break out the popcorn. I'm not sure what his campaign is trying to do here.
Posted by: kevin s. | September 5, 2008 3:24 PM
LV, i think bringing up this point is a way for people of good conscience, obama supporters or otherwise, to say that we want the leaders of our country to run a respectful campaign and not belittle the efforts of those in the faith communities & elsewhere who are out working in the vineyard of the lord (and also to tell them it's ok to apologize if they mess up).
Posted by: nad2 | September 5, 2008 3:25 PM
Mocking others, especially those working to serve, reveals something about one's character.
I haven't sensed the qualities of humility in her yet either, which will be necessary for someone to have the temperament to lead a diverse nation.
End times beliefs are a part of her mental make up, which can be very dangerous for a world leader--thinking that maybe the end of the world is God's will too.
Taking 6 years to get a bachelor's degree... There may be a good reason, but please tell us. We have a right to know more.
Posted by: Aaron-former republican | September 5, 2008 3:26 PM
Wow....after all the crap that was thrown at Sarah by everyone..this is what the author comes up with????? Yeah....ok....desperation is really hitting hard....
Posted by: Casey | September 5, 2008 3:35 PM
Posted by: Aaron-former republican | September 5, 2008 3:26 PM
How do you know what her particular eschatological views are? Maybe, like many in the Protestant Church, she finds Darby's point of view laughable - I did back when I was a Protestant.
Gordon - former leftist
Posted by: Gordon | September 5, 2008 3:40 PM
Peter this site can be pretty nasty at times. The double standards, and the rooted hatred of Bible believing Christians who have not the humanistic world view injections.
That remark is purely hateful, slanderous and poisonous in its own right.
What else do you think this is? All Jim talks about is Politics!!! Not pure articles of instruction on God or Jesus--all tied in some way to how the american political structure should change in favor of his theology.
Uh, Peter -- if you haven't noticed, this blog is called "God's Politics." That should give you a hint about what's being discussed here.
Posted by: Rick | September 5, 2008 3:43 PM
Peter, exercise can help burn off bottled up energy.
Posted by: Bud Duncan | September 5, 2008 3:49 PM
Jim, I was also enraged when I heard that laugh-line in her speech. It's one thing to take on your opponent, another to put down a whole class of those who do some of the most thankless tasks in our society. I suppose we now know what matters most to her and the Republicans. She does owe an apology, but then you have to remember that she was pandering to a segment of the population for whom the closest thing to a community organizer is the private security guard at their gated community.
Posted by: Russ Eanes | September 5, 2008 3:57 PM
Peter,
I worded the sentence wrong, but I was referring to me. I am a liberal and I am saying that I am not going to do the heavy lifting to stop your paranoid idea that we want you all dead. If I really wanted you all dead, I would find better ways of doing it. I really wish you would stop saying we want to kill you. Believe me, my liberal friends and I have much better things to do with our time.
p
Posted by: Payshun | September 5, 2008 3:59 PM
My, my! As I read the Gospel of Jesus Christ, there exists a clear difference which I would choose to discribe as The Pax Romanum (Peace of Caesar and Pilate or Roman Pagan Rule) and The Peace Vobiscum (Pece of Christ).
I have to wonder aloud, to my 58 year old, Progressive-Born-Again-Christian self but here in this all too public blog, which Peace of the two, is being advanced in response to Jim's writing?
But please, I would beg everyone: leave my retorical question alone. Thank a lot! Have a nice day.
Posted by: Mike | September 5, 2008 4:00 PM
My, my! As I read the Gospel of Jesus Christ, there exists a clear difference which I would choose to discribe as The Pax Romanum (Peace of Caesar and Pilate or Roman Pagan Rule) and The Peace Vobiscum (Peace of Christ).
I have to wonder aloud, to my 58 year old, Progressive-Born-Again-Christian self but here in this all too public blog, which Peace of the two, is being advanced in response to Jim's writing?
But please, I would beg everyone: leave my retorical question alone. Thank a lot! Have a nice day.
Posted by: Mike | September 5, 2008 4:00 PM
Uh, Peter -- if you haven't noticed, this blog is called "God's Politics." That should give you a hint about what's being discussed here.
