Top 10 Mormons in Entertainment

You may want to check out www.famousmormons.net

It seems to me we, as a society, preoccupy ourselves with trivia concerning the lives of celebrities. While ie may satisfy ones curiosity as to whether a famous peronality is a mormon, catholic, scientologist etc. it is of little significance, in my opinion, in the gereater picture. We should be asking are they of good character and do they influence our children and grandchildren especially positively.

i have always loved the Osmonds as entertainers, however,mormonism is not the One,True religion. Christianity is. i hope one day they will see the error of their ways and come to Christ.they follow a false religion that the bible warns us against, and their Only hope to reach heaven is by being saved by Jesus Christ. I don't condem them for following mormonism, but i do pray for them and of course, i would never judge them. i believe that they are wrong and hope they will see the Light before it is too late.its Not ok to just passively accept someone elses beliefs when you believe that they will end up in hell one day if they dont change their beliefs.

That is why this gets so confusing. No one is going to Hell as Bonnie stated if they Believe in, God, Jesus birth, death & resurection. That is a Christian as I alway's believed. Catholic, Morman, Baptist etc. Now if you believe in Buddha or Scientology that is not Christ/Christian based but that is their way to worship and those are usually not Bad or Evil acting people. They are kind and Mindful of others and do have a right to believe that way. It's only when you have people who believe in and worship Evil and Darkness that you can say are wrong thinking, still their choice, but gee, who would pick Bad over Goodness.Negativity is Never the right choice as it causes harm.All I know is as a Christian, Follower of Christ, only label I'll accept, I need to concentrate on my own actions and I certainly have no True Knowledge of who will go to heaven or Hell.Only the Lord knows for certain. p.s I too have Alway's adored the Osmonds since I was 10 years old.They are Wonderful Christian Human Beings and I have watched till now,on Oprah last Friday and I am 48 years old!Peace & Light in Christ To All, Phyllis

to all who commented on what i said, i am NOT judging ANYone. i live peacefully knowing that what the BIBLE teaches is the right way. i have never condemned anyone for their beliefs and i treat all with the utmost respect.i feel the bible teaches the true religion and i respect others beliefs, i witness to them if possible with love and compassion. i do claim my religion is the one true one in church but the bible tells us to go out and witness to others so none will perish. you seem to have gotten real upset about what i said, maybe you need to take a look at your beliefs and see how you really feel. it DOES matter Who you believe in, God is the One who helps you get thru the hard times and no one does it better. i know , my opinion again. it does and will matter in the end.i know people feel that they are doing the right thing. i pray for the lost and hope ALL will come to Jesus Christ. this world has gotten too complacent about "whatever you want to do or feel is ok, as long as you want to do such and such, but we All need to love one another and look to the bible for guidance. i am truly sorry for offending you or any one else as i never meant to do any harm. just wanted to state my feelings on this. may God bless you and yours and i hope you have a wonderful , blessed day, love in Christ, bonnie

Good call on Glenn Beck. I think he's the most entertaining of the whole bunch.

Recognized by the Society of Singers as the true EMPRESS OF SOUL, Gladys Knight is greeted and hailed as EMPRESS OF SOUL on tour of South Africa.

They still are members of the Latter-day Saint church unless they literally resign or are excommicated to my knowledge.

And prissy, what type of anti-matireals have you been reading? I (a member of the LDS church) know that I am a Christian since I know Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins. :) Me = Mormon = Christian.

Oh wow. Any excuse for an Anti to put a preachy message out. On a celeb site? That'll do it Prissy. You've convinced me. I've seen the light. Oh yes, I'm going to change my ways and I'm going to do it RIGHT NOW because of your enlightened post. You've completely convinced me of the error of my ways.

Not.

If you were going to buy a Ford automobile you would go to a Ford dealership right? not to a Volvo dealership. So all the negetives you are hearing about members of the Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints I would suggest that you get your information from a source of the Church then you can respond as such. You might be susprised to find out what real Christianity really is, I can only say I did.....

