Quote: “That it’s a gay love story will no doubt leave some viewers upset, but it is a story that desperately needs telling nonetheless–” People need to get over the fact that gay people exist. Besides that, the film looks very intriguing and I can’t wait to see it.>

Don’t ask don’t tell. It is what used to be called decency. the western populace knows full well it exists. Somewhere.>

Don’t ask don’t tell. It is what used to be called decency. the western populace knows full well it exists. Somewhere. On a fence in Wyoming. It was nailed there with Matthew Sheppard>

There’s nothing decent about being forced to live a lie, to betray who you are and who you love. There’s nothing decent about forcing people to lead cold, empty lives devoid of love because they don’t love as you do. The film tells that tale eloquently, and speaks a truth about love, whether you are gay or straight.>

Anatomy? Love? The film left out speaking about some aspects of truth? Matthew Sheppard was murdered by a fellow drug addict. Still unimagineably tragic but certainly not a crime against his private love life with his partners. Truth? What was nailed to that fence was a human being that didn’t deserve it no matter who he was. Truth.>

The revisionist description of the torture/murder of Matthew Shepard and the summary dismissal of the significance of his murder is characteristic of conservative thought. His mother said afterward that she didn’t blame the young men who killed her son so much as society for giving them permission to do so. ( She is a woman of uncommon wisdom.) I’ve had three friends murdered through the years , in hate crimes that have never been solved; which is in and of itself ; a hate crime. To those who do not remember the details of Matthew Shepard’s killing ; it was a crime of such wanton brutality; it stunned and disgusted the civilized western world, far beyond American borders.And it brought to the forefront ; the core perspective of conservative religion as exemplified by the actions of the Baptist minister from Kansas ; Fred Phelps.>

Theme of the betrayal of marriage … how interesting. I have yet to see the film (but have read the short story), but even without seeing it, I know that if these two men had been allowed to have the relationship they were drawn to, the one with each other, there would have been NO betrayal of marriage. They would have been faithful to each other in the way they could not be to the women they married. Yet one more reason to encourage gay marriage or civil unions or civil partnerships or whatever you want to call them – there will be fewer women (and men) with broken hearts because their spouses felt the pressure to be “normal.”>

At this time of the year, people may become more thoughtful, more benevolent…even those angry, self-righteous souls who are adamant and belligerent in their insistance that they speak for God, who created all of us. Out of their fear of judgment, they condemn those whom they do not understand, unaware that their own un-developed capacities for emotional intimacy are probably “leftovers” from their own early childhood…when they did not receive sufficient kindness from parental authorities to meet their needs. They are angry when others search for, and find, what they may need. I do not mean to suggest that they need homosexual affairs…rather, they are stunted in their lack of capacity to love, to forgive, to understand. Maybe this film will help them discover the courage of those who seek to find, even in distress, what they could not receive at home. In ancient Greece in the time of Socrates, heterosexual married men spent hours in the gymnasium daily, surrounded by carefully sculpted, beautiful bodies of other naked men, and went home to their wives and children. Some did, indeed, experience sexual intimacies with younger men they admired…and they were not condemned for it. They were not considered “queer,” or disturbed, or sinful for their choices. And they were elected to the Senate as respected leaders, husbands, fathers, and mentors. Would our nation, today, be at war in Iraq, if Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, and their ardent followers had lived in the same freedom as Socrates and his colleagues? Remember, he was married to Xantippe–and about all we know of her is that she once threw boiling water on her husband, in a rage. Connubial bliss? No wonder, the old man enjoyed his talks at the gymnasium with younger men! Peace. See this film, please.>

I thought the movie was disgusting.Of course the so called movie will get HIGH REVEIWS it already has. I do not believe what they did to Matthew Sheppard should have ever been done.He was just a young man starting his life.But my thought was this I can’t see any straight person going to see this so called movie.This movie could cause more KILLINGS like Matthew.>

Brokeback Mountain “could cause more KILLINGS like Matthew”? What twisted logic is that? Remember the line about “Guns don’t kill people; people kill people”? The sad truth is that Ms. Ledford’s post is saying that, according to her reasoning, someone could be motivated by their impression of this film to murder someone else. I saw Brokeback Mountain last weekend and (trust me on this one) plenty of straight people were there. And, thankfully, not one of them was motivated when the movie was over to kill any of the gay people who were also there.>

It’s been a long time since I was moved by a movie the way Brokeback Mountain moved me when I saw it last night. I saw it in Harvard Square with a friend from Boston College. We got into an argument on the subway about whether Jack Twist (Jake’s character) was killed in a tire blow-out accident or killed in a Matthew Shepherdesqe killing. I argued for the latter, stating that a wife in denial about her husband’s sexuality becomes a widow in denial if her husband death is “gay-related.” What really moved me was how difficult it was for both Ennis and Jack to get in touch with the language of their feeling for each other until it was late in the 20 year relationship. It seems to me that this is partly due to the fact that between their ritualistic trips to Brokeback Mountain a few times a years, they lived wholly other lives. How could they express those feelings to one another when they did not even express it within themselves? I’d like to believe that their difficulty was also due to the time in which their love affair occurred, namely 1963 to 1983/4. I’d also like to believe that society is more open on gay matters now than it was then. But if a gay man or woman deals with his or her gayness in the shadows—as Jack Twist had to he was home in Texas yearning for Ennis (that is, he went to Texas for some male sex action)—-then it does not matter whether today’s society is more open to homosexuality. At the end of the day we all choose our societies. It would not surprise me that that Brokeback Mountain will be the torch song for many deeply closeted men and women even during these so-called openly gay and lesbian times.>