Posted by: Rick | September 5, 2008 3:43 PM
-----------
That was exactly my point.
Posted by: Peter S. | September 5, 2008 4:02 PM
"Christ was not the community organizer. He for the most part deal with small groups and kept private company with 12 men and a few others. He did not organize agaist the Roman Govt. He told us to 'render to Ceaser what is his and to God what is His'."
Now I realize bible scholarship is lacking and all but actually Jesus was a community organizer or else how could you explain the early church, Paul's missionary trips and host of other things? Did you forget that he got crowds of over 5,000 people and taught them to love one another?
p
Posted by: Payshun | September 5, 2008 4:05 PM
That was exactly my point.
So, what's your beef? This blog is not called "God's Theology."
Posted by: Rick | September 5, 2008 4:11 PM
Well, Payshun,
I'm not sure it's a question of Bible scholarship. Characterizing Jesus as a "community organizer" is more a matter of metaphor than anything. I'd personally be inclined to see it as a faulty metaphor.
Posted by: Gordon | September 5, 2008 4:16 PM
I have all the respect in the world for Jim. I am friends with a mutual friend, Mary Ann, and have met him, and his beautiful wife, a couple of times at her parties. That is how I found out about his fine magazine. I disagree with his criticism though. First, you must remember that her speech, as were Obama's, was written by a professional speech writer. I don't think it was fair to imply that Obama's organizing was comparable to the example given by Jim. Just what did Obama organize? I note that Jim did not say. I think one of the purposes of the comments was to give attention to the fact that being an organizer seems to be the primary "entry' on Obama's resume. That certainly doesn't qualify one to be president of out great country. Nor does promising to take (steal) the earnings of others by discriminating against those who are the most successful. Obama does not seem to want to encourage our citizens to take advantage of the endless opportunities to succeed in our great country. Instead, he wants the government to do it all. i started working in the sixth grade and never quit, completing 19 years of education, with no college loans.(because I worked at numerous part time jobs and attended school full time. I never though about asking the government for help. Obama is the one who has numerous apologies to make. Most often he insults our intelligence.
Posted by: Jack | September 5, 2008 4:21 PM
Why?
he organized a community out of conservative, liberal and other types of Jews that grew into a community that included everyone else. How is that faulty?
p
Posted by: Payshun | September 5, 2008 4:26 PM
Actually Jack Obama wrote his speech. He made that very clear before he delivered it.
p
Posted by: Payshun | September 5, 2008 4:28 PM
For those of you who remember when Obama made that "bitter" comment, it was in Pennsylvania during a stomp speech. He was running against Hillary Clinton at the time, and she was upset basically because he was toppling her in the state by state contest. So she made something out of his bitter statement, meant to turn off blue collar Pennsylvania voters (and it worked), by claiming he was an elitist that was making fun of them. Most people at that time (even Pennsylvanians) knew that Obama did not mean that statement in the context that Clinton and others started accusing him of meaning it as. It was in stark contrast to what Palin said about Community Organizers, she actually said this in a mean spirited way. Obama made that bitter statement in an attempt to be sympathetic with the people of these parts... but Hillary in her quest to beat him made something more out of it... and it just took off after that... partly because some people wanted to believe that about him. However, I don't believe Obama is a mean spirited person that would deliberately make fun of poor people. He was one himself at one time.
Also, about the experience factor. Obama was not only a community organizer, but the President of Harvard Law Review; taught law at a university; state senator in Illinois for 8 years, and US Senator for 3 years. If you ever read his book Audacity of Hope, I doubt if Sarah Palin can compete with him on a wide range of issues. He's definitely qualified to be president (like it or not), if you look at his resume from the time he was young and up, he took certain steps in his life where it would place him in the position of one day becoming U.S. President.
Posted by: LAE | September 5, 2008 4:29 PM
Folks, I guess I should apologize for my personal attacks against Jim toward the beginning of this thread. But I still stand by my opinions on the issues, I'll just try to state them minus character assassination. Truce?
