Well put. Education is part of our formation as people and our maturation as Christians. Unfortunately, formal education has become a prerequisite to developing a career instead of an integral part of discovering one’s vocation.

College should be about learning to think – broadly. An important part of maturation. It is not about the acquisition of a particular set of “professional facts” or worse yet, simply a rite of passage to check off the right boxes and obtain a piece of paper necessary for future success.
I have the opposite problem to yours – far too many students are in my classes because they are seen as the path to money and career (pre-meds, pre-dents, those looking to the pharmaceutical industry etc.). Unfortunately many (most?) don’t want to put in the effort required to learn to think.
(Although in my case perhaps college has now lasted some 25+ years).

Oh yes, the “education vs. training” debate. I feel both are equally important. I don’t blame parents if they are concerned about their son or daughter ending up with a large student loan debt to have a “to me” education (even students themselves are concerned about that).
A formal education is a stewardship issue. Therefore, I would encourage parents, students and educators to consider both education (to me) and training (for me)benefits in their schooling decisions.
One more thing: Let’s remember that “to me” education doesn’t end when college ends. We call that “life-long learning.”

One of the most fruitful aspects of studying in a Medieval town (St. Andrews) was walking to and from the university every day, giving me time to reflect on my work, its structure, its implications for my life and Christian identity, its relationship to other disciplines, etc. My students these days are all overloaded with semester hours so that they have no time to do their work reflectively. They’re just getting assignments done without thinking, which they don’t see as a problem, since all they’re doing is accumulating credentials to put themselves into position for a good job.
Sadly, universities (even Christian ones) are complicit in this, since they live and die by the bottom line–semester hours sold. So, they subtly/not so subtly encouraged students to go through their university years–the most formative time of their lives–in such a way that ensures that they will NOT be transformed and shaped in radically fruitful ways.
Stanley Hauerwas’s critique of Christian universities along this line is highly relevant and worth hearing.
What would a truly Jesus-shaped education look like in the face of such challenges?

As a graduate of a small Bible college I can testify to the power of on-campus “life education”. My interaction with people I lived with grew me as a person socially and theologically. There is an intangible quality to investing not just your time but yourself in a college setting.
I must confess that this makes me a bit leery of “distance learning”. Someone who earns a degree apart from learning in a community setting surely doesn’t have the same experience as a seat-sitting student. While a person may learn much from books he never will know what he could’ve learned from others.

Tim, where is Hauerwas’ study?
It is an interesting suggestion that, since school charge tuition on hours taken, we encourage students to take more hours to save money and that gives them less time to ponder.
So, at NPU we have the same tuition for 12-17 hours. Which means, students take 17 if possible. It is 400 dollars per hour extra for 18 and over.
I like what Wheaton is doing for its PhD program: full-time only. And there is a stipend so the students are doing nothing but studying. Wisdom galore in that one.

I had quite a few friends that took certain courses of study because they would be able to “make lots of money” or “get a job,” but most of them (except the education majors) took jobs completely unrelated to their fields of study, just as I did. And, here at seminary, there are a lot of people who have Religion or Bible or Philosophy degrees, but there are also plenty of people who took Math or Chemistry or English. So it seems that employers are not the only folks looking for more than a specific degree.

You know, being one those “concerned parents” I understand the “to me” element of education, but also being one of those parents who has his son back home and his friend living in our basement because their “to me” degree does not allowed them to attract a job that would provide a wage they could launch with, it would be nice to have a little more “for me” element in the process. Especially when the costs of said “to me” education ran about 18K a year.
Since I have two other young men about to hit the college ranks, I want them to have a good education which forms them, but I also want them to get a job and start their lives.
And don’t even start me on the 5 year plan issue.

Kent,
Dang, a voice of wisdom from a parent. To be sure, we need both — I think more of it favors the “for me” today than ever before.
I’m all for students doing some internships during the summers; and for getting a wide variety of experiences that can give them clues about the kinds of things they want to do.
In my experience, the kids who struggle the most with what they want to do have some of the highest people skills — and they really just want to be with people — and it could be in just about any field. They are even natural leaders at times. But, they need to find a setting in which those skills will be employed (or utilized).