Choosing ones own society is fine but in the real world of 2005/2006 part of accepting the truth about same sex attraction is also having to accept the often superficial cultural baggage that gay life has to offer….and the committed monogamous relationship portrayed in the ang lee movie is not held in high regard in the gay community.>

“Committed monogamous relationship…is not held in high regard in the gay community.” Then why do so many of us want to get married? Why have my partner and I been faithful since the day we met in 1996? Get out of the bars and the sex clubs, Jere. Faithful gay men are to be found.>

I thought it was beautiful love story between 2 men…it was full of betray&hurt–but I do believe it had 2 b shown &told ..that love has no border…but people do….>

“Then why do so many of us want to get married? I commend you for your fidelity to your partner but your a minority of a minority…”So many?” that is highly doubtful. Finding a needle in a haystack would be easier than finding a faithful (monogamous) gay man…and you’re making assumptions about who I am but I’m just making some observations.>

“Then why do so many of us want to get married? I commend you for your fidelity to your partner but your a minority of a minority…”So many?” that is highly doubtful. Finding a needle in a haystack would be easier than finding a faithful (monogamous) gay man…and you’re making assumptions about who I am but I’m just making some observations.” Depends on where you go. If you want to meet those not committed to monogamy, go to the bars and clubs. But if you want the monogamous ones, look elsewhere. Believe me, they exist, and probably in larger numbers than you would believe. And many of them used to go to the bars and clubs, too. Two thoughts as this is a religious site:- A lot of gay men here in the UK are divorcees. Ignoring the obvious complaint about the damage to the institution of marriage, what about their wives and (in some cases) children? Is it fair on THEM to drive men to marry when they aren’t “that way” inclined? And if it’s your God-given nature that makes you hetrosexual, and God will cast all those who aren’t into Hell, have you seriously asked yourself what kind of God you worship? One who loved mankind so much that he deliberately created some of them so He could lovingly cast them into eternal damnation for fllowing their God-given nature? Because, believe me, for many of those who are homosexual, it is their nature. Which is why so many of them fail so miserably when they are hetrosexual. Especially if they get married. Walk in peace with you diety.>

I wanted to comment not on the movie which I haven’t yet but plan to, see, but on your comments. I have been friends for years with several gay people of both sexes and I find them to be every bit as monagamous as straight people. Yes the men are forced to break their viws but they were forced vows. They had to fit into society or be ostracized. Straight men, and women, have no such excuse. I was taught in curch (I am now a pagan) that god is Love. If God has a true problem with non-violent homosexuals (Sodom was Violent) He/She will deal with it. As God will deal with all murderers.>

“Then why do so many of us want to get married? I commend you for your fidelity to your partner but your a minority of a minority…” No one should be forced to get married…and people of same sex orientation have the same opportunity as anybody else to enter in the pearly gates or whatever you believe…in other words I don’t believe that gayness of itself is an automatic ticket to hell. But, setting spirituality aside my point is about the choices we all make and in the gay community the choice of monogamy doesn’t seem to be revered or practiced. Brokeback Mountain is more of an ideal than the reality. Being gay seems to be all about having fun and of course there is nothing wrong with that. I do believe that God wants all of us to be happy but I don’t believe he wants us to be in a perpetual state of adolesense. If God is love and love is God can a life of serial sex partners bring anyone (regardless of orientation) closer to him or to the person they are with or to themselves?>

Excellent comments…all of them deserve some recognition. As a gay woman in a committed relationship for 7 years it took the death of both my parents to allow me the freedom to be who I am. I have enough scars in my psychological being when I tried my hardest to fit into a straight world only to find out that trying to live a lie produces no fruit but produces rotten fruit and the stench of it lives on in my soul forever. What would my life be like without these scars that have taken up so much room in my psyche. I was sent to a girls home…beaten by my parents…tortured emotionally…sent to juvenile hall…sent to counselor’s…all in the name of Southern Baptists rituals. Yes I still believe in God as a God of Love but it wasn’t until the death of my parents that my world opened up to live a life that I was given from birth. My parents were from the bible belt so I cannot blame them for trying to mold me into their society. I only wonder what would have I become if they would have only let me live my life instead of all the years of torture I had to endure. This movie is another example of 2 people trying to live according to society’s rules but in the end nothing changes because they still love each other. No rules can break the bond of Love between 2 people because Love is the strongest force in the universe.>

Brokeback, the movie and the theme is an abomination! Men can have a love and resspect for each other and that is of God. Any movie that in any way makes that aberrant behavior less than the destructive behavior that it is can only be labled as blasphemy.>

