As I told Joanne in an email, and in this post http://apprising.org/2009/02/apprising-ministries-post-on-family-force-5-sparks-conversation-at-interspiritual-beliefnet/, whatever differences we may have theologically, we do agree that the real problem is here:
We go to church and listen to Christian music, but we don’t read the Bible or grow in our faith on our own.

Perhaps our definition of “Christian” music needs to be broadened? Personally, I think the label has less to do with how many times they mention Jesus, and more to do with offering a Christian persective on life and the world around us. That doesn’t always involve mentioning Jesus in every song.
I don’t think their theological perspective has to agree with mine for me to listen to them – much as I don’t think other Christians’ theological perspective has to agree with mine for me to have a relationship with them and enjoy dialogue with them.
And I agree completely – we shouldn’t be looking to music, Christian or otherwise, to grow our faith. That’s our responsibility. Although I know that my faith has often been greatly enhanced by the music of both Christian and non-Christian artists.

My feeling is the definition of Christian music should be NARROWED. Why are so many bands with song lyrics which do anything but glorify God call themselves Christian? Because it is a target market for one, second only to their watered down beliefs (they want to feel good about themselves). In a world where there are fewer and fewer music choices that Christian parents can allow, these types of groups, Paramore, Reliant K, etc., try to sneak in under the wire. A sad commentary indeed.

Well, I was ready for my obligatory response of “these guys aren’t evangelists, their goal isn’t to get souls saved, they’re just writing songs that come from their experiences”…but then I read the complete email from Chap Stique. And, honestly, I was a little troubled. I’d like to give him the benefit of the doubt for a lot of it, but there was no clear instruction that Christ is the one and only way to Heaven.

Hello everyone, I am the one that originally sent the myspace message to apprising ministries concerning the band Family Force Five. I did indeed do it to test them, to see what their answer would be. Here is the problem with most of CCM. They don’t present the gospel, yet they make claims that people get saved at their concerts. Or, at the very least, people at their concerts claim that they went their and somehowe “got saved.” Yet, music does not save, Jesus saves, the Holy Spirit supernaturally convicts the sinner of their sins, and it produces repentance. For this to happen, the gospel message must be presented. The warm fuzzies we may get at a “Christian” concert does not mean an unsaved person has somehow changed their eternal destination simply be receiving a good feeling. Yet, the CCM bands continue to let this kind of thinking by their fans go. I say, if they really were concerned about God and the salvation of others, they would explain the gospel, or at least explain that you can’t get save by going to one of their concerts where they don’t present the gospel. But they won’t say that, because that would kill their paycheck.

Thomas,
“Or, at the very least, people at their concerts claim that they went their and somehowe “got saved.”
If you have a problem with people saying they got saved at the FF5 concert, wouldn’t you want to ask the individual, not the band, if you question the validity of their claim?
Look, I get the point you’re trying to make. So what would be the solution? Run them out of business? Run them out of the church? Make them feel really, really bad about themselves? Tell them to stop trying to lead everyone to hell with some crazy liberal false cultist doctrine? Make them say, “you know what, I’m wrong, maybe I’m not a Christian at all since this guy in the internet doesn’t like my music.” Read a statement of beliefs before their show? Have each band identify with a certain denomination so that baptists don’t have to watch non-baptists play a guitar? And certainly, we have to tell non-christians that this music DOES NOT represent Christ, so go somewhere else!! And as far as the “paycheck” goes, Joanne has a great piece about on this blog about that.
Do you know how ridiculous this seems to a non-Christian? When we tear each other down more than anyone else? “Heck, if other Christians don’t even like it, why should I even bother?”

