I say, “Amen” to what you, Scot are saying. And I stand with you “Karen” as one who needs the words and help of God in Christ every day. Life is beyond me, but only as I pause and take one step at a time, or even one breath at a time and look to God in Jesus, I see him answer in wholistic, life-oriented ways, but in the way of God in Christ. And I begin more and more to see myself in the ongoing story of God in Christ.
I lift up a prayer for you now…..and will be praying as I remember to!

This letter highlights something I think is endemic in some parts of the church:the feeling that intellectual certitude is the same as spiritual maturity.When we raise people, wittingly or unwittingly,with this one-sided intellectualist approach to the Faith, I can see such crises overwhelming people.The truth of the matter is that often our “head” may convince us that we are at a place in our journey that in terms of real knowledge of God we are not at experientially.Evangelicals need the ministry of good spiritual directors to help people bridge this gap.The definition of a theologian in the Eastern Patristic Fathers was one who prayed, who had their heart truly stretched and strengthened to commune with the living God in a deep way,a cruciform way.This is still the benchmark.

great discussion. I would point out to Karen as well that it seems that we equate “working for the Lord” (ie. doing ministry stuff) as our relationship with Him too often in the church. I have come to realize that God doesn’t really want or need my money, or ministry, or any of those things. Yes, we are called to be stewards and to live out our faith; but God can get by without my stuff. I am not the be all and end all. What he really wants is a relationship with me. That is humbling and awe inspiring to me. Way too many are burning out in the church because they are working their tails off for the Kingdom but couldn’t actually tell you the last time they sat before the Lord to wait on and listen to Him because they “don’t have time”. And the enemy loves it! My heart and prayers go out to all of the Karens out there. Many of us were right there ourselves. Don’t let this be a pit you never climb out of spiritually. Theology and doctrine have an important place, but they can never replace a relationship with the Creator of the Universe.

Karen,
Scot’s advice is real wisdom.
Let me just add: Your questions about faith and interpretations are important. It can be a good thing that they have surfaced and that you’re not ignoring them. Good may not equate being comfortable, but a journey towards God is not supposed to be. Not knowing if you believe in God anymore could be positive, if the belief you had was not founded on anything other than feelings or experiences. In fact, in recognizing our hypocrisy God might turn out to be on our side. But where does that leave us? There are some sufficient answers to honest questions, so don’t give up in seeking them out. A move towards a real and authentic faith is a move in the right direction, although it can seem as if it’s a lonely journey and that we’re on the path alone. However, there are many others struggling with the same lack of reality and insufficient answers. It has been a privilige to work with many of those and to see God, over time, bring them through to a new and credible faith that is sustainable in the real world.
Have good courage. Our prayers are with you.

Karen, I will be praying for you that you come out of this with faith that can move mountains. You are not alone. And what Scot said is very true, that when we come to these places, we must keep communing with God. I went through a similar experience a few years ago, and it wasn’t until I let God work in me that I came out of it. It’s not easy, and I felt like I was slipping away and that I would never come back, but God was gracious and loved me through that time–doubts, worries, and all! I pray that you find someone that will walk with you through this.

I would rather spend time with someone who is honest and transparent and doesn’t insist on having all the answers, than someone who pretends they know all.
During one hard time, I really connected with Job. God met him in a dark hour and their relationship changed, even though God didn’t give Job the exact answers he was looking for. Something about God’s response in Job 39 speaks to me. Something about the life cycles of the mountain goats – they mate, raise their young, go on about life as they have for generations – God watches it all and I don’t have a clue where or when it is all happening. Just thinking about it puts Todd Agnew’s song in my head “Where were you?” from his “Reflections of Something” album.
I believe that God is real and that he will meet you. I am sorry for the hardship in the meantime. I hope that you find some friends that will walk through this with you. I hope you stay honest. I hope you walk away from this with a relationship with God that ministers to others in a new and powerful way.

Karen,
I was reading a book by Marva Dawn, who is a friend and colleague of Eugene Peterson. She confessed to Peterson that “her prayer life was a failure.” He said these words to her which were balm to my soul … “You don’t have to worry about how much of a failure you are at prayer … Jesus is always praying for you. Rest in that.”
So … in your darkness and loneliness, I will pray today that you will remember that both the Son and the Spirit pray for you; in fact, the Spirit interprets your groanings to the Father. So, even if you can’t find words when you turn to face God … you have interceders already facing Him for you.
peace, my friend.

Thanks for posting this, Scot.
Karen, Scot hit it on the head…as crazy as it sounds to our brains, these “thin” places are good places.
Oswald Chambers said, “I feel sorry for the Christian who doesn’t have something in the circumstances of his life that he wishes were not there.”
And then, as we rise out of the wreck, we understand in a new light what our brother Paul meant when he said, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. For as we share abundantly in Christ’s sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too.” (II Corin. 1:3-5 ESV)
Here is a poem birthed out of my own “wreck.”
Up out of the wreck I arise,
A weary soul with tear-reddened eyes,
Yet somehow to my own surprise,
I’m much stronger than I’ve been before.
These trials that I prayed against,
That robbed me of all reason and sense,
Have broken through my final defense,
Allowing you to redeem and restore.
Up out of the depths of despair,
My question still echoes, “Do you care?”
Pressed down by the burdens I bear.
I forget you endured suffering and shame.
Rising above my muffled groan,
I hear you whisper, “You’re not alone.”
And now my soul utters a new intone,
Of sweet notes birthed by sorrow and pain.
Up out of the wreck I stand,
An altered and awakened man,
Trusting when I don’t understand,
I abandon my need to be in control.
And now I find I can comfort those
Whose souls can find no rest or repose,
I whisper softly, “Jesus knows,”
This wreck has shaped and molded my soul.
I am praying for you, sister.

Hi Karen,
Congratulations for taking time out in teaching something you do not believe in. Many teach, possibly believe, and do no ‘do’. The latter is the worst place to be.
I was once given Bertrant Russel’s book to read in my early walk as a christian. Oh the void and emptiness and blank feeling I experienced while still teaching my sunday school class. But I challenged God, for the zth time, to prove Himself, and He did! It is a long and inexplicit story of how this was done and was p[robably unique to me.
Challenges and temptations are always going to be there and so is God. He loves challenges, read Isaiah. Get back up and go on as many who have gone before have done. Staying the course is what it is all about. I guess we will understand it ‘by and by’.

Scot,
Thank you for sharing biblical wisdom.
The only thing I would add would be with your comment “sometimes young aspiring leaders are trying to ‘save the world’ and so are eager to enter into God’s macro-story.” I agree, but I also think sometimes we enter God’s marco-story at the expense of His “micro-story” of our own lives. I know I have been guilty (and I have seen others as well) of focusing all my attention/passion on the “cause,” be it AIDS, poverty, etc. as you mention or doing the “work of ministry/church” and completely miss companionship with Christ. I am afraid that sometimes we can lose our faith when we get caught up in the mechanics.

