In Irenaeus' great studyDemonstration of the Apostolic Preaching
Is there any story of the Christian faith that can ignore these three articles? Trinitarian faith is the historic faith of the Church. Already in the 2d Century -- not fourth -- Irenaeus not only teaches a Trinity-shaped faith but assumes this is the only faith the Church knows.
The "order" begins with the "foundation": "God, the Father, uncreated, uncontainable, invisible, one God, the Creator of all" [6].
Second, "the Word of God, the Son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord ... revealed by the prophets ... "by whom all things were made" and "who, in the last times, to recapitulate all things, became a man amongst men, visible and palpable, in order to abolish death, to demonstrate life, and to effect communion between God and man.
Third, the Holy Spirit. What here? It was through the Spirit the prophets did their work, it was through the Spirit that the patriarchs learned, it was through the Spirit that the righteous were led, and who was poured out "in a new fashion upon the human race renewing man, throughout the world, to God" [6].
Therefore, [7] "the baptism of our regeneration takes place through these three articles." What does it do? "granting us regeneration unto God the Father through His Son by the Holy Spirit."
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A Logos is a revealer and a revelation, that is what it means. A revelation can not be its own revelation.
The Logos then is a revelation of the Father, I think scripture makes this pretty clear. As Paul says, making visible the invisible God. I don't think it is correct to say that in Titus 1:2 the Eternal Life is a separate pronoun. It seems to be stretching the text quite a bit.
As for divine heroes and miraculous births, they are all over Hebrew literature. Consider any of the second temple Jewish literature, whether it be the deuterocanonicals or the dead sea scrolls. The rabbi's later rejected these ideas as a "two powers heresy", but these ideas were firmly within the Judaism that Jesus and his followers were a part of. Just because they did not continue in later rabbinic theology doesn't make them hellenistic or Latin. The only instance of a "virgin birth" in Greek literature I can think of is when Zeus impregnates Daphne(?) with a shower of gold coins. This is quite a bit different from pregnancy from angelic proclamation, which was a common topos in second temple literature.
Vynette, your lens is heterodox.
I know you're familiar with the early fathers, please consider that the teaching of the Church, everywhere and at all times, is contrary to your beliefs. I pray that you draw some caution from it, and some humility. (That is not to say that you come across as proud or arrogant, by the way, but rather that you are elevating your own reason above the constant teaching of the Church, the right interpretation of the Scriptures.)
You are a smart lady. Too smart for me. And I hope and pray that you will reconsider your path.
Jim P., excuse my excessively liberal use of "Jesus Creeder." My point is that some people live as we ought to live, but do not share our faith. Perhaps calling Gandhi a Jesus Creeder was a step too far.
To answer your question, with my excessively liberal use of "Jesus Creeder," I would not have a problem applying it to anyone of any religion. But I think, as you make clear, that I'm playing too loose with the term. So I would happily withdraw it.
Sarah,
Every culture, including our own, has its fair share of literary "curiosities." The works of which you speak fall outside the mainstream of Jewish thought. After all, that is why we have a canon of the Old Testament and a canon of the New Testament and why I work from those canons. Issues of dating, Hellenistic influence, later Christian interpolations, provenance, and so on, surround these non-canonical works and really preclude any discussion outside the realms of the scholarly.
However, and more to the point, we can certainly resolve the question of whether or not the minds of the Hebrew disciples were influenced by Hellenistic thoughts and whether they regarded Jesus as "divine" - or not. We only have to open our New Testaments and turn to the Gospel of John:
When first joined by his disciples, Jesus was described by them as:
the Christ
he of whom Moses in the law and the prophets wrote
Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph
the son of God
the King of Israel
All these descriptions are contained within John Chapter 1 verses 40-50. As we can plainly see, the disciples believed that Jesus was the son of God while still acknowledging his human parentage.
As to your statement: "The only instance of a "virgin birth" in Greek literature I can think of is when Zeus impregnates Daphne(?) with a shower of gold coins..." I will leave to other students of Ancient History to evaluate.
However, this evaluation will require minimal effort - just a thorough reading of the First Apology of church father Justin Martyr, wherein he sets out to prove the similarities between Hellenistic thought and his own. For example, this former disciple of Plato wrote: "And if we even affirm that He was born of a virgin, accept this in common with what you accept of Perseus." (First Apology, XXII, Analogies to the sonship of Christ.)
I think Perseus is the resultant child of the "golden shower" from which Zeus gained access to on Danae's chamber that Sarah is talking about, so we still have only one literary example from hellenstic work to rely on (at this early stage). As to whether Perseus Conceptin required a sexual event between Zeus and Danae (and therefore negates the 'virgin status' of Danae) I do not know. I'm not sure if that helps at all.
It seems clear to me from Justin's Analogies that he is not writing to lay down a greek interpretation of scripture, but to argue the sensibility of the scripture to a Greek audience by using analogy from their own cultural tradition. However, I'm no classicist(?),so my word carries no weight ;)
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