I think that music produced by Christians is not that easy to define anymore. I think that there are certainly those worship songs used in services and meant to be an offering to God and I agree there should not be such a consumeristic spin on this music. I also believe that there is music meant to be evangelistic in nature, music meant to be uplifting and calming, and meant to possible recenter a person as they listen.
The difficult to define group has developed rapidly in the last 10 years or so. this is the music that is more mainstream. It is produced by Christian Labels. It is written and performed by Christian artists who profess their faith even on the concert stage at mainstream events. This music is meant largely to entertain, to carry a positive message and possibly infiltrate (for lack of a better term) the mainstream market. Now this cross over certainly does not hurt the artist sales, but another important aspect of it is that it brings the message to a group of people who would never turn to Christian radio. When we have such artists as Thousand Foot Krutch and Fireflight performing at the Winter X Games, and TobyMac’s song “ignition” featured as the intro song as the Arizona Cardinal enter the Superbowl, I think it is a good day. This is getting outside the bubble of the Christian subculture.
I recently had the opportunity to share some “Christian music with twin boys, sons of a friend of mine. They had been listening to Korn and the like. I introduced then to several hard driving “christian bands such as Thousand Foot Krutch, Pillar, and so on. It has taken some time but they are now listening to the positive message of these groups. I have seen these bands personally and know that there are times in their concerts where they share scripture and some of their experiences. I don’t see it as “sealing the deal” (in fundamentalese) but I see it as planting a seed.

you guys should go to this site, really listen to the lyrics and enjoy the music!

the site is http://www.thexroads.com (THE CROSSROADS)

I play lead guitar in a southern county gospel music band, and we always give an invitation at the end of the program. I have saw a
number of souls saved at singings.

I think if you are considering yourself as a christian band then Yes you should represent Christ in what you do and sing. If you claim to be a christian and just sing in a band then you should lead by example but not nessasarily sing about Christ. But as a christian you should lead your life for Christ.
Deb

What’s really sad is that you’ve raised some great questions here, but did so by highlighting someone on the fringe of christian blog-dom.
I surfed through the rest of that site and was really disappointed by it. That ministry obscures whatever points they may have by their demeaning tone and strange jargon.

Hank, I think you mean that the other blog is on the fringe of Christendom? I really don’t want to argue that, b/c I want to keep the focus on the music discussion. But I did need to provide the source so you could read the response yourself.
Try and focus on the questions we’re chatting about and not any concerns about the other blog. The issues are still relevant to Christian music.
Thanks!!
Joanne
host of the GS blog

The answer to this question is really deep. If the artist claims to be a Christian, signs with a Christian label, etc. yes I expect them to act and live in a way that glorifies Christ. The scriptures say not many of you should presume to teach because those who do will be judged more harshly. I signed on for that when I accepted the call to the ministry and I suppose they do as well. The problem though is something you alluded to. We assign these people way too much power over our lives. These people are flawed human beings just like you and me. they struggle and fall and fail just like the rest of us. Many of them are also very young. Often (again like the rest of us) their character has not always caught up with their talent. In any other field they would be accepted as young and inexperienced and allowed to grow, but because they are high profile they get pilloried. In my opinion we need to pray for these folks and take responsibility for our own spiritual growth. That way we wouldn’t be so shocked and dismayed when they struggle and would love and support them and help them toward restoration rather than shooting our wounded again.

If we praise the Lord in song or in word, or deed, than we are doing what is best to set the promotion of Jesus in motion.
There are no right or wrong ways to love the Lord, however, by setting an example by how we live our lives and obeying God’s laws, we show the world our Love and what God gives to us through his Son.

No ‘Christian Band’ can ‘make’ you a Christian any more than any preacher, church or sermon can. The substitutionary death and subsequent ressurection of Jesus ‘makes’ it possible for us to become Christians when we act upon the reality of what Christ’s atonement means for us.
On the other hand, Christians need to be able to srticulate their faith regardless of vocation: I happen to be a photographer – as a Christian, I need to represent myself in a manner that speaks well of my faith. I also need to be able to explain my faith, simply because I care about other people. It isn’t ‘love’ that makes me a believer, but I love because I’m a believer.
It’s dissapointing when artists who are believers try to hide or minimise their faith. You don’t need to wear it like a badge but you certainly shouldn’t feel the need to minimise it….

