Jesus Creed

Jesus Creed

Loving the Difficult

posted by xscot mcknight | 2:20am Wednesday November 15, 2006

Recently I received the following letter from a pastor; let’s all look this situation over, ponder it and pray over it, and think about what to do. Those of you who feel prompted, tell us what you think the pastor should do. I’ve edited slightly.
Scot…I just finished reading your chapter on John in The Jesus Creed. I’m wondering if you can give me some input in applying this.
I have a man in our church who has a long negative history with the Church (he’s been through a variety of churches). His response to his experiences is to set about writing his own book in which he points out all of the faults of Christians all over the place. In addition, he claims to receive “revelations” from God, and is certain that he has figured it all out. His approach is, “you prove that I’m wrong.” I have read his material and it is full of hurt, wounds and error from a orthodox context. He’s not at all orthodox.
He and his family came to church based on an invitation, and within a few months made it known that he wanted to teach. He isn’t interested in entering into community, and is actively disengaged from our body. I find him to be very abrasive and arrogant, but I know that much of this comes from his wounds. (Wounds which he claims to have received healing from.) He shows up at my office about once a month to talk theology, but basically he just wants to tell me what he thinks. It is quite clear he isn’t interested in dialogue.
I find myself turned-off by him, but I want to love him as Jesus would if he were me. How do I do that?



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James Petticrew

posted November 15, 2006 at 4:33 am


Sadly, I think all of us who have pastored for any length of time will have encountered such people. The sad news from my experience and observation is that such situations seldom end well, there is a reason why people like this have a bad history with the churches they have attended. For what it is worth my attitude is that I have to balance love for the individual with love for the community. People like the one you have described have the potential to disrupt and destroy communities of faith, there are times when love of the community must mean confronting such threats. If I was a betting man, I would lay some money on the fact that his monthly sessions with you on theology are accompanied by sessions with any one who will listen on the weaknesses of your theology.
It is advice that I myself would not want to hear, but my advice to you is out of love for this man and for your congregation you must stand up to him and confront him when necessary. Jesus without a doubt loved the religous leaders of his day, but he also confronted them, the same could be said of Paul in his letters when he is often confronting wrong belief and wrong action.
I am in the process of church planting and have been thinking about what to do with similar people who think that a church plant is the ideal place to be a “big fish in a small pond” I got some excellent advice from another church planter who explained that no one is allowed in his congregation to lead or teach until they have spent 6 months helping set up, clean toilets and clear up for the weekend events, that way he explained only those with a true servant spirit gain a place of prominence. I suspect if you suggest toilet cleaning as a ministry to your new attender you won’t see him him for dust.



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Ted Gossard

posted November 15, 2006 at 4:40 am


James, Thanks for your excellent comment, which I find helpful on this.



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kent

posted November 15, 2006 at 8:46 am


For the health of the church this person needs to be confronted, which is not easy to do, or quarentined, again not easy. Knowledge is a weapon and grace is non-existent. H. B. London calls those people “joy suckers”, who come and suck all the joy from your heart. He is right on.
Also do not confront this person alone, but with some of the leadership of the church – after prayer. This may skip the first step in Matthew 18, but you need witnesses and strength. Always be gracious and calm. Which going to be hard. You may have to confront him moe than once. And he leaves he will “skunk” his way out of church.
Your welcome.



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BeckyR

posted November 15, 2006 at 9:10 am


I tend to write from personal expeience. I have been part of a house church for 29 yrs. WE have no one who is seen to be the person in charge. It is expected we all are responsible for the health of the body. We all have gifts and are free to use them. There is great freedome to speak up in our gathering. So, that said, if someone is disrupting the church, it is up to someone or someone’s in the church to handle it.
We have had 2 difficult people bringing difficult experiences to our body. One woman was in counseling for childhood incest and emotionally falling apart and I empathized with the anger comsuming her from where she was in the therapy process, but she spewed it on us, blaming us for this and that. WE;d all had enough of it and talked of how to handle her. ONe meeting she was spewing and up till then no one had confronted her. I’d had enough of it and to each of her string of accusations, I said “I think that’s about your issues.” Over and over and over. It was firmly said but with kindness. She didn’t come back.
The other was a man who showed up in our group, as many do show up and check us out. He didnt have enough time in the group to have earned the responsibility of guiding what we should be doing. He was a controller and how he wanted to see us operate was not out of what was best for the body, but he wanted to be able to run things. Turned out he was abusive at home. We met with him several times to hear his views then counter them with our understanding of scripture. When it became apparent he would not have a place of being in charge, he left.
Both instances, the poeple were handled firmly and with kindness. We held up a boundary of where we wouldn’t let them cross. We didn’t tell him he had control issues, we just didn’t let him get away with trying to control. For the woman, it was for her best to show her that her venom was not about us but about her anger and where it came from. Hopefully she can better take ownership of her anger.