This is a critique that Hauerwas has levelled for some time against Christian colleges and universities–that they train young people for the purposes of the state instead of as subversively fruitful Jesus-followers that will genuinely bless church and culture. He presented a paper at the Univ. of Dayton recently, and at St. Andrews, that’ll end up as a chapter in his upcoming book. I’ve got a pdf. of it somewhere around here and will send it to you if I can find it.

Kent,
While some “for me” is warranted – I see too many students in majors chosen for career potential who see absolutely no “to me” value in the experience. No wonder diploma mills can be successful.
I have also interacted with some highly motivated students with double majors (or almost double majors) – one practical and one for the love of it (Chemistry and … Music or Japanese or Jewish Studies or Philosophy or History or …)

Ever since my own experience and seeming lack of direction and frequent changes in ‘major’ declaration, I decided it would be more prudent to complete SOME degree and see what transpires in the “real world”.
I do think it would be helpful if the college advisors played a more active role in assisting the student find their ‘place’. At 18 I was completely unprepared to declare and work towards a degree.
Ultimately I ended up with a B.S. in Biology and used it for the first 10 years only to transfer into a management field and while the biology courses were no longer helpful the paper diploma was.
For me…college was about the experience and COMPLETING a goal. It was about socialization development and learning that even the ultimate freedom comes at a cost.

I am not sure if there is a relationship or not, but isn’t this the same thing that many Christians struggle with when reading Scripture? We treat it as an answer book in which we go looking for answers to how to manage finances, raise our kids, have a successful life. We look to the Bible (and Jesus?) for what it can do for us, instead of what it can do to us. Maybe I have been reading too much Dallas Willard lately. A good book on this is Mulholland’s “Shaped By the Word”, (or Chapter 18 of “The Jesus Creed”).

isn’t this true for any situation, activity, or season in life? we realize that whatever we are doing, we cannot help but grow in our character through that activity, whether for better or worse. we are on a spiritual journey, so everything should be seen within that context, not just things like education or vocation.

RJS I complete understand that collegiate education is formational. I do, I get that. But it is only 4 – 5 years. We are formed far longer that. And I am certain the “for me” and “to me” issue is not either/or but on a continuum.
My point as the one who wrote the checks and who will be writing the checks for long time is that while we are being formed we still have to be paid, and paid enough to at least support ourselves if not a family. I know that everyone does not work in the area of their degree. I do not. I received a business degree and now pastor a church.
And since we are on the education issue is there anything you do about the cost of books. That is enough to tear you hair out. Not that I have hair.

As an English and History major I had plenty of time to ponder. I followed that up with a law degree that was a bit more professionally focused though still leaving time to ask questions. Interestingly to me is that since entering the practice of law I have found it a struggle to let my colleagues, my clients, my cases and my resreach questions be what they are and grow me as education once did and should still. I would be curious when this “maturing learner” idea should stop. I would hope it wouldn’t.

Scot,
As a person who managed to shove 4 years into 8, I would say that the most important part was the to me. Both my parents are educators and they told me to be in a hurry for an education, not a degree. I ended up doing graduate school, am currently ABD and always will be.
When I finished my comprehensive exams, I ended up getting a job in a warehouse and worked in distribution for 15 years. My degrees are liberal arts, actually languages. That is a common result of studying ancient languages If I had been in it for me, I would have been depressed, but I was more interested in the to me.
15 years later, I am now working for Eisenbrauns in an area that I actually have training in. Funny how God works things in our lives over the years.

Scot — I think, ideally, you are right. We should go to school to better ourselves. Reality in America (and Europe from what I’ve heard) is that some degrees are “more equal than others.” Most companies, especially if hiring for entry level management, would rather have the Math degree than the BTS because Math seems more…(fill in the blank).
And, you wrote, “Education will mature (if you accept that as a verb) us…” As for mature as a verb, a wise person once said, “Any noun can be verbed.”
Larry #5 — I have attended classes at two different seminaries. The first I had to drive 3-1/2 hours each way to get to, the second was on-line learning. At the one where I was an “in seat student” I spent all my non-class time making copies of texts I would need for homework at the library and had very limited interaction with any other students outside of the classroom (nothing deeper than “how’s the weather? did you catch the game? type stuff). At the distance learning class, we were forced to interact on-line by the class setup. I found that I was more willing to speak my mind, and found that my interaction in class was MUCH deeper and more life changing than it ever was in a classroom. I realize that this is a rabbit trail, and I also realize that my experience may be unique, but for me, distance learning was not only deeper, it was also much more “for me” education than in chair learning ever was.