Posted by: Peter S. | September 5, 2008 4:32 PM
Dear Big Guy,
Jesus was a community organzier. Who made sure that the 5,000 were fed after his sermon? Who talked about loving each other and loving even those who others think are unredeamable? Who threw the money changers out of the temple? Jesus came to give all salvation and in the process he made sure that we sinners knew that we all were equal and that all of the sins committed by all of the people would be forgiven. If Jesus hadn't organized his friends and neighbors we wouldn't know about his saving grace today.
Posted by: HelenLee | September 5, 2008 4:33 PM
I had heard this, and I felt bad about it. No matter what the underlying reasons are for saying something like this about community organizers. No one can deminish the hardwork and "actual responsibilities" community organizers do have and what they stand for and who they represent in the world when they are out in the world, working and helping people re-build their lives in whatever they need rebuilding with physically, emotionally and spiritually. Especially when the majority of these folks are volunteers. I was taken back when I heard this. If people would just look around at the work the genuien "community organizers" do to try and alleviate suffering of people in the world instead of self promoting their own self worth as a politician and this goes for democrats as well as republican leaders, maybe they would think before they spoke. All I do is pray that God will give us a leader who will have a heart for the all the people in the world who need love and support with whatever their needs are.
Posted by: Lu | September 5, 2008 4:37 PM
Jim Wallis,
Please grow a backbone and tell us you are full-on liberal democrat that fully supports Obama. I am weary of spineless and unapologetic support of one side while saying you are not. It is quite pathetic.
Posted by: John | September 5, 2008 4:39 PM
The Governor's comments were NOT against Community Organizers -- she was reacting to the attack from Obama against small towns and their mayors.
It is really grasping at straws to try to smear the Governor with this, since it was Obama who started tearing down the work of hard-working Americans with that awful e-mail denigrating the work of mayors of small towns.
We're not talking about the job itself standing alone -- we're talking about 'how does the job equip one to be President of this Nation.'
NO COMPARISON! Compare this job description to a Community Organizer (which is quite often a VOLUNTEER position, not a career line):
Acts as the Chief Executive of
the City’s Executive Department
• Prepares the City Budget
• Approves or vetoes legislation
submitted by the City Council
• Appoints the Chief of Police*
and members of the Police
Commissioners Board*
• Appoints the Fire Chief* and
the members of the Fire
Commissioners Board*
• Appoints City Commissioners,*
Board Members,* City
Department and Bureau heads*
• Oversees harbor, airports and the
Department of Water and Power
• Oversees the Mayor’s Office of
Immigrant Affairs, the Mayor’s
Office of Economic Development,
and the Los Angeles Office of
International Trade
• Oversees City contracting
• Coordinates the City’s emergency
response activities
One of the most important responsibilities that
the mayor has is to create the City’s budget.
Every year the mayor prepares a proposed
budget for the coming fiscal year which is
submitted to the City Council for amendments
and approval. The City’s budget is made up of
money collected from a variety of sources
including taxes, fees, and fines as well as funds
from other city departments and government
agencies. These different sources of money
are categorized as “restricted” and “unrestricted”
funds. Restricted funds can only be spent on
specified services and programs. Unrestricted
funds can be spent on any city service or program.
NO COMPARISON. Without bias, using intellect only and putting Country First (not Party First) -- which job would more readily prepare one to be Vice President?
And these are just some of the small-town Mayor's job descriptions. . . . Sarah Palin was/is also GOVERNOR Palin!
NO COMPARISON! And Obama attacked first, and Governor Palin's answer was very valid, very necessary, and very restrained under the circumstances.
Posted by: Sami | September 5, 2008 4:48 PM
Regarding Sarah Palins statement many believe she made the statement against what was being said from Obama's camp regarding her abilities. Untrue statements that soon polically ensue a war that is common in every election. That within every battle, physical or with words, that someone will get hurt. However, hurting the group of people Jim Wallis had mentioned does not line-up with the documented character of a woman who is obviously the most dedicated representative there is. For that, I believe Sarah would apologize to those who were offended "if any" and do it with complete sincerity, for that is who she is - the real deal. So lets look at the situation for what it is, and understand the magnitude of the position being fought over and know that things will happen during every major battle. Remembering that "He who is without sin let him cast the first stone" or does that not apply in Politics?