I am Christian, I’m straight, and I don’t plan to see this movie. I’m here out of despair for the deceit that’s coming from Hollywood. I’m sad, angry, and feel as a Christian I need to speak out against the justification this movie seeks to place on an act of adultery and perversion. Now before you begin either flaming me or dismissing this post, I am not a homophobe. After being in the banking and restaurant industry for years, I’ve made many friends who are gay. Friends with big hearts, great character and work ethics, and whom I’d truly love to spend part of my eternity with in Heaven. Friends who are leading their lives for good in many ways. They are good at painting on a brave smile, but in reality, most of them are truly sad, lonely and unfulfilled. This emptiness and destructive lifestyle isn’t any different than the friend who has all the good intentions and potential in the world, yet chooses to drink excessively every chance he gets. I have plenty of those type of friends as well. I’m sure we all do for that matter. I pray for their redemption as well as my own. A sin is a sin in God’s eyes. I’ve left many of my destructive and sinful behaviors behind, and quite honestly feel far better and fulfilled in my life as a result. Relieved almost, actually. I unfortunately still wrestle with smoking, and eventually will quit. Is that the same as leading a homosexual lifestyle? According the the Gospel, yes. I am no more perfect or holy than my gay or drunkard friends, but I have accepted Christ, asked for redemption and admitted my sins. I continue to strive for that perfection and leave the sinful behaviors behind as we are called to do. Do not seek justification for that which we are told is wrong. Nowhere is it stated that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of violence. It is stated that a man shall not lay with a man. Period. Just as it is stated that our bodies are temples and we should not seek to destroy them. It doesn’t give me a pass just because Hollywood glorified smoking for years and Phillip Morris placed nicotine in the cigarettes to chemically ‘hook’ me. God bless you all.>

Steve,you obviously take the word of the bible verbatim and that is your right. But let’s be frank…you believe the way you do because you believe everything the bible says is true. That is a choice. There is no way to prove any religion and that is why they call it faith. You can believe that gays are evil but there are many Christians who would take issue with your literal acceptance of selected Bible passages. Steve if you take comfort in believeing that the end is coming and gays are going to be banished to hell then I doubt there is anything that will change your mind. However I’m happy that rational thinking people of wisdom throughtout ages have overcome the negative doomsayers like yourself to solve many of mankind’s ills through creative innovation, the contemplation of nature and the help of God. (read the life of Benjamin Franklin) I have always believed that our dreams and visions are a self fulfilling prophecy…I would rather believe for a better future than believe in the judgemental, negative, end of the world baloney that people have been talking about for centuries and that I believe that you Steve are hoping for. If you want to believe that the world is going to hell in a hand basket, fine. That’s your prerogative….but don’t try and infect everybody else with this negative vision…many of us are not interested.>

I haven’t seen the movie – yet. I’m not much into love stories (weird for a woman, huh?), but after reading the preview – & comments – I really want to see it. As for homosexuality being more accepted in America today – there is still a long, long way to go. Tinka – maybe your gay friends are unhappy & lonely because your religion has labeled them evil & made them outcasts. Ask God – not religious leaders – ask God yourself. And you might get help to quit smoking if you take responsibility yourself & stop blaming Hollywood & the tobacco companies. In my opinion, religious leaders in this country oppose gay marriages because then we would have actual data showing they have longer, more monogamous relationships than hetrosexuals. So, Jere – while you’re in that haystack, could you look for a faithful straight guy? I’d tell you what to look for but I’m not sure he exists…..>

“Now before you begin either flaming me or dismissing this post, I am not a homophobe. After being in the banking and restaurant industry for years, I’ve made many friends who are gay. Friends with big hearts, great character and work ethics, and whom I’d truly love to spend part of my eternity with in Heaven.” As a Christian who just so happens to be born black and gay, I have a hard time believeing what you say. I know because it is my experience you are trying to tell me about. I hardly detect that you truly believe these alleged people that you know are your “friends”. Such is simply a cognitive separation and denial of your own prejudice. I know white people who insist that they are not racist and use their “black friends” as evidence of such, but surrounding yourself with black people don’t prevent you from being racist anymore than surrounding yourself with trees makes you an environmentalist. I’m sorry, but the way you said it makes it hard for me to believe you. “Friends who are leading their lives for good in many ways. They are good at painting on a brave smile, but in reality, most of them are truly sad, lonely and unfulfilled.” Actually, gayness and happiness are not mutually exclusive. There are plenty of gay people who are happy with their livee. I am one of them. Being gay does not cause one to have unhappiness. Rather, society’s prejudice toward gay people causes many to feel shame and anguish. Without stigma and prejudice, many more gay people would lead happy lives and not lives of despair, as was portrayed in this movie. “This emptiness and destructive lifestyle isn’t any different than the friend who has all the good intentions and potential in the world, yet chooses to drink excessively every chance he gets.” I’m sorry, but God-love for another human being is not the same as chemical dependency on alcohol. To say so is to degrade my humanity as a gay person. It is beyond insulting. No straight “friend” who was truly honest with themselves would ever say this to a gay person in Christian love. It utterly objectifies them and reduces their capacity to love to just sex acts. It relegates the from the status of person to that of a thing.>