Karen, if you’re interested, here’s my story
Why I don’t go to church anymore
I would say – go back to basics. Find out who you are and what you love. Then ask, how can I do what I love? How can I make my life make a difference?
Take lots of time to heal from whatever you need to heal from and then see where you are. Reject all notions of a pressuring demanding God and believe that if God does exist and is good, he must be ok with you taking all the time you need to sort things out.
I don’t even know if I believe in God but I believe that if I do he is the sort of God who is happy if I am doing my best to love other people.
Let it be about what you do, not what you know.
Let go of Legalistic Superficial God who lets bad people into heaven and shuts good people out because the bad people are carrying a ‘get out of jail free card’ which the good ones have turned down because they can’t handle a God who is that superficial in his decisions.
Be yourself, have fun, enjoy life and trust that doing so is honoring to any God who does exist.
Seek to have a heart will make God happy to look at (if he exists). Not because it’s perfect but because you kept caring even though the crisis of faith.
Good luck…

Karen,
I want to emphasize Scot’s last bit of advice. In a world in which any belief is difficult to sustain, I’ve discovered that Jesus is a rock which sinks deep. As I’ve moved into the Christian faith, I’ve tried on an array of beliefs. Many of those have been swept away by the currents of deconstruction. But I’ve held onto whatever bit of Jesus I could and gradually I’ve discovered other rocks around him. As Scot said, he makes the thick places thin and pierces the veil between heaven and earth.
Read the gospels, not for knowledge or information, but to be brought into the reality of the presence of Jesus. There is much we can learn from the gospels, but they transcend other books. There is a sense in which we meet Jesus in the gospels.
As Scot said, love your neighbor. Remember that they have been created in the image and likeness of the God revealed in Jesus. I believe it was C.S. Lewis who said that next to the blessed eucharist itself, our neighbor is the holiest object presented to our senses.
Even if you are not prepared to join with a group of Christians, find a place where you can regularly take the Eucharist or Communion or Lord’s Supper — whatever you call it. If you are not sure where you can go, I would suggest a church in the Anglican Communion (Episcopal in the US). It doesn’t matter whether or not you agree with them or even know what you believe, they have the Eucharist every week and a table open to all who have been baptized in our Lord. (No denominational spin here. I’m a member of a Southern Baptist church myself. But I’m unable to recommend the present infrequent and shallow observance of the Lord’s Supper in my denomination to one who clearly needs the tangible connection to our Lord.) This is a mystery of our faith. Jesus meets us in the bread and wine. This becomes one of the thin places where God’s past and future converge in our present.
Most importantly, act. Another mystery of our faith is that if you seek Jesus, he will find you. But if you wait for your questions to be resolved, you may never stop waiting.
May the shalom of the Messiah flow through you my sister.

Hi Karen:
In The Divine Hours, the Call to Prayer this morning was from Psalm 55:17ff. It is as follows:
I will call upon God* and the LORD will deliver me. In the evening, in the morning, and at the noonday, I will complain and lament,* and he will hear my voice. He will bring me safely back . . . God, who is enthroned of old, will hear me.
I hope you can, as I have, make this prayer your own. May God’s love grow real to you.

Chalk another casuality up for McLaren, his books are potentially devasting to struggling and shaky believers.

Years ago a book by another Scott called “The Road Less Travelled” was dismissed by the Christian community. But that dismissal was static, because the Jesus creed community is within that book’s thesis about spiritual stages as far as comments to Karen are concerned.

Here’s some simple things that have helped me Karen, and might help you:
*Reading the gospels with intent of discovering Jesus.
*Falling in love with Jesus over and over again
*Reading Psalms out loud
*Reading books by Philip Yancey such as “Disappointment with God”
*Going for walks in the woods
*Accepting that all of us are very flawed (cracked Eikons), and that the church is just a group of flawed people.
*Realizing that “we over estimate what can be done in one year and under estimate what can be done in twenty years” (Rick Warren).
*Separate my circumstances from God. God is not my circumstances. God is not the ministry I am involved with.

Karen, thanks for being so genuine. All I can say is I can relate a lot to what you said and are experiencing. I hope you were as encouraged by Scot’s words as I was, especially in his response about being the paralytic in relation to Jesus–being the recepient of the ministry, not the minister. I wish you all the best.

Hi Karen. I agree with everyone else here who has said you are not alone. Last year I went through something similar. I felt very alone and feared I was losing my faith. But I agree with Scott. Ride though the thick place facing God. When you come out you will see how close God was to you during that time. A wise older woman I get together with often told me that times like those you’re going through are leading you to maturity. She’s right. I just read Leaving Church by Barbara Brown Taylor. It’s beautifully written, and I found myself relating to much of her experience. I’d recommend it to you as well.

Thanks Scot for sound biblical insights into Karen’s losses. It is helpful to all of us who have traversed similar terrain as Karen.
Karen,
Mother Theresa found herself in a similar situation, with God being absent, after a two-year sense of his closeness. She found him again in the world around her (Scot’s micro level). Loving someone near as if Jesus were these people she loved. Jesus still appeals to you. Go there and stay there. You are in safe hands.
The loss you feel and experience is common to man as long as this life lasts. Your pain isolates you but take comfort in the reality that those who write to you have been there. Walter Brueggemann talks about disorientation (a movement in a circle of life that moves from orientation, to disorientation, to reorientation of faith) where God seems to be distant and seems to be hiding so we may do the seeking we need to do. Scot has a rewording of this speaking of it in terms of finding Shalom.
When I get to where you are, Karen, I accept my loss. I mourn it. I cry out in lament for the losses I feel. I have many a psalmist on my side expressing for me the reality in me. Then I use their words to believe again, practicing my way back to faith. A prayer that sustains me in times like these is the Jesus prayer: “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner”.
My prayer is that the joy of Shalom will be upon you again and again as you cry out “my Lord and my God.”

Karen,
I stand with you in the terrible silence of not knowing, believing that it is in God that we are standing.

Karen,
Scot has wisdom here… so take it in.
And I would add… you’re not alone. Many, maybe even most, in ministry have traversed simular spiritual paths. (Though not enough of us admit it publicaly) Don’t run away from this, keep walking into, and through, it. These are the times that you will look back on later and will provide an anchor to your future faith. And if you continue in ministry (which I pray you do), you will find you have experiences and resources that you didn’t before… that you can relate to the depths of people’s pain and doubt in new and more profound ways.

Hi Karin, the place where you are, is your’s alone. It can be dark and lonely. But it is also a safe place to be. You will probably challange everything. Who God is and even if He exists. Who you are. Who or what the church is. It is a good place in a wonderful journey. I leave you with a quote.
Where there is no longer any opportunity for doubt, there is no longer any opportunity for faith either. — Paul Tournier
We will be praying with you.

Scot, this is amazingly good advice. I ressonate a lot with Karen, having been in a similar place for the past few years. I think sometimes that in the midst of Christian doubt it is paradoxically comforting and frustrating to get this kind of advice from our sisters and brothers. On one hand something deep inside us recognizes the truth of our need to press into God, and yet on the other hand is the nagging question of how to press into God when that is the very heart of our struggle to begin with. It can be hard to accept encouragement from other believers when we feel we have more in common with unbelievers than believers, at least on the surface. It can feel that all our faith is permeated with doubt. But on the flip side, all our doubts are permeated with faith because we refuse the the simplistic answers that seem more like covering our eyes and ears to the problem. When faith seems dishonest, the only way to get to authentic faith is through the tunnel of doubt. For Karen and I there doesn’t seem to be any easier way to true faith but grapple with our doubts head-on, not letting go until you have gotten real answers. If, like Jacob, we walk with a limp when it is over, so be it.

Craig,
Just got back from playing golf with a pastor. So, I’ve been wondering about the discussion and it has been excellent and encouraging, except for this one comment. It disturbs me to hear a comment like this to a young, struggling Christian. What can be the motive for such a comment?
I’m not one to offer unswerving support for Brian McLaren’s books, but I find your comment a cheap criticism of Brian and an insensitive remark to make to a student who probably finds his books asking the questions she has. I’m sorry to have to say this, but I must.