Why do members of the LDS Church refuse to investigate the allegations against their Church? Most religious welcome this. LDS are told to ignore any negatives. If they were so sure it was true, why not prove it to the whole world. How about having a discussion with an open mind. I contend that mormon families are not as happy as they are portrayed. Utah has the highest rate of prescribed anti depresants in the US. They are are one of the highest in bankrupcy.
I would welcome a discussion, in a respect manner, to learn more about your beleifs. Whould you be willing to really learn about mine.

To FormerLDS:
I am so sorry you felt captivated by our religion. As one who has the responsibilty to go out and talk with members of our religion who we haven't seen around in awhile I can tell you that we don't want to bother and upset you any more than you want to be bothered. I know I tell the people I run across that if they don't want anymore visitors that they need to have their name removed from the records of the church.(This requires a formal letter and a formal paper filled out that you get from your bishop) As long as your name is on the records you will get a visit at one time or another. I totally respect people's decisions and wishes concerning their religion. I never want to be a bother but people need to understand that there is paper work to be done. Because being a member of the church is not like belonging to a gym where when you decide you're done with it you can just not go back and no one will bother you ever again.

Idol Chatter is the right name for your anti-LDS subscribers.

Yes, it is not Bible based. It is a twisted version of Chrisitanity, but not actually Christian. Those that say the Book of Morman does not conflict with the Bible, haven't read the Bible. It conflicts in many ways. ONe significant way is that God ( or Heavenly Father) was never a man of flesh. God exsists outside of time and there was never created, He is the creator.

oh and " a Morman Feminist" huh???? I didn't know such a thing exsisted. The whole religion is demeaning to women.

Joseph Smith said one day his name would be known for good and evil all over the world. He said that when he was 15 years old. Ill let the readers figure out for themselves if he was right.

Who gets to determine whether or not someone or doctrine is "Christian"?

I find it pretty funny when someone says a doctrine doesn't comport with the Bible. Give me a break. The Bible contradicts itself in numerous places, so you can find a passage to contradict almost any religious tenant in most major religions. And while we're on the Bible, didn't the temple or tabernacle of Moses and the children of Israel have a holy of holies and areas that only the Levites and prophet could enter? Hmm....sounds racist and exclusionary to me. But I guess the Mormons aren't "Christians" because someone arbitrarily decided such.

I think the surest way to eliminate one from being a Christian is to see him or her judge others unworthy of being a Christian.

Hi Chris,
I will try to address your questions in a thoughtful manner.
Yes, I have been to Sacrament, several times. It was very boring and not very spiritual each time I was there. ( Not sure why you asked that one) Have you been to a Bible believing church? I've noticed that most LDS don't 'visit' other people's churches. ( probably for reasons I will discuss below) I invite them to come and they just give me a strange look.
A Christian is someone that has put thier faith in the Jesus Christ of the Bible. That means Jesus that is God and was with God in the beginning. ( John 1:1) Not a Jesus that was created...and a Spirit Brother of Satan. The Jesus of Morman theology is a different Jesus. Just because an organization has 'Jesus' in it's name doesn't mean it is true. ( Take a look at 'The Reformed Church of God's website, I'm not a member nor a proponent of that church, it is just an example of a chuch with 'God' in it's name.)

Who defines what a Christian is? Christians do. It's been defined long before Joseph Smith came along.
The 'debate continues' because your church leaders claim the mantel of Christianity. Chrisitians don't like that at all. ( Just like LDS don't like it that Warren Jeff's people call themselves F-LDS.)

OK...Chris, your third question. " Have you ever heard of a mormon calling any other religion non christian why are we continually attacked?" ...Chris, do you know your church history? Jospeh Smith was the first Morman and HE called all the other churches ' an ABOMINATION'...and said that they were apostate. ( Look up those two words, abomination and apostate')
Now he claimed that 'Heavenly Father' said this in the first vision. This is one reason ( of many) that I think he is a false prophet. God would never say that anyone that is earnestly seeking Him is an 'abomination' ( again, look up that definition)
[quick side note: God never appears in human form, always as a flame , or light, or burning bush]
...and Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to be with us until He comes back. If the HS was on Earth then a total apostacy is not only unlikely, but impossible.