I have to agree with Tinka. I would like to see the movie because of the 2 stars that are in it. But I will not see this movie because I will not support homosexuality in Hollywood. I do believe in God and the Bible. The Bible says it is wrong then it is so.. I love my girl friends dearly but I don’t want to be intimate with them. I think many woman are very beautiful but I don’t want them. These times are just a mess.>

“The Bible says it is wrong then it is so..” I take it you don’t wear cotton/poly blends? It’s funny how many like to cherrypick homosexuality out of the Bible while violating all the other nitpicky little codes in there. It is also interesting to note how many do reduce love between gay people to base sex acts. To me, this indicates either a dehumanization of the gay individual, or a deep affliction in which the person thinks of relationships as solely being acts of sex. I have gay friends and I *wish* I’d have felt the love some of them have for their long term partners. I certainly haven’t. If someone doesn’t want to support “the lifestyle” and doesn’t want to see the movie, that’s fine. But their convictions don’t indicate to me that “times are just a mess”. I personally see times as just a mess when everyone figures that their personal dislikes should dictate the actions of people totally unrelated to them. What is a mess is the hell it is to BE gay in a lot of places where your genuine love for a partner is consistently battered by the “godly love” of the people that would verbally and physically abuse you for being different. Why do gay people bother you naysayers so much? Because they’re not godly enough? I’m an atheist, thus actively ‘ungodly’, and gay folks seem to twist your knickers more than my existence does. What’s up?>

“I have to agree with Tinka. I would like to see the movie because of the 2 stars that are in it. But I will not see this movie because I will not support homosexuality in Hollywood.” You will not see a movie simply because it has two gay characters in it? I find it odd that the American public is just fine with movies with serial killers, child molestors, and rapists in them, but when there are gay people in them they get bent out of shape and hysterical that someone actually is actually acknowledging that we exist and are human beings who live and love like everyone else. “I do believe in God and the Bible.” I do too, but I, and many other Christians, don’t agree with your interpretation of the Bible and know that the mind of God is beyond mere human prejudice. God is beyond our minds and conception and cannot be confined and idolized into a fixed set of man-made interpretations of a book. “The Bible says it is wrong then it is so..” The Bible says that re-marriage after a divorce is wrong, that a disobedient child should be stoned, that women aren’t to speak in church. The Bible is over 6,000 years old and the cultural of those who wrote the Bible is similar to modern Iran. Much has changed since then and God has not stopped speaking to his people simply because the Church stopped cannonizing historic letters and sermons. “I love my girl friends dearly but I don’t want to be intimate with them. I think many woman are very beautiful but I don’t want them.” Same in reverse. I can appreciate the beauty of a woman, but that doesn’t mean I want to cuddle, kiss, and have sex with one. I like other men. That is how God made me. God made you a heterosexual, but that doesn’t mean he made you any “better”, just different. “These times are just a mess.” Yes, still today, in many parts of the world gay people are execute and imprisoned in places like Africa where many claim to be “Christian” and in parts of the Middle East. More have learned about keeping with the dark side of Christianity, the Inquisition, etc. and few have learned what it truly means to exhibit the loving compassion that Jesus demonstrated to his followers and the rest of the world. The President has declared war on gay people and deemed them inferior and underserving of equal protection of the law. He has exhbited an openly hostile position to civil liberties and has taken us into an expensive and dangerous war. I agree, the times are bad indeed!>

“Brokeback, the movie and the theme is an abomination!” What? Like pork? After akl, the same original Hebrew word “to’evah” is used. It is used in a ritualism context, most nearly meaning “riturally unclean”. Any good Jewish or Christian scholar of the Old Testament can tell you this. The question is, do Christians still follow the Old Testament today, ALL of it? “Any movie that in any way makes that aberrant behavior less than the destructive behavior that it is can only be labled as blasphemy.” As blasphemous as say, saying the world is round and revovles around the sun? Yes, that too was once condemned as “blasphemy” in the eyes of the Church and its congregation. And, It took the Church nearly 500 years to recognize the wrong and apologize. Shall be forced to wait again?>

