Scot,
This is absolutely fascinating. I wonder about the commentaries/translation difference. Could it be that the idea of “whenever…recite” flies in the face of Jesus’ words “Don’t pray like the pagans with empty babblings/vain repetitions”? That’s what the popular thinking is anyway.

The operative language has always been “vain repetitions,” hasn’t it? And, yes, I’m sure that is part of it, but even the liturgical tradition translations don’t bring the recitative sense to the surface in their translations.

————–
” The grammar clearly means ‘whenever you pray [together], you should say/recite the Lord’s Prayer.’ ”
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I’m curious about the “together” part. Could you say more about that? It almost sounds like you’re saying that this passage applies to corporate prayer and not individual prayer?

Scot,
Being rusty on my Greek, what would the Greek phrase be that would support “When…” rather than “Whenever…”? The New Jerusalem Bible translates, “So you should pray like this:….”

OK, I’ll ask the question that I think at least some others may be thinking: What is the difference between ‘when’ and ‘whenever’, actually?

Dave,
The disciples come to Jesus and, in essence, ask him for a prayer they can use in the way John had done so for his followers. In other words, they are asking for a “community prayer” just for themselves. Inasmuch as Jesus gives them a variant of a standard Jewish prayer, called the Kaddish (I talk about this in Jesus Creed), another factor supports the notion that Jesus is talking how to pray when they are together.
Does it apply to individual prayer? Yes, surely. But the point of the Lord’s Prayer is a “community-shaped prayer just for Jesus’ followers.”

Chris,
The “ever” part shows the recitation of the Lord’s Prayer is “iterative” in expectation. It will occur over and over, whenever one prays.
“When” is more specific and emphasizes a correlation: “when I go to town, I buy coffee.”
“Whenever” emphasizes more the fulfillment of the act without any restrictions: “Whenever I go to town, I buy coffee.” In other words, “everytime I go to town, I …”.

John,
Are you looking at the translation of Matthew 6:9?

Oops. Yes, I’m looking at Matt 6:9 rather than Lk 11:2.

Scot, you may well have a point, but you spoil it with:
Why is that “say” is used instead of “recite”
— for the term “recite” is what is in mind if one is
to say this very prayer whenever one prays.
But the Greek word here, legete, simply means
“say”, not “recite”. And the words don’t mean the same
in English. “Recite” implies a certain style of
speech, and perhaps a certain attitude, as well as
mere regular repetition. The disciples were not asked
to get all religious about this, but only to “say”
these words to their heavenly Father.

Scot, I understand your point and appreciate your post, but in my ideolect the word “when” is ambiguous. One of its meanings is identical to the meaning of “whenever” which you prefer. So, it is possible for me to get the meaning you prefer from the traditional wording with “when,” although the preferred meaning is arguably *clearer* with “whenever.”
I always enjoy reading Bible translation posts on your blog. It gives me a reason to put up a post of my own linking to yours, saving me time in my busy work day.

Peter,
But, if “say” refers to saying the same Lord’s Prayer every time, we need the word “recite”.
Wayne,
I think the issue is significant enough because of the “always-ness” of “whenever” that comes through but does not need to come through with “when.”
Thanks for your remarks.

If “say” means to recite the “exact” words that Jesus used, then why do we think we can change the language from Greek into English? I have understood this prayer as a pattern of prayer for believers that contain the basic elements laid out by Jesus rather than as John noted; something that easily can turn into vain repetition, with content being more important than form. People can say this prayer in their sleep and often do.

Scot,
There should be harmony between the hotan of Luke 11:2 and the houtos of Matthew 6:9. If I stood up and preached what you said on Luke 11:2 I would immediately be challenged with the Sermon on the Mount version. So, would it be appropriate to say “whenever you pray recite it [this way] without it becoming a vain repetition.” I use the Lord’s prayer everyday and throughout the day as a template. I recite it and meditate on it. Would Jesus have this same understanding, or are we misunderstanding prayer in some way?

This is kinda funny, I looked up this exact passage back when you were talking about daily “prayer times” but I never ended up posting on it.
The Greek does not seem say “recite” I really think you are placing this meaning there — when it’s not. It does seem to say “whenever,” however I don’t think we can assume just because it says whenever, that you should actually recite the exact words that He then goes on to say.
Further you seem to completely ignore Matthew 6 … “Pray then like this:” it’s clear He’s saying “in this fashion” or “in this way” hence not the exact words he says (which differ even between Luke and Matthew) but in the sprit of how He’s praying, in the manner.
To reduce it to mere liturgy misses the point altogether.
Also Matthew 6 does not seem to imply anything about prayer “together” and in fact it says to go to your room alone! “But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret.”
If we only had Luke, I’d be more inclined to agree — but given we have Matthew which seems to contradict some of your views, how do you suggest we handle that?