Dear Karen, and Scot, et al.
There is much wisdom here, and perhaps many Karen, many share your “thick space.” I pray that it is, in all actuality, a very thin space.
I know you’re not alone. As a pastor for more than 20 years, much of my life, faith, Biblical understanding and even my ‘knowledge of God’ was shaken and changed when, three years ago I discovered that a good friend of mine, one of my assistant pastors, had been molesting my daughter for several years. I don’t know why it happened. I don’t know why my daughter must continue to deal with another’s sin. I do not know why my wife cannot move beyond fear. I do not know why many in my congregation were so judgmental. I do not know why. Karen, I still not only do not have all the answers, I am not too sure I have any of them.
In the absence of answers, there has only been Jesus. Yet, I have had to start from scratch to get to know Him all over again as the Jesus I had come to know, was not a Jesus that could have allowed that to happen. But, it did happen, and God has allowed this circumstances and shakings for purposes beyond my ability to grasp. If Jesus really is who He claims to be, then it is a sure bet that He is right, and I am wrong. I have long thought that this watershed of seasons for me, my family, the Body here is a ‘thin space.’ But even after all this time I still can’t quite just look “back on it,” not completely anyway.
This one thing I do know, without the hope of this one Truth, Jesus and Him crucified, having also been under great pressure far beyond my ability to endure, so that I despaired even of life, I would not be able to write you now. I really have resolved to know just one thing, and that has made all the difference.
I’ll be praying for you.
Scot, bless you for your grace and wisdom.

Scot,
I agree whole-heartedly to the sentiment in your comment #24. And we have to be able to ask questions and confront concerns and doubts. McLaren – and others – are popular and “potentially devastating” because they touch a nerve of common concerns and questions. There is a cathartic release – as in I am not alone – as well as a wellspring of doubt when one realizes that perhaps simple answers don’t exist. The books are not the problem – they are a symptom of a deeper problem.
The solution is not to avoid the questions – because this simply leads to crisis or withdrawal – but to face the questions and issues head on. We need to provide a safe environment for all people – but especially young people – to think through and talk through all of these kinds of issues. The advice to find a wise person who will listen is great – but one of those things far easier said than done.

Karen,
I want to join Scot and others who have read the depths of your struggle with ministry, God, and reality. Even though it may not feel like it in the immediate moment, you’re a great place to bring out what has been buried in your heart–it’s authentic, and authentic dialogue can happen between God and you, as well as you and others. Having a friend who will just listen as Scot said, without jumping in, helps; but your letter to Scot reflects the move for authentic dialogue in the midst of unknown territory for you is a good step.
It is our temptation in our culture to trivialize or immediately solve the deep soul struggles of others who have faced same questions and doubts you are facing. But you are not alone; others have gone before you.

Karen,
Craig said: “Chalk another casualty up for McLaren, his books are potentially devastating to struggling and shaky believers.”
n light of Craig’s assessment of Brian’s books: I want to add that the opposite of faith is not doubt. God knows we need doubt and many of his servants doubted. The opposite of faith is rebellion: A willful rejection of the love of God and the love of others.

Karen, and Scot, and Craig,
My daughter, who just turned 18 yesterday, would say that reading McLaren’s A New Kind of Christian … has done more to encourage her connection with Christ than almost anything else. McLaren spoke very clearly to some of the absurd things my daughter easily discerns as hypocrisy and arrogance within the church. To hear someone put words to her suspicions was so helpful to her. To have someone continually point her back to Jesus was “the ballgame.”
Reading McLaren is not “the problem” … some might say that the truth of what he unveils, especially in regard to the church and to American Christianity, truly is.
You are not alone, Karen.

I have went through similiar times as Karen and I know many others who have as well. Scripture is filled with similiar experiences and some of the Psalms can be downright depressing. Whenever I hear of these experiences or experience them myself I am reminded of a sermon by Ravi Zacharias concerning senseless violence and tragedy. Our temptation is to turn from God but Ravi asks “but what do we turn to?” What a good question, what do we turn to?
I am reminded of Peter’s reply when a lot of disciples were forsaking Jesus due to his harsh words: “Lord, where else can we go, only you have the words of life? You are the Holy One.”
It is because of those time of wrestling in doubt that I can look anyone straight in the eye and say “I believe” and “I know.”
May God bless and keep this struggling lamb.

“I would also advise you to find a wise person who will listen to your story. Someone who doesn’t give you “answers” but “ears” that listen so well that you are drawn out into a fuller realization of both who you are and what our faith is all about.”

This is probably the most important piece of advice you gave her. We need more spiritual guides, people who can take people like Karen by the hand and help them through these periods of questioning with patience and grace. I didn’t have anyone to help me through my process (though McLaren’s books partially filled that role for me – albeit in a rather one-sided way) but I’ve had the privilege of being that guide for a few other people since then. It’s so vital.

Karen–many prayers, including mine, are with you. More important, as others have noted, God himself is praying with and for you–even (and maybe especially?) when you don’t feel it. In particular, I pray for peace for you.
A prayer for you: Hold me Jesus.
It strikes me that lots of times are prayers are as much us reminding ourselves what is already happening as anything else, but that is ok–I need lots of reminding.
A few other thoughts (or facts, as I like to call them)to hold on to: 1) God loves you. More than we can guess. 2) God’s will for you is ultimately for good, great, awesome things (but our path there, through this broken, messed up world, can be pretty rough). 3) God is bigger than our doubts. 4) The Liar is sneaky–more subtle than all the other animals.
Finally, I can’t help but think about Frederick Buechner. He says Doubt is the ants in the pants of faith–they keep it alive and moving. That may seem flip in the valley you are in now, but it helps me to remember that doubt is not the ulitmate enemy, and actually can move us in positive ways.
Don’t despair, sister! You aren’t as alone as you feel. You are with God, circled by a great crowd of believers, and lifted up by more of us–struggling, broken, confused, striving, but ultimately in submission–fellow travelers
May God’s love, grace and peace be made known to you today.
Steve

Scot,
Great thing you’ve done, here, brother!
Karen,
I am prickling with expectance for you, sister. As strange as that might seem, this “thin place” you have entered is a spiritual passage zone. Scott Peck has been mentioned earlier, and his spiritual maturity stages have you right on target! It is only when we are willing to enter the skeptical stage and look at everything and make it all our own (not something we have “inherited” from parents or pastors or camp) that we can move beyond…where the journey to maturity starts in earnest.
God is not afraid of your doubts, Karen. Don’t be afraid of asking your questions. I remember a very dark time in my life when it was all I could do to function–eat, sleep–and it was as if I was in a deep hole…the kind that only the “sun at high noon” could reach me with its warmth. But the sun does reach high noon every day…and at those times, I could see that Jesus was there in the hole with me…just being there and listening, usually in the dark. And during those long nine months, it was as if each day at “high noon” the pit was a little bit shallower…allowing in more light for longer periods of time.
Until one day, I could see over the rim…and it wasn’t long until I could get my hands firmly on the ground…and Jesus gave me a “boost” and we were out.
So, I will join my prayers with so many others here…and pray that you will remember that we are all there with you and Jesus down in your pit.
Yes, expectancy…that’s the word for this prickling feeling….
Blessings,

What’s the opposite of worship? Blasphemy?
If worship is saying how great it is and if blasphemy is the opposite, isn’t it blasphemy to imply God is so useless that he can’t stop Brian McLaren ruining lots of peoples’ faith?
I never understand why people who say they believe in an Omnipotent God are afraid of books written by humans like Brian McLaren. I guess Satan can retire now Brian is on the scene…

Helen,
Good to hear from you again! We linked up briefly during the Mark Driscoll debate, when you offered a safe haven from the people angrily attacking women who were upset with him.
Yes, I too have experienced McLaren depicted as the devil incarnate and from sincere, well-meaning people, but really, it does get out of hand.
Karen,
My prayers are with you! God sometimes shoves us where he needs us and it can be painful. At least that is my experience.