Greling, I’ve been mulling this over before responding. My knee jerk reaction would be to lash out in return. But that doesn’t address the question at hand, nor is it the way we should treat each other. It is easy to be heartless and rude to one another here on this faceless cyber board. I found this in my morning email from Beliefnet. It is from Proverbs Chapter 2. I wish there were a way to change the font so it would stand out. In my heart, I know that my friends (and no, they are not alleged, thank you!) are truly good and genuine people. While many believe that being gay was the way God made them, I’m not convinced. You and I probably agree on one thing – that God would not make one of his beloved creations in such a way that they are born sinners. The sin comes of our own free will. Where we part company would probably be, is homosexuality a sin? My friend Ralph, for instance, says he knew early on because at 7 years old he was ‘playing doctor’ with the nieghbor boy across the street. Ok, so was that ‘instinctively him’ or was it an idea that was allowed to be transferred into an action and grew from there? Where Ralph gave that thought of intimacy with another boy time to take root in his mind, do most other boys dimiss the fleeting thought immediately? I certainly understand the points brought up about some things in the Old Testament. There are certain laws set forth in the Old Testament, particularly in Leviticus, that truly make sense even today. Some that made sense for the times, and some that I just can’t grasp the reasoning behind. eg. the non-blended fabric requirement. We then are faced with the task of ‘which old law stays and which goes?’ What was of Divine requirement, and what did the Bible scholars perhaps throw in of their own (purposely or inadvertantly)? And finally, “Such is simply a cognitive separation and denial of your own prejudice”…..that is a nice and tidy way for you to turn the tables back on me, isn’t it? You assume I harbor prejudice and justify such by calling it sin. From my point of view, I see the behavior as sin, and yet love the sinner. We (and millions of other Christians) will apparently remain at an impasse on this aspect of the argument until it is settled whether God intended this same sex lifestyle or not. My comparison to smoking or an alcoholic for example is virtually sacreligious and the deepest of insults to you. I regret that, as I don’t intend to degrade you as a person. You see, we can probably both agree smoking and drinking is a sin. I’m sure we can both agree they are harmful to the body, and the body can become dependent (or accustomed to) on the chemicals and physical and pshycological effects of the acts. These behaviors also become a part of the person’s self identity and part of ‘me’, if you will. ‘To reject my behavior is to reject me!’ Well, if I choose to label with myself as ‘a smoker’ but not see the smoking as a sin, I can become quite rejected and put out with such views of others. When many believe that homosexuality is something placed within them by God, not a chosen behavior (be it subconsciously chosen perhaps), then my feelings would truly be seen as a prejudice. Prejudice, in this case, being a non-acceptance of another due to some God given aspect over which they had no choice. If that is truly the case with homosexuals, then God forgive me. I remain with the statements earlier made, that I do truly love my friends and pray for their salvation as well as my own. I have to be honest, I don’t believe in my heart that it is a ‘born with you’ trait. I liken it to a behavior choice as is smoking or drinking. I too admit to having a sinful behavior that I wrestle and struggle with, and pray to overcome. About the best both of us can do is to really look at the passage above, read and pray about it. I’m sure we can both argue it’s meaning for our own side till we’re blue in the face. What matters is what He intended, no? Again, God Bless.>

Sorry, I put the Bible quotation in my above post between carrots (brackets) and it didn’t post. Here it is: My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you cry out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures; then you will understand the fear of the LORD and find the knowledge of God. For the LORD gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding; he stores up sound wisdom for the upright; he is a shield to those who walk in integrity, guarding the paths of justice and preserving the way of his saints. Then you will understand righteousness and justice and equity, every good path; for wisdom will come into your heart, and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul; discretion will watch over you; understanding will guard you; delivering you from the way of evil, from men of perverted speech, who forsake the paths of uprightness to walk in the ways of darkness, who rejoice in doing evil and delight in the perverseness of evil; men whose paths are crooked, and who are devious in their ways.>

Tinka- After reading your comments and the Biblical passages you posted I can see you haven t got a clue or you didn t even understand Grelings response to your original comments. Unfortunately, like many, you re more concerned about being right than being Christian. Well I have a Biblical passage for you: You have eyes— can t you see? You have ears—can t you hear? Don t you remember anything at all? Mark 8:18 I m sorry Tinka but Greling got it right when he used the term cognitive separation in describing your denial of prejudice. You may not know that you are prejudice but you are. By saying: While many believe that being gay was the way God made them, I’m not convinced. Why do you have to be convinced? Why do you care? Do you want to learn something new or just proselytize your beliefs? I amazed that after reading this complete thread you didn t grasp the humanity of the many comments .and there were some great ones like desertgirl247 who said: Love is the strongest force in the universe ..great line couldn t have said it any better. But Tinka, you didn t like the tenor of the comments and so you put a period on what we have all learned. It is clear that you have staked out your religious ground and the brand of Christianity you want to practice. Out of the hundreds of Christian religions some of which allow women into the clergy and gays to marry, you have chosen the fundamentalist understanding of the Bible. But make no mistake, that is a choice and it is more of a choice than a gay person has over their own nature and identity. Your analogy about smoking and alcohol also does not have the ring of truth. You can choose to be a smoker and possibly become addicted to smoking, you can choose to drink alcohol and maybe become an alcoholic but if you choose to experiment and sleep with someone of your own gender you will not become gay unless it is part of your nature. Many gays will tell you that their same sex attraction began when they were small children and it has been a part of who they are since a very young age. Young children who eventually identify as gay, are not drawn to alcohol and tobacco the way they are drawn to someone of their own gender. Most people of reason can choose their actions but they cannot choose their nature. Tinka, Smoking and alcohol is a choice, gayness is not. The science and research bears this out but I m not sure you want to hear the facts. You would rather pass judgment on the sinners of the world by defending selected Bible passages to justify your prejudice. Have you ever heard of ethnocentrism? Ethnocentrism is to judge another culture or race of people by using your own cultural and racial experience. This is exactly what you are doing with your beliefs .I call it Theo centrism. You are not interested in any truth or religious understanding other than the one you have found and that is why Tinka you are part of the problem. For all your supposed compassion and prayers for gays with the trite hate the sin but love the sinner , in reality you hate both and how I know this is the passage from the Bible that you chose to close your last comment with: delivering you from the way of evil, from men of perverted speech, who forsake the paths of uprightness to walk in the ways of darkness, who rejoice in doing evil and delight in the perverseness of evil; men whose paths are crooked, and who are devious in their ways. How anyone could read this and not believe that you think that gays are evildoers and perverted is beyond me. It is the people like you who stand by the sidelines in a passive aggressive way to provide prayer for gays while passing judgment and providing the impetus for bigots and hate mongers to mete out their twisted justice on young kids like Matthew Shepard. Is that really the Christian way? Even though I haven t seen Brokeback Mountain I hope that a lot of people do. Maybe it will help open people s hearts and provide a counterbalance to so called friends of gays like you ..and Tinka, instead of praying for the redemption of gays that they will see your light, why don t you pray that they will find in their nature an eternal love and happiness without shame or fear .or maybe just save your prayers for yourself and here my friend is a Biblical passage for you: Search me, O God and know my heart; try me and know my anxious thoughts; and see if there be any hurtful way in me, and lead me in the everlasting way. Psalm 139:23-24>