Now 20+ years out of college I don’t see myself as one bit more mature than friends around me who never went to college. I also know stacks of outstanding senior saints who only went to school through 8th grade.
And then there is that great line from Good Will Hunting. “You wasted $150,000 on an education you coulda got for a buck fifty in late charges at the public library.”
My older daughter was an early reader. She told me that she realized that if she learned to read she could learn anything that she wants to. The ability to self educate is deeply undervalued in much of our society.

Sorry about the italics, I thought I closed the tag after the first word. Ooops!

I think college education has a purpose but nailing down a job isn’t one of them. The 3 things that a person will hopefully learn in college:
1) This will not ensure that I get a job
2) Some of these people are way better than me
3) There is always room to grow
So yeah, it should hopefully make them a person who is a bit more humble, a bit more open to learning new things and a person who is open to getting trained in an instant. That’s why I think there should be an active summer internship program and even a last semester 6 month internship in line with whatever field you’re in. Right before graduation like that can be a great jump start into a career especially after 6 work-year months instead of 2.5 summer-months.
As for majoring in Biblical and Theological Studies I’ve gotta say that I usually skim the education part of the resume. The person’s accomplishments and resume presentation win me over more than the listing of school or degree.
For someone fresh out of school this might prove problematic so in that scenario I would advise the person majoring in that program to certified in things that would be beneficial to Biblical studies and have applicability in a business environment. Such as mastering Excel, Access, MsWord, Database Management and learning multiple languages (beside Greek and Latin which may not be a required in a BTS degree) like Spanish and Chinese. These skill sets can easily be used in a global market and be exceedingly useful in a lifelong commitment to studying the Word.
As for online education I think its great after a formal education. High School (in the US anyway) already has a student primed for thinking that he or she is golden. Seeing the work of other people, how they look when they’re doing it, the non-verbal communication that goes on when the professor is reacting to the student—these things are just as essential to college education as receiving information. It’s in the college environment where a person really learns to tone down rhetoric especially if the professor constantly challenges (something that I’ve rarely seen in High School).

I might have been fuzzy in my last paragraph. Basically I was saying: High School puffs up, College breaks down but if a person goes from High School to Online College the education module is so insular that they may not encounter that breaking down process that is found in the tangible arena of College.

To a large degree I second what Rey says in #22 – which is, I think, the best response to Bryan in #19.
Yes – we can and do learn many things from reading. I would bet I read as much or more and more broadly than most here (except Scot). But there is an important element of bouncing ideas off of each other – back and forth – that simply does not come from individual study, either in the Library or on line.
We humans are capable of rationalizing the most amazing things when not challenged and forced to defend our ideas.

While I don’t think of myself as ‘more mature’ than my non-college educated friends, I do see a difference in the way we process information. I agree with #22 Rey about college breaking down a person.
College is about so much more than an education. The greatest benefit for me was realizing I was NO longer in the top 5%…I was now somewhere down the ranking and was surrounding by brighter people. An extremely humbling experience.
With regards to buying books…my husband who is completing his degree as an ‘older student’ buys most of his books through Walmart.com and picked up his $200-300 books for $5-15 (some of them brand new). It can be done on a budget, trust me!

Isn’t this how many or most approach their careers as well? Further, isn’t this a practical outworking of how we individually and collectively respond to Jesus’ challenge to seek first the kingdom of God and let him take care of these other needs, or to chose to serve (organize our lives around) him rather than money?
Both on the giving and the receiving end of college education (and in every field) there are those who equate a person’s financial best interest with their best interest in general, and there are those do not. I would agree, though, that for several reasons, most educational institutions (and most students) are structured around the “for” element first, and secondarily, if at all, the “to” element.