Now, I hope that Nate is still reading because yes the Temple in Jerusalem had a 'Holy of Holies' that only high preists could enter. Please understand that this was under the old covenant of Jewish Law. One of the reasons that Jesus CAME was to bring a 'new covenenant'.
The new 'pressence of God' is in each one of us, thru the Holy Spirit. Which is another reason why we do not need a 'restored Preisthood'. Jesus Himself is the only 'high priest' that we need. We come into the pressence of God thru Christ.

Ask yourself....if Jesus came....and was who He said He was... Then His church would not have left the Earth...thus not needing to be restored. If you choose to believe that His church left the Earth after the last apostle died in about 90AD...then you have to believe that He wasn't powerful enough to do what He came to do.
The truth is that He was more than powerful enough to establish His church here on earth, with it a new covenant, and that the HS came and is still here....continuously, since He came in Acts.....and that means that the gospel and church did not need to be restored...so we have a false prohet in Jospeh Smith.

I am a practicing mormon, and I hate the fact that we get attacked, just because people do not even know what we belive in. For those of you who just dont understand, here are our 13 Articles of Faith.

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul-We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things.

This is just a brief overview of the basis of our Church. Also, I think everyone has the right to put in thier opinion. However, im sure that all of you that have said something bad about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, have never read the Book of Mormon, much less even been to one of our sunday services. Its CLOSED MINDED people who say bad things about and critisize other poeple, when they have no barely any knowledge about what thier putting down. Also, I encourage everyone to read the Book of Mormon. Even if you dislike mormons. What could, roughly, 400 pages hurt? At least it would give you a better understanding of what you dislike.

jordon ahmad

The lds church does not beleive in the same Jesus as other religions. gordon b. hinkley has admitted that fact.
and you should not think that you beleive in the same God as other relegions. you church teaches that God was a sinner like you and me in another world. you church teaches that you could be a god. any other church teaches that God has been God through out all eternity and allways has been God. God is never changing from all eternity.

mans first sin was eating the forbiden fruit to gain the knowledge of God and look what he did to man kind for us wanting the knowledge of God. he gave woman pain in childbirth made men work in the fields for our food and made us taste death what is he going to do to a man who thinks he can become a god.

mark read matthew 22:23 Jesus says there is no marriage in heaven for you do not know the scriptures. it is also in mark. but as for your question on being sealed it doesnt matter really becouse it says in the bible we will not be given in marriage in heaven you will be like the angles

hawks4

I never said that every christian religion belives in the same God. I was just trying to point out that our Church is, in fact, a Chirstian religion. And, we also belive that Jesus is not God. We are not a Trinity Church. God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are 3 seperate beings.

Just think of how many languages the Bible has gone through. How many times it has been revised. It still has the same message God intended it to have and I belive every word of it to be true, just not the WHOLE truth.

Also, hawks4, may I ask, what religion are you apart of?

are you still here jordon

does anyone else have anything to add?

Hi Hawks,
I was asking my afterlife marriage question with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek. I know that there is no marriage in the afterlife and that we will be like angles.
WOW, I would love to see that old version of the Book of Morman. That would be amazing!!!

ya my old book of mormon i bought it 3 or 4 months ago on ebay for 15 dollars. i bought it to prove to my soon to be ex wife that the book of mormon has over 3500 changes in it.

The Book of Abraham Papyri and Joseph Smith

There are many proofs that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, but Mormons typically, will not accept them. From the biblical evidence that contradicts Mormon theology, to the contradictions within its own history and doctrine, proofs abound. But Mormons, completely dedicated to their religion and their testimony, cannot and will not see the evidence. They rely not on biblical evidence, not on historical evidence, but rather trust a 'testimony' that Mormonism is the restored church and Joseph Smith its true prophet.
One of the tests of whether or not a belief is grounded in reality is whether or not it can be proven to be true or false. If someone says, "I don't care what evidence you show me, I will always believe," then that person's faith is not rooted in reality. And since Christianity is a religion of history, crucifixion, resurrection, an empty tomb, etc., it is a religion rooted in reality. If it could be proven beyond doubt that Jesus did not rise from the dead, then Christianity is a false religion. Likewise, if it could be proven that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, then Mormonism is a false religion. It just so happens that there is such a proof.