Karen is certainly not alone in her experiences. Many Christians have gone through the same kinds of thoughts, experiences, and feelings. I know I have.
It’s common today to hear certain enclaves within the Christian community advocating the embrace of doubt and uncertainty. I wonder how that plays into people’s lives, especially the lives of those experiencing a period similar to that which Karen is traversing. Is the embrace of doubt and uncertainty helpful or hurtful?
Coram Deo

Karen,
Much good advice here I think. To look for a wise friend or advisor, one who will listen and engage in honest dialog outside of “safe” boundaries, is excellent advice. Analytical and skeptical thinking is an inherent trait for many of us and the move toward authentic dialog is an essential part of growth. In the absence of a wise friend or advisor, or with the help of such a person, read widely, balancing viewpoints and thinking critically. Many smart people have gone before – through 2000 years of church history, 400 years of Protestantism, and 150 years of conflict with secularism in the west. I would guess that you’ve only begun to scratch the surface, and many of us are thrown for a loop by the fact that nothing is as simple as we were taught – no matter what tradition one is from.
Phil,
There is a difference, I think, between embracing doubt and uncertainty and facing doubt and uncertainty. Embracing doubt is tantamount to surrender; running from doubt and uncertainty only makes things worse in the long run; facing doubt and uncertainty can and often does lead to mature growth and real faith.

scot
i have really enjoyed reading your blogs recently. i am kinda new to the whole emerging thing. but i am in a desert of types and have much time to read and reflect. anyway, your wisdom to karen was excellent for me as well. i needed to hear about thin places. i am definitely in a thin place right now. but i know God is here, even though i find it hard to see Him at the moment.
i know you get tons of comments, and you probably dont read them all, but in case you do, what do you think about the response of the “orthodox” church to the emerging church? more specifically, i am currently enrolled in covenant seminary (pca), which is traditionally “orthodox”. but i am seeing a lot of changing environment at least at covenant, which is the only reason i even decided to go to covenant. as far as wanting to be in the macroplan of God, i hear ya, i really desire to bring reformation to the church. i see so much potential and so much waste. but you are right that i must focus on reaching my neighbor.
shalom
peter

MacLaren…
Since we have now veered a bit from the original topic I want to say that I think there are many, many ancient and modern authors from all denominational traditions who can address intellectual doubts, emotional doubts, and dark nights of the soul better than MacLaren. Although Craig’s original statement (#14) was quite insensitive given the circumstances of the original letter I do think that MacLaren’s “Generous Orthodoxy” could be a confusing book for some Christians. My experience in reading that book is that he has a tendency to write with a flair while he criticizes those he disagrees with, but he doesn’t always deal with real ideas in a biblical truthful manner. He just strikes me as someone who had some disappointing bitter legalistic church experiences in his past, and now wants all of us to join him in his sour attitude. So, it would certainly not be the first or last book I would recommend to someone.

(#23) R.T. -
Thank you for your comment. I read the original post and the first 11 comments this morning and felt bothered by the responses. Karen’s letter struck some major chords (or maybe they’re minor chords) with me, and once those feelings had been raised, the tack of the comments were not satisfying me. Then I read yours, particularly the part about feeling like you have more in common with unbelievers than with believers. That is so precisely the case, with me at least – I don’t know about Karen.
“All our faith is permeated with doubt” and sometimes I couldn’t name you a single thing about Christianity that doesn’t have some aspect of it in doubt to me, “but all our doubt is permeated with faith.” I overlook that view sometimes.
Thank you.

RSJ (#36),
You said just what I wanted to say Phil…thank you. It is the people who will never face their doubts who have the worst of it.
And so, in a sense, Karen, you have been dealt what C.S. Lewis coined “a severe mercy”–as severe as the early departure from your internship and the ensuing turmoil, but as merciful as an early opportunity in life to face your fears and let the Holy Spirit guide you toward the next phase of the journey. You would probably be surprised by the number of people who make it to mid-life (or beyond) without doing the hard work you find set before you.
Persevere….

Scot, and also to “Karen”,
With all the words here I am somewhat hesitant to add to them, but I want to offer only this, faith is not certainty and it is not static. God is always somewhat elusive in our grasp, but he is presence and faithful to us. Faith is not doctrines, it is the dynamic of relationship and the ebbs and flows. Scot is right face God and talk to God, he is not surprised or annoyed. Faith is not certainty
Yup Church can be goofy and what we do is often contrary to spiritual health, but I always wonder if it is not always going to be goofy until Jesus calls a halt to the whole thing. We will disappoint at times and we will be hypocritcial at times and we will fail at times. But not all the time. It has always been this way.
Take you time, ask the questions, and as Scot says share your journey with another. Let us know how it goes.
Well I guess I did add more than a few words to this coversation. Professional hazard apparently.

Karen’s letter is a very important one. Because it raises a very basic question that all of us face: How do I gain certainty about something?
This is a very human question, not merely a Christian one. Because what it reflects is a seriousness about confronting what stands before me, whether it is a person, a job, an event, my doubts, my desires.
But I think we can honestly say that many of us haven’t thought about this question a great deal. Our culture has, at least when it comes to matters of science. In a distorted way, too, with many concluding it may not even be possible outside of science. But if that is the case, then Karen’s response is not just an honest one, but the right one.
How do I gain certainty about Christ? This is an important question. One that we all should be thinking about. Karen’s situtation is all too familiar to me. In more ways than just about whether I believe in God. (Although that is something I am actually quite certain of and have been for a while). What does God want from me? Is this the right job? Etc. My point is simply to demonstrate how common my state of “confusion” is, yet one thing endures: my desire to not lose myself. My desire to be whatever I am meant to be. My desire to be fulfilled.
The path that’s been suggested to me in the past three years is to take seriously my experience. That if I (with others) reflect on it honestly, I’ll begin to discover the path. For example, what does it mean to recognize that I did not create myself? That I do not give myself life? These questions can certainly be entertained in an intellectualized philosophical way, and I’m not suggesting doing that. Instead, they can be taken as a serious reflection on ourselves — one filled with sympathy for our condition — that can be transformative. A friend commented that to recognize that I didn’t create myself is to recognize that there is an Other, which is to say that within me, my “I”, there’s the root of a companionship.
None of that is a “solution” for Karen. There’s no substitute for living and dealing with our lives. But I would assure Karen that those who take their lives seriously (like she certainly are doing), while they can feel powerless in front of that, they are not alone. Because all of us who have experienced some of what Karen’s talking about recognize the universality, the human-ness, of that condition and thus that it is a starting point for our communion. Not that we can fix one another, but that precisely that together we recognize that we can’t.
I can’t picture a more honest starting place for prayer, which is nothing more than a recognition of our need and a begging for it to be answered.

Indeed, Karen, my prayers, when I remember to pray them, are with and for you. I’ve been there, in my questioning God, the Church, and “What the (expletive deleted) is the point of all this, anyway?” Those are the toughest questions you’ll find in your life, bar none.
I just had a line from a David Crowder Band song pop into my head: “So courageous until now/Fumbling and scared/So afraid You’ll find me out/Alone here with my doubt (from “A Beautiful Collision). His (Crowder’s) music (as well as a lot of Intelligentsia coffee and good, honest conversation) helped me out of a long dark period of my life where I had walked away from the church, and tried to walk away from God. I reccmmend all three things to you (substitue any brand of coffee you want, though). God is still speaking to you, and I believe His words are words of love, grace and welcome. He understands your struggles, and wants to love you in and through them. Here’s cheering you on!

RJS (#37)
I totally agree with you about drawing a distinction between “facing” doubt and uncertainty on the one hand, and in “embracing” them on the other. The issue underlying my question is, however, that it is becoming popular in certain circles to speak of “embracing” doubt and uncertainty, and I’m wondering how helpful that may or may not be.