Kent,
On textbooks — e-mail the profs and ask for the syllabus in advance. You can always buy those books online cheaper. But, some students try to do that the second week of class and then complain they don’t have the book yet. Sorry, friend, I say to them.
RJS,
That comment about rationalizing anything stunned me. Hence, the need for academics either to give public papers at the school or write articles and books and not just wax eloquent before 19 year olds who can’t interact critically with some of the theories the professor presents.

Scot and RJS,
Even at the highest levels of education people still rationalize the most amazing things. For example, some college professors believe in God, and others are sure there is no God.
I’m not saying college is unimportant. It’s just not the only way to acheive the goals related to Scot’s big point.

Bryan,
Interaction doesn’t mean unanimity and agreement – academics can certainly argue and disagree with the best of them. This is especially true when dealing with an inherently “unprovable” proposition such as the existence of God.
Interaction however does require ideas to be tested and challenged and defended. Independent study does not provide an adequate forum for this. While interaction does not have to be in a formal education setting, I think that one of the “to me” features of college education should be the shaping and building of these interactive thinking skills (no matter what major is pursued).

Whoops – I meant Brian, not Bryan both times. Sorry.

Boy, are you a voice in the wilderness! Seems most of our universities have pretty much given themselves over to being not much more than high end “vo-tech” centers. Basically how to get a skill & make a living. What is tragic is if Christian colleges embrace such a mindset.

RJS,
I agree with your comment in #28, but the goals related to Scot’s big point go far beyond academics. He is talking growing up. That eventually happens for most people with or without college, sometimes in spite of college, and sometimes rather unrelated to having gone to college. So maybe the connection between college and growing up should be viewed less intrinsically.
Much of growing up comes just with dealing with whatever life we have between ages 18 and 30, if we deal with it well. The college factor is not an essential one in growing up, it’s just that that is where many of us are when it happens.
My dad might well have replaced this discussion on the relationship between military enlistment and growing up.
All I am getting at is that the connection between college and growing up is

Scot,
I like your points but I have to say it sounds like you are putting the responsibility on the student for making college do something to us rather than for us. Yes, it is our responsibility to view college as transformational if it is ever going to do something to us, but it is also in part the University’s responsibility. It is hard to focus on transforming your character when you are worried about completing assignments, getting A’s, and meeting requirements of future graduate schools. I’m in my 5th and final year at NPU in Youth Ministry and can say that I have struggled. I want college to help me become an excellent minister, not just give me a diploma so I have the credentials to do so. But demands to excel in class, take full-loads to save money, and to gain experience through volunteer and paid work a leaves little time for the personal study and character development I crave. If character development is so valuable, why aren’t universities, especially Christian, helping students make space to develop?

Brian,
I agree that growing up does not have to mean college – and can happen in a variety of settings. College isn’t right for everyone and everyone who goes to college doesn’t grow up as a result of the experience.
I was responding to your comment: “My older daughter was an early reader. She told me that she realized that if she learned to read she could learn anything that she wants to. The ability to self educate is deeply undervalued in much of our society.”
This is the only part of your point I was actually trying to address. Self education on an individual level is not enough – we need interaction. Of course this does not have to be in a formal school setting.

Oops. I forgot to delete the sentance fragment at the end of #31.

Scot,
Great advice here. I experienced some of that early on, but later, really did not do this sufficiently. Hopefully students and schools (Christian) are gearing themselves to help make better people, and not just satisfy the insatiable demands of academia.

It’s fun to read this today – I spent yesterday morning in orientation here at Fuller, and in his address to new students Dr. Mouw talked about (only somewhat jokingly) “what we hope we can do to you” while you are here. His whole point was that our time here would be a formational one and not just a professional-training place. (passion for 1. life of the mind, 2. impacting culture through the Kingdom of God, and 3. for the unity of the global body of Christ) – so that Christ will have first place in all of those things.
I’m very aware that my time in college, alomst 10 years ago now (disclosure: at Wheaton), was HUGELY personally formational. Most if what it did FOR me lay precisely in what it did TO me: formed me to be a certain kind of person that I will take with me into any field or area. And let’s jsut point out that a major in philosophy and literature is not the normal route to youth ministry …
Partly in response to Maria in #32: I want to be careful in how I say this, but character development is ultimately the responsibility of the individual. Looking back on my full loads in college and the internships and part-time jobs and stresses of that – I realize that my character was formed precisely in the middle of all that. It’s doesn’t happen apart from it in pure personal study and reflection; it’s the fruit of reflection and action in the middle of all I go through. It’s in my choices of how to act, live, think, and relate in the goings on of all those different experiences. In college I was provided with an environment and a community – but in the end the “to me” work lay at the intersection of God’s sprit at work in and through me and my willingness to learn and cooperate with all that was going on around me.
Andy