The Book of Abraham

Joseph Smith claimed that an angel appeared to him and revealed the location of some golden plates on which was written the account of the ancient people of the Americas. Joseph Smith later translated those plates into what is now known as the Book of Mormon. This translation was done by the power of God through special means. Joseph Smith, being the Lord's chosen instrument, became the prophet of the Mormon church, held the office of Seer. A Seer, according to the Book of Mormon in Mosiah 8:13, can translate records that are untranslatable. Hence, Joseph Smith was able to translate the golden plates into the Book of Mormon. But his Seer abilities did not stop there.
In July of 1835, an Irishman named Michael Chandler brought an exhibit of four Egyptian mummies and papyri to Kirtland Ohio, then the home of the Mormons. The papyri contained Egyptian hieroglyphics. In 1835 hieroglyphics were unreadable.
As Prophet and Seer of the Church, Joseph Smith was given permission to look at the papyri scrolls in the exhibit and to everyone's shock, revealed that "one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham, another the writings of Joseph of Egypt" (History of the Church, Vol. 2: 236. July 1835). The Church bought the exhibit for $2400. Joseph finished the translation of the Book of Abraham some time later, but the book of Joseph was never translated. The papyri were lost soon afterwards and thought to have been destroyed in a fire in Chicago in 1871. There was, therefore, no way to validate Joseph's translation. If the papyri were re-discovered and translated it would either prove or disprove the abilities of Joseph as a prophet of God. After all, he was supposed to be a prophet and have the abilities of a Seer as the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham supposedly proved.
In October of 1880 The Pearl of Great Price, a collection of writings, which contained the book of Abraham, was recognized as scripture by the Mormon Church.

The Papyri are found

To every one’s surprise, in 1966 the papyri were rediscovered in one of the vault rooms of the New York’s metropolitan Museum of Art. The Deseret News of Salt Lake City on Nov. 27, 1967 acknowledged the rediscovery of the papyri. On the back of the papyri were "drawings of a temple and maps of the Kirtland, Ohio area."1 There could be no doubt that this was the original document from which Joseph Smith translated the book of Abraham.
With the papyri rediscovered and Egyptian hieroglyphics decipherable since the late 1800's, it would then be an easy task of translating the papyri and proving once and for all that Joseph Smith was a prophet with the gift of "Seer" as he and the Mormon church have claimed. This would then prove the truth of the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham and would vindicate Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God.

What do the Experts say?

Joseph Smith copied three drawings from the Egyptian scrolls, labeled them Facsimile No. 1, No. 2, and No. 3, and incorporated them into the Book of Abraham with explanations of what they were. Egyptologists have viewed the drawings and found Joseph Smith's interpretation of them to be wrong. But, the Mormons, in defense of the sacred book, maintained that the Facsimiles alone were not sufficient to prove that Joseph Smith was erring in his translating abilities. With the rediscovery of the papyri, not only were there the same drawings in the scrolls, but so was the text from which Joseph Smith made his translation. It was now possible to absolutely determine the accuracy of Smith's translating abilities.

Facsimile No. 1

Joseph Smith said that Facsimile No. 1 was of a bird as the "Angel of the Lord" with "Abraham fastened upon an altar," "being offered up as a sacrifice by a false priest. The pots under the altar were various gods "Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, Korash, Pharaoh," etc.
In reality, this is "an embalming scene showing the deceased lying on a lion-couch."2
In the original papyri, this drawing is attached to hieroglyphics (See figure A) from which Joseph derived the beginning of the book of Abraham which begins with the words, "In the Land of the Chaldeans, at the residence of my father, I, Abraham, saw that it was needful for me to obtain another place of residence"(1:1). In reality, the hieroglyphics translate as, "Osiris shall be conveyed into the Great Pool of Khons -- and likewise Osiris Hor, justified, born to Tikhebyt, justified -- after his arms have been placed on his heart and the Breathing permit (which [Isis] made and has writing on its inside and outside) has been wrapped in royal linen and placed under his left arm near his heart; the rest of the mummy-bandages should be wrapped over it. The man for whom this book was copied will breath forever and ever as the bas of the gods do."3
"It is the opening portion of an Egyptian Shait en Sensen, or Book of Breathings . . . a late funerary text that grew out of the earlier and more complex Book of the Dead." "This particular scroll was prepared (as determined by handwriting, spelling, content, etc.) sometime during the late Ptolemaic or early Roman period (circa 50 B.C. to A.D. 50)."4