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Don

posted November 15, 2006 at 9:53 am


I totally agree with Kent above. This person is spiritually toxic and will consume all the energy you direct his way. He needs deep healing and love, but should be given no authority without coming under the discipline and care of the body. After pastoring over 25 years, I sadly realize this type of person “shows up” in every church with some sad regularity.



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becklesnwu

posted November 15, 2006 at 10:11 am


I think that most pastors I know who have been pastoring for a long time would say that this person should NOT be allowed to preach. Those who do not love Jesus’s bride (the church), even the parts they don’t like as much, should not be allowed to shepherd it. I would explain to this man that this is a rule of thumb that the church puts to all people who wish to teach and lead, regardless of their knowledge of theology and skills in preaching.
As suggested by others in this post, I agree that this person needs to be watched vigilantly for their ability to be toxic to the community. If they insult the community to your face, I would say that you need to remind them that Christ commands us to love the church as he loves the church, in spite of its imperfections, continuously praying for it and striving to LOVE IT into change.
If there is an opening for it, I also wonder if it would be worth asking this person to talk about what has happened to them. It is amazing to me how much asking tough questions can disarm people. I knew someone once who had the same story: every church she had been a part of she had been wounded by, and she hated it. She started coming to our small group somehow. I had a conversation with her once about her dislike for the church and how she just “hadn’t found what she was looking for.” So I thought I’d just ask the obvious question: “So, it seems like you’ve got a pretty idea what you’re NOT looking for. So what ARE you looking for?” She paused and didn’t say anything for a while. Finally she said, “Maybe I’m looking for this housegroup.” We had listened to her grievances, we had given her a place to be loved even with all of her rough exteriors, and in the end, someone who hated the church admitted that she might be prepared to give it a chance anyways. It’s amazing what healing can come from genuinely asking questions and listening- it’s like drawing sap out of an old wound.



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adam

posted November 15, 2006 at 10:16 am


“I find myself turned-off by him, but I want to love him as Jesus would if he were me. How do I do that?”
I struggle with this. Jesus was always honest with the people he dealt with, though he did sometimes bury his honest responses in parable or wit. I don’t see him just smiling and nodding, though, and with the arrogant (the Pharisees in particular) he is often abrasive and confrontational. I’m sure many of them were hurting, scared of what his brand of religion might mean, but he still refused to pull punches with them. And I’ll be honest with you–he makes me uncomfortable at times. I kind of wish he would make an effort to be a little more diplomatic.
Of course, he was God and he knew these men’s hearts. I am not God. I don’t know anyone else’s heart. I could rail on those who seem to me to be like the Pharisees, but the risk I run is turning into a Pharisees, myself. Which leaves the question thoroughly unanswered.
Here’s what I think: I think we follow the principle that Jesus followed while acknowledging that we do not, like him, have to privilege of knowing another’s heart and so the action main not be quite as confrontational. I think we need to be honest. When we see arrogance and hurt, close-mindedness and pain, we need to find loving ways to communicate that in the context of relationship. We don’t do others favors by glossing over their condition or pretending to not notice. At the same time, our response needs to be seasoned with humility and love, always remembering that we, too, have been hurting and arrogant at some point.
The biggest part of this, for me, is the relational component. I can’t see into another’s heart, but the closest I can come to that is to enter into relationship. From this position, I might see the other differently, or he might see things about me I do not see about myself. And I will have a kind of credibility that no title or authority can match–the credibility of love.



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Benjamin Bush Jr

posted November 15, 2006 at 11:03 am


Paul instructed Timothy to always be “apt to teach.” When dealing with a person such as described, one of the most helpful methods of teaching is through questions. Properly phrased questions many times cause another to address certain issues and come up with answers that his authoritarian attitude sometimes misses. At the same time, a biblical position can be arrived at without the other person feeling that he was taught.
This non judgmental way puts the responsibility to answer questions and arrive at the proper conclusion upon the one being questioned, which, ultimately, is where it should be. It has the tendency to remove any accusations which may be hurled by the person questioned.
Personally, I have experienced people drawing conclusions that were totaly different than their initial dogmatic pronouncement. It’s amazing what a little biblical thought wiil do!
Of course, what I suggest is nothing more than that, a suggestion. And only one. I have found it to be disarming when dealing with certain situations.