Sorry, it is not prejudice. I stated in my first post, I’m here because I don’t agree with Hollywood’s romanticizing homosexuality. I made no bones about it. There is something you just don’t seem to understand. There is a way to disagree with a behavior, while still loving the person. Opposition to homosexuality does not equate to hatred for the individual. As for the Bible verse I quoted, let me restate – it by chance showed up in my morning email devotional AFTER I PRAYED about an understanding and Christian response to this thread. I use caps to emphasize only because there is no font capability on this site. It is not intended as a ‘scream’. It is not as though I searched out particular verses to substantiate my views. You ask if I’m a Christian. Yes indeed. Please re-check my posts for venom, questioning of your intelligence, or statements of hate. It’s not there. I stated before, and will say again, I mulled over my responses to Greling, and prayed about it. I truly had to check my human knee jerk wish to lash back in the same manner. To state ‘It is the people like you who stand by the sidelines in a passive aggressive way to provide prayer for gays while passing judgment and providing the impetus for bigots and hate mongers to mete out their twisted justice on young kids like Matthew Shepard. Is that really the Christian way? Are you really Christian?’ is quite unfair and untruthful. It’s actually a very nasty twist. What motive would you have to spin in such a way to equate me with someone such as the ‘hate preacher’ from Topeka? (can’t recall the name at the moment). It would appear that when it is touted that the world needs tolerance, what you really mean is I need to be not only tolerant of you, but accept your view points. I, however, don’t also deserve the same tolerance for my views and beliefs? I read a few excerpts just now from Chad Thompson’s book, Loving Homosexuals as Jesus Would. Looks like a good read, and one to purchase. My first catch from his writings was what error I made in this posting. Associating the lifestyle with ‘sin’, even though I also heavily clarified, I am a sinner as well. BTW, Chad Thompson is an ex-gay for what it’s worth. Since I’ve clearly ruffled your feathers to the point, and I’ll admit….it was definitely my faux pas to put on the ‘Fundamentalist Armor’ if I truly wanted a listening ear rather than a battle. I have learned something here afterall. I’ll need to brush up on my softshoe approach apparently. I’ll shake off the insults and attacks, and leave with yet another ‘trite’ (see me smirking Jere??) Jesus loves you, and I’m trying. Still praying for all of us, whether you want it or not.>

I have not seen the movie and have absolutely no desire to. Not because it’s about gay men . . . simply because I have learned over the years that any time Hollywood tells me I MUST SEE a movie and that it’s ground-breaking or whatever, it usually means it’s overblown, overwrought and pretentious. Just a knee-jerk reaction, I guess. Never saw Titanic, The English Patient, King Kong or most of the other “must see” movies, and from what I’ve heard from people who did see them, I didn’t miss much. Anyway, the reviews I’ve read and the commercials I’ve seen have done nothing to entice me to see this movie. It’s simply not my type of film. I am not a big fan of angst and sturm und drang – I find it generally irritating unless disposed of quickly. Dragged out over two hours would probably make me want to slit my throat. When I go to the movies, it’s to be entertained and uplifted. If I want to feel sad or depressed, I watch the news. It’s just as effective, and I’m not paying the ridiculous prices they charge at the theaters these days. And I don’t trust Hollywood one little bit to “educate” me about anything, including social issues. My own feeling is that if this movie had been made about a heterosexual couple in the same situation, it would have been a huge critical and box-office bomb.>

Verticia I think your right but it will be interesting to see if Brokeback Mountain does any better than another classic love story (that I also didnt see) that came out during the holidays: Pride and Prejudice.>