Dear Karen,
Is it as least possible, that for the first time in your life you have maybe realised you have outgrown religion? Something I have noticed over the years is that certain individuals who are very enquiring and begin to really study the texts in detail, begin at first to drift to agnosticism and sometimes even further than that.
This seems a scary place, particularly at first and particularly if your existing social network is church related. I think some people outgrow religion, there is a lot of precedence.
I putting this “out there” as I expect no one else might be game to.
Ivan

Ivan,
Where are you coming from? Do you mean “outgrowing religion” as in moving past it to atheism? Or “outgrowing religion” as in moving past common forms or childhood forms of it to a highly individualistic version of it that no formal religion might claim? Do you see growing past religion as a good thing, a bad thing, just a thing which happens and is neither good nor bad…?
To Jack (#43):
Actually, even science doesn’t claim to know things with 100% certainty. Science uses “working models” and gains what it can from them. It’s not a way to gain positive certainty, only negative certainty (hence, falsifiability being the key concept behind anything “scientific”).
So what would you do if you really couldn’t know anything for certain? Especially if you’d been trained to accept as true only those things that are provably certain?

Ivan (#46), are you the same Ivan we engaged with toward the end of the June 13 “Letters to Emerging Christians” thread?

“Something I have noticed over the years is that certain individuals who are very enquiring and begin to really study the texts in detail, begin at first to drift to agnosticism and sometimes even further than that.”
“I think some people outgrow religion, there is a lot of precedence.”
Ivan,
This may be your experience, but as a general summation of reality it just doesn’t add up. To take just one example, Scot is a scholar who has dedicated his life to investigating the text in detail, yet he hasn’t drifted into agnosticism or beyond. The claim that some people “outgrow” religion comes off as automatically condescending by suggesting that everyone who retains some kind of religious belief is somehow less mature than those who give it up. I find that to be a rather question begging assumption that doesn’t fit with the evidence at all.

wow. i have been so touched to read through all of the comments regarding my e-mail to Scot.
for the record, i love brian mclaren. i’ve met him and he is one of the warmest, kindest men i have been around. his books served as catalysts for me to finally own my questions and doubts and to also realize others were paving the way for me, so to speak.
i feel as if i have sort of embraced the path of doubt and uncertainty and i appreciated with RJS had to say; that it must be faced rather than surrendered to… i have always been the type of person to dig and study and wrestle but this time around i just have given up and don’t even know where to begin. now- to figure out what the journey of this will look like… to try and face God… i just don’t know. the thought makes me feel far more vulnerable than i have in a long time.

Jen,
I kind of meant both actually. I am not advocating this option as one that should be chosen, rather that it is something never said, and I thought maybe sometimes it ought to..
Ivan

Hey Gordon,
I didn’t mean that this applied to everyone, clearly it does not. I had just noticed it a lot recently, in various things I have read about textual critics. Some people find the shoe doesn’t fit anymore, and generally, I think we are scared to face this. I just wanted to bring it up was all. My apologies if you thought it condescending, it wasn’t meant that way.
Ivan

Vunerable is Good Karen. Excellent catylist for the mind on that search for truth. Don’t be afraid. Be open to everything. Every idea.
Ivan

Jen on note to Jack.. you know this is technically true, but only technically. You have flown in a jet before? This is knowing based on physics and maths. Works pretty well doesn’t it? Science really does give us our best chance in the physical world in regard to knowing stuff. Its why we have the lifespan we do now, and 2000 years ago the lifespan they had then. Science works for most people really well.

good advice. I have been in the same place, as have most of my children, who were preacher’s kids. Here are the words of Jesus that most encourage me:
Matthew 11: 28-30
“Are you tired? Worn out? Burned out on religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you’ll recover your life. I’ll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me—watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won’t lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company with me and you’ll learn to live freely and lightly.”

Ivan,
I didn’t hear it as condescending, although it had the potential for that depending on who was hearing it.
I’m more curious as to why you think it should be said. Because facing reality is therapeutic? Because being aware of dangers is the first prerequisite for successfully avoiding them? Usually when people highlight an option that’s getting passed over, they’re either trying to warn people against it or they’re in favor of it being chosen.
The reason I asked about your meaning is because there’s echoes of a “beyond religion” sense in your wording – which could be a “religion is a crutch for the intellectually crippled or timid” type of beyond, or a “religion is a structure for the spiritually immature” type of beyond.
For those that do outgrow religion, where do you see them settling? Where would you recommend that they aim for?
Karen -
I usually prefer to put thoughts in my own words rather than quoting others, but there is a song that’s meant a lot to me when I don’t know where I am. It’s by Michael W. Smith.
Yes, I know your name,
every prayer you’ve prayed
I’m the One who brought you to this place
the Voice who sings to you,
the Hand that clings to you
oh My child, I’ve always known your name.
I don’t know how our choices and His sovereignty intertwine. But Israel didn’t get lost in the desert, she got taken there, and you’re not lost here, you’re here on purpose.

Ivan on #54:
My point exactly. It’s experientially true. It works. But it’s not certain. Science gives us a very good chance to know as best we can. I was responding to Jack’s portrayal of science as giving us the only way to know “for certain.” It’s the way we’ve been trained to think, but it doesn’t give us “for certain”s. And the same limitations that apply in science to our certainty apply anywhere else. We cannot know perfectly: scientifically, logically, religiously, or otherwise.
The reason that is important to note is because if someone thinks they have the option between “knowing for certain” and going with a science-based approach to life, or “believing for certain” and going with a faith-based approach to life, science is given a false rhetorical advantage. It’s not about faith vs. reason. We all use reason on our faith and faith in our reasoning, and there is no 100% certainty, just a mixture of experience and trust.

Jen,
Yes, I understand what you are saying about the limits to the scientific method. I hope I didn’t imply that I disagreed with that. My point was simply our culture doesn’t live with a recognition of those limits and actually, the power of what science is able to unlock for us, has led many to the temptation to think it is the only method for gaining certainty. Which I see as a real danger. Because there is so clearly limits to what science can examine.
I think the challenge I’ve found for myself is that it can be easy to see certainty as like a light switch. It is something that’s on or off. But that’s not my experience of it. It’s something that develops and grows, strengthens. To give an example of what I mean about thinking from experience, for example, consider the phrase, “Lord I belief, help me in my unbelief”. That passage long baffled me. I couldn’t get my hands around it and verify what it meant or its truth. It seemed like a paradox. But after reflecting on my own experience in my life about how I achieve certainty about certain things, it made great sense.
The slight caution I was wanting to throw into the mix by my mention of certainty is simply to say, don’t dismiss that desire. I think it is one that is inherent to the nature of our being, one that is truly “given” and thus, you won’t be successful in dismissing it. It’s kind of like, to me, denying that I have a desire for happiness. I can say that I don’t rely all I want, or that thing x fulfills that desire, but sooner or later the truth will shine through. I won’t be able to numb myself to the desire and it will make itself apparent again or if I’ve convinced myself that it’s been met by some object, sooner or later the limits of that object’s ability to meet that desire will become obvious.
Akin to RJS comment really about facing versus embracing doubt.
My only further point is that I really think many of us struggle with what it means to face this desire for certainty and where we can find it. We’ve been taught very particular things about what is reason/reasonable and many of us have been taught that experience is really preference, that it’s all subjective and that there’s nothing objective within there. But to deny the possibility of certainty is in some sense to deny the possibility that there is an answer to the longing of my heart or that I will be capable of recognizing it. And we can tend to think of these desires as something that are eliminated when they are met, so we can think of certainty as this moment, once achieved, life coasts. But I simply don’t think that’s correct, however often I find myself thinking and living that way.
Okay, I’m getting a tad off track or losing my train of thought, so I’ll stop.

Mumbled typing. “I don’t rely all I want” should be “I don’t really want that”.
Jen, we were typing simultaneously, but I agree with you about science’s limits. My comment is that our culture tends to promote the notion that science is the only way to certainty, but that that’s a false notion.