Figure A

Figure A is a professional reconstruction of the original (Figure B). Note the hieroglyphics on the right side from which Joseph Smith began his translation of the Book of Abraham.
In actuality, it "depicts the mythical embalming and resurrection of Osiris, Egyptian god of the underworld. Osiris was slain by his jealous brother Set, who cut up his body into 16 pieces and scattered them....The jackal-headed god Anubis is shown embalming the body of Osiris on the traditional lion-headed couch so that he might come back to life..."5

Figure B

Figure B (to the right) shows a reprint of the actual papyrus used by Joseph Smith
Note the areas where the Papyrus has been lost. It is in these that Joseph Smith "finished" the drawing resulting in Facsimile No. 1. His restoration, according to Egyptologists, reveals a complete lack of understanding of Egyptian practice and theology.

Facsimile No. 2

As is explained by Joseph Smith and included in the Pearl of Great Price, the second drawing contains different scenes which Joseph Smith interpreted. They vary: "Kolob, signifying the first creation, nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God." "Stands next to Kolob, called by the Egyptians Oliblish, which is the next grand governing creation near to the celestial or the place where God resides." "God, sitting upon his throne, clothed with power and authority." "...this is one of the governing planets also, and is said by the Egyptians to be the Sun, and to borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, which is the grand Key..."
But again scholarship disagrees with Joseph’s rendition. "It is actually a rather common funerary amulet termed a hypocephalus, so-called because it was placed under (hypo) a mummy’s head (cephalus). Its purpose was to magically keep the deceased warm and to protect the body from desecration by grave robbers."6

Facsimile No. 3

According to Smith, this drawing shows "Abraham sitting upon Pharaoh’s throne, by the politeness of the king, with a crown upon his head, representing the Priesthood...King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head...Signifies Abraham in Egypt...Olimlah, a slave belonging to the prince..."
But this is not what the Egyptologists say is the meaning of the Facsimile No. 3 is. Instead, it shows, "the deceased being led before Osiris, god of the dead, and behind the enthroned Osiris stands his wife Isis."7

Conclusion

It should be quite obvious that present scholarship has revealed that Joseph Smith did not translate the Book of Abraham by the power of God as he had claimed. It follows that if he did not translate the Book of Abraham by the power of God, then it would be very easy to conclude that he did not translate the Book of Mormon by the power of God either.
When Joseph first gave his translation, hieroglyphics were undecipherable. Today they are. He was safe in saying anything he wanted to and there would be no way of proving him wrong. But with the resurfacing of the same papyri he used to do his Book of Abraham translation, and the fact that he did not in any way do it correctly, should be proof enough that Joseph Smith lied about his abilities from God. He has been shown to be a false prophet.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Thank you Mark i will attempt to do the same and sorry about my absence ive been busy.
Yes i have been to other churches as i was a member of a baptist church for the first 17 years of my life we do believe in the Jesus of the bible and as for the scripture you have given me i left mne at my house and am at my dorm so i cant comment on it i am not that well versed in scripture. As for Jesus being created i am not totally sure as i am new to the religion but i do believe that god created all and jesus would be included someone can correct me if i am wrong. As for being the spirit brother of satan at one time satan hisself was an angel so is it that hard to believe?
What is your definition of a christian mine is a person who believes in salvation through Jesus Christ and by that yes we are christian.
Yes i know my church history and yes it was said that the churches at the time were apostate but they were still christian they just didnt have th whole truth until now i have always disagreed with major parts of the church i beloged to.
As for why God chose to appear in person i have no answer to that except that he chose to.
I do not believe that the church totally left the earth i just believe that it was broken into many parts all containing part of the true church is that impossible?