Posted by: Patty | September 5, 2008 4:49 PM
I belong to a BB related to my profession. There is one person who continually makes hateful remarks and does not tolerate any opinion different than her own. I have come to believe that there are people of every profession and persuasion who like to disagree and argue in the faceless realm of cyberspace. This is "God's Blog" not "I'm going to go after anyone who disagrees with me and has a different faith blog" Jesus doesn't appreciate sarcastic rude remarks any more than he appreciates profanity or calling his other children names. Even Jesus' disciples disagreed on things but I can't think of anywhere in scripture where Jesus tolerated rude remarks because of disagreements.
Posted by: HelenLee | September 5, 2008 4:51 PM
I belong to a BB related to my profession. There is one person who continually makes hateful remarks and does not tolerate any opinion different than her own. I have come to believe that there are people of every profession and persuasion who like to disagree and argue in the faceless realm of cyberspace. This is "God's Blog" not "I'm going to go after anyone who disagrees with me and has a different faith blog" Jesus doesn't appreciate sarcastic rude remarks any more than he appreciates profanity or calling his other children names. Even Jesus' disciples disagreed on things but I can't think of anywhere in scripture where Jesus tolerated rude remarks because of disagreements.
Posted by: HelenLee | September 5, 2008 4:52 PM
I belong to a BB related to my profession. There is one person who continually makes hateful remarks and does not tolerate any opinion different than her own. I have come to believe that there are people of every profession and persuasion who like to disagree and argue in the faceless realm of cyberspace. This is "God's Blog" not "I'm going to go after anyone who disagrees with me and has a different faith blog" Jesus doesn't appreciate sarcastic rude remarks any more than he appreciates profanity or calling his other children names. Even Jesus' disciples disagreed on things but I can't think of anywhere in scripture where Jesus tolerated rude remarks because of disagreements.
Posted by: HelenLee | September 5, 2008 4:52 PM
Palin's comment was not meant as an insult to the hard working and commendable individuals that volunteer their time and energy to be community organizers. She was commenting on the fact that many belittle her experience as mayor and governor, while pulling a double standard and elevating Barack's experience as a community organizer to a comparable level as hers.
Like someone said earlier, everybody take a deep breath.
While being a community organizer is an admirable way to serve one's community, it is not on the same level as the experience of mayor or governor in terms of preparation for the oval office.
This is not an insult. It is an simple comparison as to what each one's experience has prepared them.
Posted by: jonathan bowden | September 5, 2008 4:52 PM
Peter S., I appreciate your humility, as one who has also occasionally written things with more bite than necessary. You'll find this is a pretty forgiving crowd and it would be refreshing to see apologies such as yours occur more often. Hope you'll stick around, and your apology is a good reminder that sometimes some of the rest of us need to tone things down.
Posted by: I and I | September 5, 2008 4:54 PM
Obama does not seem to want to encourage our citizens to take advantage of the endless opportunities to succeed in our great country. Instead, he wants the government to do it all.
Obama worked on the south side of Chicago, where such platitudes (as in many urban areas) are in fact utterly meaningless. To wit, those "opportunties" were affected by race, class and other things -- back in 1978 that part of the city actually suffered through race riots, and the American Nazi Party was strong there.
For those of you who remember when Obama made that "bitter" comment, it was in Pennsylvania during a stomp speech.
Not exactly -- it was about Pennsylvania, to be sure, but he made those remarks in San Francisco -- at a private fund-raiser with a bunch of high rollers. Truth be told, Hillary probably would have won Pennsylvania handily even had he not said that; outside of Philly it's a pretty conservative state with not many racial minorities.
Posted by: Rick | September 5, 2008 4:56 PM
I think that what has prompted all of the vitriol from the so-called Christian Right on this site is that they cannot fathom the reality that I and many Christians like me have seen through the phoniness and hypocrisy of the Republican Party. We have become tired of sitting in our pews and listening to our pastors take sides in the political battles. We have become frustrated and even angry at times to hear people say that our faith compels us to vote a certain way. No more!
We have not abandoned our faith but we have walked out of those churches that inundated us with Republican propaganda and tried to lead us to believe that we weren't really saved. I believe that Jim has steered clear of partisan politics, but he has offered us a refuge just as the new churches that we have found offers us isolation from the same old Republican mantra.