Jen,
I am not strong on philosophy. I’m an old dude. But I don’t think we need absolute certainty to get through life. When I look at science, whilst it does change, it provides a sense of certainty that is reliable enough for human use. I don’t know of other branches of knowing that give us that kind of advantage. I think I am a poor at explaining my thoughts. Sorry!
regards
Ivan

Jen,
(56) I am not sure I am really all that qualified to say, in all honesty. I also certainly don’t wish the comments as any kind of slur against being Christian or Christian levels of intelligence. I can only speak from my perspective and I am still deep into the waters of working things out. I think Christianity isn’t for everyone. I don’t think Islamic faith or any really, can’t be used as a cardboard template for every individual. Jesus may provide you with great comfort but it may not for all people. It could be in an individuals interest to go through a stage of atheists or agnosticism in order to really work things out. I think its harder and of less quality to have people constantly working from inside, this to me really has more in common with a process we would normally call indoctrination.
In my own experience, I have cast a really wide net. I read extensively from both sides of the spectrum and I also felt rigorously compelled to understand and be able to apply the science to my thinking. It saddens me to see many well meaning and decent people misrepresent the truth of science because they feel they are betraying God. To me, that is living in a kind of denial. I have spent countless hours in my life trying to help people see the science and have a reasonably correct platform to understand how the supernatural part of faith either plays a part or doesn’t.
I thought, and I didn’t know Karen from a “bar of soap” mind you, that she should search far and wide for her answers and not be afraid of following any information path. This will include the Christian but it has to include other information also. If I knew her well, I would have recommended some books.
I don’t see religion as a crutch for the intellectually crippled, not at all. I do see it has extreme limitations intellectually and I think there is a reason for this. However unfortunately you view it, there are people that outgrow it, and its a reason that historically, Christianity, as most religions do, appeal to the more lowly educated. Before you lob a grenade, there are zillions of highly educated Christians in the world also. Many on this site, but its a difficult proposition to accept fully, as we are encouraged to do so, and also remain blind to the factual underpinnings of life.

Jack,
when you said : Which I see as a real danger. Because there is so clearly limits to what science can examine.
What did you mean? How would scientific enquiry be dangerous as such? I don’t know if I would see science in anywhere as limited as you may, but by what other mechanism would you suggest could be used?
Some 2000 or so years ago, a crop failure might be devastating to society, as my country now suffers a problem with drought. In those times, people will look to God and see a punishment being wrought over some lapse of morals. A modern day approach might find the soil deficient in nitrogen or some problem with acidity. We will attack the drought not effectively with a prayer, but more effectively with a well constructed dam, drip irrigation possibly even desalination.
To my thinking, for the most part science comes up with answers that move us along. I don’t see how we can or should ignore that?
I don’t think we should be afraid of science because of what it exposes of the natural world. Its kind of there whether we choose to see it or not.

Joseph,
That is one lovely quote!

Fair enough Ivan (#52). Thanks for clarifying.

Ivan, I might get where you’re coming from more than most people who have replied to Karen (my comment to her is #11)
In your comment #62 you say “I don’t think we should be afraid of science” – absolutely. I would go further and say I don’t think we should be afraid of our doubts, of doing research, of reading widely.
Like I said in an earlier comment, being afraid implies that God if he exists is incapable of getting people where he wants to in their thinking.
To me that is one of the fundamental inconsistencies of the belief systems of lots of Christians. They say they believe in a very powerful God yet, if they did why would they be so afraid that reading widely or science could destroy peoples’ faith? Why couldn’t they be happy that Karen is asking great questions and committed to renouncing everything phony?
Karen, I’ve noticed that lots of people are struck by Brian’s kindness. To me he seems kinder than some of his critics who claim to have ‘better’ theology than he does. If kindness is an essential characteristic of God (the Bible says it is) then that makes me think Brian is more like God than some of his critics. And so, to me, that means he is more qualified to point the way than they are.
The Pharisees focused on being right (based on their definition of it) and didn’t seem to care about being kind (according to the Bible). And Jesus wasn’t impressed. Last year at our Off The Map conference Brian McLaren said “If you’re not kind, you’re not right”. I agree.
I like it best when Christians don’t write off the Pharisees as unbelievers therefore not doing anything Christians are in danger of doing – but rather, say, hey we need to be careful lest we end up like them. Correct but mean, keeping people out of heaven rather than busting down the gates of hell and emptying it out.

Karen,
I would venture to guess that I am among the more widely read and highly educated commenting here. There was a time, when I was in college, then graduate school (UC Berkeley), when I thought perhaps Ivan is right – Christianity is something we outgrow, something that is anti-intellectual and requires holding to indefensible positions. But for a variety of reasons that is not where I find myself some 20+ years later. I find myself thoroughly committed to a local church – while realizing that nothing about it is perfect or ideal. I find myself participating in communal worship without much care about details of form or style, fully realizing that nothing and no community is perfect – because communal worship is one of the key ways we participate in the communion of saints – past, present, and future. I find myself participating in conversations like this – in my “free” time. I find myself still reading widely and critically. I find myself defending and following, imperfectly I am sure, the thread of orthodox Christianity that has continued unbroken for two thousand years. Each era and each institution has contributed insights and has made grave mistakes.

Helen,
I like this quote: “If you’re not kind, you’re not right,” though I would nuance it a bit. I would say that you may be factually right, but your lack of kindness negates any credibility you may have and leads to plausible denial of your claim. I know that, for myself, one of the things that frequently influences my perception and reception of certain perspectives is the tone and rhetoric of their adherents. There are some views that I find it really hard to listen to with any kind of objectivity because their adherents turn me off so much.
I

Ivan:
I wade in uncomfortably, because I’ve seen where the discussion with you tends to go based on the comments of others.
But to be clear — I never said there’s anything dangerous to scientific inquiry. Not at all. I don’t deny any of the value that science has brought. I do think there is an incredible danger to thinking that the scientific method is the only means by which knowledge is obtained or certainty can be gained. One need only reflect on the vast number of ordinary experiences of life that don’t lend themselves to this method of study. We don’t come to know that someone loves us, for example, because we’ve done a scientific experiment. Even the very basis on which we non-scientists, who haven’t personally verified the experimental results of scientists but yet rightly have trust in many of their results come to have that trust by means other than the scientific method.
But yet, it is quite common for their to be a mentality that science is the only “certain” knowledge and everything else is illusion. And that’s a distortion and, in my view, the distortion at some point rears its ugly head in the lives of those who try to live it. Yes, there’s been great progress that has resulted from science. And I embrace that. But there’s so much of the human experience that science hasn’t made a dent in. Think of all the great, deep questions of the ages and how they still are those questions. Science hasn’t been able to vanquish them.
So while you talk about how science has helped grow a better crop, I’m talking about the needs of the human heart. And there, I think science shows its limits. A friend often says that the method to come to know something is determined by the object. There’s no one method for knowledge, but a plethora of them, each suited to different types of knowledge, and science is not well-suited for understanding the human condition.
I understand where you are coming from, Ivan. I do. I’ve got plenty of friends in those positions. But having seen the whole spectrum of “education”, I can most assuredly say that religion does not appeal to just the lowly educated. But the danger is that what passes for religion in most places is ideology and schema. It can be little different than the ideology of scientism, etc.
My proposition is quite different. My proposition is to take seriously the demand to stand before the real. And to seek the reasonable, meaning what accounts for all the factors. And this means, frankly, rebuilding from the ground up about my own experience of humanity and seeing where it points. I’d argue that Christianity has nothing to fear from that at all. And in fact, it is the only thing that responds adequately to that whole enquiry. Because Christianity in the end is a Person and is about the Infinite coming to us.

jack, i appreciate your thoughts greatly, especially your last comment. i recall from college when studying a little bit about kierkegaard and the concept of faith that perhaps some of the uncertainties i have point even more to the reality of God than i may realize at the moment, if that even makes sense.