On a side note i would like to again thank you for actually having a discussion not all out attacking as many do on this and other web sites i look forward to this discussion continuing in a civilized manner.

Mark- You make alot of good points. Keep it up.

this is why i think the lds religion came to be. i think joseph smith did see a angle but the devil can come in the form of an angle. the devil has a foot hold on the true sinners people who do not want to be saved he needed to get something to get the God fearing people of the world. what a better way to get God fearing people of the world you tell them about God and how the world has turned from him and you need to lead them back. do a few chances to the doctrine ( men becoming gods) ect. I think if the lds members would truly seek the truth it is so easily found with joseph smiths false prophesys changes to the lds doctrine and works over faith and grace. the bible says test all things so let them be tested

chris first off hello

I have studied joseph smiths history for 2 years or so now I know it pretty good. I know that with in one day of joining the masons he reached the highest level with them, I know he had multiple wives before he had a vision to reinstate plural wives i know he taught against poligomy after he had his vision in d&c132. I know he has had many false prophesys If you look at the mormon temples you will see the mason resemblences with the symbols built in to it.

if you read the teachings of the prophet joseph smith you will find out what the churches founding prophet really taught.
for instance on page 312 Gods have an ansestory over the angles who are ministering servants. In the reserrection some are raised to be angles oters are raised to become Gods.

now what this tells me is that joseph smith is saying some will become Gods. so yes mormons beleive you will become gods.

on page 345 I will go back to the beginning before the world was. to show what kind of being God is. God hiimself was once as we are now and is an exhalted man. and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. that is the great secret.

and it goes on for a bit about that then
We have imagined and supposed that god was god from all eternity I will refute that idea and take away the vail so you may see.

then on page 347 it talks about god being exalted even higher then where he is at now and jesus taking his place as God.

now i thought that god was never changing if he is not to his full exhaltation then he is going to change when he reaches it. and jesus is going to take gods spot when he reaches his full exhaltation I dont want to sound rude or anything but really come on

You bring up some very good questions that i will answere but unfortunatly i am very pressed with time and must focus on only my finals this week i assure you i will answer but this week i must limit my time here to very short posts if any i apolagize but school is more importat than this debate at the moment i look forwarf to continuing this debate at a later time but i may be busy and away from my computer till after the first of the year i hope everyone can understand.

And in case i am Merry Christmas to everyone enjoy your holidays

Jesus was 'with God ' in the beginning' there fore not created. It is simple guys.
The Jesus you beleive to be your savior is NOT the Jesus of the Bible.
Your Prophet has said as much.
It's the "Tale of Two Jesus's"

The 'Dark force' that over came Smith...that makes me think that it was a demon of some kind. The dark force never left him. It might have let him think he was free...but He could have had it for the rest of his life. The dark force was what most likely made him see the vision(s).
(Remember, God never appears in human form in the O.T.
the image of a gray bearded man sitting on a throne is just not real, it probably came from Chaucer and Milton and other authors.)

A new point for me is the French word at the end of Jacob.
If the translation process was 'letter by letter' with the 'magic rock' then we have to explain how an ancient Hebrew knew French... Or why would God choose to have a french word there.
It seems more likely that this was another attempt by Smith to be viewed as an intellectual.

I've read Lindsay's defence of this and he fails. The KJ Bible was not translated 'letter by letter', the KJV was published in 1611. King James 1 of England had 54 scholars use the Bishops Bible and Tyndale's Bible as well as available Greek and Hebrew manuscripts... and remember that France was a 'Christian nation' long before Christianity came to England.

16th to 17th Century

At the beginning of the 16th century, Neuchâtel became an important international centre for religious Reformation texts in French. It was in Neuchâtel that the Bible was first translated into French and printed.

