Beautiful!!

YES! I love that band. Foley on lead bass, Sanborn on sax, and that looks like Tito Puente on percussion? I saw Miles perform around this time on an outdoor gig in NY — I can’t remember the place. Marcus wasn’t with him, but Foley was impressive. Tutu was the hit of the show — great tune.

no, that’s not tito on percussion. I know him but can’t make him out.

I’m pretty sure it’s Airto Moriera (sp?).
This was from a television show Sanborn hosted in the late 80s. The house band was killer: Marcus Miller, Hiram Bullock, Omar Hakim, Philippe Saise, David Sanborn. I wish NBC would release this stuff on dvd!

Wait. No. I was wrong. It’s Don Alias on percussion.

You pose the following question: “Can you hear the groove? What would happen if the Body of Christ found the groove like this?”
Ponder this.What would have happened to the psyche of all of the people who idolize Miles Davis if he proclaimed Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior in his lifetime? Would they have been so
receptive to the groove Miles Davis was laying down that you feel the Body of Christ needs to find.
Jazz (blues, swing,”the groove”) in America was born out of the body of Christ.
The Body of Christ does not have to find a groove that is rooted in a rejection of Christ in order to make peace with postmodern times.
The “groove” needs to find the Body of Christ.

Hello one and all,
I’ve been a bit busy lately…
krm, I’m with ya, though I don’t think your understanding me. I’m not promoting a Christianity in the tradition of Miles Davis, but more of what you aluded to–the jazz tradition. It was born in the church but the church has largely ignored it. So when I wonder about the church finding the groove, I could more accurately use words like, re-cover, re-discover, etc.
blessings to you all,
robert

I’m feelin your response. I am only suggesting that “one” of the reasons the church has not found the groove in relation to jazz is because many jazz musicians, scholars, critics are progressivley secular about jazz music. I contend that one of the ways to get the church to re-discover jazz is for musicians to create “good jazz music” that profoundly speaks to the Christian faith.
Visit http://www.ruthnaomifloyd.com as an example of what I am referring to.
Both sides have some work to do. Christian jazz musicians must also take the responsbility of recovering the groove for the Body of Christ.They can no longer be absorbed into the secular ethos that dominates jazz culture.

Is it more of jazz musicians needing to perform during church services, for the (church) members to hear them and “feel” them? For me, music ministers to the soul…(deep) jazz music does that for me, plus good, deep, jazz music is timeless and never goes out of style…
Forget who is a “secular” and who is a “christian” jazz musician. When jazz is played in our church, it feels good to hear the musicians playing their hearts and souls out….And to get it on a Sunday morning…now that’s what I am talkin’ bout! As our worship leader says, “let’s praise him on the B3, let’s praise him on the sax, etc.” And then they break it down…its something to see and hear!

It has been more common for jazz musicians to play in churches since the 1960s when Duke Ellington first presented his sacred concerts. Around the same time Jazz Vespers became a common practice in many Lutheran churches.Without question the music is deep and it makes us all “feel good.” My reference to what is “secular” and what is “Christian” speaks to the historical fact that most “good” jazz musicians secular or Christian have not created “jazz music” specifically to speak to the Body of Christ. —There is a difference!!!Rather, most jazz musicians have simply used their talents in a secular context(there is nothing inherently unholy about that because we all live in a secular world.And,yes many jazz musicians play in church on Sunday). But, where are the great works of jazz that express Christian faith? How are jazz musicians contending for the faith within the context of jazz music? For example, Bach was a musican who made
an “enormous”amount of music to speak directly to the Christian faith while also making music that was unrelated to expressing Christian faith.Jazz musicians by comparison have rarely created music to speak directly to the Christian faith.—-Hence, that is why I said it is not so much that the Body of Christ needs to find the groove (metaphorically) like Miles Davis and Marcus Miller playing “Tutu”, in my opinion,it is more about those who can play the groove and who are followers of Jesus Christ(i.e, “Christians”)using their talents for the Body of Christ as opposed to being “absorbed into the secular ethos (and economy) that dominates jazz culture”.
In a somewhat related matter, On January 13, 2007 there was a recent article in the NY Times about how black churches are continuing to lose their talented musicians to secular opportunities.See the article here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/13/us/13religion.htmlex=1326344400&en=cd24b88d5b2101e2&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
It is much deeper that just you and I feeling good as we see and hear jazz musicians play in church. I want to know whether they are creating works(songs, suites)that explicitly praise and teach about Jesus Christ that will be here for the Body of Christ long after we experience our moment of feeling good.