Ken,
I think the houtos (long o) of Matt 6:9 should not be rendered “in a similar manner” or “something like this” or “using LP as just a template”, though I do think this is fair and I do this myself. Dallas Willard is known for writing about it like this, and I refer to it in Jesus Creed.
Matt clearly sees the LP as a template, but “houtos” is probably best “pray thus” when you pray. Recite and meditate upon.
The problem with Gentile prayers was length — they thought they’d be heard because they went on and on. Jesus offers a simple prayer to use.
And, on Matt 6:9-13, it is precisely this version that the Didache tells us the early Christians recited 3x/day.
There is intense value, over time, with a meditate recitation of a given prayer.

Justin,
We’ve got both of them, and my comment is on Luke 11, which is different.
On Matt 6, though, the LP is about short-prayer vs. long-winded prayer. The closet prayer is a response to hypocrites who pray to be heard and to be congratulated. There is a break between 6:6 and 6:7, and both context and substance change as well. So, I would not bring the closet requirement into 6:7-13.
I’ve commented on “houtos” — to say this can only mean “thusly” or “in this sort of fashion, with this prayer as a template” is stretching it. It is an adverb with flex in meaning; it can mean “say this” to “pray like this.”
On the Greek not saying “recite” — well, “legete” has also a spectrum of meanings. My point is contextual and it is about Luke: if it is about using a prayer over and over, as was the custom for Jews and became the custom for early Christians, then “recite” is the proper flavor of translation. Maybe you don’t agree, but I think you’ll admit a certain probity about keeping it consistent. If something is said “whenever” you pray, then that something is being recited — if also prayed meaningfully.

Scot,
Well I will admit that the general form should be ‘recited’ in a sense (or even the first line directly.) However, it worries me that it would become hollow instead of holy if the prayer isn’t constantly examined, thought upon and changed for daily needs. That it would in fact, become an empty phrase — just as many people tact on “in Jesus’ name” on the end of their prayers having no idea why they actually say that.
I do agree that Jesus is saying “don’t go on like them” but perhaps that he’s kinda saying “look, just do it short and sweet like this.”

Justin,
You raise a really good point: the issue of recitation becoming vain repetition or mindless. This has long concerned me, but I know God asked Israel to recite the Shema 2x a day or more (depending on how you read Deut 6:4-5), and I have come to the conclusion that the problem with recitation is not what is said but who is doing the saying and whether or not that person is genuinely engaged in his or her own words. In other words, the problem is us — our human sinfulness — and not the words we are asked to pray. Far better to slow down and say what we are supposed to than to say meaningfully things that diminish us with selfishness. (I think this is clear enough.)

Scot,
Alright — lets go with that, lets say that Jesus left this for us to recite — and that its our problem that it can become hollow instead of holy.
Why then would Jesus have proscribed such a practice (as a help) when it is so very likely to become vain?
Also, on a related note: I was just going over Acts 12 where Peter is broken out of prison by an angel, then heads over to the house of his friends who are praying in the middle of the night. I wonder, were they praying together? Separately? How late was it? Was that a common practice?

Justin,
I can only guess why God does things — but it starts with the Shema in Deut 6, and keeps on growing. The reason I see for all this to be reminded of what is important, and when we wander from central things life gets distorted.
In Acts 12 I get the sense they are praying for Peter (12:5, 12-17).

Scot,
I agree with you that the problem of “vain repetition” and mindless prayer is with us and not with the content/words that Jesus gave us to recite. I wonder if our worry over mindless prayer is a symptom of our reverence for rationality. We are taught to be very repetitious with our driving habits. We’re not free to do anything we want. As a matter of fact how often have we driven for miles mindlessly? The purpose of repetitive prayer is to do exactly that–make the words and the meaning not mindless, but “part of us.” Just as we navigate a car without thinking: press the accelerator, turn on the blinker, slow down, speed up, brake, etc., so we navigate life with the “rules” of the soul imprinted in our being through repetitive prayer. To repeat something regularly is not sinful nor in itself vain repetition. It’s spiritual discipline. What do you think?

If people live their prayer lives anything remotely like they drive around here — we’re all in trouble.

“But, the text’s translation is not open to dispute.”
Scot, Scot, Scot… I will NOT take this bait. I did that enough in Seminary.
“Lead me not into temption . . .”
Have a great Christmas, by the way.