If you have been attracted to this site because you need spiritual encouragement, then I would advise you to resume your daily Bible reading, prayer, or even publications like 'Our Daily Bread." I am frankly very surprised at the caustic remarks posted here, and I have been equally offensive on some of my posts. From now until November, I intend to advocate strongly for Obama/Biden because I believe they are best qualified to lead our country out of its present morass.
Jeremiah 9:23-24 - This is what the Lord says: Let not the wise man boast of his wisdom or the strong man boast of his strength or the rich man boast of his riches. but let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the Lord, who exercises kindness, justice, and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight, declares the Lord.
Posted by: Sister Marie | September 5, 2008 4:58 PM
Why are we asking Palin to apologize for a relevant comment on one of Obama's "qualifications" for the presidency? Palin was not condemning the work of all community organizers, just Obama's puffery in inflating his achievements as a community organizer. To quote from the article "Making It" by Ryan Lizza in the July 21, 2008, issue of the New Yorker: "As a community organizer, he [Obama] tried to turn a partnership of churches into a political force on the South Side. But the work accomplished very little." What I would like to hear are some apologies and/or explanations from Obama regarding (1) his affiliation with convicted slum landlord Rezko and the state earmarks Obama arranged for Rezko and other slum landlords; (2) his personal and professional connections with anarchist Bill Ayers, whom Obama has referred to as "just a neighbor; (3) whether or not his campaign has received bundled foreign contributions from questionable donors; (4) response to accusations that campaign monies are being funneled through ACORN; (5) why Illinois legislative bills on which he never worked are now attributed to him; and (6) why we should consider him to have experience as a U.S. senator since he's spent most of his first term campaigning for the presidency.
Posted by: judithod | September 5, 2008 4:58 PM
LAE writes
"Obama made that bitter statement in an attempt to be sympathetic with the people of these parts... but Hillary in her quest to beat him made something more out of it... and it just took off after that... partly because some people wanted to believe that about him. However, I don't believe Obama is a mean spirited person that would deliberately make fun of poor people. He was one himself at one time."
I don't think anyone seriously accused Obama of being mean spirited, but many rural voters, myself included, found his comments to be quite condescending and demonstrating a profound lack of understanding of the issues that matter to rural voters. In Obama's defense, there are very few politicians that understand or respect the rural experience. Sarah Palin is, in part, such a strong pick because she has actually lived it and doesn't yet appear to be out of touch with her roots.
Russ writes:
"She does owe an apology, but then you have to remember that she was pandering to a segment of the population for whom the closest thing to a community organizer is the private security guard at their gated community."
I'm not sure whether that was a serious analysis of Palin's speech or just a cheap shot at the Republicans, but I would suggest that Palin's speech was targeting the blue collar men that voted for Hillary in the primary. Go into any small town barber shop and ask about community organizing. Chances are you'll have to explain what it is, and then defend it. Before I become the target of all the attacks on this blog I want to say these aren't all my opinions, but people percieve Obama's community organizing as a waste of time and resources; and, perhaps more importantly, community organizing is not something that real men do. Again, that isn't my view, but Palin's speech specifically targeted that audience and it's likely that they will be key to deciding the election.
Just another thought: I can't stand how either McCain or Obama portray their service as though they were just volunteering. It was a career for each of them, and no more important than what anyone else does to support their family.
Posted by: J.P. | September 5, 2008 4:59 PM
Two sermons does not a community organizer make. Jesus changed many things, all of history actually. Part of his mission was to divide, not bring together. Look at Mathew 10:
34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household."
I'd say Paul was a community organizer, since he started churches the world over. A church will change the look of a community, but a life-changing speaker, that's a different animal.
Posted by: Connie | September 5, 2008 5:02 PM
Folks, I guess I should apologize for my personal attacks against Jim toward the beginning of this thread. But I still stand by my opinions on the issues, I'll just try to state them minus character assassination. Truce?
Posted by: Peter S. | September 5, 2008 4:32 PM
------
I did not write this. There is an impostor here. I may apologize but I would never say "Truce?"
I was already on to Jim's newest post at that time. Boo Impostor.