One of the things that I have learned about education is that in many ways it helps clarify who we are. Just like climbing a really hard mountain, the process brings out something in us that would not have become evident had we not climbed the mountain. What companies are paying thier employees for is hopefully they have accumulated enough experiences that have given them the qualities that will translate into success in the business world. The problem in many cases is that students try and take the easiest road up the mountain and if there is a chair lift to the top, many would take it. There was an earlier post about undergrad vs grad students here on the Jesus Creed that
addressed that issue. Jesus transformed water into wine and in many cases schools can do the same thing, transform students into something better than they were. The transformation in many cases is merely bringing something to the surface that was dormant. I think that education directly does something to me and obliquely something for me.

Thank you so much for this post. It made me smile. As a stay at home mom (and co-church planter) who worked for a time as a substitute teacher and then as a Children’s Ministries Director, I haven’t “done” much with my degrees in English and History or my MA in Intercultural Studies. But I am eternally grateful for my “for me” education. It taught me to think and opened up my world. Even at a conservative christian college like Wheaton, I saw a big picture of the world and had amazing experiences that shaped me. Spending time learning philosophy, discussing literature, discovering the history of history, or studying abroad for a summer is something I would never give up. I hope my children love learning for the sake of learning and can experiece a liberal arts whole person education no matter what the cost.

Scot, I agree with you.
Rey’s three points are some of the many things I experienced in college. It was good for me, even though it was very painful at the time. Those things were part of what college did To me, and that was more important than what it did For me- not to negate the For, as that was significant. The point another commenter made about the maturing process that happens in those first few post-high school years even if one isn’t in college is important.
I am also the parent of two (and in 2007 for one school year, three) college students. My husband and I both encouraged our kids to study what they love, precisely because of our experience and both of us valuing the To more than the For (though my husband actually does work in a field directly related to his college studies). We have discussed employment options with our children wrt their areas of study, and that’s appropriate; they have to deal with the real world. I’m not sure the point is to be able to “launch” into a “dream job” right after college- it would be great, and it happens, but it’s just as likely not to happen. It’s just as likely that our kids will have to struggle a bit for a few years, just as we did. That’s perfectly ok.
Dana

Personal perspective sure does affect how one thinks on this. I’ve got seven years of post high school education in two completely different fields, so I know that side of it. I’ve also got friends who range from mechanics to coyote trappers. I won’t even pretend to think I could tell you what they would say.

Andy,
Thanks for your comment. I agree that it is largely the student’s responsibility. Reflecting on my own personal life, I know who I am becoming during my college years has come from the busiest of times. I am not asking Universities to become responsible for forming great character in their students, rather asking if being so information-focused rather than integration-focused hinders students’ character development.

“…she realized that if she learned to read she could learn anything that she wants to.”
Come on folks, only a few very exceptional people could self-study themselves into a career as an astronaut, or a physician, or an engineer. Many fields just require specialized knowledge, period. Being “well rounded” and “mature” just doesn’t make up that ground.
America is severely losing ground to other nations because students just don’t take the difficult subjects, opting instead to be “well rounded”. Encourage your kids to take math and science.

Scot,
Exactly! Very well put. Ideally, college ought to be a time where we get more training in how to think.
Last year, my daughter Jamie was a freshman at a Christian college in Oklahoma. I never dreamed that the professor who would have such a profound impact on her would be a missionary in residence from New Zealand. This gentleman was finishing his Ph.D. in New Zealand and was a church planter as well. He was very aware of the best literature regarding emergant churches, etc. He caused her to think and gave her some tools for addressing some important questions.