I’ll be surprised if it doesn’t. The curiosity factor alone will bring a lot of people out to see it. The hype will also draw others who are afraid to “miss out” on anything. Heaven forbid someone at the office should say, “Did you see [insert name of latest "must see" movie]? Wasn’t it fantastic?” and they would have to say, “Sorry, I didn’t see it.” And both stars are very popular, and I think a large part of their fan base would turn out to see them sit on a stool reading the phone book, so those people will come out. If anything, I would expect there will be certain parts of the country where it won’t do as well as others, but I think the huge amount of business it will most likely get in places like Los Angeles, San Francisco, New York, etc. will more than make up for that. “Pride and Prejudice,” on the other hand, has not been as well promoted or as critically acclaimed. Those who don’t like period pieces won’t have any particular reason to turn out. Even those who like the book (of which I am one, and this is one movie I will see when it hits the second-run theaters in my neighborhood) may feel this is one remake too many. My husband has already let me know this is one movie I’ll have to go to by myself, but then my college-age niece told me over Christmas that she wants to see it, so maybe she and I can go together (assuming I can pry her away from her fiancee for an evening ). But I expect that overall Pride and Prejudice will do modestly well. I think Brokeback Mountain, just based on the strength of the critical acclaim, will do extremely well. Visually it does appear to be beautifully filmed, but the scenery alone is not enough to make me want to see the movie. And the fact that it is by Ang Lee is also a drawback as far as I’m concerned. I got suckered into watching “Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon” and it was dreck. Again, beautiful filmography but just a truly awful movie. In fact, now that I think about it, that may have been the last straw that made me decide that if the critics loved it, I should just stay away. >

Ok, reading all these posts really makes me wonder if we are ever going to get past the whole gay thing. Wasn’t it just 50 so years ago that we had seperate water fountains and bathrooms for whites and blacks? Wasn’t it considered an abdomination for a black and a white to marry? Where does everyone get that God hates gay people? Did Jesus ever mention it, I don’t recall that being addressed. The Bible was written by men, not by God. I’m an atheist so to me, it’s only words. People, if anything can be gleaned from the bible, remember this: Love one another as I have loved you. Please, life is too short for all this hate and misunderstanding. Angela>

Verticia- Your a tough critic but I can appreciate where your coming from. I saw Crouching Tiger and I loved it. I understand it’s not everyone’s cup of tea especially with the subtitles and despite the critical acclaim I don’t think it made a profit in the U.S. I will have to admit I would have to be held at gunpoint (and almost was) to go see Pride and Prejudice. All the women folk in my family went to see it and they loved it. I will probably give it a try once it comes out on DVD. I must admit I enjoy many foreign and independent flicks but I agree that a lot of what is put out these days from overhyped hollywood is often predictable and boring. I don’t think that is the case (I could be wrong) with BrokeBack Mountain. It’s a new pespective on things and it might be interesting…but I must admit that I doubt that I will see it at the theaters. Maybe I’ll wait for this DVD also.>

Jere, I don’t think it’s that I’m a tough critic. It’s just that what I hated about CTHD is also what kept me from having any desire to see either Titanic or Brokeback Mountain. It’s that I reject the basic premise of these movies – Hollywood’s depiction of “true love.” I know there are many, maybe even most, who will disagree with me, but true love is not, IMHO, two people meeting for a couple of days on a boat. It’s not secretly pining away for someone you don’t really know. And it’s not meeting someone twice a year in a fantasy setting that is not the real world. I think it is exactly this kind of ridiculous romanticizing that is at least in part responsible for the high divorce rates. People watch this garbage, think it’s romantic and realistic (I find it neither), and when their love hits real life, they give up and walk away because it doesn’t measure up to the fantasy Hollywood tells them it should be. Real love, IMHO, is willingly getting up at 3 a.m. to change the sheets or clean up the rug or the bathroom floor because your mate has the flu and threw up all over everything. Real love is the first 100 times your lover screams for you to kill a spider and you think it’s cute, and the next 1000 times you roll your eyes, heave a sigh, snap “it’s just a stupid spider,” but you kill it anyway, and then you hit the point where you see the spider first, kill the little bugger, and dispose of the body before your lover ever sees it because, although you think it’s stupid, you know your lover is afraid of spiders, and you accept that and don’t want to see them unnecessarily upset. Real love is weathering all the difficulties of day-to-day living. It’s finding out that your man leaves wet towels and dirty underwear on the bedroom floor, which drives you crazy, but you deal with it because he’s a good, kind man and a great father and you still love him. It’s having to remove your woman’s soaking pantyhose from the bathroom sink so you can shave, and no matter how many times you ask her not to leave them there, she does it anyway, and you deal with it because she’s a good, kind woman who backed you up 100% when you wanted to quit that dead-end job, even though you didn’t have another job to go to and you still love her. It’s continuing to love someone despite all the petty annoyances and daily irritations and the differences of opinion over who to vote for for President. It’s when you say “for better or worse” and through the test of time, you really do take each other “for better or worse,” through good times and bad times. And from everything I’ve read, that is not what is being portrayed in this movie. And it wasn’t what those two kids on a doomed ship had. And it wasn’t what that woman in CTHD had either. It’s romanticized, fictionalized, and idealized. I know people have these kinds of feelings in real life, but I’ve also known people who’ve lived through it, so I know how destructive and pointless it is. They waste their lives and deny themselves any real chance for happiness by fixating on a person they can’t have or who isn’t good for them and pass up opportunities they might have had to be happy because of it. And I don’t buy the theory that there is only “one true love” for each person or that only one person can be your “soul mate.” I think loving someone is as much a function of choice as it is of biology and that we are capable of finding real love with a number of different people, if we’re willing to open ourselves up to the possibilities. Hollywood just loves this garbage, but I hate it. And, in the case of Brokeback Mountain, my impression from reviews is that we have basically two people who really aren’t very admirable with Hollywood holding them up to us as people we should feel sorry for and sympathize with. From what I’ve read about this movie, we have two men who are gay at a time when it is difficult to be gay. Difficult, but not impossible. Some gays made the choice to be true to their natures, even though they had to hide it well from public knowledge. Some made the choice not to try to flout society. I’m not condeming either choice. But, as it appears from the reviews, these men made the choice not to flout society but then lacked the integrity to remain true to their natures by living solitary lives. No one forced them to get married – lots of men never marry. But they chose to live a lie by marrying women, knowing they could not really love these women and apparently having no intention of being faithful to them. Then they meet and fall in love, but they still lack the guts to flout society and be together but they also lack the strength to truly go their separate ways so they can attempt to find happiness elsewhere. These guys can’t be faithful to their wives, and from some accounts of the movie, they can’t (or won’t) be faithful to each other either, since at least one account I read indicated that one or both has another male partner or partners. That unfortunately makes them real people, but it doesn’t make them tragic heroes. But from everything I’ve read, it seems to me that Hollywood expects us to view them that way, and we’re supposed to buy into the fallacy of this “timeless love” that nothing can break. But, going back to the beginning of this overly long explanation, I reject the notion that what they have is really love. Just like I reject that what the leads in Titanic and Crouching Tiger had was real love. Gay or straight – it’s illusion, fantasy, obsession . . . but it’s not real love . . . at least not as I understand it. So, that’s why I hated CTHD. And that’s why I have no desire to see Titanic or BBM. And if that makes me a tough critic, then so be it. >