John, I think you have an excellent point. I was memorizing the prayer from Luke today, since I, like most of us, already know the Matthew prayer by memory. I think repeating that prayer together (and privately) helps train us as to how we should pray, what our priorities in prayer should be. Prioritizing love to God and to our neighbor and our brothers and sisters. “The Jesus Creed”.

“that prayer” – I meant the one in Luke. Concise yet full.

John,
Yes, I agree — it is about letting the words become part of us so we can dwell in them, as they constantly remind us of our life before God.

Scot,
You alluded to this “when” v. “whenever” difference a while back, and I was hoping you’d elaborate. Thanks on behalf of us who don’t know Greek.
Justin,
I had to check out your blog to see where you were from. I would have sworn you lived in Dayton with that comment!
On the issue of mindless repetition:
Surely we don’t think that extemporaneous prayer is the solution? I’m sure everyone here has heard the following or something real close to it: “Lord, you’re just so good to us, Lord; and, Lord, we want to thank you for being good, Lord, because, Lord, you’re just so good to us, Lord.”
The fact that repetition isn’t inherently mindless shows up right here on this blog. Here we are, two milenia later, continuing to chew on the Lord’s Prayer: its purpose, its place, its proper use. Add to this the time that has been spent examining the “same old” Torah and Prophets…. Haven’t I read somewhere that the Word of the Lord is living and active?

Amen Cory. Preach it brother!

The objection I have to this (not theological or liturgical, rather lexical) is that hOTAN can mean when. I’ll admit that Scot’s case makes sense, however L-N has a “when” category for hOTAN as does BDAG (though it lists this passage under “whenever”).
I think I would want to see a stronger grammatical argument as to why I should take one over the other. As it stands, I am more likely to side with Scot, but am not fully convinced.
Oh, and Merry Christmas all. I will be unlikely to have computer access for a bit, so my best wishes to all of you as you celebrate the birth of our Lord.

Scot,
I don’t see why we should stop at “I can only guess why God does things” we examine that all the time. However, your discussion with John kind of cleared up for me what you’re getting at.
And btw, I know they were praying for Peter in Acts 12 — I was getting at what this might tell us about early prayer practices.
Cory,
When I spoke of traffic was mostly referring to slightly north of me (Los Angeles) …
I completely agree with your impression of common prayer, in fact I wrote some thoughts about that a little while back … I’ve heard that sort of thing far too often but then again it might be mostly due to nervousness.

Scot,
I think that you’re correct on the recite thing. And I think that the Lord’s Prayer should be the primary prayer of Jesus’ followers — the whole kingdom desire is packed in there and the prayer can be prayed about anything and everything. It can also be used as a template. Our men’s prayer group recites the Lord’s Prayer and elaborates on each section — applying it to various situations. “Lord, we pray for your kingdom to come and your will to be done in this complicated situation that we’re facing…” We’ve used this pattern for over 10 years. Works great.
However, I’m still not sure that I follow your destinction between “when” and “whenever.” You are probably technically correct but I suspect that you are being more precise than most people in their usage. I believe that for most of us the meaning that you attribute to “whenever” is as easily carried in the simplier “when.”

Scot, great post. Thanks.
I am with you on “whenever” and also on the communal aspect of this prayer. I don’t know if it’s an anabaptist influence, but I’ve always naiively prayed this communally because it says “Our” and not “My.”
I also tend towards luke’s version because it is easier for me to read in my ideas about jubilee, debt, etc.
However, I do share the same question as a number of writers. It seems perfectly legitimate to read this as ‘pray like this.’ I don’t think we see the early church (i.e. I’m thinking of not much later than Acts) reciting this prayer every time they get together. But I’ve got no problem with thinking that they used it as a template.
Perhaps I’m missing something?

Agreed. Iteration. Communal. And it says ‘say’ rather than recite because as someone pointed out it is all about Kingdom. Theologians correct me:
We pray because God spoke first. All speech originates with the Trinity. Being made in His image, God talks to us but we talk to Him, but all prayer begins with God. Prayer belongs to the Sons of the Fahter. But because we are cracked icons as Scot puts it, and our communion is broken, we can now only pray, and we pray *because*, of Christ’s work on the cross, we pray because we are saved, by being united with Him by faith. And in being united with Him by faith, by saving us, God has revealed Himself as Father and his Father’s will: redemption for all of creation. So when we pray, we who know Him think his thoughts after him, and pray according to His will which is one way in which God achieves His purpose. Which is why we *say* yes with God, not recite a mantra. Prayer is eschatological.
Something like that.