John M,
I’m being very tongue in cheek with some of my comments today. For some things you just have to go to college and get credentials. I agree with you. I wouldn’t go to a doctor without a good formal education.
I’m making a point that the intrinsic value of the educational institution is limited (in the sense of focused). Some things it offers you can’t get anywhere else, but many things it offers (especially in relationship to becoming mature and well rounded) you can get in plenty of other ways.
On self education, my days of formal training are over. I don’t have the time or money to sit in class anymore. Self education is what I have to do to keep my career going. My daughter is just figuring out how to do this earlier than I did. It will put her in good stead when the time comes that she needs to get credentials.

I was in college to learn to be a good visual artist – paint, draw. After 2 yrs of college I took a year off to decide what I wanted to do. In that year, I decided to go for art. So in that 3rd year of college, taking classes of different art mediums, I narrowed what I’d do to drawing and painting – those are what I’m good at. For me, other art classes were good for me. The other classes required at a liberal arts college, I just tried to get through, no interest to me – science, math, english. The second part to that, is on a college/semester time line, there really is not time to ingest the information in those classes except to learn what is required to get a passing grade.
There’s something wrong with the educational system, that early on we learn that we are there to learn what’s needed to get the needed grade. How much better I like it post schools, that I can buy the books I’m interested in and take the time to figure out what the heck the information means in life. There isn’t time in school to do that part, if we are limited by needing a grade.
When I can do so, I plan to go to a local christian college and audit graduate level classes. Audit, cuz I will be there to learn from the information and discussions, and want time to be able to chew on all of it. Not have to learn within a time frame to get a needed grade.

Then there’s my daughter, who if had gone to college, would be doing year #5, but has 4 yrs of working in a coffee shop, moved up to supervisor. I’m prejudiced, of course, but I am watching her turn into a woman vs a young woman. Something about being in the work force and the responsibility of showing up for a job daily and having to get along with co-workers and the public, has been an education and maturing process. Plus, I think, just that time of life, if one has positive influences in their life, they do mature.
Her college fund we have for her is still there. She’s quite a talented artist, what she does in her free time, learned from me her mom. My latest advice to her was to Not go to art school, she has the art part down, but get marketing and business classes. She’s trying to figure out the making sufficient money from it, part before making it a career.

#13 Carl, love it, need to pin it on my wall to get it burned into my brain : “We look to the Bible (and Jesus?) for what it can do for us, instead of what it can do to us.” Those words add to others I’ve heard lately that I think is the Spirit tapping on my shoulder. An exciting change is coming on, I think! Hallelujah!

John M #42 – “encourage kids to take math and science.” And art. or arts. It’s something how the arts are one of the first to be cut in budget cuts. It’s something how arts are seen as frivolous. But art has been with us before cavemen could count.

Becky,
Have you read GK Chesterton’s The Everlasting Man? What distinguishes humans from animals is that the cave man drew on the wall — something along that line.

I haven’t heard of that book before, Scot. So, that means artists led the development of the human race. I knew we were an important bunch!
It’s something; and now we are fascinated by those early caveman’s art. There are artists today, making a living by creating stuff that looks similar, and selling it. Homage to our ancestral line.

My college has a strong emphasis on ‘spiritual formation’ which takes priority over the academics in many cases. Evidently this emphasis is a growing trend within Christian colleges, and aligns with your point on what college does to us; instead of for us.

Back in 1996 (or so) one of the first courses I ever took in college was American Government. One of the first things the professor did was to share his perspective of the college experience. He told us there are two types of students in college: those who are there for a piece of paper and those who are there for an education. In each case the student receives a piece of paper at the conclusion. If those two students apply for the same job, in most cases the employer will be able to recognize the one who educated himself (herself) as well as the one who just went to school for the piece of paper but really did not invest in learning. In the vast majority of cases, the employer will choose the former over the latter.
This piece of advice has stuck with me for ten years, and I approach every semester with the purpose of trying to learn and grow as much as possible. I hope as I begin to move into doctoral education, I do not lose this perspective, and I hope one day to pass this advice on to other students, and then see where it takes them.