I will wade in, also uncomfortably, to say that there are some dangers to be considered in scientific “advances.” Some of the “newfangled” GMO foods may be more “efficient” to produce, but that doesn’t always translate to them being more “effective” in terms of actual nutrition…or in terms of whether they are actually unhealthy!
“Processed foods” and (in some circles) even microwaves and pressure-cookers are being rethought and rejected. Then there’s the trans-fat, low-fat, soy-as-miracle-protein, yada, yada…the list is getting very long…this without even talking about pharmacuticals…much less chemical (and other kinds) weapons.
Science can be quite dangerous, it seems to me!
Now, that is not to say that “science” is bad…no, no! But for those who “worship” at the “idol” of science, there can be many significant consequences–for them and for us, as well!
The point is that we have to be careful to whom we abdicate our responsibily for the choices we make. We have to consider carefully whom we will trust.
And this takes lots of work asking questions…doubt!

What I find fascinating about a Christian’s struggle with God is that often times other Christians come along and, like Job’s well-intentioned companions, dispense their Biblical and orthodox wisdom in hopes of returing the prodigal back to a correct understanding of God. And what’s even more interesting is that God’s own response to Job wasn’t about theology or a “relationship with God.” It sounded more like, “Consider the behemoth…” or something about the morning stars singing together while all the angels shout for joy.
Karen, my prayer for you is a dislocated hip.

Cody…you’re, of course, wishing Karen a successful wrestling match with God, like Jacob…right?

Jack (#59):
“our culture tends to promote the notion that science is the only way to certainty, but that’s a false notion.”
Agreed. Rings bells of a paper I just had to write wherein pseudoscience and true critical analysis were contrasted. But I would definitely draw a distinction between the scientific method and the psychological assurance people get from trusting one method or another to be infallible. And I also wouldn’t blame scientists for this confusion. People crave simple answers to all their questions – and they’re not satisfied with no answers, and they don’t want complicated answers. So there’s true science and popular science and a little learning is a dangerous thing. Drink deeply, or taste not the Pierian spring.
All men desire to know. ‘S a blessing and a curse. We’re afraid of not knowing and we’re afraid of knowing too much. You dip into Kierkegaard and Hume and Nietzsche and it scares you… but you can’t leave it half-introduced. Then all you’ll have is the questions and a horror of what else is there. Imaginations create bigger monsters than reality does.
Ivan, sociology does bear out the claim of Christianity appealing to the uneducated, at least according to the research I saw. And that was specifically that the Baptist denomination has a hugely disproportionate amount of poorer, less-educated, white adherents than any other denomination – and also holds to the strictest, most conservative interpretations. But then, religion and intellectualism have always been uneasy bedfellows.
Still, the intellectuals who do wander outside the Baptist faith aren’t necessarily wandering outside the Christian faith. Christianity is much broader than the stereotypical fundamental evangelical congregation. I would beware of making any statements regarding Christianity as a whole in its appeal to intellectuals vs. non-intellectuals. There are a great many Christians other Christians would disown for many reasons, but abandoning a dear doctrine of one denomination doesn’t cast you into outer darkness. Breaking ties with a local congregation is painful and frightening, but it does NOT mean, ipso facto, you’ve broken ties with the entire historical stream of Christianity.

I read a book when I was in college called “Why Should Anyone Believe Anything At All” by a guy named James W. Sire that really helped me get to a place intelectually where I could let my spirit experience God in an “Earthy” way. I would tell her to read this book…

Under The Grace » Freedom

[...] You might enjoy Scott McKnight’s thoughtful response to the doubtful questions of one of Christ’s lambs. My heart was warmed by reading it. Come back and read my thoughts when you’re done. [...]

Helen! a Kindred soul!! I wouldn;t have believed it.
Ivan

Hey RJS,
I meant that it applies to some types of people and its just a personal view. Your situation might be somewhat different as is for some people, particularly I noticed those that have strongly reinforced social networks built around the Church. If you didn’t have that.. maybe path 2 is a better idea? I don’t know exactly to me its an individual thing.

Hey Jack,
I think I am with you some of the way. Probably I disagree with you in regards to the value of science verses the value of other information gathering systems. Science can tell us a lot about love, it tells us we don’t really feel it in the heart but up top in the brain and we feel “love” for very good biological reasons. I wouldn’t want to write off your other sources, only make the point that science is a great tool and a very honest one. It changes because its at least updatable. I also see it tackling the really big questions successfully, even if “final” answers are not available at this early stage. I suspect its at least possible they will be at some point in time.

Peggy at 70
Science can be used questionably yes. But I don’t know anybody who worships it and/or uses it as an idol.
Opinions change regarding technology and GM foods. But I don’t know if you noticed this Peggy, but we have a world population I think approaching 5 billion or so people. Unless you know someone that can do the loaves and fishes thing for real, science is our *only* way of feeding our children. I wouldn’t be discounting its value too much.

Jen,
73.
I was going way,way back with this comment. But it has some truth today in a broad brush fashion. I do grasp your point though.

Ivan,
Yes, but let’s be clear about what science is telling you there. It’s telling you about the biological dimension of love — what happens biologically when you are in love.
It does you little good in actually making a judgement about whether you are in love or why you might love or need love. Can you imagine a scenario where we determine whether we love someone by checking whether we are experiencing the biological indicators of love? I cannot. That’s not what I do. I don’t think that’s what anyone does.
And so it is in that dimension of the human experience that I am suggesting science falls short. Now, again, I suggest the question is this: well, what method allows me to gain a certainty about these things of human experience? There must be something, because otherwise, what’s being posited is that most of what we do is based on just conjecture, habit, or the illusion of any certainty.
This is not to suggest that we don’t make wrong judgments. I mean, who hasn’t realized at some point that what they thought they wanted or understood, and became the basis for some action, was really all wrong. Got that job that paid all the more money, but then realized that more money wasn’t really the answer. And it is to this that I am proposing that we have been given a gift in our experience, what I have called the “heart”, that can help us if we pay attention. Now, when I use the word “heart”, I’m talking about something more than just feelings. I am talking about the core of me, my “I”. That’s why I mentioned the need for happiness. (Or one could look at justice or a number of other things.) Yes, there’s certainly a feeling involved there, of the emotions that may be associated with happiness and unhappiness. But there’s more, too. I think, if I am honest with myself, I will recognize that I desire to be happy and that this is a desire that is a given in my life, not something I manufacture. And similarly, whether something meets this desire, corresponds to it, I don’t manufacture that either. It corresponds or it doesn’t. No doubt, we make mistakes in dealing with these “givens” of who we are. We might, out of frustration with the fact that they haven’t been met, try to dismiss them, deny their existence. Or we might imagine how we would like them met and convince ourselves that they have been, when they haven’t. I’ve given the example of finding a pair of shoes that fit. In a fundamental dimension the criterion for determining whether my shoes fit well is given to me, not something of my own creation. I don’t care how much I might like their style or the price, if they don’t fit, they don’t fit. Now, I might buy them anyway and try to convince myself that they will do, but that’s a self-deception and one that I will be confronted with once the blisters and pain from the poor fit starts to emerge.
My point in suggesting all this is to say, despite its difficulties and our capacity for error in applying our judgment, there is an inherent objectivity to our subjective experience that can be of a great help to us in our living.
And look, we all know this on some level. Think through how you came to know of your mother’s love or that a business colleague is trustworthy or a host of other things and tell me if the scientific method doesn’t fall flat in explaining how you arrived at these moral certainties and judgments.
And like science, it does update. Because life is dynamic and what we are making judgments about are not static things, but dynamic situations and people. Of course, it’s on us to do the hard work of continuing to live and judge this way, versus to stop and settle for some schema.
My final point is that to confront life in this way, which I think you would acknowledge Ivan is a serious effort to stand before what’s in front of us, in no way denies what science opens up to us. But it also goes well beyond that. And I do not fear that a life taken with this seriousness of examination will find its answer ultimately in Christ.