Posted by: Peter S. | September 5, 2008 5:02 PM
As a mere Brit, I don't usually comment on purely internal US matters (tho' who gets to be President of the last remaining almost-superpower is of more than academic interest to most of the rest of us). However, this thread does seem to have aroused more than the usual amount of "sound and fury signifying nothing" - which might indicate a worrying degree of mental and emotional fragility on the partisans of both parties. letjusticerolldown was, I think, right to suggest breathing exercises. What's this blog going to be like in two months' time?
What aroused my interest is the reaction of some posters to the rather neat one-liner about Jesus being a community organiser (as opposed to a governor). It seems to me that those who deny this are on some fairly dodgy scriptural ground.
The Church, of which the disciples are the historical core, is a community. It exists to continue the work of Jesus (healing, reconciling, costly self-giving - see Philippians 2, not to mention all the places where Paul uses the image of the Church as the body of Christ) and in that way to be a signpost to the coming kingdom of God. Its central act is about sharing and nurturing (as well as thanking, blessing and remembering) in a context of service in imitation of the One who, "during supper.. got up from the table, took off his outer robe, and tied a towel around himself" (John 13:3-17). You might argue that it is the Spirit, rather than Jesus, who organises this community, but that suggests a tri-theistic rather than an orthodox Trinitarian theology.
Nor will it do to claim that Jesus worked only with individuals or small groups. Check a NT concordance for the word "crowd" (or "multitude" if you prefer your Gospel à l'ancienne mode). And (to take one example) read carefully Mark 6:30-46 alongside John 6:1-15. Between them they remind us that Jesus knew how to serve a crowd, how to work a crowd - and when to withdraw from it if it endangered God's mission. Conversely many of the one-to-one encounters resulted in the enlargement of the community which gathered around him (see, for example, Luke 8:1-3 and, among the accounts of healing miracles, Mark 10:46-52).
We encounter Jesus in relation to a community (the body of Christ, the living temple, the royal priesthood, the new Israel, etc.). We become disciples and receive our Christian formation in that community. We are saved as part of that community. We shall be raised in that community (cf I Thessalonians 4:13-17) where we shall experience the fullness of eternal life.
Posted by: Tony Dickinson | September 5, 2008 5:05 PM
Payshun -
It's flawed because of the obvious anachronism.
Posted by: Gordon | September 5, 2008 5:09 PM
The reason I would like to hear an apology is because I don't want to hear a youth to say to the pastor, "I don't want to be mocked as just a community organizer" If I had said that to Rev Art Brandenburg in 1980 our community would be without a credit union or the power of churches working together to be a more beloved community.
Obama said that he was 22 and it was not about Presidenital experience but doing service vs being a Wall street lawyer with big bucks.
Posted by: Ray Torres | September 5, 2008 5:15 PM
"NO COMPARISON. Without bias, using intellect only and putting Country First (not Party First) -- which job would more readily prepare one to be Vice President?
And these are just some of the small-town Mayor's job descriptions. . . . Sarah Palin was/is also GOVERNOR Palin!
NO COMPARISON! And Obama attacked first, and Governor Palin's answer was very valid, very necessary, and very restrained under the circumstances."
I am so glad you said that.
you really don't know what community organizers do do you? I was one so I can tell you what we did.
Community organizers work alongside local, state, and federal leaders to get the people that volunteer for all the things you mentioned Sarah Palin was responsible for. Without them Sarah would not be able to do her job. They are the backbone of this democracy.
I also realize that conservatives are not really good at reaching out to the urban poor but attacking community organizers is not the brightest way to go. They are our heroes. You ignore their roles and responsibilities at your party's peril.
p
Posted by: Payshun | September 5, 2008 5:16 PM
Uh, Sami, Wasilla is a town of less than 9,000 people. I suspect that many of the items on your job description are maybe not so demanding on such a small scale.
I think both Obama and Palin mention their local service, as community organizer and mayor, to show that they are in touch with the people. They know how to deal with local issues on a small scale.
I'm amused by the outrage of certain commentors here. Palin's speech was glib and I completely agree with Jim Wallis that it was insulting to the people who get things done. Why dismiss this insult as a "joke" when it was intended as an insult?