Christian music generally reaffirms that which the listener already believes and holds to be true; it rarely challenges a listener to believe. Oftentimes secular music does a better job at helping listeners seek and find God than Christian music does because secular music gets listeners to ask themselves questions like, “What do I believe in, who do I believe in?” while Christian music offers an author’s take on God like, “God you are so good, Lord I thank you, There’s victory in Jesus.”
Today’s American evangelical Christian music subculture generally serves as a way for soccer moms to have their kids attend concerts where there’s no alcohol or swearing from the band on stage and/or as a way for soccer moms to feel safe and comfortable listening to their Christian radio station in the car where nothing will offend them or hurt their child’s moral development.
I consider Christian music to be a lot like classical music– it appeals to a very small group of people in America, it generally ‘all sounds the same,’ and is ‘golf clap’ music– the kind of polite, elitist entertainment that can be very well done professionally but does not elicit the kind of screams and jumping up and down as the Jonas Brothers or Britney Spears do.

I agree with dave when he says that the answer is deep because my
perspective on this question is going to be all over the place.music
was made by GOD and for GOD to be worshipped.when we as christians
listen to christian music,(be it at church or at home)we shout,dance
give praise,and are encouraged. it goes right down to our soul moving
our spirit.and knowing that GOD is spirit,he makes us do these things.
however,if you’re not christian,or you don’t hang around in those circles,listening to the music won’t help you become christian.Now i’ve
seen instances where someone was brought to church,liked the music and
felt the sermon and CHRIST touched them and they converted,but that
was CHRIST using those tools to call that person to him. I as a musician
played praise and worship have seen the spirit move through the music
lifting people,but they WERE christians,of course it gets deeper.

>>it appeals to a very small group of people in Americahttp://blog.beliefnet.com/gospelsoundcheck/2008/12/contemporary-christian-radio-s.html
Joanne

My husband had a southern gospel quartet that he traveled and sang with for 25 years.They sang in churches all over the Pacific Northwest. The members changed from time to time, but they always had wonderful Christian experiences. There were times when they were sick or depressed and felt they had done a bad job, but those were some of the times that the Holy Spirit was most evident in the services. I know for a solid fact that the music reached people and many gave their hearts to the Lord because of the words of the songs that pricked their hearts and consciences.
Yes, music can bring people to Christ. I have witnessed it happen many times.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/music/interviews/2006/familyforce5-0506.html
Is it just me or was Chap Stique just trying to open up this person to the idea of getting into a relationship with God rather than listing off the Ten Commandments on a MySpace page? I mean, I definitely agree that he should have mentioned scriptures like Romans 10:9 that says “[b]ecause if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved” (Amplified Version) and Romans 3:23 that says “all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives” (Amplified Version). However, as this article says, the band is not about the typical CCM image, nor does its members intend to cater specifically to believers. Rather than criticizing Chap Stique for giving a less-than-perfect answer, perhaps someone (who has a problem with the response) could send them an e-mail and ask why he didn’t quote Scripture to the individual who asked the question “How do you become a Christian.” Rather than breaking each other down, as believers, we should build each other up and encourage one another in order to share Jesus’ message of sacrificial love, repentance, and forgiveness with those who need to hear it.

Anonymous, thanks for the link to the ChristianityToday interview. Your comments are the reason that I didn’t want to call the band out by name, because I haven’t been able to first, verify from them that they wrote it, and second, get their comments on it.
I don’t think any of us would argue (well, maybe some would, I don’t know) that to “become a Christian” involves an acknowledment of sin, repentence, and a relationship with Jesus. Another commenter said “It isn’t ‘love’ that makes me a believer, but I love because I’m a believer.” And I think that’s a really good way to say it.
I am waiting to get the band’s thoughts on the question, and when I do I’ll share it.
Thanks!
Joanne
host of the GS blog