That last sentence of mine should have read “And I do not fear that a life taken with this seriousness of examination won’t find its answer ultimately in Christ.” In other words, I see no conflict between Christianity and this type of examination of things. If Christianity cannot bear up to the test of reasonableness, my we are in trouble. But we need to be very careful that we aren’t defining what is reasonable in a way that a priori excludes some of the factors of our experience, in a way that says that can’t possibly be reasonable because method X can’t explain it. No, the problem might be that method X is the wrong method.
I also know that this way of approaching the faith is different than what most of us have been taught. Notice I haven’t once really talked about reading the bible, etc. No, we are a long way away from the event of Christ. We’re talking about essentially the pre-kergyma. An examination of our experience that I think leads to the conclusion that revelation is reasonable. It’s a whole other story once the Incarnation happens on how to verify the reality of that Incarnation. Here we are just talking about being open to the possibility.
I suggest it because I think it has stronger legs for us to stand on. And for those who need a biblical basis to see the possibility of this, I think it is in there. Consider John 1:35 and on, the encounter of Andrew and John with Jesus. What does Jesus ask them? Essentially, what do you desire? It’s a fascinating passage and question because it is so open. It is so trusting that they are equipped within their nature to discern these things. That their “heart” (as I’m using the term)would point to Him. (And it of course does, even in the passage — “Where are YOU staying, Rabbi?”.)
Sorry Scot for the length. I actually think this has been a very good dialogue, Ivan.

My apologies, for one final comment. A couple of people mentioned they didn’t like where the conversation was leading, I hoped my comments were not leading anywhere nasty.
I see us all with different knowledge and life experiences when it comes to the big complicated subjects, such as religion. I don’t have any special knowledge and I sure as dickens have not been as widely read as many of you and particularly Scot. But I would wager I may have read some odd and different things and these might have value in a conversation with someone who is an emerging Christian.
I like the idea of bigger picture thinking, and by this sometimes I feel some people could be better served looking in from a further point out. I notice a lot, that Christians try and fix things in-house so to speak, and I thought some might be better served with wider perspective which some might be looked at as decidedly non Christian.
It sounds a weird approach but it possible it could be make the whole shebang more profound (either way)
reading more of the original post, maybe its not the way for Karen.
I was meaning it kindly also.

Jack 81.
yes Jack. Its darn interesting isn’t it?
Kind regards
Ivan

Ivan (79),
Well, I guess it comes down to what one means by “worship” and “idol” — and your definition will be different from mine. Which is where so much of this discussion hangs.
Of course I know about world hunger problems…and there are those who would say the problems are as much, if not more, political than scientific. And much of that has to do with people’s opinions about what is a proper diet…I am sure you won’t be surprised that my opinions vary from what many accept as normative for proper diet
But here’s my context: when science is given God’s place as ultimate provider, it too often allows humans to let go of their honest responsibility to act as good stewards of the earth’s resources for everyone’s best interest. Whatever man messes us, it is believed, science will find the answer for. People don’t have to worry about the effect of their choices, yada, yada…consumerism reigns.
I just don’t buy it as the meta-story. I believe that science is part of God’s meta-story. We differ philosophically, which sets up the division scientifically.
We’re going to have to agree to disagree while we continue the journey before us, friend. And that’s okay with me.

Peggy,
You and I are not as different as you might think. I agree with much of what you say.
But I am of the opinion, the bigger picture has science feeding us. It has done so for so long that we become kind of blind to it. But yes, we have to do many things on a personal level.
Science may well be part of Gods meta-story or maybe its not. Its an interesting journey finding out.
right off the subject Peggy, how does your diet ideas differ? Vegan?
I repeat the point, I have never seen a single case of science worship or idolatry. In any sense of these words.
It has always appeared to me to be quite the opposite.
regards
Ivan

Ivan, look for Sally Fallon’s book called Nourishing Traditions and you’ll get some of my drift….very NOT Vegan!
And the science worship may be more in the public place and not in the laboratory…but I think it’s in both to some degree. We all do see different things…that’s the value to this kind of forum!

Ivan – yes I am indeed a kindred soul!

what is the place of christianity that is an industrialized market-share? not in my heart, not in our faith.

Peggy,
If you ever see an example of this, point it out to me would you? The food thing goes straight to my old heart. I am not to vegan either.

What do you mean by that Charley?

Ivan, I’m guessing Charley is disillusioned and deeply disappointed with the American church for being so shallow, superficial, self-absorbed, materialistic, consumeristic.
(But I could be wrong)

ivan- i do appreciate your thoughts. i have seen faith, Christianity, etc in a very different way in the past several months as i have stepped away from leadership and involvment in the local church… and really any christian practices in general and do think its important to be able to look outside of “boxes and bubbles” and for so long i was afraid of what it would be like to do so. it seems as if God is a lot bigger than I had given Him credit for, yet I still find myself unable to reconcile so much of my past beliefs to where I am now, and so the journey continues.

Karen, I have held onto this: if God is decent and honest and knows my heart then it cannot be wrong in his eyes to be on a sincere quest for the truth.

Hey Karen,
Not knowing you, I was just dispensing a general kind of advice that I thought could be helpful. I am still working out where I am myself, but one of the conclusions reached so far, is things are way, way bigger than we think, specifically “boxed in” (searching for a better word) by the general concepts of religions like Christianity. I get the feeling we might be paying the ultimate disservice or insult looking at things in such a small and incorrect in some cases, way. I do hope you find what it is you require.
best regards
Ivan

Helen,
I could not agree more. Its no accident Humans have a rather unique intelligence and sense of enquiry.

Thanks Ivan.

Scot McKnight’s Category “Letters to Emerging Christians” « Kyrie Eleison

[...] http://www.jesuscreed.org/?p=2487   [...]

yeah, helen.. i am.
i am one of those people who has most of their MDIV and cant seem to get their head around the amazing fact that the more i understand christianity, the more i feel that that the modern evangelical church is a terribly unchristian place.
dont get me wrong- there are wonderful evangelical churches out there, and there are wonderful christian evangelicals out there. I just get the feeling that evangelicalism was doomed from the get-go, and that protestantism might be as well.
when, in protestantism, the church authority is minimized and the individuals authority is overblown, you have the same problems (but on a different end of the spectrum) that the reformers fought against.
it can be done right, id imagine. i just dont have the answers.

Hey Charley,
I don’t know a whole lot about this. Is it worth getting upset with an organization, that is in essence, just a bunch of guys getting together to form a kind of “club”. They no more represent man to God than Rotary.
Do you think a God would really care all that much about what is essentially, branding?
Isn’t it way.. waaaay more important what we think or do on a personal level?
regards
Ivan

Hi, Ivan, Glad to see you back!!!

charley, right…I volunteer with an organization started by people who feel the same way (I think), called Off The Map.

Sam,
I thought you were not allowed on here unless your tied to a crash cart?
Ivan

Karen,
I’m really glad that you decided to write to Scot about your dilemmas. His advice and lots of supportive stuff in these comments will keep you busy. My prayers are with you that you will find what God wants you to find. Fear nothing for we have not been given a Spirit of fear.
Ivan, I have been allowed limited access to a computer and am making the most of it by visiting my favourite blogs. I do have a comment up for you at Ktismatics…

I just know I am going to have to sugar coat everything now..
Good to see you up and around Sam.
Ivan