Posted by: no-man | September 5, 2008 5:17 PM
Not exactly -- it was about Pennsylvania, to be sure, but he made those remarks in San Francisco -- at a private fund-raiser with a bunch of high rollers. Truth be told, Hillary probably would have won Pennsylvania handily even had he not said that; outside of Philly it's a pretty conservative state with not many racial minorities.
Not true Rick. Obama was at a rally making a stomp speech when he made this statement (shown on tv), and the fact is most people knew he did not mean that in the context Hillary Clinton said he meant it. Nonetheless that whole guns and bitter statement took off like wild fire, and he became the party elitist. Secondly if Pennsylvania is such a conservative state why does this state usually vote democratic? I think what you meant was that Pennsylvania is mainly a white supremist state... it has nothing to do with being conservative or democratic.
Posted by: LAE | September 5, 2008 5:26 PM
Gordon,
Color me slow, but explain how?
p
Posted by: Payshun | September 5, 2008 5:26 PM
Payshun, with all due respect, according to your esteemed description of mayors and community organizers, OBAMA WOULD BE WORKING FOR PALIN.
Now, do you understand why it was such an insult for him to actually write an e-mail disparaging her work as a mayor?
All she was saying was, if being a mayor did not qualify her for VP, how could being a community organizer qualify one to be PRESIDENT?
And, according to your description of the two jobs, it seems she was right, that it is, ultimately, the MAYOR who has the ultimate responsibility, not those who work for the Mayor.
The buck stops with the top, not with the worker bees, no matter how great their work is. The greatest responsibility lies with the one at the top. Right?
Posted by: Sami | September 5, 2008 5:31 PM
Paychun,
There was no such thing as a "community organizer" in the 1st-century Roman world. Indeed, given the duties you described above, had there been, they would have been crucified. But the duties you describe make no sense in the life of Christ -
Community organizers work alongside local, state, and federal leaders to get the people that volunteer for all the things you mentioned Sarah Palin was responsible for."
The idea that the Roman (or Jewish) authorities would have worked alongside anyone - even Christ - to find people willing to serve various civic functions is laughable, as is the idea that Christ was busy organizing the community to make sure people had their needs met.
Posted by: Gordon | September 5, 2008 5:35 PM
Sami,
Yes it does but she still can't do the work without the worker bees which was my point. I think you are missing that. The work and her inability to do her job falls on her choices to delegate which is why she would be responsible for that. But the workers and the people that make that happen are the organizers. She would fail without them. She needs them more than they need her.
p
Posted by: Payshun | September 5, 2008 5:42 PM
People --
Did none of you watch the first night of the RNC? The theme, while hidden under all the attacks on the media, was on Community Service. They gave the speeches. Maybe it was all on CNN and not in prime time, but they do admire community service enough to give them a platform. One young lady built and sold houses to the urban poor at under market prices.
And -- if we are not supposed to look at people's personalities in these things -- then you have to ignore her pit-bull comments, hunting habits, and "meanness."
Obama's comments about clinging to guns and religion was regrettable as well. Can we all move on to the real issues now?
Posted by: frankie | September 5, 2008 5:54 PM
"There was no such thing as a "community organizer" in the 1st-century Roman world. Indeed, given the duties you described above, had there been, they would have been crucified. But the duties you describe make no sense in the life of Christ -"
Well let's start with that last part. You are wrong about that. They do make sense in the life of Christ and I would think I would not need to explain why.
Actually Jews did work alongside Romans in any number of capacities for a bunch of different reasons. Look at King Herod and his building projects. Had he not sought out Caesar's support in establishing his kingdom then the new temple would never have been built.
The High Priest was the spiritual head of the Jewish people and guess what? He was installed by the Romans. Roman and Jewish authorities would and did work with anyone that would help them to maintain the Jewish state. This structure included tax collectors... That's why the Jews were so angry. They were being over taxed, exploited, abused and trampled upon and in many cases by their own people.
Sami,
I mentioned only one form of organizing. There are plenty that don't fit what I defined above and they follow in the mold of the prophets... to say that Jesus wasn't a community organizer is to ignore what he did. he did organize communities beginning with his own. he then went on to build up a Samaritan community with the first ever evangelist (the woman at the well.)
The thing