I heard a Family Force 5 song for the first time on the radio the other day, I couldn’t hear anything distinctly Christian about it. So i went looking for their lyrics. In 32 songs I found 2 mentions of God, and 0 mentions of Jesus. The Matchbox20 song “How far we’ve
come” might just have more theological content in it.
In contrast, I recently attended a Casting Crowns concert. During the concert, the words were shown up on the screen so the crowd could join in. at several points throughout the night, lead singer Mark Hall told the stories about how the songs came about (some stories a quite sad), there was even a brief sermonette on Psalm 1 as an intro to one of their songs called Slow Fade. At one point towards the end of the concert, he was sitting on the front of the stage at this church, the rest of the band was off the stage, and he challenged people along the lines of “this concert is just a concert. Bands will come and go, concerts will come and go, this concert does not go home with you, your church service does not go home with you, your pastor doesn’t go home with you and live with you. God’s mission is so much bigger than a concert.” He also challenged us that there were things that we as Christians hold on to which prevent us from serving God -sins, our comfort, our dreams and goals. He also shared a brief Gospel message for any non-Christians in the crowd and encouraged them to talk to someone.
The problem with alot of CCM, like any music really, is that people listen to it over and over. if it has poor or sloppy theology, they are essentially being taught over and over again, every time they listen. Just as secular songs teach it’s listeners a particular way of thinking. Quite frankly, there isn’t a whole of Christ in it to the point where I have many times I heard a song and had to ask myself: is this song about God/Jesus, or is it about a girlfriend? Sometimes it’s really hard to tell. Also, if I was a non-Christian, what am I learning about God from this song. Still I wonder if the lack of Gospel in CCM is a reflection of the lack of Christ-centered teaching in our churches. I’ve written a few songs in the last year, all of which grew out of serious reflection and study of God’s Word.
This post is not to say that CCM groups are evil or anything. I think maybe their emphasis is in the wrong place.

Hey, all, great discussion! Let me throw this out for some feedback:
Family Force 5, since we all know now who I was talking about, don’t necessarily play only in Christian venues. They did the Warped Tour, for example. Does that, or should it, make a difference in the lyrical content of their songs? Or does a band like that show others about Jesus by their actions off stage?
Because Casting Crowns, while definitely a Christian band, is playing some mainstream and very public events. They did the Christmas in Washington thing with Dr. Phil in December and this morning performed at the National Prayer Breakfast.
Just curious what you think.
Joanne
host of the GS blog

My sister had made the comment the other day: “not many Christian bands are Christian.” I must disagree and told her that the Christian bands I’m familiar with ARE! When I listen to a “Christian” Christian band, I feel it in the Spirit. I’m also familiar with some of their views on things. Most concerts I’ve attended, the band members make it very clear. Some sponsor worthwhile charities. A Sonic Flood concert several years ago is where I became a sponsor of a child in Worldvision. I can’t recall attending a concert where witnessing did not happen. To answer the subject question,yes, Christian music should and does help one either become Christian or to grow in their walk. And for myself, it always has done just that. If you are Christian, you should be able to discern in your Spirit if the band is genuine. The answer given by the band, BTW, was perfectly correct, it is what Jesus commanded:”to love.” More could’ve been added such as worship God. Most likely they felt the questioner already knew the routine answer. I feel this is unfair scrutiny and is not building up other Christians.

“Family Force 5, since we all know now who I was talking about, don’t necessarily play only in Christian venues. They did the Warped Tour, for example. Does that, or should it, make a difference in the lyrical content of their songs?”
It depends what they want to do. I don’t know how you could have any less Christian lyrical content in a song than what Family Force 5 have. I’m sorry, I just don’t see anything distinct in 30/32 of their songs. The problem with Family Force Five’s answer, if indeed it was them, is that it is a gospel of salvation by works. There is nothing about sin and repentance or faith or forgiveness in their answer. That is inadequate. The answer to “How does one become a Christian?” is not LOVE! or “The best way to experience the message of Christ is by loving those in need, caring for others, and being selfless!” That ispart of it. It’s not that we do not love, but love is the OUTWORKING of faith, of the Spirit. Don’t confuse the two! Read a gospel or read 1 Corinthians 15 if you want to read what the good news is.
Putting FF5 aside for now, as I don’t think they’re a very good example, I might talk more generally. I think it depends on what the band wants to do. If a band wants alot of mainstream airplay on mainstream stations they would do well to remove most references to the exclusivity of Christ, sin, repentance, salvation or anything that might be offensive to anyone and try to write stuff that just gets people to think. Then perhaps once they are established, then they may work and witness behind the scenes as they interact. Certainly the commercial stations in my country would have very little to do with anything to do with Christianity, except to ridicule it. Christian bands may get mainstream airplay, but will their Christian songs about sin and repentance get airplay? Don’t hold your breath.
Chris Daughtry is not a Christian band in the CCM sense of the word, yet he thanks Jesus in his CD-liner notes, and I believe in Australia he may be signed under a Christian label. I was surprised to hear this, though upon reflection some of his songs are infused with a sense of repentance, sorrow and forgiveness even if there is no Gospel there.
It comes down to a question of culture. Christian sub-culture vs culture? We can sometimes hide away in our little church bubbles to the point where we are not connected in anyway to the wider culture in which non-Christians spend their time. Are Christians better off creating better Christian subculture or creating superior culture, more widely accepted and with more opportunities to engage the wider culture? Is the world? It’s a difficult thing I’m working through at the moment, but yeah, as Christians we need to be distinctly different from the world, engaging culture to find where it’s idols are and preach against them through Jesus.
My closing thought for now is this: in the New Testament, people were not persuaded by songs. People may be helped and informed by them but someone still needs to engage the listener with the claims of the Gospel, tell them about sin, idolatry and how Jesus is the only way to salvation, through faith in him, the completed work of the cross, his resurrection and that he is coming to judge the living and the dead. You can make a song with this content (I would seriously contend that most current popular CCM contains very little Gospel in it), but you still need to be on about persuading, convincing, conversing, studying and showing the Gospel in word and deed. This takes more than a song.