If the article link is not good; Google it.Here is the article heading:
On Religion
Black Churches Hungering for Musical Talent
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By SAMUEL G. FREEDMAN
Published: January 13, 2007

This is a nice discussion we have here on jazz music in the church etc…
Here’s my question, “What if jazz is not music?”
How would that change the discussion?
KRM–tell me about yourself…do we know each other?
DSW–welcome, glad you decided to step out of the shadows and into the land of comments.

So if jazz is NOT music…
Jazz is a conversation without words mostly between friends that goes deep with everyone getting a chance to express their opinion. Strangers can come in during the conversation and express their feelings as well…
The thing about jazz that I love is its fluidity. It flows throughout the generations, decades, etc. Words are not neccessary…the effects are still the same as if someone was singing. In fact, for me, I like it better when there’s no singing…I like to interpret for myself “what is being said” in my mind…however deep the conversation goes/gets and however you want to express yourself…its all good…
dsw

What if jazz is not music?” How would that change the discussion?
The discussion would be guided primarily by our respective subjectivism;which is what Ellison’s articulation of jazz represents.
Jazz Theologian ask KRM: “tell me about yourself”
KRM says:I have worked professionally with musicians who play jazz for over twenty years. During that time period I have studied and analyzed the relationship between jazz music in a “classical” sense and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.I have come to conclude that jazz music as a cultural phenomenom in the later half of the 20th century has become progressively secular and hostile to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Jazz (in its many cultural manifestations, including Ellison’s articulation of the same)has been treated like a religion itself.
Jazz Theologian ask KRM:do we know each other?
KRM says: No.
I am curious about your seminar Reflections of a Jazz Theologian. You state that “An average evening will consist of…. teaching about the connections between jazz and following Jesus”
Are the connections historical or philosophical in your seminar? I ask this because it seems to me that if you deal with historical information you get back to “jazz as music”.
All the best to all. I am bowing out for a while to get back to my busy work and family life.
I thank all of you for graciously engaging with me.
This blog concept is very compelling.

DSW,
I like where you went with that…conversation, fluidity, even welcomes strangers to have input. Now that is the kind of stuff that the church can learn from.
KRM,
I do hope you return, you contribution and conviction is invaluable. Though your comment about subjectivism being the outgrowth of jazz not being music surprised me. To be honest, jazz for me is like the “unknown god” of Athens in Acts 17.23. Unchristian yes, but also containing potential to communicate the gospel.
KRM, you asked about whether or not teaching about the connections between jazz and following Jesus would inevitably lead back to jazz as music. I don’t think that it has too, I think that jazz is most easily seen in music but that it shows up in other mediums as well.
blessings everybody,
robert

krm I hope you will be back very soon with your thoughts….and I hope you will get a chance to check out the jazz set this summer at Colorado Community Church in Aurora.
JT thanks for the welcome! I’m looking forward to this summer!
dsw