Brad,
One is subjunctive; the other indicative. The subjunctive “creates a world” in which whenever his followers pray they say this.
Graham,
The template thing, to me, is fine — for houtos can work that way. The facts are that Jews had set prayers for set times, the early Christians did too, and this sort of prayer comes from the Qaddish that is a set prayer, and it all looks like a “set prayer for a set time.”
S,
Only at the end did you get back to the issue at hand: I’m all for prayer being learning to be in communion with God, but Jesus gave us a prayer that can lead us right into that communion as he thinks best. It is not “reciting a mantra” — and this is a good place to say this: by using these terms the case is prejudiced against it. The Lord’s Prayer is a sacred rhythmical prayer.

Thanks Scot. Don’t understand your last two sentences. I said it is “not reciting a mantra”. Are you saying that it is a sort of mantra? (and I am deliberately distancing the Lord’s prayer from all forms of eastern-style mantra…not sure if you are using mantra in more generic terms)

S,
To use the term “mantra” seems to prejudice the case.
Instead of using “mantra,” the standard language is that the Lord’s Prayer is part of a sacred rhythm.

Scot’s use of the word rhythm is an important part of the iterative nature of the Lord’s prayer. Modern, urban living has taken away living life with a natural rhythm. The ability to travel quickly, illuminate darkness, eat whenever we desire (whenever is correct over when ), have heat and air conditioning, etc. have given us new rhythms not in keeping with creation. I am learning that there is much to be said for practicing and enjoying the natural rhythms of life to contribute to culture as well as enrich our understanding of God. I’m not as worried about vain repititions of prayers, etc. because reciting them contributes to a natural rhythm.
I am not suggesting the elimination of modern conveniences or mindless recitations. I am saying there is more to the recitation of the Lord’s prayer than simply the words.

To throw some thoughts of a more non-linear nature in here. I was raised in an atheist home. But I can still remember the day and spot in the dirt road walking home from the school bus stop where I memorized the Lord’s Prayer when I was about 12. I’m not sure how I memorized it, because I didn’t have it written down anywhere. I don’t know how or where I was exposed to it, and at that time I could count on one hand the number of times I’d been in a church in my life (mostly with grandparents). Somehow I knew it was important, and important to recite it from memory regularly. I’m saying this with a sense of awe at how the Spirit can move. I don’t have any pattern to reciting it, but I do recite it regularly and it’s almost become part of my breathing because it was my only prayer for so long. It was my only connection to the I Am for years and years before i ever knew that i could have any other connection to Him. I didn’t know the context, or what the teaching was, just that something in me said to recite it regularly and so I did. And somehow stayed connected in that way. I have no explanation for it. And it was quite some time into my “Christian walk,” before I knew that this was even in the Bible!
I don’t know if that has anything to do with what Jesus taught about it, but it’s how I’ve lived it out. And I hope this doesn’t detract from the track of the discussion. But I think regular reciting of prayer from the heart does make a difference in our lives. Having said that, if we ever get to the point when we are just mouthing words tho, then we are no longer praying, but going through the motions and I do think there is a difference. But that (as in everything) is an issue of our heart attitude.
fwiw, sonja

I have always understood the issue of vain repition not to be about the recitation of specific prayers, even “mindlessly”, but about the practice of some Pharisees of praying long prayers in public in order to show off their peity. Given that the Jews are and certainly were in Jesus’ time a liturgical people who repeated certain prayers several times a day, its seems unlikely to me that Jesus was condemning repetitive prayer in and of itself.
Even the “mindless” repitition of prayers can have value, as anyone who uses the Orthodox Jesus Prayer can testify.
All the availiable evidence is that the early Christian community was liturgical. The onus of proof therefore is on non-liturgical evangelical churches to justify themselves, rather than on liturgical and traditional churches.
I think Scot has made an important and accurate point. The Lord’s Prayer is not simply a model of prayer, it is a specific liturgical prayer given to us to recite at regular times throughout the day, just as the Eucharist is a specific liturgical command.

Shawn,
I couldn’t have said that better myself.

Scot, for a clarification- you are saying from the Greek that the prayer in Luke is the one we are to recite? And the prayer in Matthew is given to us to help us know how to pray?

Ted,
No, I’m no saying that. I don’t think the distinction in Matthew and Luke is that great — recite either one. The Church has always recited the Matthean form, as it is more complete.

As a Refomed Anglican in the REC I found this to be absolutley fascinating and refreshing.