Verticia- I’m on my lunch break right now and I don’t have time to respond but I have got to say “Wow”! That was quite a response. I’m not sure I agree with everything you said but what you did say was so beautifully expressed and probably the best thing I’ve read in awhile. Allow me some time to collect my thoughts because you really got me thinking. By the way, what is IMHO? (is that an instant message abreviation?) Is that: “In My Household?” I refuse to learn an abbreviated language to communicate (part stubborness, part ignorance)but I’ll make an exception for you because I want to make sure I understand what you said.>

Hi Jere, I’m glad you found something of interest in that long-winded, rambling reply. I got kind of carried away there. I’ll be interested to hear your thoughts when you’re ready to share them. IMHO is internet shorthand for In My Humble Opinion. I don’t use a lot of abbreviations either, but there are a few that I like because they make it easier to convey your thoughts, and I’m too lazy to type out the whole thing. Just as lol (laughing out loud) helps to convey that something should not be taken too seriously or that the comment was made tongue-in-cheek, IMHO is an easy way to make it clear that you are merely expressing your own opinion and that the reader’s mileage may vary. >

I feel, and this admittedly without seeing the movie first, that it is a tragedy that gay people marry members of the opposite sex and the pain that is caused by the sense of betrayal compounded by the undue judgement of society not only on that gay person but then also on the spouse and children is so very very painful. I had a neighbor that was gay and married to a woman and the shame and confusion that this family endured, well, it was so very sad. Only God could bring them the light of day to regain confidence and peace after the reckoning of what had been the deep dark secret uncovered when the man was pressed to admit his infidelity with another man… And I do continue to care for every member of that family, though I have since moved far away.>

Luke 6:37 Luke 6:41 Christian or Pharisee–your choice.>

I have yet to see Brokeback Mountain,but want to or should I say need to see it. I am a lesbian woman involved with a Bi sexual woman.We are in love but she can’t give up men for me or for the sake of “our love” I believe she is still hoping for a marriage with a man and children someday,and although she I have her heart I cannot have herfully and that is a cross I have come to bear.Unfortunally I cannot give her certain things a man can like biological children.She once had said to me”If you were a man this would be some much easier”. My belief is the soul is immortal and love is eternal so that is why I believe that you fall in love sometimes with a person not with what sex they are but just the fact that you you are enamored with that person for all that they are.I myself prefer women because I feel that I get along with women better on all levels (not just sexually) but there is a unspoken understanding and connection that I can never have with a man(never had with any man). I wish more people would understand that I choose not to be who I am,why would I choose to live this life when so many are against my lifestyle? A point to ponder.>

open your mind, cast off your prejudice, however you may choose to disguise it – in 2006, it is NOT socially acceptible to openly express hate, bias, or irrational overly judgmental bunk. Brokeback parallels someone from Riverton, WY that I personally knew quite well – a deeply closeted predominantly gay man, shy and unassuming. He was finally “done in” and my friend from Ill. was also killed. Had either of the two been hetero, str8 breeders, neither would be dead today of the truly hateful way in which they were butchered by a monster who probably ALSO considered himself a religious man.>

40 some-odd posts filled with passionate people trying to reason with fundamentalist christians. What a waste of time.>