I could not help but to share an excerpt of an email I received from a jazz musician who circulates his thoughts around the internet in certain jazz music circles:
“But Jimmy also taught me that jazz is a way of life, a religion. You live as a jazz musician. You think as a jazz musician. Jazz influences your politics and your passions. I have yet to find a jazz Republican. If they exist, they can not be that good. Jazz makes you sensitive to the suffering and needs of others. It pushes you away from the rigid ideas on so-called conservative thinking. You are not a flag waver, you are not born-again evangelical. Why? Because you realize music transcends politics. And it is the language of God which transcends any religion. There is no such thing as a jazz Christian or jazz Muslim. Jazz cannot have those boundaries placed upon it. It is freedom…freedom of the individual spirit not some mass mediocrity called religion. I could not be a Christian and play jazz. That is why I have never taken the easy way out and gone back to being a Christian as I was for over 20 years. You have some like Stevie Wonder and Duke that go thru the motions of being Christians , but they know that the church is not the place God would ever be. They just do it because of the social pressure. I will never be that weak or that hypocritical. Christianity builds this guilt in you that makes you conform to it’s nonsense. Once you lose that guilt and fear, you are truly free. You see the universality of music. You focus on the whole, not the parts.
The only way to be a true musician is to live it. It can not be a part-time pursuit. It is a life encompassing journey. I call those who have accepted the “call” , the cats.”
KRM Returns and says:
This is what subjectivism about the word jazz gets us —Jazz as religion.–This view is quite common among jazz musicians and its community of afficianados.Check out the book “JAZZ : Myth and Religion by Neil Leonard. About his book, Leonard says: “it looks at how jazz has been regarded as supernatural and some of its consequences…His entire book addresses jazz as in relation to secularism.
That is why for me as a Christian; Jazz is first and foremost music because that is the cultural realm where our ancestors Africanized Christianity in song(i.e, the Spirituals). Out of that expression is where the blue notes and call -and -responses patterns of the spirituals provided the root ingredients of jazz as music.—They were not singing those songs for semantical reasons.They connected their suffering and their plight to Christ on the Cross.Those songs contained the theology of Africanized Christian thought.
For Christians to use terms and
expressions that embrace the secular thought of many that view jazz as a religion(i.e,freedom…freedom of the individual spirit, fluidity, etc)and then contend that we can view jazz as a means to experience Christian “faith in particular” would convict “me” as a Christian witness.
I love jazz music and I appreciate “some” of its cultural ideas, but “I” would be very circumspect about using terms that are largely embraced by people who view “jazz as religion”
Has Christ not given us all that we need?Did He not say:”It is finished.”
To me, the challenge for those of us who love jazz and are about serving our Lord and Savior; is to “constantly define ourselves by the Gospel of Jesus Christ… in the 21st century” (quoting Os Guiness from “Prophetic Untimeliness” (2002).

WOW! I’m digging what your counterpart stated in his email to you …”but they know that the church is not the place God would ever be.” I like where he is going with this, but I disagree..GOD is definitely in the church…GOD is everywhere, therefore he is also in the church…he doesn’t discriminate or separate like we do. He is not calling me to be religious, but to be spiritual, faithful, loving and most of all giving (among other things). I believe we are truly free when we learn to love one another and serve one another (like Jesus) all the time without fail (which is why we are all provided with grace)…
Music is subjective at best. Jazz music does “it” for me. It moves me to different places… I love that it speaks to me without words, that an instrument can make the breath sound so sweet when coming out of a horn, or the stroke of the hand placed stategically on the guitar or upright bass, reach my soul and into my spirit and that no one sang a song or even spoke, amazes me! I love jazz music, for what it is and what it does for me!

dsw, I have a visceral connection with jazz as well. It’s the music but so much more–it’s the story and how it came about.
krm, I hope your still around. I understand your concerns about jazz be approached almost as a religion and this is not a view that I hold.
You asked, “Has not Christ given us all we need?” Of course, but the Gospel only exist as translated through culture. It does not exist in a vacuum.
Christ shows us that his work on the cross brings about redemption–I think that this work extends to culture and can and should include jazz.
That is why I mentioned Acts 17.23 above…if Paul could take an idol and use it to communicate the glorious gospel then why not jazz?
blessings,
robert

if Paul could take an idol and use it to communicate the glorious gospel then why not jazz?
KRM says: fair enough.
God Bless and keep up your good work.

Christ shows us that his work on the cross brings about redemption–I think that this work extends to culture and can and should include jazz.
KRM: we agree 100% on that point.