I just came on here looking for the discussion of Frei — that whole post seems to have disappeared, and I wondered what happened to it. Was it something I said?
But now I see what BeckyR has to say about cave paintings. At Lescaux there’s a 20,000-year-old drawing of a mammoth that follows the contours of the cave wall, giving it a very convincing 3-D effect. Some experts believe that the artists were trying to draw the outlines of the animal spirits who lived inside the cave walls. The drawings would then serve as portals, making it possible for the humans to make contact with the spirit world. In other words, these drawings may have been icons.

I just wanted to chime in; I feel like as an undergraduate in a Large secular school I felt like my education was “to me”. I am currently a missionary and I got good training for cross cultural ministry there. As a graduate student at a private Christian school (Biola) I felt like the education was “for me”. I think that as Christians, if we want to equip our children for living in a seular world and webelieve college is a place for “to me” education then maybe the Christian community needs to look at “commisioning” young people to secular schools. I am curious what your perspective on this is Scot as an educator at a Christian school?

Oh yeh. The thought is that the cave paintings are part of the cave men’s spiritual life. Even those hands repeated over and over. At least I don’t have to spit paint today! lol!
So, ten thousands of years from now, what are they going to say about white polyester suits? It was part of their spiritual world ? lol! Lack of adornment, must have been a pure spirit priest!

The spit-paint technique silhouettes the hand against the wall, creating a trompe l’oil, the illusion of a hand having passed into the cave wall. Maybe the handprints were portals through which the artist could pass the spirit of her drawing hand. If she could touch the primal beasts living inside the rock she would be empowered to draw them more accurately, thereby strengthening the connection between the two worlds.
And, as a matter of fact, the white suits were worn only by pure spirit priests. Dude, are you a time traveler or what?

Now I see that the theme of this post is education, so here’s another tidbit about the Cro-Magnon cave paintings. Over thousands of years and across a fairly wide geographic area, there’s a remarkable similarity and consistency of style and technique, suggesting that there must have been a loosely-affiliated network of schools for teaching iconic drawing. I wonder what the career path looked like for the graduates?

That’s too good! Marketing was especially difficult! Couldn’t take your stuff to galleries or shows!

posting late in the game….
Once again, Scot, you have accomplished in your blog what it took over 25 years for Pascarella & Terenzini to accomplish in their landmark study: How College Affects Students.
Ish – I liked the italics!

Becky R #48.
Agreed, cavemen drew before they could count. But if they hadn’t learned to count, they would still be just cavemen with great taste. I’m an art lover myself, and I agree there should be a place for it. But kids will always want to take art because it’s fun, and yes, it’s easier than calculus. They need no encouragement. Not so with math and science.

I gotta disagree on one point John (and I think we’ve gone waay off course on this art thread). You might be surprised at how many people can not draw a person and come out with something that would be accepted in the local art world. For some, to draw a person well can be as hard as calculus. Anyone can learn it, but not all do it well. Just like with math – all can learn it, not all do it well. There are some who take calculus because they think it’s fun. I have a friend with a math degree. He does with numbers, what I do with colors.

Leonardo Da Vinci.

Didn’t read all the comments, but agree with the post. A good reminder that college-as-a-means-to-a-job is one of the least questioned beliefs and most problematic ones when it comes to what most institutions of higher learning think they’re about.

I remember reading somewhere that in the early stages of the industrial revolution there was a united effort to, in effect, standardize public education not so much as to truly educate and form people, but to “dumb down” people so that they would be content in boring factory jobs. Too much education, it was thought, would produce an unhappy, activist population, which government and industry heads didn’t want. That could be part of the cause of the “education for a job” mentality.
I bounced out of two different undergrad schools before finding a happy home in a third, from which I graduated. The first was a big state university, the second a small alternative college, and the third a private Ivy League women’s college.
It was in the third that I finally discovered what real education is: training of the mind to think through, analyze, and verbalize in clear writing virtually any subject, see the connections between things, get to the deeper implications of things, and identify how they relate to other things. It was as hard as any athletic training I’ve done, forcing my brain beyond its usual limits, treating it as a muscle to be developed in all kinds of ways, but it really paid off.
Didn’t matter what the subject of my degree was; I’ve used those thinking skills profitably ever since in every setting I’ve found myself in, and use them now as a Christian studying and writing about Christianity. I wish every educational institution could deliver such training to its students – we’d be living in a very different world if they did.