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Dana

posted November 15, 2006 at 1:18 pm


Hi Scot and folks: “How do I do that?” Like Porcupines making love? Very cautiously, and prayerfully- looking for some guidance that is very personal from Jesus. We were in New Orleans before Katrina, a lady was a street liver, she was also, according to everyone on the corner, dangerous and would “cut you if you messed with her stuff.”We had extra food, so we took it to her, she cussed me out as we got out of the car to leave the food with her in the name of Jesus, and said she didn’t want the “*&$%&^ food…” but…one of the guys standing there said, “leave it man, she’ll eat it, if she don’t we will.” We thanked him, asked him if he was going to the mission tomorrow, he said maybe, and we parted hoping to see him there. Did we do more damage than good? Folks are sometimes hurting so bad that in trying to get them past the hurt we do more harm than good- HERE IT COMES-”But”- (ya knew that was comin’ didn’t ya) my sense of the Holy Spirit in me is that we have to try? We don’t understand all the urgings and groanings within us, and my sense is that they exist to a lesser or even perhaps stronger degree within those who are hurting- and, we have to love them back. Not easy- which Christ said we should celebrate- he said if it’s easy what do you need me for? And we need Jesus, but moreso, the hurting need Jesus..and sometimes can’t see that.



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aaron

posted November 15, 2006 at 4:07 pm


I have to remind myself daily to not be the man in the letter. I don’t want to be that guy. I used to be him all the time, however I had people in my life that loved me enough to talk with me and help me see what others do.
Not finished by any stretch of the imagination but I’ve got a good start.



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Doug wilson

posted November 15, 2006 at 5:32 pm


Scot:
I’ve been there, and have no magic answers. But I would suggest (1) that since the pastor honestly acknowledges that “I find myself turned-off by him, but I want to love him as Jesus would if he were me. How do I do that?” that the pastor pray for insight, for the ability to somehow connect with this gentlemen, and, perhaps even more difficult, for the capacity to love him. However abrasive he is, to paraphrase Jesus’ gracious interaction with the undoubtedly abrasive and unlikable Zacchaeus, “this man, too, is a child of God” (Luke 19:9-10). He has probably been wounded in community; he can only be healed in community. Is it possible he could be invited into relationship?
(2) It would be fair to say to him, “I have been listening to your thoughts and concerns, with courtesy and respect, for some time now. Would you now be open to listening to some of mine?” If he could be helped to move from diatribe to dialogue, perhaps some of the things which have wounded him in the past could be addressed. Possibly by listening to his story, the pastor could help him turn the anger which flows from his pain into prayer.
(3) If he is not open to dialogue, which he seems not to be, you are in trouble. Paul is rather blunt about this in Titus 3:10: “Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.” I’m no Paul, but it does seem clear that if no meaningful dialogue is taking place then at some point there is no point in continuing. Jesus also advises us basically to move on “if anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words” (Matthew 10:14 and parallels).



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jinny

posted November 16, 2006 at 1:39 am


I would ask for a spirit of willingness–willingness to learn from the current leaders and teachers (as a way to correct his unorthodox views). Also a willingness to be vulnerable–by stepping into relationship with the community (coming to more than Sunday worship; i.e. Bible study, fellowship?) and let down the defensive walls, to not be so cynical? (it seems to me like the criticism is a defense tactic, the philosophy that ‘an attacked person will be too defensive to attack back in the same manner’). It needs to be made clear that you are his friend, not his enemy, but also that in his responses to what he disagrees with, there needs to be a willingness to understand, so as not to throw out the baby with the bath water–as you will try to understand him and his views.
Then, if there is evidence growth, of your church’s teachings and the friendship of church members really getting through to this man, ask for a willingness to teach under supervision, perhaps even team-teaching with someone trustworthy (rather than leaping straight to unchecked solo teaching).



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Patrick Lowthian

posted November 16, 2006 at 4:14 am


Another relevant Scripture is Matthew 7:6, “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.” Dallas Willard treats this text well in The Divine Conspiracy. He basically says that we have to be very, very careful who we attempt to correct or even counsel, because very few people are in a position or of such character to hear us without attacking us.



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Jim Martin

posted November 16, 2006 at 12:28 pm


Been there. I once had a guy who wrote sermons. Lots of them. Black notebooks full of them. When I first met him at our church, he gave me his name and said, “I’m controversial.” “Uhhh–ok.”
He saw himself as being one of the few who discovered the truth. After church, he would walk to his car carrrying his Bible, one of his sermon books (he never preached at this church but he seemed to always have one with him) and lighting up a Camel. I smile as I write this but it wasn’t anything I smiled about back then.
Bottom line: I am very leary of self-appointed preachers/teachers etc. Somewhere in this mix ought to be some godly confrontation. Myself–I would not give my time to regularly talk theology with a man with such arrogance unless we had some very clear boundaries. Is this going to be give and take or a monologue? Again–I guess I am back to the need for candor, confrontation, etc.



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