To the writer who stated that mormons are above average in intelligence, where did that statistic come from? I hope that is true because it tells me that LDS will be open to investigating the inconsistencies of church teachings. If you will not do this for yourself than at least do it for your children. Your eternal destiny depends on being correct. Why not be objective. The BOM has been changed hundreds of times. Significantly. How could it be the most correct book on earth? The solidarity in the Church makes everyone feel so welcome and elite because they know the truth. It's hard to leave that. But please investigate. You are placing your destiny on the word or one person. There is no historical evidence. The Bible has hundred of years of evidence. Artifacts and actual scrolls. You owe it to yourself to learn the truth. I'm sure I would be a TBM if I had been raised in your environment. That is all you've learned and other views were not accepted.

COLOSSIANS 1:15-18 he is the image of the invisable GOD. the first born over all creation. for by him all things were created. things in HEAVEN and on earth. visible and invisable wether thrones or powers or rulers or athorities, all things were created by him and for him. he is before all things and in him all things hold together. and he is the head of the body the church he is the BEGINNING and the firstborn from amoung the dead. so that in everything he might have supremacy.

this says all things were created by him this should include the devil a fallen angle.

Genisis 1:26-27 then God said let US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMMAGE IN OUR LIKENESS and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air over the livestock over the earth. and over all the creatures that move along the ground. 27 So GOD created man in his own imagein the image of god he created him male and female he created them.

this at first says us meaning God and Jesus then 27 just God. so yes Jesus was with God in the beginning.

i dont think it necissarly means become a god but become as god dont you believe that you will be perfect in heaven? Then you will be as or like god because god is perfect. And the lds share the belief that Jeusus was with God in the beginning for in the Book of Abraham i believe it says that the Gods created the earth and humans in their image (Gods and their meaning God and Jesus)

I am enjoying this but i may be absent from here for a while so happy holidays everyone.

hello chris
yes i do beleive you will be perfect in heaven but i dont think you will be 100 percent God like or else you could make the rules.

and the comment that you will be God like and not gods read the teachings of the prophet joseph smith page 312in the reserection some will be raised as angles and some as Gods.

notice the capital G in God not lower case. so the first prophet of the lds church taught it it is also in your D&C section 132 so yes the lds think they can be Gods and that God was once a man this comes straight from joseph smiths mouth as we are God once was.

the lds beleive that jesus was with God. I beleive Jesus is God in the beggining was the word (Jesus) and the word was with God and the WORD(JESUS) WAS GOD.

READ DEUTERONOMY 4:35 4:39
2 SAMUEL 7:22
Isaiah 44:6 44:8 46:9 43:10
mark 12:32
john 1:18
they all talk about one God Jesus says he knows of no other so either he is not all knowing becouse he knows not of the Gods of all the other universes or he is lying becouse he knows of the other Gods and is not saying that he knows about them. so if Jesus is lying he is not a God I want to follow or if he is not all knowing the same would apply.

mark
i know that thry can go round and round with scripture but it has been my expereince that with josephs smiths false prophesies they also can go round and round.

like the one in the d&c of david patten going on a mission i have heard all the excuses from he lost faith it is in another world jesus knew all the paths that david patten had in his life but did not know wich one he was going to take one lead to his death one lead to his fufilling the prophesy.

in the teachings of the prophet joseph smith page302 where joseph smith said the us government shall publiclly appologise for the wrong doing against the mormons or else in this generation the us government shall be utterly overthrown and unreconisable

i have been told that the end of the world has not come so it still can be a true prophesy so on and so on they can and will make excuses for there prophets and there propheseys.

thoes that read this and say that i am closed minded just know this i married a mormon woman 7 years ago studied the lds religion to see if i wanted to join it and found out all that is wrong with it so in doing so i have visitation of our 3 children a broken home and am pretty misriable at the moment would i trade it to join the lds faith NO WAY i looked in to it to join it and instead i lost my wife and children to it so please know that i am open minded and if riding a bike going door to door as a missionary would get me into heaven then i would sell my truck and buy a bike, but if loosing my marriage and full custody of my children will get me there then here we go

God bless

Here is a link to the documentary on the Book of Abraham. It is really well done and makes you think on both sides of the issue.

http://www.bookofabraham.info/

You can click on a link there to watch it...