I think that music is to rejoice and to celebrate how one feels about christ and god. The Bible is the only way to learn how to be a good christian.

When one listens to Shannon Wexelberg or Whitley Phipps,.. I have had to search my heart to discover how sincere is my relationship with GOD. Mainly becasue Shannon’s music is all about praising & lifting up the name of God. I’ve known Whitley before he became this amazing messenger of God thru his music ministry. He was then as he is now a fine Christian of spiritual integrity. Christian artists like Shannon & Whitley are outstanding examples of transformative Christian music.

There are so many non christian groups trying to do christian music because there is money in it.Christian music is to honor our Lord not in only the words but the Music that you play.It is bring in the power and love of the Holy Spirit.People can be healed in the presence of just praising the Lord.Jumping around and yelling to loud music does not show reverence to the Lord.God knows our hearts and will be in our presence when he knows it’s for real.Music alone can worship the Lord.Remember the walls that came down in the bible because of just the insturments being played,it is the same in our lives,when we are in the presence of the Lord in our praise time he then can do the changes in our life.Remember we can be deceived even in the music we listen to so be sure it is annointed.You can feel the anointed music and when its’ not.

Dawn Marie, that’s a good thought except there’s one problem: there really isn’t any money in Christian music, at least for the artist. For the labels? Maybe, but then again, they’re always the ones who make money. It’s a myth that music artists are rich. In fact, quite the opposite.
In Christian music, most of the bands you hear about – apart from the handful (and I mean, HANDFUL) of artists like SCC, MWS, Third Day and MercyMe – are made up of artists who have a working spouse at home. They wouldn’t be able to do what they do without the help of a spouse earning an income. Most of them live show to show, and in fact, have to pay to join tours. So it actually costs them money to tour with bigger named artists. It’s crazy.
But you do raise a good point to consider: for some bands that are on the cusp of Christian/mainstream, it might be easier to get a record deal in Christian music than mainstream.
Joanne
host of the GS blog

I do think that gospel music is very important. It uplifts, encourages, and draws you in to worshiping God. I am a big fan of gospel music. There have been many times it has gotten me through the roughest times in my life. When you are in your lowest valley it lets you know that God is there. A lot of gospel music has come from people who have gone through soemthings; some deep things in their lives to help them get through and raise them up when they were down.

I think that it’s important for the individual to read the bible, walk with God and build a relationship on a daily basis with God! Following Jesus and carrying the cross as Jesus did is important! Seeking advice and being guided by the Holy Spirit is extremely important! Fasting and talking to God is another critical ingredient to our mission here on earth… It’s for God’s glory. “Love” is only part of our walk with God. Abraham walked with God, and David did the same. Let us not forget that God has not changed only our ways have changed. Man is only an instrument to gather the Lords sheep and serve our Father Almighty. I’m a musician and have written many songs. I feel if we are going to serve God and honor Him, then yes, ALL music is for His glory only! God will NOT share His glory with any other. We must lift Him up, glorify Him and be diligent for the Lord Jesus Christ!