LDS wake up. what is wrong with you? why to you think you are superior? look at what Hawk suggests. Simon- YOu are wrong. Your cult is killing killing you. it is taking time from your family. You will not get to your kingdom. Yor children will not be sealed. you will noit get this time back. Why can you look at other topics objectively? You refuse to look at the evidence against the lies of joesph.

jen

Hawks 4- this is jen. Yes i was upset. i was amazed that simon said that LDS were superior/

hello mark i looked at tjat book of abraham site it is pretty good there is a site upfc org that has alot of good info on it and the guy who heads up the ministry is a awesome man you should check it out

Does anyone know who wrote the origianl 'Celebrity List'?

Oops forgot to put my name im finally back from vacation

Oops sorry i was in a hurry what i meant was this debate is going nowhere as it is you will not convince me im wrong and i wont convice you that you are wrong but i would like the discussion to continue so if there are any questions about lds beliefs that you have i will do my best to answer and i will ask questions about your beliefs. My first question is what happens to people who have never heard of jesus christ are they condemmed because they dont have faith in him? Would god create someone in a position like that?

I love being LDS. You do not know me or my husband or children. church teaches values and family in eternity. Mormons love Joseph Smith and his teachings You should not judge me or my family we are good.

Tami-It's fantastic that you love your family. So do I love mine. What does that have to do with being LDS. Why do you claim persecution.

WOW, I go away for a while and I miss a lot.
Hi Terryann, The Bible and the BoM do conflict on many points. ( and the D&C and the Bible are even more at odds) I could list all the points but that has been hashed over already....there is one simple one. John 1:1 states that in the beginning God and Jesus were
(and are) one and the same person.

Hi Chris,
Yes, if someone does not know Jesus when they die then they, according to the Bible, are in eternal separation from God. remeber God created the world where we could be with Him, the Fall is what created the separation.

I am always interested in the conversations about the Bible, the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants. I was born into a Catholic family and became a Latter Day Saint in my twenties. I have great respect for persons of faith because they believe in something higher than themselves. Yet, to argue that one book is more correct than another has always seemed a bit odd to me. History tells us that the Bible has been tailored to fit the needs of certain rulers throughout the ages. Therefore, which translation is 'right'? Or are any of them? Is the Hebrew translation more accurate than the English? Are there various ways to translate the original Aramaeic? I believe that anyone who does considerable research can and will find that there are significant discrepencies in the various translations. As for the books which are scripture for the Mormon Church, weren't they brought forth when religion was a hotbed of questioning throughout the American landscape? Did they exist in the current form at the outset? I do not beieve that they did.

All of which leads me to accept the religious belief of another as their personal and private relation to God. Not because some book has told me to be some way or other...be it the Bible, the D & C, or the Koran, to mention only a few...but because I know that I am constantly striving to be the best I can be and do what God would have me do, and I see others doing the same. May God bless us all.

Uh oh Jill..... You touched on a 'hot spot'.
When Mormanism started it was a polygamist society.
'Mainstream' LDS is no longer polygamist in the present life, but it is in the after life.
If a man and woman are sealed in the temple and then the woman dies, the man can be sealed to another woman....any number of times.
But if the man dies the woman is 'out of luck' and can't get re-married. So in death the man can have many wives.
What you are seeing in the news is the Fundamentalist Morman society. They belive the the mainstream Morman prophet, Orson Pratt, 'sold-out' to the US Govt so that Utah could be granted statehood.

When a man and woman are married for time, and also sealed in the temple for eternity, if either one should die, the other may remarry for timw. They belong to each other for eternity. The man may be sealed to other wives during his lifetime, if he has been widowed. The woman may be sealed to only one man. However, if for some reason she decides she does not want to remain as his wife in the next life, she is not forced to spend all eternity with a man whe doesn't love. Our Heavenly Father does not force. WE have out free will. He wants us to be happy. Man is that he might have joy.

I was sealed to a man who proved to be unworthy. After I divorced him, I received a cancellation of sealing and was allowed to be sealed to my next husband, a most worthy man.